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One-shot Vigilante Death Miller: You may Night Kill a player once per game. You flip Godfather on death
wut This will be interesting
\in
What do you mean by this though?
Each digit column will be totaled separately in base 10, then divided by 3
Do I exactly choose the role I want? Is it random or something?
If both Goons die and both Godfathers are alive, does that mean scum have 0 KP?
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Oh, it's "/in"? I don't know why I always post "\in" >_>
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If there is a vig shot and it fails, it could be he targeted someone jailed or he targeted a GF. If the Jailer didn't jail that player, he will know he's a GF, but maybe he thinks the vig is lying as well. So the vig and Jailer have to work together, or scum have to fakeclaim to feed the Jailer misinformation, or some other thing. Perhaps that's how it works?
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Yeah, I won't be active either tomorrow+some part of Sunday, or Sunday+some part of Monday, I don't know which though.
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Great, game started
Important! About vigs!
All vigs should claim
Why? Because of this:
- There are no roleblockers, therefore a claimed blue will be able to use his ability at night no matter what
- If said vig ever gets lynched, he will flip GF. If he doesn't claim at all, or claims vig right before getting lynched, then it will instill confusion about whether he was actually GF or not.
- If all vigs claim beforehand, we will KNOW that they will flip GF, so the confusion about their flip is removed.
- It will force the GFs to claim vig as well. Why? Because if all vigs claim, but then a vig claims that he shot someone, but that someone doesn't die, if the first player is confirmed vig, then the second player is CONFIRMED GODFATHER. If GFs want to avoid that situation, they will have to claim vig.
- If all vigs claim, since there isn't any roleblocker, they will be free to shoot anybody they want. If there is town consensus on who to shoot, said vigs could take that into account to shoot lurkers/scummy people of their choice at night. Even if vigs want to shoot anybody in particular, they don't need to hide that info since scum can't RB him, so they can just discuss with town about said player and he can say he will shoot him in advance.
- This previous arrangement with Town-Vigs will make is to that Jailkeepers DON'T jail those players that vigs said they would shoot. That way the JK's power isn't wasted (and could cause confusion if he succesfully saves a vig shot, but doesn't claim (i.e people will think the target is GF)). Also, since scum is less likely to shoot vig targets, it means that the JK has a smaller pool of players to choose from, and has a higher chance of saving a scum KP at night
- If a vig were to claim a target at night, and said target doesn't die, either the vig is a GF/Goon in disguise, or his target is GF. Meaning we have a confirmed scum in either of those 2, and can lynch either of them
- Vigilantes can shoot each other as well if they think there was a fake-claim. It follows just like a normal kill.
If one vig shoots another claimed vig, then if the vig was a real claim, he will flip GF. If he was Goon he will flip Goon, and if he was GF he won't flip (creating the same situation as above).
- If GF claims vig, then they can't shoot on their own. They either need to "No-Kill" 1 KP and claim it's theirs, while claiming that the scum KP got saved by a JK, or claim their target is GF. Both are bad for scum (they have to give info they wouldn't have wanted to give otherwise) and good for us if we use the information wisely.
- If scum are complacent (they don't fake-claim, or do so but don't make other plans, etc) then we'll have a small circle (or even 1) of town-vigs to our disposal and we can do whatever we want, and most likely obliterate scum (based on the previous points too)
So people, any thoughts about this? I think it's the optimal course of action. Imagine we have like 4 vig claims, then we can use them as we will, we can coordinate night shots without fear of a RBer, and we can use said night actions to determine the alignment of said vigs (we tell them who to shoot and see if the kill goes through or not, and who was his target, etc), and we can better coordinate shots as if they were lynches as well. We won't have a lone vig shooting someone random at night and him flipping town creating havoc. All vigs should discuss their targets and face scrutiny if their reasoning for shooting said target fails, etc.
I'm willing to discuss other factors, cons and pros of this, so feel free to contribute
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On April 21 2012 09:52 johnnywup wrote: I think the plan falls apart if there isn't either a vig or a tracker, which is why I brought up that it's possible we don't have a vig. And what stops mafia from claiming vig then killing? Tracker sees that they kill the person that they kill, but hey it's a misfire right? Possibly, then if we policy lynch failed vig shots we could possibly waste lynches killing townies. But we wouldn't know anyways. So I feel like the plan is flawed from that perspective.
If mafia claim vig, and claim to shoot a target, and then do so with their own KP, this can happen:
- The Goon claimed vig, and he uses his KP to shoot his claimed target: Then he wastes his other KP. If he was real vig, then there would be an additional KP, but in this case there isn't. In this case he HAS to claim that the target of scum's KP got Jailed, which can bring problems to him depending on the real JKs, for instance if there is no JK he's fucked).
In this case, a tracker on him will watch him visit his claimed target Also, in this case (if a tracker tracks him), they can't "shoot" someone, claim their shot failed and say his target was GF, because the tracker will instantly know it's bullshit.
- The GF claimed vig and he uses his KP to shoot his claimed target: Same as above, but only the Goon will use his KP. So if a tracker tracks him, he will know he didn't shoot his target and will know he's scum.
I guess this means that maybe the GF's won't fake-claim vig, and the Goons will instead? In that case, if we ever lynch him, he will flip Goon and we will know 100% that he was scum when he's lynched. If he was GF and we lynched him, since he would flip GF we wouldn't be 100% sure he was scum.
So to fake-claim, scum have to choose between: -Being protected from trackers, but not creating confusion if they ever get lynched, nor having to rely on JK's to claim their shots or -Creating confusion if they ever get lynched, but not relying on JK's to claim their shots, nor being protected from trackers.
The point is that they have to choose, they HAVE to do something. We will force them to react to our plans, and hopefully they fuck up their plans/fake-claims and we catch them easily.
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EBWOP:
So to fake-claim, scum have to choose between: -Being protected from trackers, but not creating confusion if they ever get lynched, and having to rely on JK's to claim their shots or -Creating confusion if they ever get lynched, but not relying on JK's to claim their shots, nor being protected from trackers.
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On April 21 2012 10:40 MidnightGladius wrote: Gonzaw, GFs don't have KP. I'm currently writing out a more detailed reply to your plan (I think it's a good idea), but I wanted to make that clear now.
I know, reread my post and I mention that.
This also means that if scum fake-claim Vig, they can't fake-claim JK nor tracker for instance. I think we will have a lot of more information depending on the claims, target claims, claims from other blues, etc. If we use logic accordingly, we will be able to catch scum much more easily than just using behaviour analysis.
HOWEVER:
Don't let the whole game be about the "blues" and the "plans" and shit. This is just a draft for what they should do and what info we could get, we still need to hunt scum and for that we need to analyse posts, votes and shit.
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On April 21 2012 10:37 Mementoss wrote: So just to clarify gonzaw are you saying vigs should claim day 1. Cause if thats so, all shots would need to go off night 1 or mafia would probably just take them all out, maybe they would leave them in to keep the GF flips confusing. It seems like it could be risky shooting into townies without a lot of information, on night 1. But you bring up a lot of good points.
If we want to make a "double-lynch" kind of thing, then yes we can tell some of them to shoot on N1 (or if it's just 1 claim, tell him who to shoot). But they can abstain from shooting as well, nothing tells them they SHOULD shoot on N1. However, those who don't should be put under scrutiny if they keep surviving the nights and never shooting.
On April 21 2012 10:43 Mementoss wrote: I think your messing up here Goon would never claim vig. He would need to claim hitting a godfather, then we lynch that person they come up not godfather and we half the mafia KP. Or he says jailkeeper saved the shot, then jailkeeper could counter claim. Or we could just kill the vig claimer right there.
Also GF does not have KP. He will need to claim hitting a GF, or jailkeeper. Then we do the same as above. I really see no reason to fake claim as mafia, unless its a special late game circumstance.
...yes, I said specifically those same things, why are you repeating what I said?
Remember what I said just now, THIS IS STILL A MAFIA GAME. If a Goon claims vig, claims he hit the GF, or something; then it's just additional info Is the guy who claimed vig very scummy? Then he's probably mafia. Is his target very scummy instead? Then his target is probably mafia. Trackers who tracked him, or JK's who did other things can use this information as well. But it's not something like "Oh, but if he claims he shot a GF, who do we lynch? Woes we are doomed!". We use the info, and lynch people using that info as incentive, we don't lynch people randomly just because of said claims.
Also, I'll repeat this for emphasis:
This will force scum to take action. This will force them to either claim vig or not. This will force them to claim targets at night, and fake reads on those targets so they are not put under scrutiny. It will force them to make wild plans to stay alive and not be found out. This also means that no GF can later claim vig right before getting lynched. If someone doesn't claim vig on D1, but claims later (on D3 for instance) then THEY ARE NOT VIGS. And again, scum are forced to do something, and forced to react based on plans from town means it's more likely they fuck up and we run them over.
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On April 21 2012 10:49 PaqMan wrote: I like Gonzaw's idea of the vig's claiming. Only problem with that is that Scum will have a list of vig's and won't have to do any sniping.. So now that I think about it, I don't really like that idea at all lol.
Town can't keep assuming things this game. It'll make an ass out of u and me. We don't know how many of what roles there are and continuous speculation isn't going to help at all.
Okay, so imagine scum start killing the claimed vigs then...
...This will mean that if scum fake-claimed vig before, they will be found out almost instantly (since they will be kept alive). ...This will mean that they will help us getting rid of "Flips GF when lynched" Millers.
Also, these are vigilantes, they are not Doctors/DTs/Trackers/etc. A Vigilante is not town's greatest asset. Even more considering vigs more oftenly shoot townies than scum, so scum basically hail town vigilantes these games.
Also, imagine we don't follow my plan. What happens if we lynch someone and he flips GF? Was he a vig that didn't claim or the real GF? What happens if someone is getting lynched and he claims vig? Do we lynch him or we don't lynch him because it's likely he will flip GF regardless of alignment? If we do and he does indeed flip GF, what do we do? Do you want to have that fear throughout the whole game?
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Okay, one more thing and I'll stop posting now (just want to get everything out in the open as soon as possible)
On April 21 2012 10:55 johnnywup wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 10:49 PaqMan wrote: I like Gonzaw's idea of the vig's claiming. Only problem with that is that Scum will have a list of vig's and won't have to do any sniping.. So now that I think about it, I don't really like that idea at all lol.
Town can't keep assuming things this game. It'll make an ass out of u and me. We don't know how many of what roles there are and continuous speculation isn't going to help at all. it's actually in scums best interest to keep millervigs alive, as they create so much confusion which is usually scums job. All scum would have to do is make sure the vigs are on the wrong track. So because of this VE's plan of killing all vig's isn't a bad idea. But no vig's would ever claim under it. I think the best course of action is lynching any vig claims the day after, if they miss their shot. Scum wouldn't ever claim if we make a rule out of that. Also this isn't continuous speculation, this is discussing the game. Don't like it? Too bad. It's not like we can avoid this topic. It's important to the game so we talk about it.
VE's plan is to kill all claimed vigs. This means that no real vig will claim, and no scum will fake-claim either.
So what happens if we lynch someone and he flips GF then? What info would you get in that case? He could be either vig or GF and we don't know since no vig or GF would have claimed (since they would have been instantly lynched).
Imagine it's LYLO, we are trying to lynch someone, and he claims vig. What do we do? Do we follow the "lynch all vigs" rule too? But if he is indeed vig we would lose, so what to do?
If we follow our plan, we will know beforehand that there are certain players whose flip won't tell us anything (the claimed vigs, assuming no Goons claim). We will know what to do with that, we can prepare. We can also use other claimed vigs to try and shoot him at night instead. The most important thing is that if vigs claim beforehand, there will be less chaos than if they claimed right before getting lynched, or they were lynched and flipped GF
And remember, if there's chaos scum can do whatever the hell they want. If someone claims vig right before being lynched the chaos created basically gives scum the reins to do what they want (either lynch that vig, or lynch someone else, or NL, etc)
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@VE: I'm assuming JK's aren't idiots.
If a claimed vig CLAIMS he will shoot player X, then no sane JK will jail either X nor the claimed vig. Also, no JK should jail claimed vigs, if they don't claim so before doing so.
I'll make a more thorough rebuttal once I get a shower
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WARNING, Big Post coming up, be sure to read all of it, or at least the end and the part between the red asterisks:
To VE:
On April 21 2012 11:04 VisceraEyes wrote: Scum start off with an information advantage. Any plan that involves giving information to scum (like, who all the vigs in the game are) is a net loss for town 100% of the time. I'll address your points individually, for ease of comprehension.
Scum already have the info of who is town and who is scum. Like someone else already stated, if we lynch a vig, he will flip GF, and we won't know if he's vig or GF, but scum will.
Also, you missed this post of mine: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=10#187 This plan isn't about "giving scum information", it's about: -Coordinating vig shots at night (if there are in this game) -Avoiding the chaos regarding the "Flips GF" Miller mechanic from vigs -Force scum to take action and claim or not. -Based on the logical statements concluded from actions and claims, use it to aid scumhunting and determining the alignment of players and their actions.
1) There are no roleblockers, therefore a claimed blue will be able to use his ability at night no matter what
This is untrue. A claimed blue will PROBABLY get to use his ability at night, but he'll fail if a JK jails him.
JKs won't jail claimed vigs, nor they will jail their targets. Why? Because they know that : -If he jails the real vig, the vig will be sure that his target is GF, even if his target wasn't. If his target was a townie, the JK just created 2 mislynches -If he jails his target, then again the vig will be sure his target is GF, even if he wasn't. Same situation as above.
If the JK is sure the vig claiming the shot is scum, then he has to either convince people he's scum and get him lynched, or Jail him and claim he jailed him right before the deadline. Any other scenario can backfire tremendously.
2) If said vig ever gets lynched, he will flip GF. If he doesn't claim at all, or claims vig right before getting lynched, then it will instill confusion about whether he was actually GF or not.
That confusion isn't alleviated by all vigs claiming. He's still going to flip GF whether he's a vig or a fake-claiming GF and him claiming isn't going to make that any easier to unravel (especially if either of the GFs claim vig too.)
Yes it is. If he claims vig, we will know that he will flip GF once he dies (or hopefully Goon, but that's actually good so I won't take it into account). So we are prepared to see the flip, and we are prepared to act accordingly.
If the vig doesn't claim, we will just have a GF flip, and we won't know what to do about it. Scum will know whether that was the GF or the vig, but we won't. Since we weren't prepared, we won't be able to analyse the previous voting successfully, considering scum already know the alignment of the flipped player but we don't. Most importantly, it means that all the work, analysis, speculation that we've done before his flip would be mostly useless. If we prepare, we won't take this into account and will focus on other things.
3) If all vigs claim beforehand, we will KNOW that they will flip GF, so the confusion about their flip is removed.
This doesn't say anything and is patently untrue - we're still not going to know if they're a fake-claiming GF or a vig. Claiming doesn't change this at all. Period.
Please tell me how NOT claiming would be better then. So KNOWING beforehand what a player will flip, is worse than not knowing at all?
4) It will force the GFs to claim vig as well. Why? Because if all vigs claim, but then a vig claims that he shot someone, but that someone doesn't die, if the first player is confirmed vig, then the second player is CONFIRMED GODFATHER. If GFs want to avoid that situation, they will have to claim vig.
This is also not true. If a vig claims a shot and the person doesn't die, then that person MIGHT be a Godfather, or that person MIGHT have been protected via jailing, or the VIG HIMSELF might have been roleblocked by jailing. You're making assumptions and labeling them as facts and they're all bad Gonzaw.
We just ruled out that said person would be protected by a JK, so he WILL be the Godfather.
5) If all vigs claim, since there isn't any roleblocker, they will be free to shoot anybody they want. If there is town consensus on who to shoot, said vigs could take that into account to shoot lurkers/scummy people of their choice at night. Even if vigs want to shoot anybody in particular, they don't need to hide that info since scum can't RB him, so they can just discuss with town about said player and he can say he will shoot him in advance.
Vigs are free to shoot anybody they want anyway and them all claiming has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. This isn't a point in favor of claiming, it's repeating information redundantly and padding your post. I'm almost done, I hope...
If vigs claim, they will say who they will shoot WAY before the night ends. This means that things like N1 from LI won't happen (ET randomly shooting michael out of nowhere, not knowing which vig shoot who, etc). It means that town can use the vig shot as a "double-lynch" of sorts. It means that the vig will have to discuss with town why he will shoot his target and not another one. The vig has the power to do whatever he wants in the end, but town will know about it and can analyse what to do as well depending on how the vig cooperates (it would be ideally if the real vigs would not be stubborn and take Town's opinion into account).
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6) This previous arrangement with Town-Vigs will make is to that Jailkeepers DON'T jail those players that vigs said they would shoot. That way the JK's power isn't wasted (and could cause confusion if he succesfully saves a vig shot, but doesn't claim (i.e people will think the target is GF)). Also, since scum is less likely to shoot vig targets, it means that the JK has a smaller pool of players to choose from, and has a higher chance of saving a scum KP at night
This is like, the only thing I can even make any sense of. If town agrees to a mass-vig-claim, then I'd have to agree that JK's keep their grubby hands off chosen vig targets. The only thing I don't agree with here is the bolded statement. It assumes that claimed vigs are all town (because if the claimed Vig is scum, scum will HAVE to shoot that vig target, no?) and only limits the pool of players to choose from if JKs agree with the notion of keeping their hands off vig targets (which I don't want to assume...too many assumptions.)
What? Okay, first of all You mention this:
If town agrees to a mass-vig-claim, then I'd have to agree that JK's keep their grubby hands off chosen vig targets
But you also say this:
This is untrue. A claimed blue will PROBABLY get to use his ability at night, but he'll fail if a JK jails him.
Again, you're discounting the possibility of a JK interfering. This is an untrue statement about the information we'd get from the flip (or lack of flip) skewed in favor of vigs claiming.
AGAIN WITH THE DISCOUNTING OF THE POSSIBILITY OF A JK
What? You agree that JKs should cooperate (you specifically say that they shouldn't jail the vig targets, but you imply that JKs should cooperate, meaning you imply that if JKs not jailing the claimed vigs is the best option, they should cooperate too), but then you discredit my plan because I "assume" that the JKs will cooperate?
Really? Contradiction much?
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9) If GF claims vig, then they can't shoot on their own. They either need to "No-Kill" 1 KP and claim it's theirs, while claiming that the scum KP got saved by a JK, or claim their target is GF. Both are bad for scum (they have to give info they wouldn't have wanted to give otherwise) and good for us if we use the information wisely.
I'm honestly not even sure what this point is trying to say. It's true that GFs can't kill to corroborate their story - but there's nothing preventing a GOON from fake-claiming vig, especially since they wouldn't have to worry about trackers. Also, scum aren't "giving us info" by lying about what happened - they're introducing WIFOM.
Way to miss my other posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=9#179
Yes they are giving us info. They are introducing logical statements into the game (as in "One of Player A and Player B is scum", or "If Player A is townie-vig, then the JK saved his target" or even their equivalent ones like "If no JK saved his target, then Player A is scum"). We take all those logical statements and use them, along normal analysis of players, to determine who is scum or not.
10) If scum are complacent (they don't fake-claim, or do so but don't make other plans, etc) then we'll have a small circle (or even 1) of town-vigs to our disposal and we can do whatever we want, and most likely obliterate scum (based on the previous points too)
Having a claimed 1-shot vig doesn't do anything to help us "obliterate scum". Even if only 1 town vig claims, how does that narrow anything down? Are we just automatically assuming the claim is good? Are we giving dude a pass? Why wouldn't scum fake-claim when you put it that way?
Yes it does. At that moment in time we won't know if he's scum or the real vig, but since he is in fact the real vig he will help town. We will use his shot as a "double-lynch" of sorts, hopefully hitting a Goon. It will also mean that all the points addressed before (there will be no chaos regarding a GF flip, etc) will apply, hindering scum even more.
To johhny:
On April 21 2012 11:43 johnnywup wrote: I agree with VE. We shouldn't reveal who's vig. 1) There's possible fakeclaims that really fuck us 2) There's realclaims we can't verify 3 and most importantly) Scum wouldn't want to kill the real vigs as it creates a lot of chaos, so if scum and vigs claim, they start killing people who are more likely a more useful power role (jk and tracker).
Overall, it puts us in a bad position. Sure we MAY be able to verify on their death, but that doesn't even help us much.
1)No, I already addressed that. If scum fake-claims, we will use our heads and logic to determine the alignment of the claimers. 2)Yes we can, that's why the JK/Tracker/GF mechanics are there. Even if we can't verify them, we will have logical connections made that will help us determine who is scum by plain old behavioral analysis 3)Scum may want to kill vigs or may not depending on their plans and state in the game. If they didn't fakeclaim, it's likely they will start shooting the vigs because the vigs will start to get confirmed soon, or there will be 1v1 situations with their GFs and such. If they do fakeclaim, then they can shoot them, but would most likely shoot someone else, in which case yes, it's likely they can shoot a TK/JK (if there are ones). However, we don't know if there are TKs/JKs, and because of points (1) and (2) we can find the fake-claimers more easily than if they hadn't claimed at all.
About your other post: I think I've already explained about the chaos of not having vigs claim and such. Midnight makes other good points as well.
To Midnight:
On April 21 2012 11:59 MidnightGladius wrote: I realized that I needed to revise my earlier analysis:
If a GF claims vig and then has a Goon shoot his claimed target, we lose the ability to deduce the results of night actions, unless a tracker is lucky enough to track a GF doing nothing while his claimed target dies, or a JK goes against the plan, jails one of the vig claims, and that player's target dies.
Yeah I already stated this (if you agree with my plan it would be better to actually read it ) It just adds another logical statement to take into account when analysing players and directing the vigs (or analysing their play).
2) If a vig claims a target and that player doesn't die, then we lynch them both: either it was a GF shooting without having a Goon fake the shot, or an actual vig hit a GF. Either way, we hit scum.
I disagree with this. Yes, it's most likely that if that would happen, we would end up lynching at least one of them. But that's not an automatic thing to do, it depends on the context.
Like I said, each claim, report, night action, night result, etc adds a logical statement we need to take into account. If a 1v1 event happens, it's just another logical statement; and we may even logically conclude who is scum between those 2 without the need to lynch them both. Or we can conclude who is scum out of those two by analysing their behaviour like we would normally do. Etc, etc
About VE (again):
On April 21 2012 11:08 VisceraEyes wrote:WHOOPS!!! ##Vote: gonzaw (for real this time )
What the...? You think I'm scum because of a "scumslip"? Really? You push me right now and disregard everything else (I think like 40% of your posts have been "People vote gonzaw, okay bye") and this is your reasoning? You think my plan is "shitty", but you still haven't said how I would benefit from it if I was scum. You say it's shitty because "we don't know if JKs would cooperate or not" (although you did too, check that contradiction before), but what does that have to do with me pushing a scum agenda with this plan? Do you think that if I'm scum I'll magically know that JKs will not cooperate or something?
Also, remember this VE?:
On April 11 2012 16:26 Artanis[Xp] wrote:Show nested quote +On April 11 2012 15:11 gonzaw wrote: What is an unwinnable situation? One where no matter how much scum we lynch, we still lose.
E.g: If we start at Day with 10v6, it's unwinable, because of this: D-10v6 N-10v5 D-7v5 N-7v4 D-5v4 N-5v3 D-3v3 GG
Meaning if at any day we are 10v6 we win even if we lynch 3 scum in succession, because scum KP will always be 3, and then 2 (scum kill more townies than we lynch scum). Woke up, read through the thread and notice this little gem. He makes a post regarding how mafia would win a 10v6 and accidentally puts in we win, we being scum. Gonzaw, do you have a confession to make? Are you scum?
Your team is Adam4167, Artanis[Xp], Toadesstern, Zealos, VisceraEyes and zelblade
Do you know what that entails?
Hint: It entails you are scum. It entails you are scum trying to discredit a good plan that can fuck up scum. It entails that you are trying to discredit the plan by pointing out asinine points like "We can't assume anything about the JKs". It entails that you "found" a scumslip from me and you are trying to milk it as much as you can. This means that you are: -Discrediting my case (by implying I'm scum) -Disrupting town by focusing, and making others focus on that stupid "scumslip", while avoiding other discussion -Because of said disruption, you shift the attention away from my plan, so even if you are not directly discrediting, you are "burying it" so people won't take notice of it or the discussion that stems from it -Faking to scumhunt. Of course, you use the "We can't assume anything about the JK's cooperation, you assume something about the JK's cooperation therefore your plan is shit" card (which is not valid itself), but you also say that you actually think JKs should cooperate in this scenario? You contradicted yourself there, but it's not a small thing because you kept going about it. It's not a small contradiction about some thing barely noticed, it's something you use as the heart of your rebuttal of my plan. It would be impossible for you not to notice that contradiction of yours, unless of course you are scum and you don't care.
##Vote: VisceraEyes
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On April 21 2012 12:50 johnnywup wrote: Honestly, if a GF flips then don't much think about it. We won't be able to analyze it. The method gonzaw wants gives the ability for scum to kill the power roles we do need (tk, jk), so i don't like it. We have to focus on killing goons as they control the KP without thinking too much about the vig. After that it shouldn't be that hard.
If a GF flips, it means that everything you've done until then was pointless. Imagine there's a player that's scummy, and you vote him. Then other scummy people start voting him. You say "Oh well, they must be bussing him". Then that guy flips GF. If those were scum, were they bussing him or were they tunneling a vig? You played the whole previous day assuming they were bussing him or something, and that you would find out after he flips, but after that all your analysis was rendered moot. If that player had claimed vig beforehand, you wouldn't have made that "Oh they must be bussing him, I'll check that after he flips" analysis, and you, with the rest of town, would focus on other things, and focus on how other players react to said player knowing he will either flip GF or Goon, etc. If vigs claimed, you would have the foresight of knowing his flip; and scum will know that players alignment once he flips anyways, so they will have the same info, but they may actually play with town before getting him lynched if he hadn't claimed.
Anyways johnny, what do you think of VE then?
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To Zephird:
On April 21 2012 12:58 Zephirdd wrote: /confirm
Usually millers have to claim as soon as they realize they are millers; However in this case the millers are also vigilantes, and we can't really protect them without RBing them.
I also will see a problem when, for example, one person claims vigilante; as in, the GFs didn't claim. Suddenly all the info we got from these "claims" is that our only vigilante is outed and mafia got a target on his head.
gonzaw didn't seem to care about this one possibility; I don't like that. I didn't read much past page 10 tho, and gotta go to sleep and go into my inactive mode(as I said before the game).
That's all.
~cya
Right, so yes, in that case our vig is outed, and mafia got a target on his head..
...so? Let scum kill our vigilante so they don't kill our TK/JK and so it gets rid of our "WIFOM element" then, or let him live but have his night actions, plus maybe the actions of a tracker/JK confirm him as town. He's a miller that flips GF and has the possibility of shooting townies; the sooner he's dead then the better. Of course if he's alive we can use his shot to coordinate a night kill, but if scum kill him they are doing us a favour.
Also, if only 1 vig claims, then ANY other GF flip is FROM CONFIRMED SCUM (since all vigs would have claimed before).
So now, I did "care about this one possibility".
I still don't like how people just disregard everything I say and plans I make, seems like UG all over again
To Mattchew:
What do you think about VE then? And what do you think about this plan thing and me "scumslipping" or some shit?
Paqman does flipflop around too much, but other than that I don't find him suspicious. I'd like your thoughts on other matters first Matt, and of course other people's thoughts on Paq and VE. However I dunno why it seems to me you are actively avoiding the VE thing or trying to draw attention somewhere else than on VE. So please don't avoid it.
To Johnny:
On April 21 2012 13:13 johnnywup wrote: @gonzaw
but what stops actual gfs from doing the same thing? its stupid, because we still can't know.
Doing what?
Even if it were "pointless" (trust me it's not), having vigs NOT claim doesn't make anything better. The pros of having vigs claim are better than them not claiming, and the cons may be the same regarding the GF flip (even though I think they are not). So the cons are the same (again, I don't think they are, but let's assume them for the sake of the argument) but vigs claiming has more pros, so it's the better choice anyways.
I don't like you using someone elses meta to explain his behavior though. That's retarded.
lol is that the only thing you've noticed from my post? And it's not meta, it's scum behaviour. Artanis' scum meta is barely posting until people accuse him. Him pointing out my "scumslip" has nothing to do with his meta, but with his behaviour.
Please read my accusation on him and post what you think about it. You know, the one where he discredits my plan because of a retarded JK matter, where he FoSes me based on a stupid "scumslip" (which he should have known is stupid and doesn't matter at all) and therefore keeps discrediting my plan as well, and where he avoids discussing things people ask him, or where he tries to disrupt town (just pick anything from that post I made).
He's pressuring you, gonzaw, and you're over-reacting.
He's FoSing, voting me and making 90% of his posts a reminder to other people to vote me, because of a "scumslip". That's not pressure.
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IMPORTANT NOTICE:
I've already explained all about the plan. All these "criticisms" by johnny, Paqman, etc have already been addressed, so if you want to check them out please just reread my filter. For instance, this:
On April 21 2012 13:24 PaqMan wrote: It's a bunch of what-if's and WIFOM that is getting us NO WHERE
It's already been addressed properly, so PaqMan please reread my posts.
So I'd like not to waste time arguing about it ad nauseaum while going nowhere.
So vigs, please reread it, analyse it, and make the right choice by claiming right now, or at least way before the lynch (specially if you are a lynch candidate).
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To Paqman:
*sigh* Okay Paqman, this is the last time I'll explain it to you.
On April 21 2012 13:29 PaqMan wrote: I don't understand that one part. How does this force scum to claim? Why would they lie in the first place and claim vigi? It seems smarter to just act as a normal town and avoid the attention that the vigi would get.
It forces them to take action They have to either claim vig or not. They have to quickly make up their mind, if not the opportunity of claiming vig in the future is lost to them (if we follow the plan, any vig claim after N1 or any GF flip is from confirmed scum).
The incentive for them to lie is because if all real vigs claim, they will be confirmed pretty easily. For instance, if they shoot townies/Goons, they will be almost instantly confirmed if the 2 Goons KP go through too. Also it's the only way they can actively disrupt town and feed us misinformation, if they don't claim they will leave everything to the vigs to do, etc.
That's the incentive they have to CLAIM, they also have the incentive to NOT CLAIM because they will remain hidden and not in the spotlight, and won't have to bother with fabricating fake-claims and reports, etc.
Again, the point is that it forces them to take action and REACT to things town does, not manipulate us.
On April 21 2012 13:37 PaqMan wrote: Or how about the vigi's DONT CLAIM AT ALL so that scum can't call vigi right before they get lynched and throw everything into disorder? Plus save the vig from possibly getting killed N1.
so that scum can't call vigi right before they get lynched
It doesn't matter, the point is that even if GF/vig don't claim at all, they will flip GF after lynched. That will tear any analysis or progress we would have wanted to make by lynching them. By claiming, we will know in advance what they will flip, so we can focus on other things (for instance in trying to catch the Goons instead of the vigs/GFs and ignoring that vig claim for now).
Plus save the vig from possibly getting killed N1
Vigs are Millers that flip GF that can only kill 50% of the scumteam, while they can kill 100% of townies. Explain to me why you want to protect them so much.
About what happens if no vigs claim:
Okay, no vig claimed for now, but what happens if all D1 goes by, every player has posted and no vig has claimed?
There are 2 scenarios:
- Everybody agrees with the plan: This means that there are no vigs in this setup, because if there was a vig, that vig agreed with my plan and so would have claimed. This means that every GF flip we find is from confirmed scum, so lynching someone that flips GF won't be a problem at all.
- Some people don't agree with the plan: There could be vigs or not. If a vig had agreed with my plan, he would have claimed, but what if the real vig is the one that opposes my plan? Then he wouldn't claim. However, if the situation arises, that player may be lynched or claim vig afterwards; which provides the same shitstorm scenario that I was describing before.
There's also the chance that there are in fact no vigs, and someone that opposed my plan is in fact scum and claims vig later. This means that we are still in the dark
So people, even if there are NO vig claims, you guys agreeing with my plan means we are still better off, so please analyse it fully, and hopefully agree.
Now onto important matters:
@PaqMan: What do you think about the other post I made about VE? What do you think about and him FoSing me based on the "scumslip"?
@johnny: So, you don't find his "contradiction", nor his FoS on me scummy then? Remember, he started discrediting my case, and that's what I would have expected him to do somewhat (considering his previous standing). But then he instantly FoSes me with the "scumslip" thing and disregards anything else, he doesn't comment anything else about me or why my plan benefits scum, or why my behaviour makes me scum, etc, nor he does comment on what people ask him.
I agree that he's aggressive at least, and that fits his town meta the most. He didn't start playing like in LI for instance. There's the chance he's putting his neck out to bury the hell out of my plan because scum greatly fear it (which is why he would change his meta). But if he's town surely I'll notice it if he explains himself and acts accordingly, but for now I don't think so.
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I'm sure VE will point this out and create more shitstorm, so just in case I'll address this:
No, I didn't mean "our plan" as in "the plan my scumbuddies and me hatched". I meant "the plan town would have imposed once people agreed with me".
Now, I dunno why but I think I'm posting WAY too much >_> I'll try to tone it down a little bit
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On April 21 2012 14:14 Risen wrote: He already pointed it out in his post voting for you. You're a little late. Posting from my phone I'll be home in a couple hours but it's a little late. Just read everything on my phone, though.
What I mean is that he (or someone else) would point out "Wait, so you OMGUS VE, but you don't even addressed that scumslip he mentioned? Oh uh you are scum and made a legitimate scumslip and you are FoSing VE to try and cover up the fact that you don't know how to actually respond or justify it oh uh hoh" or some shit
(yeah maybe I'm a little paranoid though >_> )
@Ottoxlol: Well, the point is that other than VE, you, Midnight, Paqman, johnny and Matt nobody else has really posted anything substancial, and maybe my constant flow of big posts will "bury" other posts, or make people less content about the thread (think LI's Day 2 for instance).
Of course, there are a LOT of players that haven't really posted yet, and I'm awaiting their opinion (of course it only has been like 4 hours since the game started, so it's not really their fault).
For instance, I'm VERY interested in what layabout, BlazingJitsu and sloosh have to say.
Now that I'm checking filters, I missed this post here:
On April 21 2012 11:39 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Just wondering, what's the chance gonzaw's not mafia but just making an extremely retarded point?
At any rate, what I don't get is number 6. If I was GF pretending to be vig, I'd shoot as many of the other vigs as I could. And if I was JK, I'd protect those vigs who I trust to be either town vigs or some other blues.
What do you mean by this? And Sentinel, what do you think of Paq and VE? Or do you have any other reasons for thinking my plan has "retarded points"?
(of course your 2nd point has already been answered in one of my many posts about this)
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Okay Paqman, so nobody else seems suspicious to you? What do you think about Midnight and his hard defense of my plan for instance? Or what about players that just happen to come by, nitpick my plan and then almost immediately leave, like Sentinel, Mementos, Zephird, etc?
Hey Ottolux, you wouldn't be a smurf would you? Your play and lack of introduction in your "/in" post makes it seem like it
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Yeah, hating on my plan seems to be "cool" so I won't think they are scum just because of it. I'd want them to take a stance on the Paqman/VE issue though, at least so we can start to scumhunt properly.
Oh, and another thing I screwed up: In this post: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=9#179 It should read like this instead (the are parts that were a little bit wrong):
On April 21 2012 10:37 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 09:52 johnnywup wrote: I think the plan falls apart if there isn't either a vig or a tracker, which is why I brought up that it's possible we don't have a vig. And what stops mafia from claiming vig then killing? Tracker sees that they kill the person that they kill, but hey it's a misfire right? Possibly, then if we policy lynch failed vig shots we could possibly waste lynches killing townies. But we wouldn't know anyways. So I feel like the plan is flawed from that perspective. If mafia claim vig, and claim to shoot a target, and then do so with their own KP, this can happen: - The Goon claimed vig, and he uses his KP to shoot his claimed target: Then he wastes his other KP. If he was real vig, then there would be an additional KP, but in this case there isn't. In this case he HAS to claim that the target of scum's KP got Jailed, which can bring problems to him depending on the real JKs, for instance if there is no JK he's fucked).
In this case, a tracker on him will watch him visit his claimed target Also, in this case (if a tracker tracks him), they can't "shoot" someone, claim their shot failed and say his target was GF, because the tracker will instantly know it's bullshit.
- The GF claimed vig and he uses the Goon's KP to shoot his claimed target: Same as above, but only the Goon will use his KP. So if a tracker tracks him, he will know he didn't shoot his target and will know he's scum.
I guess this means that maybe the GF's won't fake-claim vig, and the Goons will instead? In that case, if we ever lynch him, he will flip Goon and we will know 100% that he was scum when he's lynched. If he was GF and we lynched him, since he would flip GF we wouldn't be 100% sure he was scum. So to fake-claim, scum have to choose between: - Goon claiming:
Pros: Being protected from tracker's results Cons: Not creating confusion if they ever get lynched. Having to rely on JK's to claim their shots
- Godfather claiming:
Pros: Creating confusion if they ever get lynched, Cons: Relying on JK's to claim their shots. Not being protected from tracker's results.
Cons from both of them: If they don't want to rely on JKs to claim their shots, scum have to fake a claimed shot on a target, and say that his target is GF after there is no kill the next day. This will lead them to a 1v1.
Weird Scenario that they can use: If a Goon claims vig, that night he can use his KP to shoot a GF; then the next day he claims that scum's KP was blocked by a JK AND that his target is GF. Trackers on him will see him shooting the GF, so that may "confirm" him, although it seems too wild (but well, I'm editing this post so I am free to put anything I want, so fuck you )
The point is that they have to choose, they HAVE to do something. We will force them to react to our plans, and hopefully they fuck up their plans/fake-claims and we catch them easily.
(also added some bolded things to make it more pretty :3 )
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On April 21 2012 15:17 slOosh wrote: Haven't had a chance to properly read the thread yet, but what's to say scum won't just shoot the vigs?
Then let them, vigs are a hindrance this game and we'd be better without them. Of course, we'd be better with them being killed at night (where they will flip GF and we will know 100% they are vigs) and not by lynching them at day (where we won't know whether they were vigs or GFs).
I'm waiting for your other thoughts sloosh
Oh, another thing: If we ever kill a Goon, and it's confirmed that there are at least 2 JKs, then they should claim and medic each other each night to make us win 100%.
That can happen if: -No vigs claim, AND only 1 tracker claims after all trackers are told to claim (for instance). -Or none of them claim or something.
And of course if scum don't cc, but in that case there will be 1 more claim than usual who will be confirmed scum.
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On April 21 2012 15:50 VisceraEyes wrote: I'm done talking about claiming plans. Anyone who has a role is free to speculate however they choose. You're giving scum all the information they need.
I've made my opinion known. I feel like it town wants to adopt this ridiculous claim plan, then JKs and Trackers are going to be forced to participate. I wouldn't advocate participating in the plan in the first place.
Anyway, my vote on gonzaw stands - especially now that he thinks I'm scum because I disagree with a mass-claim plan. Unbelievable.
Okay, so you are going to ignore my case against you then?
I already said that you disagreeing with my plan was totally expected of you. What was not expected of you was:: -Discrediting my plan based on a stupid "You can't assume the JKs will cooperate" point -You contradicting yourself by actually saying that you would want the JKs to cooperate.
Anyways, it seems you didn't pressure me like others said (it was obvious you didn't just "pressure" me though, just reading your filter makes it apparent) and will stick to your "gonzaw scumslipped" version.
Also, you seem to ignore everything else as well. We were discussing Paqman's behaviour, and Matt's suspicious behaviour too (for instance). That discussion wasn't about "claiming plans", so why didn't you feel like discussing it?
To Janaan:
On April 21 2012 15:52 Janaan wrote: Here's my take on the whole vig claiming issue. I think it's a bad idea for a vig to shoot without claiming. The problem for me is that if vigs don't claim and get lynched, we won't really have any idea that the GF flip wasn't true, which would cause confusion. The only solution is for them to claim ahead of time.
However, I'm not ok with just a mass claim on N1 like Gonzaw has suggested, as that could lead to scum just shooting the vigs before they can shoot, taking away a valuable asset to the town.
What I would suggest is that on N1, vigs claim AND fire, shooting into any lurkers we have. If mafia want to fake-claim, then what this policy would force them to do is use a night kill on a lurker instead of an active town, which would actually help the town weed out lurkers, and make it harder on scum to hide, and save an active town member. Therefore it's less likely that a fake-claim will occur (WIFOM I know, but I still think it's logical) It will also get all the vig shots out of the way so scum can't claim vig later on.
The problem with this is that in a way it's a waste of the town's resources by aiming at lurkers and not directly at scum. I still think that minimizing the confusion caused if vigs flip is at least potentially worth something, though. The other problem is that we may not HAVE any lurkers, in which case we'd need to try something else. What that would be I'm not sure, but this plan WILL NOT work without obvious lurkers to shoot, since one of it's major advantages is making it less likely that scum will claim.
Any thoughts/comments? Think this is a good idea? Tell me why. Same for if you think it's a terrible plan.
I'll be going to bed in a minute, I'll be back tomorrow.
I like it that you are trying to bring new ideas to the table (so I guess this is not a "very bad 1st post" from yours )
Okay, answer me these questions then: 1)What happens if we lynch a GF (someone flips GF) on D1 then? (in your plan vigs claim in N1) 2)If all vigs shoot "lurkers" on N1, what happens if there are 3 vigs and the 3 lurkers are town? What happens if there is a KP unaccounted for? What happens if town wanted someone else dead, and some people actually thought a targeted lurker was town or had better candidates in mind? 3)Why would you want to protect vigs? They are Millers who flip GF upon death and can't actually shoot GFs. Why would you NOT want scum to shoot them on N1? How are they a "valuable asset" in this case? 4)Who decides who shoots who? Remember this from the OP:
Two Vigilantes shooting the same target use both their bullets.
2 or more vigs can shoot the same guy, which leads me to the next point:
5)What happens if a scum claims vig "after" someone else claimed vig and he claims he targeted a "lurker" that another vig targeted? Would you believe they are 2 vigs that were lucky enough to target the same player, or that one is a vig and the other one a scum that just chose to "hide" behind the other vig so he didn't have to waste the Goon's KP?
Final question: What do you think about VE, his "case" and my case against him? And what about other players that have been the focus of attention lately?
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About the plan:
On April 22 2012 01:28 Mementoss wrote: Despite myself making a plan for vigs im starting to think its going to be impossible to get everyone to agree to one plan, and none of the plans work unless all vigs on on board. Vigs just keep your actions beneficial to the town and think about the consequences. I still really think vigs should play like vets and try to soak up night kills, confirming themselves not real GFs.
Sadly I have to agree with this. (I was going to comment about layabout's points and other people, but it will only clogg up the thread, so I'll leave it be).
If some people agree with my plan, while others don't, then it's possible the real vigs are the ones opposed to my plan, meaning even if a majority agrees with it (which is not the case) it won't do any good.
You know, I'm pretty sure if we ever lynch a GF he WILL claim vigilante beforehand, and will make sure to do it at the last minute (so we can't switch the lynch to someone else, or if we do scum control who gets lynched).
Let's see if we can agree on something at least:
- If a vig ever shoots, he should claim right before the deadline, claim his target, and post convincing reasoning on why he targeted said player (just like in every game).
- If a vig didn't shoot, and is getting lynched, he should claim in advance so we can leave him (to confirm himself with his night action), and so we can hunt Goons, since it's more likely a GF will fake-claim vig in that situation. After he performs his night action, depending on what happens that night, we decide what to do with that claimed vig.
At least this will buffer the chaos a GF lynch flip would make by making us redirect our focus somewhere else before that happens.
To VE:
On April 22 2012 00:46 VisceraEyes wrote: gonzaw's response to my vote was terribad. Everyone should be voting for him or explaining why he's town plz.
For anyone who's all like "Hey I don't think scum would stick their neck out with some plan", I say only "OH REALLY FOOL? You don't think scum would be willing to trade a modicum of suspicion on them for the identities of all of our vigs?"
He's pushing a scum agenda in trying to fish for claims, and I for one will NOT ALLOW IT!
You keep ignoring my case, and you don't really state why my plan has a scum agenda behind it. Remember the vigs hurt town this game, outing them before they hurt town is the opposite of a "scum agenda"
(PRE EDIT: Now that Mementos (I think) pointed it out, I realise that if X vigs claim, scum will know how many trackers/JKs are around, and if scum fake-claim vig then we won't know how many other blues are around yet scum will. I didn't really think of this, and even though it's not that big of a deal in comparison to the other benefits from my plan, it's a significant con)
I'm scumhunting as well, I'm not ROL on Purgatory Mafia that just discussed his "bad" plan and never did shit. I'm trying to contribute to the game too. Are you saying I'm scum and I'm faking to scumhunt as well?
And again, you IGNORE everything else going on in the thread. You ignore the Paqman dilemma. You ignore the Mattchew one. You ignore the marvellosity one as well
You know, kind of how you acted in LI, not caring about the game. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt because you are acting quite aggressively, not like your meta from that game, but if you want to convince me you are town you have to care about the game.
To Mattchew:
On April 22 2012 02:31 Mattchew wrote: Why is paqman's only behaviour and mine suspicious? Do you find me to actually be more suspicious than paqman?
What do you think about VE then? And what do you think about this plan thing and me "scumslipping" or some shit?
Paqman does flipflop around too much, but other than that I don't find him suspicious. I'd like your thoughts on other matters first Matt, and of course other people's thoughts on Paq and VE. However I dunno why it seems to me you are actively avoiding the VE thing or trying to draw attention somewhere else than on VE. So please don't avoid it.
You ignored all that was happening in the thread to make a half-assed FoS on Paqman It reminded me of how Toad played on LI (not caring shit about what happened in the thread and FoSing someone completely different to disrupt town). So yeah, I found that suspicious, even more so than Paqman at that point (I think he's most likely town at this point).
I have to agree with you on something though:
About Daniel:
On April 22 2012 04:02 St.Daniel wrote: It's so fucking hard to keep up with everything when you are at a camp with a crappy internet connection XD I've read everything and I can't conclude anything with a confident, but I do have some ideas based on my observation so far. I'll post again as soon as I put some of pieces together.
And there is no need to be hostile at each this early in game, because thst's EXACTLY what they (scum) want. As long as we keep expressing ideas without trying to bite each other's head off. Remember, keep it simple and clear. <3 TL.
I don't really like this post either. Too "neutral" and kind of apologetic, without contributing at all. For instance the bolded part is all fluff and irrelevant (specially since nobody was that "hostile" to each other). I'll wait till you "post again soon and put some pieces together"; hopefully it's very soon
To Risen
On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote: Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us? I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too.
Okay, so you don't find "anyone" scummy by now?
So, tell me this then: What do you find not scummy about VE? What do you find not scummy about Paqman? What do you find not scummy about Mattchew? What do you find not scummy about marv?
If you don't think someone is scummy, while other people in the thread do, then you ought to post your reasoning and thoughts about said player and why you don't think he's scummy, because that player is a major point of discussion in the thread and it's your duty as town (if you are) to contribute to the thread regarding the major points of discussion.
Again, not caring about the game, or just saying "Meh, I don't think all the people being discussed are scummy, here I'll vote a completely irrelevant dude and FoS him and put all my attention to him" is exactly what Toad did in LI, and I find that sort of behaviour very suspicious.
Also, what do you mean by the bolded bit? And why would you vote the hydra? You think he's scum? Why?
@Jitsu: Hey Jitsu-part-of-the-hydra, would you mind posting your thoughts on the game so far? @sloosh: You are also making a whole lotta effort in ignoring everything that's happening in the thread. Care to contribute something else?
About Ottoxlul: I didn't find his posting suspicious, at least when this thread was at the "plans" stage. I'd want him to take stances on these past few issues. About Paqman, marv, Matt, Risen, etc.
About marv: I don't like his somewhat lack of effort in the beginning of this day, yet I don't find him that suspicious as some people have said. He's got quite a few votes very fast too, which always makes me nervous about the legitimacy of wagons. However, I don't really see him as town, and I could see him being scum, so he wouldn't be a bad lynch candidate.
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Questions and shit to people:
On April 22 2012 06:04 slOosh wrote: Gonzaw if you don't like my posting style in bigger games, that's fine. I'm here so you can ask me what you want to. I'll be building my case against VE in the meantime.
I want you to post your thoughts on the recent events. As soon as you came back you just asked laya about Risen and reacted to him later, I didn't see you posting any thoughts of your own, which is what I found odd. At least in LI you posted some thoughts about some things.
On April 22 2012 06:02 BlazingJitsu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 05:59 gonzaw wrote: @Jitsu: Hey Jitsu-part-of-the-hydra, would you mind posting your thoughts on the game so far?
The lesser head is currently absorbed in the wonderful world of D3 open beta. Do you have a more specific question than that?
-Blazinghand
I just want him to contribute something at some point. I know what scum hydras are capable of doing with their both heads, I did it as a scum hydra on Newbie IV.
On April 22 2012 06:03 Ottoxlol wrote: As a townie, I find myself useful pressuring everyone to clear up their game. If I were the one coming up with a plan we discuss i would be the one spamming the thread. If they don't understand something, after asking it twice and getting the same answer they get on my watchlist. I would rather not accuse someone because he is dumb, that's not scummy enough for me.
It seems like we won't have a consensus on the vig situation, but it was a very helpful debate to get infos. Too bad not everyone posted yet.
Same question I asked Risen: If you don't think the players discussed at the moment are scummy, explain why you don't find them scummy.
You should discuss with town about these players, even if you don't think they are scum, so we know what stances you have and have an easier time figuring out your alignment
On April 22 2012 06:10 Zephirdd wrote: I see gonzaw arrived a reasonable way to "plan" vigilantes here. That is, a vigilante should just play as a normal vigi.
I also want them to claim way before they get lynched (if they are set to be lynched) so we can focus our attention on catching Goons and letting the vig confirm himself with night actions.
I still can't be sure who I should vote. I see marvellosity is leading the votecount, can someone provide me a link to a case of his, or even a page where I can find it?
The game barely started, why are you saying that? You don't need to instantly know who to vote, that's not what the 1st half of D1 is about and you know it.
This 1st half is there to pressure people, contributing, making sure people know you are town and prodding people to determine their alignments.
So Zephird, it would suffice if you would just comment on the things happening. For instance, what do you think of VE? And what about Mattchew and Paqman?
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@Blazing: I guess that the "timing" thing he mentions is the same one I'm accusing Mattchew and Risen of:
There is a lot of shit going on in the thread, but instead of commenting on it, or posting thoughts about it you ignore all of it and go FoS someone completely irrelevant to the current discussion, and then you continue to ignore it.
For instance, you don't mention VE, nor Paqman at all and those were "cases" and discussions that happened before you made your marv case.
So yeah, now that I notice that it does seem suspicious of you too.
Speaking of which, please tell me what you think of VE, Paqman and Mattchew, and tell me why you ignored all 3 of them until now.
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To Matt:
On April 22 2012 07:22 Mattchew wrote: As I said before in the thread I don't like to discuss or direct blues. Why would i partake in a conversation that I don't care at all about? Instead I am actively trying to find scum, not yelling at everyone that disagrees with me and calling them scummy like you, VE, Risen, and Paqman.
I care what is happening in the thread, just not for the actual vig conversation. I am a suspicious of VE because he seems to be convinced by very little that you are scum. I am still suspicious of Paqman because he has seemed to tunnel me because he was pressured. I am suspicous of St Daniel because that first post was fucking terrible. I'm less suspicous of marv but I do like the players pushing him (laya and blazing) as they seem townie to me.
I am now going out to dinner a movie with the girlfriend... I might be back on in like 6 - 7 hours if she falls asleep before me.
If you cared why didn't you comment on it at least? Why didn't you say "I don't care about these plans, they are useless let's hunt for other scum" then? If you are suspicious of VE why didn't you state so before?
If you cared about what was happening in the thread...why did you ignore it completely?
To BJ
On April 22 2012 07:13 BlazingJitsu wrote:The entire discussion about mass role claims, and your stupid mass roleclaim in particular, is retarded. Everything that percipitated from it is retarded. My notes for mattchew currently are: "suggests a policy lynch of BM. Pushes paqman semi-shittily" My current notes for Paqman are: "worthless" Clearly you didn't read my filter, because I haven't ignored VE. Go read it. My current notes for VE is: "worthless townie", building off of stuff I've already said briefly about VE. See everyone seems to think VE is somehow useful as a town player, when in actuality he's utterly totally and inexhaustibly bad ( see SOAF mafiaIn any case, Marv was hiding in plain sight so i called him out. Also I didn't FoS anyone. I fucking voted that motherfucker with the intention of burying him. And... seriously dude. just read my filter before you quesiton me about it. Your pressuring skills are pretty bad.
Well I'll give it to you, I did not notice that part where you talk to VE.
Anyways, your case is not that bad since you (apparently) do that as town too (like when you were "traitor" in LI and FoSed ST/4Face out of nowhere).
So, apart from those "notes" what specifically do you think of Matt and Paqman? In those "notes" of yours you don't mention anything about what you think their alignment are.
On April 22 2012 07:14 BlazingJitsu wrote: As to why I haven't talked about literally EVERYONE in this game, it's because I'm not some shitty dick player who writes massive illegible posts that need over 9000 [horizontal rule] tags just to seperate his stuff. I push my strongest scumread and don't clutter up the thread with bad clutter. I've pushed what I need to push. If you don't like the fact that I'm not pressuring all 18 people in this game, then you can go take a hike. I don't need your "help" to hunt the scum in this game. In fact, given your skill level, I'm probably better off if you actively work against me. Please do so.
-Blazinghand
Oh that's cute. I don't really want to start a flame war with you, but if I were you I'd think twice before saying your "method" is better than mine.
+ Show Spoiler +Also apparently that contradicts what you said earlier: Also, your new post formatting is quite legible! Much improved from our previous games.
And I've already said it before, but I'll repeat it: The point isn't about "pressuring" everybody and being all over the place. The point is that if there's a major point of discussion in the thread, it's your duty as townie to post your thoughts about it. Why? Because it proves to people that you care about the game. It proves that you are willing to post thoughts of your own without being pressured. It proves that you are transparent with your reads and willing to contribute. It doesn't matter if you just post 2-3 sentences about the issue, you don't need to write an essay about it. But you need to post your thoughts either way, no matter if they are few. If you fail to do this, then people will think you don't care about the game, they will think you are not transparent with your thoughts, they will think that maybe you have a hidden (scum) agenda. It will make people NOT think you are town, and that's bad, very bad. So people, if you are town try to post your thoughts on current events often so we can figure out you are town.
@sloosh: Good post. I want people to post their thoughts about it and about my case against him as well.
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On April 22 2012 07:50 ghost_403 wrote:@BJ + Show Spoiler + 4F doesn't deserve to die in any game. That guy was a genius at finding scum, he just didn't know it. VE is probably scum. Accusing gonzaw of a scumslip is just terribad, and someone of his experience should know better. Also, the idea of a JK working against the town is such a fashion is WTF bad. If he was a noob, I would give him a pass, but he's not. He should know better than that. Sentinel obviously rolled scum this game. His filter has nothing of content, and when layabout called him out, it took him 15 minutes to unlurk, at which point he added nothing to the conversation. He's here, but not contributing at all. I think he would make an excellent Day 1 lynch.
So...will you vote VE or not? Will you vote Sentinel too or not? Why didn't you vote either of them? What are you waiting for?
On April 22 2012 07:47 Ottoxlol wrote: gonzaw:
Yes, if we are discussing a plan or someone makes a case against someone we want to know everyone's opinion. but also town shouldnt post every thought on their mind. If I am not sure about someone and the case against him is really weak, no one will panic or get lynched. I think it is a viable strategy to wait till he comments on other people's cases, if pressured scum will be more careful.
Yes they shouldn't post every though on their mind, but they should comment something at least. Saying "I'm not convinced by X's case on Y" would suffice as well. If player Y is getting a lot of flak though, it would be wise to comment more thoroughly on the situation; either to cement Y's lynch if he thinks the cases are strong, or to convince people not to lynch Y and focus on other things if he thinks the case is weak.
If doing so helps them establish their innocence then it's better for them to do it. Plus, scum are VERY likely to not do that and just fly by doing whatever they want. That is one of the signs I try to find in mafia (apathy, not caring about the game, etc).
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Hey johnny, at first you posted this:
I think [UoN] Sentinel is the scummiest and I will post a case on him in a bit.
So where is that case? You are voting marv now....what about Sentinel? Wasn't Sentinel the "scummiest"? You never mentioned marv
Specially if you take this into account (you said it in a previous post):
Overall I think that the marv case was initially good but marv has shaped it up and I don't think is that scummy anymore.
So BJ's 2nd case convinced you marv was scum, but Sentinel isn't?
Anyways BJ, I have a small feeling marv is scum too, because like you said he didn't contribute with reads, and because of stuff mentioned before... ..but damn the votes on him start piling and piling. For instance layabout voted him without hesitation and then disappeared. Midnight and johnny didn't need too much convincing to vote him either.
This is not majority lynch, marv can get lynched even with 3-4 votes, so I'll wait and take all other possibilities into account.
For instance I don't like how sloosh's case on VE was buried and nobody commented on it, here it is: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=18#357
For now I'd prefer a VE lynch rather than a marv one, specially VE put almost 0% effort in scumhunting or even contributing at all so far.
Sentinel, Mattchew Risen could be good choices for a lynch too (Matt and Risen for things I mentioned before, Sentinel because of his lack of contributions and odd posts so far).
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Blazinghand, did you learn anything from LI? Stop tunneling, take a step back and analyse things more objectively.
You think marv is scum, good. Now, are you willing to just tunnel him until the day ends and force everybody into voting him or something? Would you be willing to NOT discuss other lynch candidates and the cases made against them either?
Also although I agree that marv may be scum, I'm not confident in your reads BH (again, for instance take SoaF or LI where you just tunneled townies), so I don't see how this could help at all considering there's a chance you are just wrong and could make us waste all D1.
For instance, another thing: Some of us mentioned how Daniel's fist post was scummy as fuck... ...and again that was buried with all this marv talk. He should definitively be a lynch candidate as well, at least until he contributes more; but that won't happen if this whole "marv tunneling" thing keeps going on.
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EBWOP:
@Marv: Give us your reads NOW.
Post your thoughts on sloosh's and my case against VE, post your thoughts on Paqman's case against Matt.
Also, what do you think of Risen? If you are town don't get aggressive to BH because of his tunneling and prove to us you are town by contributing. The only other alternative is death, so choose wisely.
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On April 22 2012 08:43 johnnywup wrote: yes gonzaw i can in fact change my mind. I found my case on sentinel was subpar so i didn't post it. whats wrong with that?
It's wrong because you are not being transparent, and it makes it look like you just FoSed Sentinel to see if someone could jump on him as well but didn't really care about Sentinel in the first place, and saw the slightest opportunity to jump on marv and justify your vote. Is that the case or is it not? I won't know if you aren't trasnparent.
I'd still like to see why you think Sentinel is scum though, if you think it's "subpar"...then make it better.
@marv: You are not helping. Ignore BH and do what I asked.
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On April 22 2012 08:50 johnnywup wrote: Make it better? I think the case was bad and I didn't have enough evidence to make it a good case. So get off me. I don't care what it makes me look like. If I have a bad case and I post it and people recognize that it's bad then that's worse. I'm being perfectly transparent that my case was bad. I don't have to post anything for you.
No, you weren't transparent about your case being bad. You said that after being called out. And stop getting butthurt about it too, if you say that Sentinel is the scummiest player out there and then you completely ignore him to vote another player you know it won't look good, so don't get all "mightier than thou" on my ass.
On April 22 2012 08:48 marvellosity wrote: Yet you fail to answer any of my questions.
Why don't you look at the filter list and ask what about 6 of the non-posters have done?
I've cast my opinion on matt's case - I think it isn't right, and I've provided the reasons. I've also cast my opinion that VE's objection to gonzaw's claim was REALLY BAD, and he never backed it up.
Please, go ahead and tell me I've done less than a bunch of other lurkers in the game.
Forget about the non-posters. It doesn't have anything to do with inactives, it has to do with you not contributing anything useful to town and being evasive.
Don't tell me if you thought VE's objection to my claim was "REALLY BAD", tell me if you think VE is scum or not. Go read sloosh's case and tell me "I wholeheartedly agree with this case and VE is scum" or tell me "No, this case is bogus and VE is most likely stupid town, so get off him".
You are just retelling what people do, you say "Oh, VE did a very bad thing" or "Oh, Matt's case on Paqman was bad". But you don't take any stance on anybody's alignment. You don't say "I think VE is scum" or "I think Matt is town". You don't make contributions about what you think of other players either. You don't say what you think about Matt nor comment on what other people think of him, you don't participate in other things either.
You are getting way overaggressive against BH for some stupid thing like "But you aren't calling out other lurkers, why should you call me out?" and you fail to do what other people ask you to do.
If you keep up like this I'll just assume you are scum and try to find the rest of your team.
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EBWOP:
There's a thought in the back of my head that tells me "What if this guy is acting just like michaelthe or ST from LI? Maybe he's just acting stupidly like that just because".
But no marv, you are not michaelthe nor ST. When you are town you contribute, you make yourself apparent town as well. Look at LI, and then look at this game. You are not trying to help town right now, so it's not "Oh this is just how he plays" or anything like that.
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BH you too
Read sloosh's case against VE, read my case against VE and tell me to my face whether you think he's scum (and may support his lynch today) or not; and post reasoning for thinking either of them.
If marv doesn't get lynched today, who would you lynch BH?
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On April 22 2012 09:10 BlazingJitsu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 09:05 gonzaw wrote: BH you too
Read sloosh's case against VE, read my case against VE and tell me to my face whether you think he's scum (and may support his lynch today) or not; and post reasoning for thinking either of them.
If marv doesn't get lynched today, who would you lynch BH? I would lynch Marv.
-Blazinghand
*sigh*
The worst thing is that you are probably town and doing this on purpose, so you'll keep doing it unless scum/vigs kill you.
I'll repeat the question again: Other than marv, who would you lynch? Or more generally: Other than marv, who do you think is scum and why?
@ghost: You said this previously:
On April 22 2012 08:12 ghost_403 wrote: @gonzaw: I think a town should be focused in what they do, so I don't like throwing votes around all over the place. If I had to vote for one of them right now, I would vote sentinel over VE. My only reservations about voting VE at the moment is that I think he should play a better scum game, but I can see his scumslip case as something he was hoping other townies would catch on to and run with.
So, you think VE and Sentinel are scum, yet you don't vote them. Why isn't voting for someone you think is scum "not being focused in what a town does"? You are not "throwing your votes around all over the place", you are voting to lynch someone you think is scum.
Also, what made you change your mind from:
On April 22 2012 07:50 ghost_403 wrote: VE is probably scum. Accusing gonzaw of a scumslip is just terribad, and someone of his experience should know better. Also, the idea of a JK working against the town is such a fashion is WTF bad. If he was a noob, I would give him a pass, but he's not. He should know better than that.
To:
On April 22 2012 08:12 ghost_403 wrote: My only reservations about voting VE at the moment is that I think he should play a better scum game, but I can see his scumslip case as something he was hoping other townies would catch on to and run with.
??
Please read my case against him (here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=12#226 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=17#333) And sloosh's case against him (here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=18#357 )
And post more opinions about it, or say if you agree with all the points or not.
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CAN SOMEBODY FUCKING CHECK SLOOSH'S CASE AGAINST VE?
THANK YOU FOR YOUR ATTENTION
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On April 22 2012 09:35 ghost_403 wrote: As far as this change of heart, I don't see it as a change of heart. Not all bad play is scummy play. What I was trying to get across there is that I think that Sentinel is the better lynch out of the two of them.
Did you read sloosh's case then? Do you agree or not with it? Do you think all the points he made were "bad play"? If so then please explain it more thoroughly
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Okay people, I'm going out so hopefully you guys start posting your thoughts about VE, and about Daniel as well (don't let him fly under the radar).
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yo people wahts auP?
I heard you got a lot of votes flying around, and on BIll Murray too? (didn't read the thread lol!) Did he scumslip or some shit? Why aren't there mote votests on VE?
Woop woppity wopp
sloosh I like that case on VE, so keep it up, so did people talk about it as well? BH did youstop being an asshole? layabout I didn't see any MS PAINT from you, that's VERY SUSPICIOUS EYAH! I expected more from you *sad facey*
Woot okay onna go to sleep. See you in a couple of hours.
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From ho, johnny the big jdub Leave VE until day 2. If he's not dead then he's probably scum.
No, if VE is scum we lynch jim now. You swtiched your vote too very fast (didn' tead the whole thread though). Hopeuly lly you have more reaonings behind it.
Also lynch Danile. Wait...I know..... A VIG SHOOULT SHOOTO HIM!! YES!!! So pleas if we have a vig shoot CVDAniel tonight. Tahnk you Seattle, stay classy.
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Wait VE claimed JK?
Wut the fock? Worst claim ever. It's on par with Zentor's from SoaF. Well, if you are town you'll get killed soon, so whawtever (hopefully iuyou protect me tonight if you are town :3 )
Hey, Bill Murray didn't post anything yet he's getting a lot of votes? What is this sorcery? People discuss the pleryaers that are active. You know that a ninja-vote rarely means the player is cum. So wait for Bill murray to come back, but gkeep arguing about other people too. Having everybody waste their vote on him, and wasting all D1 waiting for him to come hcakc/back is sue/ueslees*useless.
Or again, if he doens't come back at all a vig could shoot him
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About VE:
On April 22 2012 13:49 VisceraEyes wrote:So that you guys know that whatever vig claim you come up with doesn't have my support, as the Town Jailkeeper. It has nothing to do with any wagon on me or slOosh's case on me, or anything. It has everything to do with my disagreement with gonzaw's vig claim plan.
VE, your claim really doesn't make any sense. You said you claimed NOT because of the cases and votes on you, but just to justify you disagreeing with my plan? Really? You outed yourself as JK to scum just so people would "know" why you disagree with my plan, even though my plan was not even being discussed anymore, and your reasons for disliking it or not didn't matter anymore?
Why are you acting so "defeated" too?
Other people are bringing up points about how this fits your scum play from LI and they are right, you are doing something similar.
However, you doing this on D1 (out of all days) as scum doesn't make much sense either, and you claimed JK out of all things. Scum will take care of you tonight, or at least will at some point if you are town, so you'll die soon anyways (no need to waste D1s lynch on you). I don't know why the hell you are acting like this and not scumhunting at all, so stop it.
I don't want to lynch VE now (it's likely he will flip JK adn we won't know shit because he's just making it so easy to vote for him), and for now I don't want to lynch marv nor Matt either. I get a more townie feel from marvs latest posts, so I'm not confident lynching him now. Matt seems more active and seems to care about discussion more now, I wouldn't want to lynch him either
Instead, I want to lynch another person, and I will make a case against him shortly. In a few minutes I'll be going away and I'll be back in 1 day or a little bit more, so I won't be around at the lynch, and I won't be able to be part of the discussion previous the the lynch itself, nor I will be able to influence the lynch that much because of it. For that I hope to make a case against this person and I hope you guys take that info and lynch accordingly, discuss, etc.
Also, these players haven't posted or contributed as much as I'd like for now: -sloosh -Midnight -Zephirdd
Zephird, you have only 3 posts since the game started and barely contributed at all. What do you think of marv? You didn't mention him at all yet he's been a point of discussion. What do you think of the Paq vs Mattchew feud?
About Daniel:
I still don't like his posts
On April 22 2012 16:44 St.Daniel wrote: Done reading all of the posts at 3:00 AM... fuck. First of all, I would like to apology for my lack of contribution because 1) I'm away at camp & 2) this is my first mafia game.
I would like to point out that my one and only post was shitty as hell. And I can't really make an excuse for it because it literally said nothing at all, even to my eyes. If you are currently suspicious of me, I can't say I blame you until I prove my worth I guess.
As far as my view so far is concerned:
I don't like Gonz's plan at all. Despite the fact that the town can really use blues to its advantage, it can easily not work. As VE has pointed out, if JK or Vil do not cooperate, it only hurts the town. Other than his plan, Gonz has been actively contributing and leading (if not demanding) discussion from for each case. My suspicion for Gonz is minimum a for now.
VE, on the other hand, pointed out some of the flaws of other players and made a reasonable case on Gonzaw. I'm not at all convinced by Slo's cases against him because it lacks solid evidence saying that VE is not contributing for the benefit of town (I think that was the main reason behind Slo's case). Even though I'm not voting for VE, I'll have to filter through his posts.
As for Paq and Mat, I'm not gonna pick a side YET. I think they are just pointing at each other going back and forth on arguing. If I have to pick a side, I'll go with Paq, because he pointed out some of possible evidence to proving Mat is a scum, however I do believe he is tunneling little too hard on Mat. Maybe taking a step back for a sec and goering in the broad picture would be a good idea. I would be interesting in listen more from you, Paq.
My vote so far goes to BM for an obvious reason. His mysterious contentless posts and his awkward response to the first sign of danger make him way too suspicious. This seems too easy (?). Anyway it's either he's a scum or he don't care about the game. Either way, I believe me voting for him is most beneficial for town. My vote will stand until he make an excuse out clarify himself by convincing me that he is not a scum.
##Vote:Bill Murray
I do have a case for Marv and I'm not sure how I feel about Ghost, but it's 3:40 and I'm dead tired. I'll post tomorrow on those two so please understand.
Notice the bolded bit. He doesn't say he will vote BM because he thinks he's scum, but he tries to be wishy washy about it saying "I believe me voting for him is the most beneficial for town". And what the hell is that "My vote will stand until he make an excuse out clarify himself by convincing me that he is not scum" thing?
What? You will vote BM until BM comes up with an excuse? His wording for voting seems very flimsy and it seems to me he just wants to make an excuse to vote for someone.
To vigs: I'd prefer if a vig shot BM or Daniel tonight. A vig shooting BM seems the best choice though.
We shouldn't waste D1 discussion about a player that isn't even posting (BM). That is what vigs are for.
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Risen:
I'd like to lynch Risen and I'll tell you why
On April 22 2012 02:22 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 01:42 layabout wrote:How are you feeling VE? Any thoughts on marvellosity paqman or mattchew? we need Risen to rise and get posting we need ghost 403 to de-cloak we need St.Daniel to grace us with his presence we need Janaan to get out of bed we need slOosh to stop fapping to Beethoven *we need BroodkingEXE to execute som scum for us we need Bill Murray to get his head in the game we need Zephirrd to tell you guys to stop posting shit we need layabout to stop with the puns lead us to victory Yeah I'm sorry. Just woke up. I'll get posting. Posting lots is pro-town and from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy. I'd rather we put pressure on someone who isn't posting. I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting. From the last page I do have a problem with mementoss' idea. It seems solid but as you said on this page, all vigs would have to get on board. I don't like directing blues in the first place (i realize this game has special stuff going on, though, so I don't think forwarding the idea is scummy. I just don't think we should do it). Another problem with your plan mt is your directing of jailkeepers. By directing jk away from targets and the vigis you give scum a potential three kill night. They can kill the vig, another person, and then if the vigi target is town they get to laugh at us. To sum, don't direct blues. I think there's been enough discussion about it and with no clearly best plan there's no way to get everyone behind one plan.
This post is wishy washy as hell.
First he starts by being unnecessary apologetic when laya called him out. He posts a very wishy washy statement like "from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy". Really? That's not the town Risen I know of.
The town Risen I know of would instantly find people scummy and try to create discussion. Town Risen wouldn't stay neutral and spout wishy washy shit like "I'm not sure who's scummy".
Then he keeps trying to appear more "innocent" and neutral by saying things like "I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting".
Then the rest of the post is fluff about Mementos' plan. He doesn't seem to have a solid stance on the matter (says things like "I don't like directing blues, though I realize this game has special stuff going on") yet he just keeps talking about it.
Also, please note the tone of his post. It seems neutral, but most of all it's not aggressive at all. It seems submisive. Layabout called him out and he seems afraid and posts only because he was called out.
Also take notice of the bolded "Posting lots is pro-town" bit, I'll use it later.
On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote: I don't get your reasoning mt or anyone else's voting for marvel. He's posting and it's very early day 1. There isn't that much to go off of so I don't think he's scummy. I hate lurkers, they always fuck us and it isn't pro-town at all. I'd rather not lynch someone who's here day 1. Posting is pro-town and I don't think we should be scaring people away from posting day 1 bc it just gives people an excuse to be worthless
He just barely comments on the marvel issue, but doesn't really take any stances. He keeps up with his "I still don't think anybody is scummy" excuse to avoid taking stances on people. He also doesn't comment on other things happening in the thread, like VE's "case" on me, or my case against VE, or the Paqman/Mattchew issue, nothing.
Again, note the bolded bit too.
On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote: Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us? I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too.
Now here's the kicker.
Here he goes against layabout and votes him, and his reason is "I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me"...
...really?
I already said how this seems like Toad's play from LI. He ignores current discussion, he avoids taking a stance on the current events, and instead decides to FoS someone completely irrelevant for shitty reasons, and keeps his vote there. This vote only disrupts town because he fails to justify it and derails current discussions. Not only that, but it makes it so he can "justify" his vote and just leave it there, so he can fake trying to contribute.
But there's another important thing to take into account: Notice how aggressive he's become against layabout.
Why did the tone of his post and his behaviour change so much? In that first post he sounded afraid. Laya called him out and he sounded submissive against him, he was the opposite of aggressive. He posted trying to please laya, had a very neutral tone, was wishy-washy and didn't take any stances.
Yet now that layabout points out Risen being suspicious, he flips and goes all crazy against him? Really? I don't buy that change of behaviour, it's inconsisent, it's way too sudden and doesn't make sense with the way he was posting before.
Hey, remember that bolded bits I was mentioning before? Here:
Posting lots is pro-town
He says that posting a lot is pro-town, yet he's not following his own advice and is barely posting!
So really people, Risen is scum because:
- He barely posts at all even though he said posting a lot is pro-town and people should be encouraged to do it
- Starts off wishy washy as hell, sounds very submissive and afraid of being called out, ignores current discussions and doesn't take stances on them, posts uninteresting fluff about directing blues while not even taking a solid stance on the matter
- Makes a very flimsy vote on layabout and doesn't justify it at all
- Has a very sudden change of behaviour. He becomes aggressive very quickly while his previous behaviour was the opposite of that
- He doesn't play like when he does as town at all. As town he posts without fear or hesitation, he actively calls people out and tries whatever he can to get some discussion going. As town he posts more and pushes people more, as town he doesn't park a vote on someone irrelevant for irrelevant reasons and remains hidden for the rest of the day
So people, let's lynch Risen
##Unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Risen
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On April 23 2012 01:36 Mattchew wrote:Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 09:15 Mattchew wrote: So anyway should we policy lynch Bill Murray because b. he gets away with everything "because he's Bill Murray" please don't let him get away with a ninja vote and literally no additions to the thread except 1 liners. He doesn't even try his imma be the best townie ever routine
No one will let him get away with anything. A vig shoots him tonight (hopefully we have one) and this whole ordeal is over, and we won't have to waste all D1 on a lynch on him. If he flips town (which is probable) then you wasted the whole D1 on nothing.
So no, BM shouldn't be lynched today. At all we lynch him on D2 if he fails to do anything by then and we have no vigs.
On April 23 2012 01:28 ghost_403 wrote: I think a BM lynch is a terrible idea (vig shout would be fine though). I don't think I've ever seen a case where a ninja vote was due to someone being scum. There's too much risk and no reward for scum in this situation. I think he's just insane.
I really don't like the fact that Sentinel immediately jumped on the lynch BM bandwagon. Trying to lynch insane players is scummy in my book. Same goes for you Mattchew. Why would scum even try to ninja vote? It makes way more sense to sheep instead. No one would have thought twice if BM had shown up in thread and said "lol VE scum ##vote VE".
VE's claim is bad. He's doing the same thing that he did in TLM LI in claiming when there's no reason to. I can't imagine scum VE doing the same thing twice, but now we're into WIFOM territory. In addition, JK is the only nonconfirmable role in the game. A vig shot shows up in the day post, and a tracker can confirm where someone went that night. It only makes sense that scum VE would claim JK.
Isn't Sentinel voting VE?
Speaking of which:
On April 22 2012 22:01 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Ok. What the hell is a "non-cooperative Jailkeeper"?
Coupled with trying to sway townies so much over the course of this thread, I feel no shame in voting VE.
##Unvote: ghost_403 ##Vote: VisceraEyes
St. Dan is next on my list. As for Brood, his last post was fluff but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Sentinel, please state more reasons why you "feel no shame in voting VE" rather than "trying to sway townies so much over the course of this thread".
Anyways ghost, I agree about the BM part. Saying BM is "scummy for not ninja-voting" is very easy to say. His wagon is very easy to jump onto. Everybody is justified in voting BM by this, meaning that it will be impossible to distinguish scum from town when we analyse voting once BM is lynched. Scum will have it very easy to jump on BM, and they won't have to post any reasoning behind their vote and can skate through the game some more.
Let's lynch someone else. That way scum will have to fake more reasons for voting those players.
So people, please check my case against Risen
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EBWOP:
People, again let scum take care of VE tonight. If VE is really JK, then I'm sure scum won't hesitate to kill him and get this over with, instead of not killing him and trying to "push his lynch on D2". If scum don't kill him, they run the risk of VE stopping their shot.
And like I said, a claimed JailKeeper will die at some point. Scum will kill him at some point, or they won't and it will be obvious he's scum (specially if he keeps up with his fearmongering tactics and fails to scumhunt).
I think it was in the mafiawiki that I read that you never lynch doctor claims or something.
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On April 23 2012 02:01 Mattchew wrote: Gonzaw I think your case on risen is weaker than the scum play of BM (cause of Meta Risen was super aggressive when called out in GoT, this is BM's scum meta). Why can't we lynch Risen tomorrow?
How about we do this so all of us are happy?:
-We lynch Risen now -A vig shoots BM tonight
I don't see how my case was weak. The way I see it Risen seemed to fake his "aggressiveness" against laya. I think this because he changed his behaviour very quickly, going from "guy seemingly afraid to post" to "aggressive OMGUSer" in a matter of minutes (so to speak).
Anyways, I'm going away now, so this will be my last post in a while.
Good luck town, hopefully you don't do something stupid while I'm gone
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EBWOP:
I already said why we shouldn't lynch BM, it gives scum a very easy way out to vote for him, and because of what ghost said it's more likely BM is town, or at least his ninja-vote should not be used to indicate his alignment, since apparently BM always plays this crazy.
Also Matt, why would we lynch BM and not Daniel for instance? If we are going to lynch inactive/lurkers who didn't contribute at all or did so barely, we might as well lynch Daniel too.
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*sigh*
I knew town would do something stupid once I left
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EBWOP:
This doesn't mean I don't think you played like shit VE, because you did.
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Okay, major thoughts after spending like 3 hours reading the thread:
About Risen:
First of all, I'll deal with your "rebuttal" (if you can call it that) of my case here:
+ Show Spoiler +On April 23 2012 06:45 Risen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 23 2012 01:16 gonzaw wrote:Risen:I'd like to lynch Risen and I'll tell you why On April 22 2012 02:22 Risen wrote:On April 22 2012 01:42 layabout wrote:How are you feeling VE? Any thoughts on marvellosity paqman or mattchew? we need Risen to rise and get posting we need ghost 403 to de-cloak we need St.Daniel to grace us with his presence we need Janaan to get out of bed we need slOosh to stop fapping to Beethoven *we need BroodkingEXE to execute som scum for us we need Bill Murray to get his head in the game we need Zephirrd to tell you guys to stop posting shit we need layabout to stop with the puns lead us to victory Yeah I'm sorry. Just woke up. I'll get posting. Posting lots is pro-town and from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy. I'd rather we put pressure on someone who isn't posting. I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting. From the last page I do have a problem with mementoss' idea. It seems solid but as you said on this page, all vigs would have to get on board. I don't like directing blues in the first place (i realize this game has special stuff going on, though, so I don't think forwarding the idea is scummy. I just don't think we should do it). Another problem with your plan mt is your directing of jailkeepers. By directing jk away from targets and the vigis you give scum a potential three kill night. They can kill the vig, another person, and then if the vigi target is town they get to laugh at us. To sum, don't direct blues. I think there's been enough discussion about it and with no clearly best plan there's no way to get everyone behind one plan. This post is wishy washy as hell. First he starts by being unnecessary apologetic when laya called him out. He posts a very wishy washy statement like "from what I've read I don't find anyone really all that scummy". Really? That's not the town Risen I know of. The town Risen I know of would instantly find people scummy and try to create discussion. Town Risen wouldn't stay neutral and spout wishy washy shit like "I'm not sure who's scummy". Then he keeps trying to appear more "innocent" and neutral by saying things like "I messed up last game with my pressure on ET so I'm not sure how to get everyone posting". Then the rest of the post is fluff about Mementos' plan. He doesn't seem to have a solid stance on the matter (says things like "I don't like directing blues, though I realize this game has special stuff going on") yet he just keeps talking about it. Also, please note the tone of his post. It seems neutral, but most of all it's not aggressive at all. It seems submisive. Layabout called him out and he seems afraid and posts only because he was called out. Also take notice of the bolded "Posting lots is pro-town" bit, I'll use it later. On April 22 2012 02:28 Risen wrote: I don't get your reasoning mt or anyone else's voting for marvel. He's posting and it's very early day 1. There isn't that much to go off of so I don't think he's scummy. I hate lurkers, they always fuck us and it isn't pro-town at all. I'd rather not lynch someone who's here day 1. Posting is pro-town and I don't think we should be scaring people away from posting day 1 bc it just gives people an excuse to be worthless He just barely comments on the marvel issue, but doesn't really take any stances. He keeps up with his "I still don't think anybody is scummy" excuse to avoid taking stances on people. He also doesn't comment on other things happening in the thread, like VE's "case" on me, or my case against VE, or the Paqman/Mattchew issue, nothing. Again, note the bolded bit too. On April 22 2012 03:04 Risen wrote:On April 22 2012 02:54 layabout wrote: Anybody feel like Risen is hustlin' us? I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me. ##vote layabout I'm done for now. I'll change my vote if someone does something scummy but I don't see anything and I think someone trying to push a wagon at this point is our best bet. I'll vote for the hydra too. Now here's the kicker. Here he goes against layabout and votes him, and his reason is "I think you're making up bullshit to try and push an easy wagon on me"... ...really? I already said how this seems like Toad's play from LI. He ignores current discussion, he avoids taking a stance on the current events, and instead decides to FoS someone completely irrelevant for shitty reasons, and keeps his vote there. This vote only disrupts town because he fails to justify it and derails current discussions. Not only that, but it makes it so he can "justify" his vote and just leave it there, so he can fake trying to contribute. But there's another important thing to take into account: Notice how aggressive he's become against layabout.Why did the tone of his post and his behaviour change so much? In that first post he sounded afraid. Laya called him out and he sounded submissive against him, he was the opposite of aggressive. He posted trying to please laya, had a very neutral tone, was wishy-washy and didn't take any stances. Yet now that layabout points out Risen being suspicious, he flips and goes all crazy against him? Really? I don't buy that change of behaviour, it's inconsisent, it's way too sudden and doesn't make sense with the way he was posting before. Hey, remember that bolded bits I was mentioning before? Here: Posting lots is pro-town He says that posting a lot is pro-town, yet he's not following his own advice and is barely posting!So really people, Risen is scum because: - He barely posts at all even though he said posting a lot is pro-town and people should be encouraged to do it
- Starts off wishy washy as hell, sounds very submissive and afraid of being called out, ignores current discussions and doesn't take stances on them, posts uninteresting fluff about directing blues while not even taking a solid stance on the matter
- Makes a very flimsy vote on layabout and doesn't justify it at all
- Has a very sudden change of behaviour. He becomes aggressive very quickly while his previous behaviour was the opposite of that
- He doesn't play like when he does as town at all. As town he posts without fear or hesitation, he actively calls people out and tries whatever he can to get some discussion going. As town he posts more and pushes people more, as town he doesn't park a vote on someone irrelevant for irrelevant reasons and remains hidden for the rest of the day
So people, let's lynch Risen ##Unvote: VisceraEyes ##Vote: Risen What kind of stupid shit is this? By request of jubjub Pac I'll respond. Wishy washy? What the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game? How the hell could ANYONE have true feelings of someone being scum that early on. You can have policies that guide you, such as kill every idiot you see, like anyone on VE or lynch lurkers like BM, but you can't possibly have feelings of people being scummy that early on. Only people who are atrocious at this game would take that point seriously. Oh look, we have pac taking it seriously. I'm so shocked. You say this posting looks like Toad from LI? Awesome. I'm not Toad. Also, where do you get me being SUBMISSIVE to layabout. The guy was playing like an idiot and I called him out on it. If you count me apologizing for cursing as being "submissive" then you need to get your head checked. How can you go from me voting layabout to trying to get approval from him. Stupidity at it's finest. BUT Pac wants me to address this piece of shit case so lets keep going. Wtf? Risen, as soon as LI started you pressured people (ET, johnny, others), you FoSed them and started discussion. And it was like 2 hours into D1You can't possibly use the "what the hell do you want from me not even a day into the game?" excuse at all when you don't don't do that when you are town. Yes, you were being submissive, before you called laya out, not after (geez read my fucking post I specifically quote the post I'm talking about) On to your little bullets. 1) I've been busy as all hell, but I've been trying to come in and read and post instead of lurk. Screw it, I should have just lurked. You're right, posting in the thread is anti-town. My bad, I was wrong. I'll stop posting. Thanks for the sarcasm that doesn't accomplish anything. Okay, so you pull off the "busy" excuse...does that justify your lack of activity until then? If you are busy/go away/etc you should tell us so we know about it before we even have to point that out to you. 2) Not taking a solid stance? I SAID DONT DIRECT BLUES. IT IS BAD. How much more solid does it get? What do I have to do to make it more solid? It seemed to me you were just talking just to talk there. You said things like "Well, but I don't see how pointing that out is scummy, but well..", spent talking quite a lot about Mementoss' plan, and all that just to say "don't direct blues". Don't worry though, this is not that important 3) A flimsy vote on layabout? You right... because votes before a day has passed in the game are going to be super solid. Oh wait. They're not. Only an idiot or scum would try and say something like this. I'm leaning idiot because at least your vote isn't with the derps on VE. Yes it's a flimsy vote, and don't use that excuse again, you know it doesn't work like that and it doesn't justify your vote AT ALL. For instance, there were PLENTY of JUSTIFIED votes from other players before you voted layabout, so your point is rendered moot and only serves to make it seem you are avoiding justifying your vote at all and misdirecting it. 4) I like how you call me passive and then point number 4 is saying I'm being too aggressive. This case is air tight guys, let's all get on the Risen choo choo. Right Janaan? Read my case. You were extremely passive until layabout called you out. Then you became extremely aggressive ALMOST INSTANTLY 5) People don't have lives my b I always forget about that. I wasn't supposed to head back to Vegas until next weekend and when I signed up for this game it didn't matter anyways. It took two years to start, though, and I've only been able to read the thread from my phone. Now I'm able to type on a keyboard and tear this horrid case to shreds. Excuses, excuses, excuses. You can't possibly tell me that you think people calling you out because you are not posting means we are idiots because we didn't know that you "weren't supposed to head back to Vegas" or you were "busy" right? Yes, it's possible you were busy, it's possible that Vegas thing happened and you were away or something. However, it's very possible that you had tiny bits of free time between those times to post too. It's entirely possible that you are scum, you were "busy", but when you had free time you just said "Oh fuck it, supposedly I'm still "busy" so I'll just not post for a while". I did it in Newbie IV for instance, where I just said things like "I'm going to uni and I'll be busy this week so I won't be able to post too much". I was busy and going to uni, but when I came back home I just read the thread, read the scum QT and talked to some people there and then did nothing at all and keep lurking. Then every other time I posted I'd say "Oh I'm back from uni/I'm not that busy anymore/blablabla". I wasn't lying, but I was exaggerating it so I was justified in not posting. So you making these kind of excuses doesn't let you off the hook at all. And like I said, if you are going to be legitimately busy, or going away to Vegas (or coming back to Vegas, I didn't really understand that part), then if you don't want misunderstandings you point it out to us. It's not required if you are able to establish your innocence before it, but since you completely failed at that in your case, yes you should have. Also, here's his filter from LI (was town): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325046&user=62525The fact that I could almost instantly peg him as town in that game, while I'm having lots of doubts about his alignment this game should indicate something, at least regarding Risen's earlier behaviour (before he went through that AFK period)
I'm kind of torn about this now. Before he started being "active" again, he was scummy as fuck. However, he started using his usual "townie" aggressive act after being called out. He started being assholes to everybody, posting actively, and FoSing everybody without any reasoning at all and just being a dick.
There are 2 interesting aspects I found:
- Heavily defending VE:
This is interesting, because as we all know VE flipped blue. For scum, this seems the best scenario to easily jump on the wagon of a claimed blue (that was scummy as fuck and ragequitted) and get him lynched on D1, instead of having to deal with him throughout the whole game, and either having to waste their KP on him at night, or having to deal with VE's saves each night in an attempt to get him lynched D2 and onwards. Yet he went the opposite way and heavily opposed VE's lynch. He was VERY VOCAL about it too. He begged people to get off VE. I'm trying to find scum motivations on this, and I can, but it seems kind of like a conspiracy theory, because it would be a fucking great scum play from Risen, and this is why:
Risen was under heavy fire from some people, mainly Paqman, me, Janaan, and some others that found him suspicious as well. He was FoSing everybody, acting shitty, etc, and nobody was listening to him. He had almost 0% thread presence. Him "begging" people to stay off VE would not convince anybody at all, specially not if he would just try to convince others to lynch BM using "Why aren't we voting BM? He's useless" as the sole reasoning to lynch BM (parabole here). Now, if he's scum, he knows he's under fire. He knows his voice doesn't have any presence, and he knows that he can't sway town into doing shit. Knowing that VE will possibly get lynched (probably with the help of his buddies), he knows that if he wants to save his ass, he has to oppose the VE lynch. Since he knows he has 0% sway over anybody, he can yell at people, he can beg them to not lynch VE, and he knows nobody would listen to him. After VE is lynched, he would gain immense amounts of town cred and be out of the spotlight. This would be fucking great scumplay. Of course, it would also need superb scumplay from him to "fake" that aggressiveness and dickish behaviour he has put since being called out.
It's worrying how sure he was about not voting VE though. His "We don't lynch a claimed doctor" reasoning would make sense for him to oppose his lynch...but I still find it odd how he was so confident about not lynching VE, yet he doesn't really state anything about VE's behaviour or if he thinks he's actually town or not, he just says VE is an "emo idiot", implies VE is just bad, and begs people to not vote for him. He doesn't mention anything about VE's actual play, doesn't mention if he thinks he's scum fake-claiming or a legit claim (although his wording implies he thinks VE is town, but he doesn't explicitely mention it). He just opposes the VE lynch for the sake of opposing it, and seems to ignore everything else that had to do with VE and VE's behaviour. It makes it seem like he wouldn't even care about VE at all and only cared about opposing his lynch.
- Fosing those that voted VE, but only a small group of them:
Now, this is another interesting thing. These are 2 posts I'll be refering too: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=32#628 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=33#655
He starts his "Everybody voting VE is scum/idiot" thing (just like he did the "Everybody NOT voting VE is scum/idiot" thing in LI). However, he just fixates on marv and BM. He FoSes marv just for voting the claimed doctor...something 6 more players did and he didn't mention them at all at that point(he does briefly mention BM though). He does mention all of them in the 2nd post....but he doesn't make a lot of conclusive stands on them. He mentions that he thinks sloosh and layabout are just idiots, good. He mentions that he thinks marv and BM are scum..good I guess? He still doesn't state why he thinks marv is scum out of all those players just for voting VE (marv had stated reasons for voting VE before, just like most that voted VE by that point). He mentions BM and then starts the crusades to get him lynched, good. However...he mentions that Sentinel and Oxxolul are being "derps" for voting VE and mentions scummy things about them...but then he never mentions them again.
If he FoSes marv for voting VE for shitty reasons, and he keeps picking up fights with him because of it, why doesn't he call Sentinel or Oxxolul out? I mean, we know that when he's town he just rages against EVERYBODY that does something he doesn't want to do or something he disapproves. Why does he completely ignore Sentinel and Oxxolul from then on? Why does he totally fixate on marv and BM, yet FoSes them using reasoning that applies to those other 2? He even implied he thought Oxo/Sentinel were suspicious or he was having doubts about them, it doesn't make any sense for him to ignore them. However, he just decides to "pick" the players that have more votes on them: marv and BM. That's quite a coincidence. Sentinel nor Oxxo had votes or suspicions on them, while marv and BM had votes and a lot of suspicions on them. It seems too much of a coincidence, specially since he doesn't mention anything about voting for marv/BM because they are more likely to get lynched or anything.
What's the scum motivation for this? Well, the obvious one is that Otto and/or Sentinel are scum, marv and BM are town, and Risen decides to oppose the VE lynch to gain more town cred now that he's been called out. Since he decides to oppose the hell out of the VE lynch, he has to play to his town meta and FoS those that voted for VE, so he decides to FoS the townies that are under heavy suspicion from the ones that voted VE to blend in with other players. It may seem unlikely, but I don't see a town motivation for Risen to IGNORE both Sentinel and Ottolul throughout the whole game since that post of his, specially considering his heavy stance regarding VE, and those that voted for VE.
Now, this may seem like a conspiracy theory, but even though Risen's past actions would "exonerate" him in many people's eyes (because he's playing to his meta, posting actively, going against the VE lynch and trying to lynch BM, etc), the way he performed said actions, and the way he's been acting regarding those other players make me very uneasy. I find it possible Risen is scum, decided to go all "Fuck this shit I'll FoS everybody, play to my town meta and oppose the VE lynch to gain cred", which is why I'm pointing this out.
Holy shit this post is gigantic, I'll post my thoughts on other players in a minute
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Sentinel
I think he's scum.
Here is his first "important" post: (All the ones before that one were just useless filler.)
On April 22 2012 09:53 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Show nested quote + On whatever date and time johnnywup wrote:
I think [UoN] Sentinel is the scummiest and I will post a case on him in a bit.
Hold the phone. What? Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 08:43 johnnywup wrote: yes gonzaw i can in fact change my mind. I found my case on sentinel was subpar so i didn't post it. whats wrong with that?
So... can we have a little tidbit of it? Is my lurking in there, Mr. Wup? Because I'm a regular lurker. Sometimes I have to sleep and eat and go places where I can't exactly contribute to mafia games. This is especially apparent when there are 30 freakin' players and it's a pain in the ass to have to catch up all the time. What about the other inactives? What specifically irks you about my lurking that I have to be voted off? Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 08:50 johnnywup wrote: Make it better? I think the case was bad and I didn't have enough evidence to make it a good case. So get off me. I don't care what it makes me look like. If I have a bad case and I post it and people recognize that it's bad then that's worse. I'm being perfectly transparent that my case was bad. I don't have to post anything for you. Hell, I'll give you some points for honesty, but could you at least PM me the case? I'd like to know my charges. Let's see why Otto doesn't like me: Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 07:38 Ottoxlol wrote: [UoN] Sentinel had two real posts, the first + Show Spoiler +Just wondering, what's the chance gonzaw's not mafia but just making an extremely retarded point?
At any rate, what I don't get is number 6. If I was GF pretending to be vig, I'd shoot as many of the other vigs as I could. And if I was JK, I'd protect those vigs who I trust to be either town vigs or some other blues.
He doesnt know that GFs cant shoot.. Nuf said, very bad post, calling out gonzaw but not making a case against his plan Incorrect. As GF you have this little-known thing called "kill power". This is how people tend to die at night. Now if I was GF and people claimed vig, I would be telling my scum buddies, "Hey guys, these people can shoot us. We need to kill a townie anyway, let's hit them where it counts." Show nested quote ++ Show Spoiler +I'm starting to think all of you people purposely post when I sleep
Let's do it like this - everyone just do whatever the fuck they want as long as it's beneficial in some way to town. If it's not beneficial in some way to town, then lynch them. If there's one thing I know, it's that voting/lynching/etc. plans always benefit mafia because they can pull them to their advantage (and also you get lynched when your plan especially sucks).
Keeping in mind with this train of thought, I will proceed to do whatever the fuck I want as long as it's beneficial in some way to town. When I get back, I'll read filters and try and put more on the table.
I would wait till he put more on the table before we jump to conclusions, I disagree with that plans always benefiting mafia. He's talkin more in general terms, so maybe if he states his case more clearly we'll get more information. Sentinel, if you would be so kind to tell us your opinion about who's benefiting the town right now and who's not, i would like to read what do you think who should we lynch. To be honest, at first I suspected Sloosh. This is why - Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 06:01 slOosh wrote: I like Ottoxlol - his questions are pertinent.
And yes I think VisceraEyes is scum.
Posting like this is terribad. Saying you like someone kinda establishes a one-way trust bond where in this case Otto would be less likely to lynch sloosh because sloosh supports Otto, but on very, very little evidence. "His questions are pertinent". If I ask a mafia-related question to Bluelightz that's also pertinent. Means nothing. Sloosh describes VE's anger as fearmongering, but other than that I have no problem with his argument. Which brings me to my next suspect: Show nested quote +On April 22 2012 09:35 ghost_403 wrote:@paqman: This is how I contribute. I find scum, I tell people they are scum, and I beat them to a pulp when they respond to me thinking they are scum. If Sentinel bothered to poke his head in the thread, I'd be beating the crap out of him at the moment. See TLM LI. @gonzaw: I don't like everyone voting all over the place, but I can see exactly what you're saying, so I'm going to ##vote [UoN]Sentinelbecause I think he's playing the scummiest at the moment. (This me not liking to vote is really something I need to get out of my usual play.) VE's disappearance from should be noted. As far as this change of heart, I don't see it as a change of heart. Not all bad play is scummy play. What I was trying to get across there is that I think that Sentinel is the better lynch out of the two of them. @johnny: I hate writing up cases against people. I pointed it out that I think he's scummy here. I think big posts are a waste of time and space, but that's probably why no one listens to me in these games. brb, writing up a big poast. Why, why, why, why, WHY? You give absolutely nothing for my case. "I'm playing scummy." No explanation. No rationale. No logic. This argument holds so little water it could be Sahara. A good chunk of his filter deals with why I'm bad but never offers any of his own advice. Strike two for not using the "quote" button. This makes it seem like he has something to hide, as well as pissing me off, because I (and any other observers) have to look what other people wrote and I can't read his damn filter. Strike three because another chunk, maybe 50%, can be summarized with "Shut the hell up and help me find scum." This to me looks more threatening than old Viscera did. ##Vote: ghost_403You all wanted me to post. Your wish has been granted.
He just posts this to defend himself. All the 1st points of this posts are him making excuses and defending himself against accusations.
He suspects sloosh for some arbitrary reason (sloosh saying "I like Ottoxlul"). Notice how he never mentions his thoughts about sloosh again in the whole game
His next point is an OMGUS against ghost. His reasoning for voting ghost is that ghost thinks he's scum and didn't post "reasoning" behind it, which is bogus since ghost did offer some reasoning behind it here:
On April 22 2012 07:50 ghost_403 wrote:@BJ + Show Spoiler + 4F doesn't deserve to die in any game. That guy was a genius at finding scum, he just didn't know it. VE is probably scum. Accusing gonzaw of a scumslip is just terribad, and someone of his experience should know better. Also, the idea of a JK working against the town is such a fashion is WTF bad. If he was a noob, I would give him a pass, but he's not. He should know better than that. Sentinel obviously rolled scum this game. His filter has nothing of content, and when layabout called him out, it took him 15 minutes to unlurk, at which point he added nothing to the conversation. He's here, but not contributing at all. I think he would make an excellent Day 1 lynch.
You know what else happens in that post? Just like I told many other players, he completely ignores the current discussion at hand He ignores everything about VE, the cases made against him, or the discussion about my "scumslip" and shit. He ignores the Mattchew vs Paqman deal, and he ignores the BH vs marv deal as well. His only motivation for making that post is to: -Defend himself -Offer a shitty vote on a player that has NOTHING to do with the current discussion
His post only serves to disrupt, misdirect discussion and respond to accusations so he's not in the spotlight.
His next posts are filler too, he doesn't contribute anything worthwhile. He then starts arguing with ghost, yet he never states if he thinks ghost is scum or not in those posts He just argues against ghost for the sake of arguing and defending himself, he's not scumhunting AT ALL, not even against those that he supposedly thinks is scum. (For example, these posts: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#443 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#454 )
This is the FIRST post in the whole game where he actually discusses the current events:
On April 22 2012 11:04 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:Marv, not counting his first 5-10 posts, hasn't actually done anything worth the lynch. I mean, if he was on the guillotine and I had to give ONE reason to lynch him, it would be fluffing. But I'll give him the benefit of the doubt because it pales in comparison to: + Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 20:13 BlazingJitsu wrote:Marvellosity. Let me talk to you. No correction let me talk AT you. what are you doing this game? Let's look at your filter+ Show Spoiler +On April 21 2012 09:05 marvellosity wrote:Mattchew, I thought we were gonna have a long, happy, and romp-filled relationship, then you make me click on multiple spoilers. On April 21 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote: I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/ On April 21 2012 10:33 marvellosity wrote: Holy gonzaw post. Nice ^--- These posts are short and worthless. Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 10:04 marvellosity wrote:On April 21 2012 09:58 Mementoss wrote: I agree with johnnywup I dont think this is productive or the time to talk about this hypothetical stuff. For all we know there is no vigs or trackers. Ya never know, could be 3 jailkeepers. You can't assume which roles are in the game. What? The vigilante-godfather-miller-weirdthing is the only strange mechanic in the game. Before things get properly rolling is absolutely the right time to talk about its implications. ^--- this post is actually correct, but interestingly, despite the fact that it's the right time to talk about the game mechanics... you never talk about the game mechanics. You ask some unhelpful questions and echo worthless obvious shit other people have said, but otherwise you're deadweight. Where's your contributions, Marv? Where's the discussion that it is "absolute the right time" to talk about? or do you only have inane questions? Show nested quote +On April 21 2012 10:29 marvellosity wrote:On April 21 2012 10:25 VisceraEyes wrote:On April 21 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote: I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/ Actually, a vigi only really clears himself by shooting a GOON. Hitting a GF will result in WIFOM about what happened to his shot (GFs are night-kill immune). Right, so scum could claim their shot was blocked on some random townie and WIFOM it up. Gotcha. So, are there in fact any GOOD circumstances to make a vig shot? ^=== HOLY SHIT this question is bad. holy shit. Of course there's good circumstances to make a vig shot! SHOOT A SCUM GUY. Christ. Even if you shoot a godfather, at least that's a data point (not quite a DT check's worth, because it might hasve been roleblock), and if you shoot a goon, hey, you shot a goon. Are you TRYING to be as unhelpful as possible? Are you TRYING to actively inhibit our blue roles? Surely if so it's through neither quality of prose nor persistence in communicating the ideas contained therein with your miniscule cumuluative post length. Typically this is where I say "you can do better, marv" but really, ANYONE could do better. You're shitting on the town and trying to build up a post count without saying ANYTHING. You're lurking in plain sight. ##vote: marvellosity.
-Blazinghand Especially the part about a good time to make a vig shot. First off, the tone of BH's post is like sulfuric acid to my lemon juice. I've never, ever, seen him post like that before. Second, BH should have more of a problem with VE. Marv asked a stupid question? Big fucking whoop. We've all done it at one point or another, it's not a death sentence. Show nested quote + Are you TRYING to be as unhelpful as possible? Are you TRYING to actively inhibit our blue roles? Surely if so it's through neither quality of prose nor persistence in communicating the ideas contained therein with your miniscule cumuluative post length.
Unwarranted, this is.
Is wishy washy regarding marv, and here is where the fun begins:
In the next few posts, Sentinel starts into a "suspicion-spree", spouting names of players and players and how he finds them slightly suspicious or is wishy washy regarding them
Here are the posts: BH: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#457 Daniel: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#459 Brood: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=23#460
He's wishy washy about them or suspicious about them, but doesn't mention them at all later (he only mentions Daniel and Brood one more time, nothing else), or pressure them, or discuss them, or posting more thoughts about them. He just soughts suspicion on those players and then forgets about them. His initial suspicion of sloosh falls in this category as well.
Now comes his vote on VE:
On April 22 2012 22:01 [UoN]Sentinel wrote: Ok. What the hell is a "non-cooperative Jailkeeper"?
Coupled with trying to sway townies so much over the course of this thread, I feel no shame in voting VE.
##Unvote: ghost_403 ##Vote: VisceraEyes
St. Dan is next on my list. As for Brood, his last post was fluff but I'll give him the benefit of the doubt.
Really? Here is his reasoning for voting VE:
Ok. What the hell is a "non-cooperative Jailkeeper"?
Coupled with trying to sway townies so much over the course of this thread, I feel no shame in voting VE.
Notice how this is the first time in the game he mentions VE He never mentioned when VE called me out and started his "lynch gonzaw!" crusades, nor mentioned him when I and sloosh posted cases against him, or when other people mentioned him. He mentions him only after he claims, and what does he say? Almost nothing. His "What the hell is a..." statement is useless since it doesn't state anything about his opinion on the matter. His "Coupled with......" statement is just very vague and doesn't really say anything about VE's alignment. Apart from that he doesn't say anything else about VE, he doesn't post more thoughts about VE, or about other current discussions about VE either.
Oh, yeah he also mentioned my case about Risen a little bit:
On April 23 2012 06:12 [UoN]Sentinel wrote:I'm reading gonzaw's post and the first two bullets in the end are characteristic of more than one person. Also, since a huge part of the argument is he's not posting like he usually does as town, could you pull some quotes depicting what you think Risen's "normal" posting is like. Or at least link me to the filter of a Mafia game he was in and I'll take a look. Also switched my vote in the thread because apparently I forgot to do that
...but is completely wishy washy about it, fails to make an actual opinion on it, and only serves to "ask" about Risen's past games. Then when layabout actually goes through the effort of linking to said games, Sentinel doesn't mention it at all nor mentions Risen at all.
Conclusion:
- Sentinel is just posting to avoid the spotlight. When he posts he either just defends himself against accusations, he posts fluff and filler about useless things (like that "QT=/=PM" post), or posts wishy-washy stances on other players
- He ignores all current discussions and posts things that are irrelevant to them. He talks about players that have nothing to do with the discussion (and like said before in a wishy-washy manner), he talks about current events way too late and doesn't provide any new (or even remotely useful) content regarding it
- Starts fighting with ghost to disrupt the thread, starts FoSing him but after they keep fighting he fails to take a stance on the ghost subject, he just argues with him for the sake of arguing.
- He is "suspicious" and wishy washy about a lot of players and never makes the effort of mentioning them again or contributing more thoughts about them.
- He votes VE without any reasoning and only based on VE "trying to sway townies", and nothing else
- Doesn't actively contribute, lurks and posts only sporadically.
He's scum and I'll vote for him tomorrow.
As you can see, there's a reason why I made that "I'm not sure about Risen" post before. Risen ignored Sentinel in his posts when Sentinel is one of the scummiest players around. That made me very suspicious of Risen, even though he's "acting all townie" (like I said earlier).
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Risen, I know I'll most likely be shot tonight either way, so me posting cases and thoughts right before the deadline or not doesn't bother me (specially since probably our only JK was lynched).
Specially since I'm in a hurry to post all my thoughts, cases, scumreads, etc before the deadline hits, so I'm quickly reading filters and doing stuff. If I do all of that together right before the deadline I may not have time and may miss it (and probably die and not be able to post it), so I'm posting them as I'm making.
I think Zephird is scum, and hopefully I have time to post my thoughts on him as well.
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Wait, when the hell is the deadline? Was it 20 minutes ago or do I have shitty clocks? o.O
About BJ: Also people, I advise you to completely ignore Blazinghand. He's playing to his "useless and aggressive townie in large games" meta, and I think he's town. Meh, he could be scum but surely that will be apparent soon, so if you don't think he's scum just ignore him please. He'll most likely just post "Marv is scum" in every post of his own and contribute on nothing else.
About sloosh: I am somewhat suspicious of sloosh, because of his lack of activity, and because when he posts he just happens to go either against VE or against Midnight. He contributed only once since he made his case against VE. And although that post was not bad ( http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=31#616 ) he didn't contribute at all other than that. Once VE was lynched, he also failed to comment about it and went straight ahead to cast suspicion on Midnight. I find that kind of behaviour suspicious because scum are most likely to do it (as soon as there's a lynch scum want to cast suspicion on someone else as soon as possible, and don't really care about commenting about other things).
sloosh I know you can do better, and this isn't enough to convince me you are scum so please step up your game
About MG: I don't find him scummy, but I didn't really read his filter too much. I liked his activity level and contributions earlier on D1, when the whole "plan" thing was discussed. He didn't really contribute that much to make himself look townie later, but for now I don't see anything really bad with him hesitating to vote VE. If I live tomorrow I'll take another look at it.
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Okay I don't think I'll have time to make a case against Zephird before the post goes up, so here it goes:
About Zephird: What I first found suspicious about him was how he only had 3 posts in the whole game like half-way through D1 (here http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=329128¤tpage=29#561 )
Then he posts filler, one-liners that don't contribute at all, etc. Of course he made that horrible last-minute bandwagon-jump on VE, and spent almost all of his time after the lynch to defend himself.
I didn't see him scumhunt at all, nor take active part of discussions. He lurks, yet when he posts he posts one-liners and fluff, which means he isn't actually inactive and doesn't have time/etc to post (in which case his posts would have more contributions) but just posts to avoid suspicion and to fly under the radar.
He's a fine lynch as well, although I'd prefer to lynch Sentinel first
Hopefully I'm posting this before the post goes up
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Final thoughts:
About marv:
I'm not convinced by a marv lynch at all (at least not before Sentinel/Zephird/maybe Risen). He's active and contributing IMO. His vote against VE doesn't look too good, but I'm giving him the benefit of the doubt because of his level of activity and contributions so far. So please ignore BJ.
About Ottoxlul:
I don't really find him scummy, but he's not contributing much. If he's a smurf or a more experienced player (even if he isn't a smurf) he could easily be scum and trying to just appear he's contributing. For instance, I found it odd how he seemed absent yet appeared instantly once VE was lynched. Just take a close look at this guy that's what I'm asking.
About Daniel:
Geez if what other people said is true (he's posting in other games but not on this one) he's VERY LIKELY scum. Hopefully a vig shoots him tonight (although it's unlikely if nobody claimed a shot by now). He's a good lynch as well, but since he doesn't participate at all I'd prefer to leave him be for now since his wagon won't bring too much discussion
About Brood:
Not as scummy as Daniel, but damn you need to post more son. Scummy anyways, so keep an eye on him as well.
Oh, and I don't think Mattchew is scum anymore, and I'd say you should treat these players as town: -Paqman -Mattchew -layabout -Janaan -Mementoss -Maybe ghost
Of course put them under scrutiny every once in a while (specially if they survive til late-game), but I don't want any of them lynched soon AT ALL.
Okay, I think that's all
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Oh yeah, BM please step up your game. I don't really think your ninja-vote makes you "auto-scum", but damn it doesn't make you look good.
I agreed with ghost that it's more likely you are town, or it's just something completely irrelevant to your alignment and you do it just because it's crazy and that's how you roll. But a lot of people (maybe even scum) may try to lynch you (if you are town) so start contributing.
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So, this is my proposed scumteam for now:
Daniel, Zephird, Sentinel, Risen
At any rate, take out Risen and put BM, Brood, or maybe even sloosh in his place.
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Oh another thing:
I'm not really that convinced layabout is town. I mean, the tone of his posts, his activity, etc make it seem that way. However I don't really know any game he was scum, and apparently he's a good player (could be considered a "vet" of sorts perhaps) so he could play this good as scum (because I don't see him contributing that much either).
If someone could give me a link to a game he was scum I'd be great.
(also, where the hell is the Day post? lol)
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Geez people this place is deserted, thanks for letting me quadruple-post
Here's something interesting I found:
On April 23 2012 09:53 Zephirdd wrote: because it's fun to create a scumlist prior doing any analysis or whatsoever, MidnightGladius marvellosity PaqMan --insert unknown scum here-- List done out of pure feelings and zero evidence or analysis and should not be taken seriously at all
Also, may I remind you that my vote was completely and ultimately worthless, as in, even if I didn't vote VE would die. Also, keep this in your mind: if I knew VE was going to die already, and if I already knew he was a JK(as in, if I was scum), why the fuck would I instantly jump right at the deadline and put a worthless vote on him when I could simply vote, say, marvellosity?
Suddenly, I'm not looking that bad anymore, am I?
Also I agree with BMurray being vigged. I'm not sure if he is town or scum, but it would be better if he just died and we didn't had to care about him anymore.
Please Zephird tell us, if you were scum, why would you vote marvellosity? If you were scum, and marvellosity was scum, then placing a vote on marv could get him lynched right? I mean, you posted like 1 or more hours before the deadline, a wagon on marv could have been created there.
So, are you saying that if you were scum, then marvellosity would be town and you would put a vote on another townie other than VE? How would you know this?
Oh I know, you are scum, and you know marv is town.
So, anyways, it's subtle enough that it may or may not be important (I hate having my reads dependant on "scumslips"); but because it's subtle, I know it's something scum would not notice. Either way, a townie could have done it as well, but considering I think you are scum even not taking it into account I doubt it.
Also, you are saying that voting VE at the last minute instead of voting marvellosity...makes it more likely you are town?
Geez, when was the last time I heard something similar like that?
Oh right, here: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=325046¤tpage=57#1130
Again, not something decisive, but something I noticed.
PRE-EDIT: Oh well,.... lol thanks Zephird (what timing!)
Here is the filter from layabout in Purgatory Mafia if anybody's interesting (I'll read it later): http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=233798
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No, we don't punish people if that means potentially losing us the game. We should lynch to win, not lynch to punish.
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Vigs, if any of you exist now it's a good time to claim as any (I assume scum can't change their kill by now).
Oh, forgot about another thing:
About johnny:
To be honest, I think he's town. At the start of the game, he was very eager to discuss the plans and things about the vigs and shit. He posts without fear, wants people to answer to him (for instance about his "plan"), etc; and I doubt he would do that as scum. He's active and when people call him out he's there to respond. He posts some one-liners and some filler posts, but given his activity those are just a part of his filter, and considering he posts quite a lot it makes it seem he's eager to post.
Yeah maybe he flip-flops on his votes, or with his reads, or sheeps people, but well he's been doing that all these past few games, and that doesn't mean he's scum.
So no, add him to the "He WON'T get lynched on D2" list.
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Wait:
On April 24 2012 08:48 BlazingJitsu wrote:As an aside to Marv, you're scum and I'm gonna make sure you die like scum. If you flip town I will literally eat my hat. IRL.
-Blazinghand
So...does this mean marvellosity is confirmed town?
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On April 24 2012 10:43 BlazingJitsu wrote:Show nested quote +On April 24 2012 10:42 gonzaw wrote:Wait: On April 24 2012 08:48 BlazingJitsu wrote:As an aside to Marv, you're scum and I'm gonna make sure you die like scum. If you flip town I will literally eat my hat. IRL.
-Blazinghand So...does this mean marvellosity is confirmed town? Does that look like an IRL photo of me eating my hat?
-Blazinghand
You know, every time you tell someone "If you flip town I will literally eay my hat", I just assume they will indeed flip town. I mean, you did that twice already (when you were town) and they both flipped town, so I don't see why it won't work again. Of course this is assuming you are town again, but well I think you are.
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Well, scum can't change their kill right now, right?
So we can discuss all we want without influencing the night kill, so this is the perfect time to argue and shit.
What do you guys think of Sentinel, Zephird and Risen? Discuss..
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Just because I'm bored, I'll tell you guys what that program I made in LI tells us:
At night, in a 15v4 situation, town loses in 6 cycle/s with 3 misslynch/es
Yeah, we have a better D2 than in LI
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What is "twilight"? (I thought twilight was that thing that comes before night, not day )
Scum can't change their night actions, in fact nobody can change their night actions. Whatever you want to say will have 0% effect on the night actions. Also if you were to die tonight, you won't be able to say those things tomorrow, and they may be important.
Why do you guys fear that so much?
@sloosh: Yes, I know they have 2 KP, I used this "pseudo-KP" table for this game:
1 scum = 1 KP 2 scum = 1 KP 3 scum = 2 KP 4 scum = 2 KP
Assuming we hit the GF first, then a Goon, then a GF, then a Goon, etc...
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Is it against the rules to talk in this time?
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Ehmm, I don't want anybody to be a dbag to anybody, I just want people to post thoughts and shit before they are (potentially) killed.
But okay, if it goes against the spirit of the game then I guess it's fine (but to be honest it gets kind of boring >_> ).
Will Day 2 end 48 hours from the Day post, or 48 hours from when the Day post should have been posted? (as in, will it end 44 hours from now or more than 48?)
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Woot
GG Town (Or is it GL? lol )
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Bloo llol ooaoasidasdoawojaoksjdaw
This game gave me Alzheimers
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johnny, why did you leave your vote on ghost? Paqman, why did you make a last minute switch on Sentinel correcting your spelling? Risen, why did you make a last minute switch from a atownie to anotehr townie¿
MAtthcewlf dslfjiofefjoaijsfjsdf
...sorry, that's going to happen every once in a while
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See, should have lynched Risen on D1 like I wanted to >_>
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Well, first game I lose. Considering how this game went I can't say I didn't expect that though.
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Wait, are you guys sure the scum team wasn't Ottox/Sentinel/BroodKing/Janaan?
Please recheck your notes iGrok.
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johnny, you were on the right track at some point last day.
If you had taken a step back and analyzed the claims and different scenarios, you could have realized that if mattchew is GF BM is Goon and viceversa. After that, if you had analyzed the context (ANALYZE THE CONTEXT!!!! BLAH! ) you could have seen Sent's claim wouldn't make any sense as scum, while Matt's would. Then you would know Sent was town, you would know Matt was scum and GF, so you would know BM was Goon, so you would have tried to lynch BM instead.
Also, Ottox ALSDHQOJHIADSFAKVCJAIUDHAklsjdnalkejfhsdfdffdla
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Didn't Blue out Matt as scum when he said "Matt is playing a really good game" like in D2? lol
Well, at least I got my town reads right (Mementos/johnny/marv/ghost/Janaan/Paqman) so I'm happy about it (well, I had them right at least before my mind melted though)
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I said this in the Obs QT, but like Matt's claim didn't make any sense to me because he or BM would get lynched like 100% (if town was smart, thanks for the guy that pointed out that false assumption of mine >_> ), and that would have meant that they would lose even faster.
I didn't really believe they could have convinced anyone to vote Sentinel >_>
Also, the most optimal lynch (if you don't really know if Sent or Matt was scum) was to lynch Risen.
*If he had flipped town, Matt would be confirmed scum along BM, and Sent could have jailed BM and then lynch both of them *If he had flipped scum, then Sent jails BM as well. *If there is a kill: Sent confirmed scum (if he was town, BM would have been Goon) It would be 3v1 on D7 to find the remaining Goon *If there is no kill: It will be 5v2 on D6, then town lynches sentinel. *If he flips scum, then Matt/BM confirmed town and they can search the remaining Goon in a 4v1 D7, they even have 2 lynches to find him. *If he flips town, then Matt/BM confirmed scum. It will be a 3v2 D7 and they lynch both Matt/BM and town wins the game.
If town had followed this, there was no way they would have lost, and at worst (if Sent was scum) they would have arrived at a 3v1 MYLO to find the remaining Goon.
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Here's the thing I don't get:
...why are we cursing against each other instead of cursing at Ottox?
+ Show Spoiler +lol jk no cursing, love all of you guys :D
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On May 05 2012 09:36 Mattchew wrote: everything can be explained with how I explained it. If i was actually vig and i had shot risen, and he didn't die, I wouldn't claim that immediately, because as gonzaw said Risen couldn't possibly be stupid enough to last minute switch as scum if ottox/zeph were both town. This means ottox/risen's alignment would have had to be the same, or Risen is stupid. If I am watching someone that could be goon and takes away the last scum KP get lynched, then why would I claim. I keep town on a need to know basis as town.
You can argue that I shoulda/coulda/woulda shot earlier but thats just you putting your own thoughts into my head.
Even if your claim "makes sense" if you were town, it also makes even more sense if you were mafia. Also Sent's claim doesn't make sense if he was mafia (I've already explained the reasons in the obs QT), therefore he was town and you were not.
Also, I've said it before, but I had a feeling Risen made the last-minute switch to incriminate Ottox once he was lynched... ...not that he'd make the switch to gain more cred once Ottox was lynched. Still that was mindfucking.
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johnny, you had your vote on ghost you can't really complain >_>
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Sent....if you were in fact ACTIVE and POSTING on N1...why didn't you send a night action?
Also, I'd ask for iGrok/Blue to make an objective analysis of the game as it went on, but I'm sure they suffer from PTSD after this game and I don't want them to relieve their memories of it
EDIT: Also Ottox, why did you claim scum?
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Oh, now that I reread the Obs QT I remember when I made this post:
How about a BM+BK+Daniel+Risen scumteam then? >_> They will be called "The Teenage Mutant Ninja Mafia"
I made it as a joke and ended up getting 3/4 scum right......
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Also, I was right with my theory that those that defended my plan were either Goons or confirmed town (no GF would defend my plan).
EDIT: Wait, I completely forgot about this post in the Obs QT lol!:
By Bluelightz If they Mislynch now its lylo tommorow if scum get a kill (which they will since JK is sentinel and they can kill him no problemo.)
Seriously, after Matt fake-claimed I totally forgot that Blue already told us Sent was JK >_>
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Hey! I wanted to lynch you instead!
Damn, I wish I hadn't been away at that time, maybe I could have convinced people to lynch Risen
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(Gonna take this discussion here...doesn't seem to fit in the "Mafia Awards" thread at all >_> )
On May 06 2012 11:58 Mattchew wrote: Just wanna say that gonzaw if you believe you and pac actually caught me day1 (with the reasoning given) you guys are gonna mislynch me alot in the future
It's your job as scum not to get yourself caught like that >_>
Anyways, I had my reasons for suspecting you, which where basically you ignoring current thread discussion and making a very bad case one someone completely irrelevant, and some other stuff (don't remember why Paqman thought you were scum). I haven't played with you as town yet, so I can't really say if you really do that as town too, but I'm gonna go out in a limb and say you don't, at least not in the way that you did that caught my attention
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I dunno why I posted this in the "Mafia Awards" thread, but I'll post it here as well
"Trolling" and distancing yourself from other scumbuddies are not "absurd" plays at all.
As in, yes you could say that trolling and saying something like "I'm vig...wait I'm not" or "I'm scum people!" or something could be considered "absurd"; but it's very instantaneous and easy to do, by both town and scum, and it doesn't have any lasting or meaningful consequences (other than people berating you for trolling) to be considered absurd either.
For instance, Risen's switch did have lasting consequences, mostly that everybody thought he was scum sacrificing himself for quite a time (at least until the "that play is so absurd he must be town" reasoning kicked in).
Also, the point of these "absurd" plays, is that they don't contradict the assumption that you are town. If you start saying "Okay people I'm scum, you got me just lynch me" and then 10 hours later you say "Oh I was trolling there sorry" nobody will think you are town at all.
Also, the other thing about these absurd plays, is not only about other people determining your alignment just because of it, it's about if they further a scum agenda or not (if you were scum). The absurd plays I'm talking about are the ones that don't, or at least don't in a preliminary analysis.
For instance, in a preliminary analysis, Risen's switch doesn't further a scum agenda if he were scum. There is 1 townie getting lynched, and the other one is a townie too. He knows that if one of them is lynched and flips green it's likely the other will be misslynched in the future. He also has his vote already placed and is fine with his current position. Making the switch to kill Zephird before Ottox wouldn't push an apparent scum agenda, because he knows that the one he saves will likely get lynched without his intervention either, and the only thing he is doing is making it VERY likely that he will be lynched himself by that action alone. "Would scum take this risk just because?" The answer is "NO".
However, if townies analyze this above situation, then they will reach the same conclusion. Therefore they will conclude Risen is town. That is a nice "absurd" reward if he were to make that play, which is what I'm talking about.
Another example.I analyzed Midnights switch vote towards ghost and unvote, and I tried to come up with a scum agenda. "Why would a scum Midnight do this?". He could have done it to disrupt the thread a little bit, but nothing else, he doesn't have any reward whatsoever. Now, what would he be risking? He risks everybody FoSing him because he FoSed someone else without any reason at all, and then unvoted him immediately and dropped the subject entirely. People get confused and therefore suspicious, and lo and behold he got lynched afterwards. "Would scum take this risk just because?". The answer is "NO".
However, if townies reach this conclusion, they will conclude he's town. That's a nice "absurd" reward again, so if he takes the risk and does that he can get people to think he's town.
There are similarities in these situations too. If Risen was scum, and hadn't done that play, he would have been fine. He wouldn't be likely a lynch candidate soon for instance, and could still play normally later. It was not necessary at all to make an "absurd" play if he was scum (he wasn't in the chopping block for instance). Same with Midnight, not doing that wouldn't have caused him much troubles if he was scum. As in, he would have less suspicion on him, and could do something later, it wasn't anything definitive so it wasn't necessary to do so at all either.
However they differ a lot in one thing: the chance that townies will actually analyze the situation. I don't think nobody ever decided to analyze Midnight's ghost vote and it's motivation. No townie playing the game would either. Why? Because it was very subtle, not many people could even have picked it up when trying to determine Midnight's alignment. Another thing is that said action makes it easier for people to think as just "scummy" while not analyzing it's motivation/intent, it's just another "scummy" act and nothing else. Meaning if people were to actually try to analyze it, it's more likely they would analyze it wrong, or at least not in the previous way I mentioned.
However, most if not all townies would analyze Risen's action. For one it was a game-changing one, and it was pretty apparent, it wasn't subtle at all. People would obviously try to analyze it. Another thing, is that the analysis of it would be pretty straight-forward. People would instantly think "If Risen is scum, then he wouldn't have done this if Ottox was town", meaning they would instantly figure out the crux of said "absurd" play.
I guess this is what made Risen's action more viable for a scum to take. No sane scum would take Midnight's option, because of what I said before, he could NEVER gain any reward from using an "absurd" play, because nobody would figure out it's absurd in the first place. People would instantly figure out Risen's action was absurd (if he was scum), so I guess he had more motivation to do so.
Again I fucked up at not trying to analyze this last thing (that Risen would instantly know people would say "Darn it's impossible he's scum because of it"), so yeah I thought he was town because of it later
I guess Risen just has enormous balls and doesn't care about the risks, and had enough luck it worked. I guess I'll be expecting these things from him in later games.
Anyways, I guess now the point is not only trying to discover these "absurd" plays, but also trying to analyze if they are pretty apparent or not, and if people are likely to interpret it as "absurd" or not. If the answer is NO to both of them, then it's very likely you are dealing with a townie (or a scum who did it unintentionally, somehow). If the answer to any of them is YES, then it's more difficult to figure it out, so it's better to just not use it to assume he's town and disregard it until more info comes up.
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On May 06 2012 12:16 Jitsu wrote: I don't think anyone was on to Mattchew. People that say they were are blowing smoke around. You define yourself by your actions; but by your words you speak after the game is over. Hindsight is 20/20, and regardless, I think I can specifically recall a set number of people naming scum teams in the Obs QT, and Mattchew wasn't on them at all.
You played a good Mafia game Mattchew. You had me fooled. I thought you were actually town. GJ mang.
Yeah, after D2 nobody was on Mattchew. But I was talking about D1.
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Well, yeah. You have to take into account who does that though.
For instance, if it was Mattchew who did the "switch thing and then panic and ask town to lynch him" act, I wouldn't possibly believe he was town.
Like I said, if you are scum and you want to make an "absurd" act, it doesn't have to contradict the idea of you being town, and that's dependant on: -Previous behaviour that game -Meta
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I don't remember calling you confirmed town on D1
Right before I died I did say I stopped thinking you were scum though...
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