TL Mafia 'Area' LIII
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VisceraEyes
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VisceraEyes
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Make it in 12 hours and you've got a deal. GOGOGO | ||
VisceraEyes
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VisceraEyes
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On April 20 2012 22:26 Ace wrote: holy shit, the roster for this game = flame fest | ||
VisceraEyes
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VisceraEyes
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Then I could exact my revenge on the hydraScum! MUAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAHHAHA | ||
VisceraEyes
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On April 21 2012 07:14 BlazingJitsu wrote: Here is my response: + Show Spoiler [Big Image] + No other context will be necessary. This image stands for itself. -Blazinghand BH wins the thread. Maybe next time guys. | ||
VisceraEyes
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Scum were going to win sir. WE WERE GOING TO WIN!!! | ||
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+ Show Spoiler + <3 | ||
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On April 21 2012 09:48 layabout wrote: So you support us not knowing the alignment of the player we lynch. You also support not using KP in town hands. VE as far as i am aware, vigilante shots hit mafia more often than lynches do. Shows what you're aware of. Games with me in them, lynches hit scum by DEFAULT bro....you know, since we're making shit up and spouting off random untrue statistics. | ||
VisceraEyes
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Feel free to disagree, but like I said - that's just my opinion. | ||
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What do you think we should do about the Vigs BM? Should they call their shot in advance to give possible trackers a chance to do their work? Should they just do what they do and claim after? How should town handle such a beast? | ||
VisceraEyes
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On April 21 2012 10:23 marvellosity wrote: I've tried to think of a bunch of different scenarios and I've not yet managed to picture one where mafia couldn't claim the same situation. The only way a vigi really clears himself is by shooting scum :/ Actually, a vigi only really clears himself by shooting a GOON. Hitting a GF will result in WIFOM about what happened to his shot (GFs are night-kill immune). | ||
VisceraEyes
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On April 21 2012 10:28 gonzaw wrote: Great, game started Important! About vigs! All vigs should claim Why? Because of this:
So people, any thoughts about this? I think it's the optimal course of action. Imagine we have like 4 vig claims, then we can use them as we will, we can coordinate night shots without fear of a RBer, and we can use said night actions to determine the alignment of said vigs (we tell them who to shoot and see if the kill goes through or not, and who was his target, etc), and we can better coordinate shots as if they were lynches as well. We won't have a lone vig shooting someone random at night and him flipping town creating havoc. All vigs should discuss their targets and face scrutiny if their reasoning for shooting said target fails, etc. I'm willing to discuss other factors, cons and pros of this, so feel free to contribute Scum start off with an information advantage. Any plan that involves giving information to scum (like, who all the vigs in the game are) is a net loss for town 100% of the time. I'll address your points individually, for ease of comprehension. 1) There are no roleblockers, therefore a claimed blue will be able to use his ability at night no matter what This is untrue. A claimed blue will PROBABLY get to use his ability at night, but he'll fail if a JK jails him. 2) If said vig ever gets lynched, he will flip GF. If he doesn't claim at all, or claims vig right before getting lynched, then it will instill confusion about whether he was actually GF or not. That confusion isn't alleviated by all vigs claiming. He's still going to flip GF whether he's a vig or a fake-claiming GF and him claiming isn't going to make that any easier to unravel (especially if either of the GFs claim vig too.) 3) If all vigs claim beforehand, we will KNOW that they will flip GF, so the confusion about their flip is removed. This doesn't say anything and is patently untrue - we're still not going to know if they're a fake-claiming GF or a vig. Claiming doesn't change this at all. Period. 0 for 3 so far...I hope this starts going better sir... 4) It will force the GFs to claim vig as well. Why? Because if all vigs claim, but then a vig claims that he shot someone, but that someone doesn't die, if the first player is confirmed vig, then the second player is CONFIRMED GODFATHER. If GFs want to avoid that situation, they will have to claim vig. This is also not true. If a vig claims a shot and the person doesn't die, then that person MIGHT be a Godfather, or that person MIGHT have been protected via jailing, or the VIG HIMSELF might have been roleblocked by jailing. You're making assumptions and labeling them as facts and they're all bad Gonzaw. 5) If all vigs claim, since there isn't any roleblocker, they will be free to shoot anybody they want. If there is town consensus on who to shoot, said vigs could take that into account to shoot lurkers/scummy people of their choice at night. Even if vigs want to shoot anybody in particular, they don't need to hide that info since scum can't RB him, so they can just discuss with town about said player and he can say he will shoot him in advance. Vigs are free to shoot anybody they want anyway and them all claiming has NOTHING TO DO WITH THAT. This isn't a point in favor of claiming, it's repeating information redundantly and padding your post. I'm almost done, I hope... 6) This previous arrangement with Town-Vigs will make is to that Jailkeepers DON'T jail those players that vigs said they would shoot. That way the JK's power isn't wasted (and could cause confusion if he succesfully saves a vig shot, but doesn't claim (i.e people will think the target is GF)). Also, since scum is less likely to shoot vig targets, it means that the JK has a smaller pool of players to choose from, and has a higher chance of saving a scum KP at night This is like, the only thing I can even make any sense of. If town agrees to a mass-vig-claim, then I'd have to agree that JK's keep their grubby hands off chosen vig targets. The only thing I don't agree with here is the bolded statement. It assumes that claimed vigs are all town (because if the claimed Vig is scum, scum will HAVE to shoot that vig target, no?) and only limits the pool of players to choose from if JKs agree with the notion of keeping their hands off vig targets (which I don't want to assume...too many assumptions.) 7) If a vig were to claim a target at night, and said target doesn't die, either the vig is a GF/Goon in disguise, or his target is GF. Meaning we have a confirmed scum in either of those 2, and can lynch either of them Again, you're discounting the possibility of a JK interfering. This is an untrue statement about the information we'd get from the flip (or lack of flip) skewed in favor of vigs claiming. 8) Vigilantes can shoot each other as well if they think there was a fake-claim. It follows just like a normal kill. If one vig shoots another claimed vig, then if the vig was a real claim, he will flip GF. If he was Goon he will flip Goon, and if he was GF he won't flip (creating the same situation as above). AGAIN WITH THE DISCOUNTING OF THE POSSIBILITY OF A JK 9) If GF claims vig, then they can't shoot on their own. They either need to "No-Kill" 1 KP and claim it's theirs, while claiming that the scum KP got saved by a JK, or claim their target is GF. Both are bad for scum (they have to give info they wouldn't have wanted to give otherwise) and good for us if we use the information wisely. I'm honestly not even sure what this point is trying to say. It's true that GFs can't kill to corroborate their story - but there's nothing preventing a GOON from fake-claiming vig, especially since they wouldn't have to worry about trackers. Also, scum aren't "giving us info" by lying about what happened - they're introducing WIFOM. 10) If scum are complacent (they don't fake-claim, or do so but don't make other plans, etc) then we'll have a small circle (or even 1) of town-vigs to our disposal and we can do whatever we want, and most likely obliterate scum (based on the previous points too) Having a claimed 1-shot vig doesn't do anything to help us "obliterate scum". Even if only 1 town vig claims, how does that narrow anything down? Are we just automatically assuming the claim is good? Are we giving dude a pass? Why wouldn't scum fake-claim when you put it that way? Ultimately, I dislike the notion - and your post has only reinforced that sentiment for my part. | ||
VisceraEyes
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On April 21 2012 11:05 gonzaw wrote: Okay, one more thing and I'll stop posting now (just want to get everything out in the open as soon as possible) VE's plan is to kill all claimed vigs. This means that no real vig will claim, and no scum will fake-claim either. So what happens if we lynch someone and he flips GF then? What info would you get in that case? He could be either vig or GF and we don't know since no vig or GF would have claimed (since they would have been instantly lynched). Imagine it's LYLO, we are trying to lynch someone, and he claims vig. What do we do? Do we follow the "lynch all vigs" rule too? But if he is indeed vig we would lose, so what to do? If we follow our plan, we will know beforehand that there are certain players whose flip won't tell us anything (the claimed vigs, assuming no Goons claim). We will know what to do with that, we can prepare. We can also use other claimed vigs to try and shoot him at night instead. The most important thing is that if vigs claim beforehand, there will be less chaos than if they claimed right before getting lynched, or they were lynched and flipped GF And remember, if there's chaos scum can do whatever the hell they want. If someone claims vig right before being lynched the chaos created basically gives scum the reins to do what they want (either lynch that vig, or lynch someone else, or NL, etc) WHOOPS!!! ##Vote: gonzaw (for real this time ) | ||
VisceraEyes
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GG no re gonzaw. | ||
VisceraEyes
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But that's speculation we can save for after gonzaw's flip. In the meantime, VOTES ON GONZAW!!! FOR THE TOWN!!! | ||
VisceraEyes
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Now go be a good lad and vote for gonzaw. | ||
VisceraEyes
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That's all I'm going to say on the matter. Feel free to continue discussing this ad nauseum. I'm town this game, so I'm going to die N1 unless some super intelligent JK protects me. Thank you, that is all. | ||
VisceraEyes
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I've made my opinion known. I feel like it town wants to adopt this ridiculous claim plan, then JKs and Trackers are going to be forced to participate. I wouldn't advocate participating in the plan in the first place. Anyway, my vote on gonzaw stands - especially now that he thinks I'm scum because I disagree with a mass-claim plan. Unbelievable. | ||
VisceraEyes
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For anyone who's all like "Hey I don't think scum would stick their neck out with some plan", I say only "OH REALLY FOOL? You don't think scum would be willing to trade a modicum of suspicion on them for the identities of all of our vigs?" He's pushing a scum agenda in trying to fish for claims, and I for one will NOT ALLOW IT! | ||
VisceraEyes
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On April 22 2012 07:13 slOosh wrote: slOosh's "VisceraEyes is scum" case. First item: VE's rebuttal of Gonzaw's plan.. Notice how VE does not actually discuss the pros and cons of the plan itself, but instead chooses to only talk about how unfeasible it is based solely on the idea of a non-cooperative JK (which might not even exist). His point by point breakdown ,which he says is for "ease of comprehension", is actually an excuse to set up strawmen, as he avoids talking about the plan itself but rather nitpicks at each point on inconsequential points. Go read the post. If you can honestly see any of the points being valid discussion of gonzaw's plan, then let's discuss that. But all I see is "analysis" used as an excuse to paint gonzaw in a bad light. No actual valid points. Second item: VE's "scumslip" catch If you look at gonzaw's post in question, you will see that he consistently uses plural pronouns "we", and so it would be totally natural to use "our" to describe the plan. Yet VE chooses to vote after catching this "scumslip", rather than demonstrating to town how gonzaw is proposing an anti-town agenda in the giant "analysis" of his rebuttal. Third item: VE's evasion when asked for clarification The post linked is the start of the evasion. Watch how Ottoxlol brings up how VE's rebuttal doesn't make much sense, and multiple times VE evades it without really wanting to flesh out his reasoning and discuss his stance. Townies aren't scared to discuss their stances - only mafia are scared of scrutiny as they fear their scum agenda being revealed. More prodding and VE gives this "explanation" To which Ottoxlol points out how illogical that is Final item: VE's apathy, misrepresentation and fearmongering (no link as there are 2 quotes) Note how VE clearly has a stance (thinks gonzaw's plan is ridiculous and terrible) but doesn't actually move to help explain and convince town why it is bad. Instead, it is like "you guys do what you want, I don't advise it, it is clearly pro scum, but you guys decide if you want to do it or not". Why wouldn't a townie be more vocal and start convincing people why it is bad if they truly believed it was pro scum agenda? Why would they be so apathetic? Fearmongering comes in the first line - it is true that this plan outs our vigs, but really - to say that it "gives scum all the information they need" is quite the exaggeration, and as discussed by others, the information isn't that valuable (cf. Ottoxlol's post in my third point). Misrepresentation is in the last line - gonzaw thinks that VE is scum because of his apathy and focus on irrelevant points and lack of proper scumhunting. (here and here) Again, he hasn't bothered to explain why this information is detrimental to town, and is instead misinterpreting it to make it seem like scum agenda. His whole beef is centered on how this plan outs our vigs, but he has never bothered explaining why that is bad, and intentionally does not acknowledge how it is different from other mass claims because it is actually 1) only making vigs claim, and 2) vigs have the death miller mechanic, which is the crux of gonzaw's plan. Conclusion: VisceraEyes has displayed a lack of scumhunting, misrepresentation of facts, fearmongering, evasion, apathy to town agenda and illogical arguments. Therefore, he must be scum. ##Vote VisceraEyes I am a non-cooperative Jailkeeper. I'm reading through the thread now, but before you put any more thought into a case against me, my view on gonzaw's plan was skewed from the viewpoint of a non-cooperative JK because I am a non-cooperative JK. I don't want vigs to claim because I don't feel like surrendering my power for town's use. I just did that same thing in Space Station Mafia and I didn't want to do it this game. Now, I understand that claiming does has this exact same effect, so I guess we're at a stalemate. The good news is, I'm town and now that I'm back I intend to help find scum. ^^ /salute | ||
VisceraEyes
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On April 20 2012 12:44 Bill Murray wrote: I was wondering if this game was going to start On April 21 2012 10:15 Bill Murray wrote: We're not going to be able to outguess the mod based upon the numbers we sent in On April 22 2012 12:42 Bill Murray wrote: ##vote: VisceraEyes Errr.....yeah. ##Unvote: gonzaw ##Vote: Bill Murray That was easy. Any bets on who else is scum on my wagon? | ||
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On April 22 2012 13:47 PaqMan wrote: VE why the hell would you claim. So that you guys know that whatever vig claim you come up with doesn't have my support, as the Town Jailkeeper. It has nothing to do with any wagon on me or slOosh's case on me, or anything. It has everything to do with my disagreement with gonzaw's vig claim plan. | ||
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Anyone who disagrees with my reasoning for voting gonzaw. It was super serious, but whatever. I'd rather lynch Bill Murray anyway. | ||
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On April 22 2012 14:45 johnnywup wrote: VE why would you claim...if you're the only jailkeeper then you're going to be killed tonight. Then I'll just have to find the whole scumteam today, huh johnny? I win with town - I don't win by surviving until the end. I was going to die N1 anyway - this way we don't waste today wondering if I'm town or not. | ||
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On April 22 2012 21:15 layabout wrote: First off. ##unvote marvellosity BH's case was good when you consider how early on it was posted. The case was centred around the idea that marvellosity was actively lurking (at the beginning of the game. Marvellosity is no longer actively lurking I think that marvellosity has tried to be more open and has reacted to BH's increasingly ridiculous pressure in a very town like way. This BM wagon doesn't appear to have any grounding. It is a mindless vote on a lurker, the sort that usually hits town and is easy for scum to hop onto. If you are on that wagon please consider that there are definitely town lurkers and if you pick one at random you are likely to pick town. If somebody else picks a lurker and you support them then there is not only the chance that they will pick town by chance but the chance that they are scum and they are deliberately picking tow. Thirdly, The only reason to not vote for VisceraEyes is the following: You believe that he is telling the truth about his claim. If you believe that then you also have to believe that VisceraEyes would make that appalling move as the real town Jailkeeper. My vote on BM is not random. It's based on the fact that he was semi-active leading up to the game started and he's made 3 in-game posts, all of which are devoid of content and completely neutral...yet he jumps on a VE vote based on nothing but "he doesn't like gonzaw's plan!" My claim isn't "an appalling move" or "a bad move"...it's not a move at all. It's a claim, because it explains my reasoning for gonzaw's mass-claim idea, and because I don't give a shit about my role. Roles aren't going to find scum, scumhunting and logic are going to find scum. I think Bill Murray is scum, I don't think he's a "random lurker" and I've made that abundantly clear. The scum are Bill Murray, gonzaw, MidnightGladius, layabout as far as I can see. I want to kill BM first. | ||
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MY VOTE IS ON SCUM! YOURS SHOULD BE TOO! | ||
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I disagreed with gonzaw's plan because it demanded cooperation of ALL of the town power roles. It ties up THE ENTIRE TOWN FORCE in directing vigs (which are one-shot by the way) toward their one target each in the hopes of killing one scum each (if town is lucky). A mass-claim would be viable if the vigs weren't 1-shot, but they are. So no, I don't agree with using MY role according to town's wishes because at this point, there's no way to know if town sentiment is being swayed by scum. Since I know my own alignment, I'm going to trust my own judgement on how to use my power. Now, you disagree with the manner in which I claimed. Cool story bro. I don't care. If you want to lynch me for claiming a town PR then go for it - you're not the only person on TL who feels like D1 claims are BS. BC comes to mind - he insta-lynches D1 claims. I don't care about that either. I care about town winning - and if you lynch me and I flip JK, you're going to take my suspicions more seriously because you know my alignment. And town will win. And vicariously, I will win. So do what you wanna do ottox. As of right now, I'm beyond caring. I've told you who's scum. Either vote with me today or vote in my name tomorrow after I flip - either way, I get to win. | ||
VisceraEyes
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On April 22 2012 22:43 Ottoxlol wrote: Forget the plan, we already discussed it too much. I don't just disagree with your claim, I wrote it down why is it a bad play. You still did not respond You presume to know what scum are going to do? Really? And you're using this as evidence of my guilt? Laughable. While it's true that scum are less likely to kill me with votes on me, you've never played a game with me and you don't know how often I die N1. I die N1 in almost every game I play in. Now, here's a little secret: by claiming and having votes on me, I actually expect to live the night now so that scum can attempt to push me tomorrow. This is fine and expected - but it's a bridge I'll cross when I get to it. It's true that my reasoning for disliking gonzaw's plan was in part "it gives scum information"...but you'll notice that I'm not a vig. I don't advocate vigs claiming because THEY can kill scum. I can't. I can only jail people either protecting them or keeping them from acting. It's possible that I can stop a NK but I have no idea who would get shot other than myself because I die N1 like all the time. So my role is useless to me, as a player in this game. So I claimed, knowing it would not only explain my stance on the vig-claim plan, but could feasibly put more pressure on scum in the form of votes falling off of me. Clearly this last part wasn't the case. I have faith that town will see the light after I flip. | ||
VisceraEyes
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Anyway, I'd like to hear EVERYONE'S thoughts on the BH/Jitsu hydra please. As hyperactive as they were pre-game, they should have been in here freaking out by now. I actually feel like I want to lynch BH/Jitsu more than BM at this point. What do you guys think? | ||
VisceraEyes
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##Unvote: Bill Murray ##Vote: VisceraEyes For anyone concerned about me "playing to my win-condition", D1 discussion is ruined and I can accept my part in that. Lynch me, flip me, and do what you will with the information. You'll win with it. And therefor, I'll win. I'm playing to my win-condition. gg | ||
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But you know, continue to be a jerk about it laya...that's about par for the course where you're concerned. | ||
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