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On April 04 2012 08:59 VisceraEyes wrote:
Yeah, fair enough. But as active as a poster I am, my only choices are pretty much "Lead Discussion" or "trolololol" in most cases.
And when I have as strong a read as I did on C_C, it wasn't even about getting people to take my reads seriously anymore...it was about getting the scum to hang. After C_C flipped, I knew that any reads I posted were worthless unless I survived the night and could continue playing. Like, if I'd survived, scum would have probably opposed me fast and hard right? So regardless of the fact that I had led a scum-lynch D1, I'd be under heavy scrutiny D2 as a result and my reads would have actually had weight.
Leading discussion is one thing, drowning it out is something wholely different. You are really good at indentifying scum when you don't go into tunnel mode. I mean in both games your first major reads were wrong but your subsequent ones were bang on target. I think pushing a player hard day 1 is very useful as long as you step back an re-evaluate. Your case seemed to be based on C_C soft-claiming and him not caring. Yes he could have responded better but you never seemed to consider the possibility that he might be town.
If you had survived the night I have no doubt you would push succesful mafia lynches. The problem is that your reads were not even discussed. I agree that responding to BH and posting your reads before the deadline would have been useless as I explained in the QT. BH put you in a lose-lose situation where if you posted them he could say you were scum trying to dodge and when you didn't post them you were scum for not contributing. That is why establishing credibility Day 1 is so important.
It was a shame really. I think if you had pushed the C_C lynch based on a simple logical case rather than histeria there would not have been a backlash to his miss-lynch. Your other reads then become more credible. The C_C lynch discredited your other reads. I imagine most people thought that since you tunneled C_C Day 1 and were wrong your other reads might also be bad tunnels and so didn't bother really looking into them. That may be illogical but it is possible.
When I eventually roll VT I would love to have you on my team because you do have a knack for picking out scum. Good luck mate!
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On April 04 2012 09:46 DoYouHas wrote:
The problem I saw with C_C posting the flag was the potential for role fishing, not because it revealed his nationality. BH was completely right that (until the diagram) posting the flag told you nothing about C_C's nationality. However, just by posting it C_C was risking people's first reactions being revealing enough that scum could use it to inform their kills.
It is not even that it is likely that something like that could happen. It is that C_C even opened that can of worms that is anti-town.
See I don't get that at all. I mean he soft-claimed his nationality. What is your response? Mine would be
"You're an idiot as you are giving scum information they didn't have before"
I don't see how you can construe it as a rolefish. Look at people's reaction to it, no-one was outed. No-one had any intention of revealing anything and the fact that he was pushed so hard for it meant that people were even more likely to be careful about their nationality. I agree it was a dumb move but it wasn't scummy.
To me, C_C outing himself made it less likely others would out themselves. It just doesn't make sense from a scum point of view. I was really surprised when he was lynched. He wasn't pushing an agenda and there was almost no defending him. He was useless but that doesn't mean scum. Especially when there are no other candidates.
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Thanks to everyone for playing my game! Theme I wanted to go for in this game was two formerly antagonistic factions forced to work together in face of common enemy. You can see this in my design for PR. The cops are extremely weakened because they classify players of different nationality also as 'enemy' (Hint to anyone that might wish to join my future games: I despise alignment checks. You can always expect them to be weakened to throw some doubt in the investigation result). Doctors as had been pointed out actually work better in absence of their partner, though of course if there had been obvious town leader they would've been pretty good.
The blues were probably weak, but - like most of my setups - their value was in its claim-ability anyway. Because all power role were in pairs it required scum to invest two players in order to fake claim. PR could also be expected to claim and meet lessened suspicion because of this fact. Considering that scum also want to shoot good players, these four power roles can become hindrance merely by existing; I thought town would be in decent position if cccalf had been lynched D2 and mafia forced to waste their shot on decidedly mediocre MrZentor. That is why I found the hypothesis that there might be six blue roles in the game surprising because role claim downright breaks the game. In fact, this set-up was initially open setup until Foolishness wisely pointed out mass role-claim D1 would be too strong.
As in regards to the game itself, both QT contain extra analyses I could never hope to give. It was mostly straight-forward anyway; the mafia outplayed the town. One example of why ability to separate poor player from scum is more important than one might think. All the discussion about Cyber_Cheese applies here.
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Hessmyrr do you think that blues worked for or against town. Balancing the nuke ability around hitting blue made sense IF blue hunting was difficult. Otherwise it becomes an unblockable scum vig. The chance of scum attaining their alternate win condition is pretty high given Day 1 is almost always going to be a miss-lynch. With a 40% chance of a succesful nuke and a KP that means by the start of Day 2 town could be down three of the same faction, though the chance of this is 12.5% all things considered.
I like the idea of weak blues but I think they need to be more independent. Having one's role rely on someone else means it becomes a oneshot ability. If both docs claimed day one, one of them is guaranteed to be shot. They can't protect themselves so by night 2 both are likely dead. That means they may be able to save one person for the first two nights, after which scum are guaranteed to be able to kill that person.
I think limiting the nuke to a particular blue role or faction would have been a little better. For example they have to nuke the doctor of any team, or a blue from the SU. I also think that a watcher/tracker would be better than nationality DTs. Like I said earlier the DTs are useless as all they do is confirm people of your own alignment which you can't out because that helps scum anyway. Sure it helps your reads, but you would only use that on people who you think are town anyway.
If you want team-work between nationalities maybe masons are an option? For example they have a one-time ability to choose someone to PM, if they correctly pick the other mason they are both confirmed. You could weaken it by saying they cannot claim their role or making the scum nuke only targetable to masons.
TLDR: I like the idea of having two town factions with lots of weak blues but I think they need to be more independent and that scum KP needs to be a little more targeted than generic blue. Thoughts?
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Perhaps so. I did put flavour ahead of function and town probably suffered a bit because of it (power roles and MAD win condition). Making the nuke more specific isn't the idea that crossed my mind, probably would not have worked with nationalities though since it's impossible for scum to figure out who is who (and to give mafia alignment-checker would be overpowered). If I choose to run multiple faction game again, I'll put your idea into consideration.
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It's nice being right about cccalf/DoYouHas when no one else was.
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Wait, VE, why did you post this in the Obs QT?
EDIT:
On Obs QT sloosh wrote:
P.s. gonzaw you can do it! don't let ET get away w that crap. I'd just lynch him over bluelightz since you might die overnight.
I found this support from the Obs QT quite comforting :D 
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T.T. Reading along the ScumQT especially when I pulled off the mass swing onto MrZentor ... so sad. Unbelievably fortuitous for scum. And its kinda frustrating that I can't even just policy lynch people like cccalf, since mafia can easily push for it if candidate was town - seriously inactives/replacements hurt town a lot.
Day 1 I was less vocal, not because I was powerrole but because VE and BH were much more vocal and I didn't want to jump in and create a huge mess - I had trouble enough reading the thread as was without me posting. I decided that my role was nigh useless until like D4 or something, especially since godfather could have been an SU/US role, so I just played as if I was VT. Plus I didn't actually get to investigate anyone T.T
Another sadface for Sinensis actually giving up at the end. But I guess it is somewhat understandable that at LYLO two townies think him scum ... still would have liked it if he tried till the end.
Happy face for nailing ET - he became my strongest read after his defense and his subsequent followup after my death.
But overall major props to scum team for using each situation to maximum scum agenda (even though the events themselves were not entirely in your control).
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On April 04 2012 08:03 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 07:59 Cyber_Cheese wrote:
I was going to congratulate VE on good scum play, before he flipped.
This is why you have to completely ignore who's a 'veteran' and who isn't, they're still just players in the game
Figures I was right about VE being a soviet (see also, position in the graph)
If it wasnt obvious, most of that graph was random, I threw VE and BH near me, and blue on scum
Being right about Blue <3<3<3
If I was thinking on day 1 enough, my vote would have ended on blue, and the scientist would have been a power role.
The rest of my day 1 could have been improved. CHEESE IF YOU HAD PUT ONE IOTA OF EFFORT INTO THE FUCKING GAME.... ...................gg
uh-uh. no. you do not get to blame C_C for that travesty of a D1 wagon.
Like, he could have played better D1, and yes, I thought he was scummy, but you'll note that I did not want to lynch him. He was not the scummiest. Now, was JW a better lynch? no, it turned out he was just a noob. But the reasons you gave for C_C and the stuff like "Automatic town cred" and "if you go against me you are claiming scum" actively hurt the town.
there may have been reasonable reasons to lynch C_C but I honestly think that this game fell apart as soon as we had a single-wagon D1 where everyone hopped on and nobody had any good reasons, including the townie pushing the wagon.
In any case, VE's play this game was not typical VE play. In my experience with him, as town, he tends to be relatively conservative but typically correct in his reads.
I still don't understand what sinensis was saying about C_C posting "reads" on people's alignment. That was so off course that I could only assume he was a crappy scum player. How could C_C post "reads" on people's alignments? there's no way.
I need to work on distinguishing that kind of play from actual scum play.
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Mmm, for D1 I pulled up CC's metas, and I believe he played a very active scum in Mr Wiggles 1 or something (it had a christmas theme and he played w ET and Adam4179).
I didn't bring that up because I found his lack of activity suspicious ... should I have brought it up?
(p.s. I was about to post on VE's first post as well because I found it so weird, but he did before me. I wonder how game would have played out if I hit post first ><)
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
I really think you have to be very careful with meta. There ARE variables that change the way a player plays in a game besides alignment; someone may have school, or work, or have just gone through a breakup or gotten laid, and that could change him to play in a more or less aggressive fashion, or be more or less helpful.
Meta is a vital tool, but a lynch based purely on meta must be met with many raised eyebrows.
That being said, slOosh for MVP townie this game.
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Blazinghand
United States25551 Posts
On April 04 2012 13:11 slOosh wrote:
Another sadface for Sinensis actually giving up at the end. But I guess it is somewhat understandable that at LYLO two townies think him scum ... still would have liked it if he tried till the end.
I find giving up, ESPECIALLY at LYLO, to be unforgivable for a townie. If you give up, that means you stop playing to your wincon. I don't know how anyone finds this to be acceptable play. Even when there's almost no chance whatsoever to stop your own lynch, and even if it's LYLO and the game is about to be over, you die with your finger on the motherfucking trigger and push your scumreads.
Anything less is a death without honor.
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Yeah, also when you are scum it's just so easy to push those players
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@sloosh yeah I actually planned to go down scummily by attacking you and such, because in the off chance that Sinensis made a turn around, there was almost 0 chance that gonzaw was going to be lynched. GJ catching it, though more people really should've ><
bringing up that meta could've helped I spose, but D1 lynches are always hard to tell. If I was actually townie it would've been pretty hard to defend C_C after the train started chugging along.
lmao at gonzaw getting more support from town/obs QT then from his scumbuddies xP love you gonzo
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On April 04 2012 11:43 Sinensis wrote:
It's nice being right about cccalf/DoYouHas when no one else was.
you kind of lucked out; in multiple games I've played the people intensely lurking were just random townies.
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On April 04 2012 07:20 Hassybaby wrote:
I dunno guys....I read Day 1 and i thought town had this game in the bag
Then that happened and i was like ._.
this is how I like playing my scum... lull the town into a false sense of security, like they're on the path to win the game...
...then rob it out from underneath their feet.
^^ !
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On April 04 2012 13:47 EchelonTee wrote:Show nested quote +On April 04 2012 07:20 Hassybaby wrote:
I dunno guys....I read Day 1 and i thought town had this game in the bag
Then that happened and i was like ._. this is how I like playing my scum... lull the town into a false sense of security, like they're on the path to win the game... ...then rob it out from underneath their feet. ^^ !
yeah, fuck you too echelon 
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On April 04 2012 13:38 EchelonTee wrote:
@sloosh yeah I actually planned to go down scummily by attacking you and such, because in the off chance that Sinensis made a turn around, there was almost 0 chance that gonzaw was going to be lynched. GJ catching it, though more people really should've ><
bringing up that meta could've helped I spose, but D1 lynches are always hard to tell. If I was actually townie it would've been pretty hard to defend C_C after the train started chugging along.
lmao at gonzaw getting more support from town/obs QT then from his scumbuddies xP love you gonzo
Yeah, I think I would have been better switching my allegiance mid-game to town, at least they defended me and didn't FoS me without giving ANY reason > : (
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
Quick thoughts about the game as a side note:
Firstly, my bad about the voting thread. when i saw it underline, it made me think that it was supposed to be a hyperlink, so I reacted off that.
Secondly, I agree that sloosh played very well, especially in the circumstances. I'm blown away that the rest of town didn't have a proper look at BH and VE's filters after the flips. Scum targeted them for a reason, and their reads early on were pretty good, so why was there no real follow-up to them after the first 15-odd posts on the day?
Scum defo played well. Their diversion after the first day, and picking their targets for killing were spot on.
Also, the small talk about meta: Meta is NOT a reason to kill someone, but it is a reason to be suspicious. A lot of players switch their game up, or just plain improve, VE being the prime example. It is a good reason to be suspicious, but it sure as hell should not be a reason to vote/shoot. The game you're playing right now should be.
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United Kingdom10823 Posts
Oh, and sorry BH, we had to write the kill flavour based on your blog :D
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EPT
