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On April 05 2012 02:32 wherebugsgo wrote:
Agreed with VE on this one.
Maybe CC just rolls too much scum :p
(I didn't read much, but from what little I did see I was curious as to how scum were doing so well compared to town)
Recently it seems teams are being carried more by individual efforts while mostly everyone else is as good as a bag of bricks. That's how it was in Storm for both teams, and that's how it was in the mini I hosted as well. For both sides of a team-based game it's a losing proposition to give up or stop trying.
Some of the people who have been playing ages act elitist and end up forcing the newbies into compliance, by playing off their lack of skill. That makes it hard to get a solid read on the sheep.
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On April 05 2012 07:39 slOosh wrote:
Will definitely keep this in mind - I think I just got lazy and scrolled through when I saw a huge post with empty space everywhere ><
this is sort of what I was getting at when I kept on saying "gonzaw your big posts are unclear". it's hard to push based on that, but yah
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On April 05 2012 07:33 Probulous wrote:Show nested quote +On April 05 2012 05:19 slOosh wrote:In ObsQT Probulous wrote:
The difference between Sinensis and Gonzaw, is that Gonzaw has been labelled scum repeatedly and yet is stil hiding under the radar.
Could anyone explain how this works and how to employ this strategy to scumhunt? Show nested quote +Well I have the luck of having played with VE previously so I know he does this stuff, even as town. I don't know why Gonzaw hasn't been pushed more. He joins the thread half way through a shitstorm and doesn't comment on it? That was post prior to that. The point being that whilst Gonzaw had been FOS'd he clearly wasn't concerned with contributing. He was responding to stuff that related to him and nothing else. You however were lurking but pointing out little things that peope were missing. You were clearly paying attention whilst Gonzaw looked like he was trying to be active without contributing. Flying under the radar to me is not about not posting or not being FOS'd, it is about being in the thread with no-one paying attention to you. The fact that world war III was happening and he jumped in with this post ( Klicky) which was just a big distraction especially that it was focused on Bluelightz who is really difficult to read day 1. Then the only thing he says about the whole BH/VE thing was Show nested quote +BH, I quite like this new style of yours, at least it's better than the one you started with in this game.
What do you think about Blue BH? And what do you think about me? It was like this stuff didn't matter. Every other townie was confused and trying to work out the whole BH/VE/C_C thing and he jumps in with a case on Bluelightz of all people. It just seemed really weird to arrive on the scene of a massacre and comment on the drapes.
Even when I'm town I don't care about the massive (petty) arguments people have, specially if BH is involved in one.
If I think both players involved are town I just insult both of them tell them to stop and dwell on something else (I think I did the same on Aperture).
Yeah, I know I didn't "take part" of that discussion that much, but really what would you expect I was scum >_>
I still don't see how everybody thought I was scum because I FoSed Blue "out of all people"...I mean, I would have done the same if I was town I think 
I caught him as scum one game, and see he acts EXACTLY the same in the next game, I actually found it odd how many people were defending him.
Of course that made things better for us.
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Hey! Don't you guys be hating on my posting style >_>
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It is because from what I have seen on blue he never does stuff that makes his alignment clear. When he is town he posts lists of null reads, he does the same as scum. He scumslips day in and day out and he disappears from the thread. Maybe you have an ability to read him but keep in mind you were actually on his team this game. You may say you would have made the same case but we can never know. It is really hard not to notice stuff that you know to be true.
"Yeah, I know I didn't "take part" of that discussion that much, but really what would you expect I was scum >_>"
Exactly. I am glad that I had you pegged early. I had the same thing in my first game. Both times I have wavered on my read and changed it because you seemed to be contributing. You know that means when we play together you are going to have to start well with me. Otherwise I am will be convinced you are scum. If you get miss-lynched blame it on your succesfull scum play
Yes your posting style is aweful to read. There is so much white space that things don't flow. If you want to break up things, use headings. Better yet separate your sections into separate posts. I think use of bolded headings, lists and keeping posts relatively short helps get people to understand your case better.
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But I used the "----" lines like people told me to 
EDIT: Being "aweful to read" isn't that offensive this game.
I mean, that's good for scum isn't it?
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On April 05 2012 08:28 gonzaw wrote:But I used the "----" lines like people told me to EDIT: Being "aweful to read" isn't that offensive this game. I mean, that's good for scum isn't it?
I have it in writing now. You post like that next game and I will pull up this quote as evidence for my case. You have been warned.
As town you want people to listen to you. For two reasons, one, you think you have something worth saying and two, it establishes that you are contributing. If people don't read your case because it is formatted terribly what is the point of the case. That is why PBPAs are frowned upon. I am actively trying to stop using massive quote and pages of text for my cases. I prefer to use the whole (Klicky) thing. If people doubt what I am saying they can look it up.
It is more important to be listened to than to post stuff. Look at VE this game, he posted heaps and some really good cases but no-one listened to him after he died. Getting people to listen to you and separating bad town from scum are the two hardest things in this game for me. Good formatting helps with the first.
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I don't think I ever did a PBPA, apart from my Zentor case at N1.
When I ask people questions or pressure them, I don't really want "other" people to read it and reflect on it or anything; I just want the guy I'm pressuring to read it, and if someone else reads and it wants to pressure that guy then great.
Could you give specific examples from this game where my posts were "aweful to read"?
I will most likely continue to use the [ hr ] linebreaks, so well, I guess I will get misslynched very often in the future >_>
I don't think anybody complained at all after I started using them though
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Your bluelightz case I just skimmed. It is a small thing and I wouldn't get worked up about it. I mean as you pointed out no-one else seemed to mind. If you want to help me in games where we are together try and shorten your cases to the most important stuff. Hang on I'll take a good read of your bluelightz case and edit it to show you what I mean.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
I agree with prob's analysis of both BLs and GZs posting habits. GZ has improved in legibility since his last gsme thoigh
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If your post doesn't fit on a single screen, don't be surprised when I haven't read it because ive held the pgdwn key. I think the best course of action is to condense your writing some, and break your posts up.
Its not that I hate heavy reading, in fact its a requirement of my degree, but If your case is that long, you're either: A) overusing quotes to prove your point or B) waffling and including stuff that is not conclusive to them being scum. Either way your case is cheapened, whereas if you refine the key points so they fit into a post around this size, here, they should be well received. (In the example provided, it was totally ignored, but eh, whatevvvvva)
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Well, I've been improving my posting habits since I started so I don't really think I should change it drastically for now.
Although there are posts of mine that have a lot of linebreaks (and are quite big), so maybe I can put a headline in each section of it to make it better to read (unless I flip scum again >_> ).
EDIT: Wait, what cases are you guys talking about? My Zentor case or my Blue case (which I posted recently)?
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Here is the link to the original (Klicky)
Note that you put lots of different things into the same post which makes it difficult to find when rereading the thread. I'll break up your post into where I would make a separate post
Post 1:Your last sentence is the gist of your post here and is probably all that I would have written.
Show nested quote +On March 28 2012 02:59 VisceraEyes wrote:
gonzaw, you're using scum defense. You're trying to discredit peoples' reads of you by discrediting me. If they agree that you're suspicious, it's because you're acting suspiciously. Stop trying to blame everything on other people.
Townies vote. Townies try and find scum. You're trying to slither out of the spotlight. Just tell us who your teammates are and we'll kill you last. I've only seen your "case", and some points Zentor made. Everybody else is just sheeping you right now. You point a post of mine and say "This is suspicious guys, can't you see it?" and zelblade/Zentor/etc just go "Yep, now that you mention it it's suspicious".Basicly they only agree with your case and don't really present any of them own (except Zentor at times).Defending myself against your case is the only thing to do, so if that's your definition of "discreting you" then well, yeah I'm discrediting you, but I'm just discrediting your bad case against me.
Here is what it would like if I was formatting it.
VisceraEyesOn March 28 2012 02:59 VisceraEyes wrote:
gonzaw, you're using scum defense. You're trying to discredit peoples' reads of you by discrediting me. If they agree that you're suspicious, it's because you're acting suspiciously. Stop trying to blame everything on other people. Townies vote. Townies try and find scum. You're trying to slither out of the spotlight. Just tell us who your teammates are and we'll kill you last.
Defending myself against your case is the only thing to do, so if that's your definition of "discreting you" then well, yeah I'm discrediting you, but I'm just discrediting your bad case against me.
I would then move onto a new post for my response to MrZentor. If you want me to continue let me know but I really feel you could gain a lot from simpler clearer formatting. It is a shame because you have good reads and pretty good cases but I just don't feel like reading them. I hope you understand that I am just providing my thoughts on a simple way for you to improve. We all want to get better and I think you will find that people will take you more seriously if your posts are easy to read.
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My section on cases was more just in general about refining their words to not cloud out the point they're making.
Link1
Heres an example. I understand the case (and the subsequent vote) are only the last section, but commenting on absolutely everything everyone says in the thread is what leads you to making these gigantic blown out posts and that causes them to get overlooked/ignored.
Its harder to judge in this game because you were scum, you're encouraged to shit up the thread.
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Hmmm there's that timing again
Copy cat 
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I find it amusing that the Probulous that played in Newbie Mini Mafia II is giving advice on condensing post size
But yes, good advice. This isn't just for gonzaw, I think this is a great message to pass on to anyone who is newer to forum mafia. Saying less doesn't make you less town, saying heaps without actually saying anything is what does.
EDIT: Not implying that Gonzaw is new to forum mafia, I know hes not. This is just a trap I see newer players falling into.
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I would suggest I am model example of shortening posts. I'm just a naturally glass half full kind of guy
You are quite right that I started out with pages stuff but now I am happy with my balance. I think that using direct links rather than quotes was the big thing for me. I also realised that multiple posts help build a case rather than dumping it on people.
I think guys like Syllo and to some extent Foolishness have a great style. I'm really loving slOosh's new style because that is exactly what I am aiming for. Short simple posts leading into something more substantial.
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I still don't see why you guys killed me when nobody counter claimed SU doctor.
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First, well, I don't want to double or triple post just because my posts are big. It's the same thing if I have 1 big posts with 3 defined sections or 3 consecutive small posts; except the 1st one wastes less space.
Like I said, maybe I should put some headlines, like some people put Re: [stuff] and the like
Second, you are aware I was scum right? >_>
Yes I could have defended myself against VE concisely, but the more I dragged out the issue and the more I posted things just because the better
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On April 05 2012 09:42 MrZentor wrote:
I still don't see why you guys killed me when nobody counter claimed SU doctor.
Well, I decided you had to die because of paranoia that cccalf may have been the doctor and mafia were indeed going for the medic fish.
But look at your actions from an objective standpoint.
You clutter the thread and make it nigh impossible to read, and draw total attention on yourself allowing the mafia to lurk hardcore, or worse, attack you and look good in the process (giving them a cheap outlet for "activity"), incite emotional responses from the townies which no doubt increased frustration / hindered scumhunting (and doing the flipside for mafia).
And your conclusion from this "gambit" is ... nothing. (here is the post, warning it is very large). Almost all of it could have been posted at the start of D2 without your "gambit", and could have led to a much more successful town discussion and subsequent scumhunting / lynching.
The only "redeeming factor" is that you claim doctor, which makes it even more bogus as you are the remaining doctor. I mean it is good play to pretend to be VT so you don't get bluesniped, but you flat out pretended to be scum, and then expect people to willfully accept your claim (p.s. I did get kinda mad for everyone just buying that claim straightup)
Everything you did D2 actively promoted scum agenda. And if you want to make the case that cccalf was a better choice (which you didn't since you voted Nemesis anyways), I'd argue against it as he didn't piledrive D2 into the mud.
I apologize if my tone is offensive; it just boils down to 'you played like scum, you get lynched like scum'.
Next time I recommend taking the "traditional" route of logic / reasoning. I definitely think there is room for inciting emotional response as evidence and whatnot, but you took it too far. At least that is what I think.
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EPT
