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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
On February 07 2012 23:16 Jackal58 wrote: I'm not following. Millers are a pain if you're a DT but they should still be playing as a townie since they don't know they're millers. Well, since Penguin is the member of the Town in this game and Opz paints himself as one of the Inmates, why would he want to kill Penguin? | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 07 2012 23:12 DoctorHelvetica wrote: I'm reading that game. It's a shame no one listened to you when you were right, but this isn't a 60 person game, you're gonna get heard. Don't use excuses to stay quiet any longer. And what's the point of even saying anything? You never really accused Radfield of anything so why suck up and praise his towniness unless you're just trying to get town cred yourself I did a little explanation on layabout. Palmar disagrees. I disagree with palmar because I don't think he'd be scared as a townie but I explained a little. It's still day1. You'll read big fancy cases from me d2 and ongoing. Everything I got so far are gut feelings. Given what happened the last few games and how I played those games I'm trusting those gut feelings now, but that doesn't mean that I can explain them on d1 because there's so little going on and so little to analyze. The 2nd group of lynches I told you are only my backup-lynches. That's palmar / BM / Kenpachi / hiro. Palmar is clear for me right now as he thinks the same way about other people but that might change d2 or later. I'm not sure those people will flip red at all. I'd say they're a coinflip and I'd much rather lynch them than a rnd-lurker d1 if we end up not having legit other lynch target because 50/50 is still better than a true-rnd lynch into a lurker. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 07 2012 23:27 Toadesstern wrote: I did a little explanation on layabout. Palmar disagrees. I disagree with palmar because I don't think he'd be scared as a mafia but I explained a little. It's still day1. You'll read big fancy cases from me d2 and ongoing. Everything I got so far are gut feelings. Given what happened the last few games and how I played those games I'm trusting those gut feelings now, but that doesn't mean that I can explain them on d1 because there's so little going on and so little to analyze. The 2nd group of lynches I told you are only my backup-lynches. That's palmar / BM / Kenpachi / hiro. Palmar is clear for me right now as he thinks the same way about other people but that might change d2 or later. I'm not sure those people will flip red at all. I'd say they're a coinflip and I'd much rather lynch them than a rnd-lurker d1 if we end up not having legit other lynch target because 50/50 is still better than a true-rnd lynch into a lurker. EBWOP in bold | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
On February 07 2012 21:54 Palmar wrote: We should totally be discussing lynching Hiro, VE or Sheth. At the moment, I'm leaning towards lynching sheth. I see no reason to believe he's town this game. He's posting speculations and questions, mostly just useless fluff, and there is nothing to it that gives me any feeling he could be town. It's too careful, and too forced. ##Vote Sheth Why didn´t you follow this up with a vote in the voting thread? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
 I wasn't gonna day 1 scumhunt this game, but I just can't help myself In all seriousness, I do think Toad scum: This post is the major factor for Toad in my mind: On February 07 2012 19:44 Toadesstern wrote: Yeah I've got the bad habbit of stopping to work when I'm told that I'm useless. Hapnned last game too. I did big ass analyses about Sandroba and everyone ignored them telling me I'm doing bullshit. I figured I could give you at least a couple of names instead of explaining this time so that should make people happy and you're able to tell if I'm mafia or not depending on the flips. I for example don't like rad because of his list (VE, Kita, myself). I don't have to talk about myself, Kita looks town to me and VE is leaning town for me but I'm not sure there yet. Easy shit. On the BM matter: BM / Kenpachi / Palmar are the 3 people I'd like to see lynch if we can't one of CC / layabout lynched. I think layabout and especially CC are more likely to flip mafia (or badman / catwoman). This post is made after several attempts at getting Toad to flesh out his reads. Read the spoiler quotes to see the context. First he opens with an excuse as to why he is not contributing and may not contribute in the future. That is somewhat scummy, but not particularly damning. Second he states he doesn't like me(which I assume means he thinks I am scummy) because he disagrees with my reads. That is not a valid reason to find someone scummy(in the early game), and shows the wrong mindset. Fact is, Kita looks like his inactive 'helpful' mafia play right now, and VE looks defensive and skittish. They are most certainly not so townie that calling them suspicious is a bad thing. Again, this is scummy but not terrible. Third and most importantly is the last line: On the BM matter: BM / Kenpachi / Palmar are the 3 people I'd like to see lynch if we can't one of CC / layabout lynched. I think layabout and especially CC are more likely to flip mafia (or badman / catwoman). This is in addition to these posts: not sure yet. Probably someone out of CC / layabout. If neither of those 2 is going to be an option I'd be happy to lynch BM / Kenpachi / Palmar instead. [....]I'd much rather see people like CC, maybe layabout or if we got noone else to lynch Palmar / Kenpachi lynched right now.[....] Similar posts, and in all three Toad is already backing off the CC, layabout train. They are his top 2, he has mentioned them multiple times, but not only is he not making an effort to push them, he is basically capitulating that they might not get lynched. CC is a decent target, and the fact is there are decent reasons to push him, yet Toad has not found them. Additionally, although this is a minor point, Toad says they are mafia, or third party. There is simply no reason for a town player to add in the last bit. If Toad is scum he likely KNOWS that CC and Layabout are town, so the inclination to hedge and call them third party is large. Not a huge thing, but really jumped out at me when I read it. His other targets, Kenpachi, BM and Palmar are just policy lynches. KP and BM are both perennial easy targets, and day 1 lynch bait for mafia. Including Palmar in here doesn't even make sense, and directly contradicts Toads earlier post: On February 06 2012 22:01 Toadesstern wrote: That's not what I'm asking. I just want to know if I should look forward to your analyses or if there's not going to be something. If you're not willing to play the usual palmar style I have to try and figure you out somehow else and you'de be someone like Kenpachi for me. Toad is going to try and figure Palmar out somehow else, which apparently just means voting him off Day 1. That doesn't make sense. You are using Palmar's somewhat trollish play(trollish play that you yourself already admitted was standard fare for Townie Palmar) as an excuse for a scum read. This post is also a red flag: On February 07 2012 07:40 Toadesstern wrote: holy shit this game is a trollfeast. I guess that problem will be solved after n1 given how many vigs there are (possibly) to our thread. Still want wbg to post something This post both undermines the thread, and encourages vigilantes to shoot into anyone trolling. Trolling is almost always a townie trait, as it both spotlights you and bring about the ire of town. Two things most mafia players seek to avoid. There are other points and posts, but most of them are minor. Agree or Disagree? ##Vote: Toadesstern | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
Checking, or even just straight up shooting him, would be fine, but I think we have better lynch candidates. | ||
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Kurumi
Poland6130 Posts
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Cyber_Cheese
Australia3615 Posts
On February 07 2012 23:38 Radfield wrote: Additionally, although this is a minor point, Toad says they are mafia, or third party. There is simply no reason for a town player to add in the last bit. If Toad is scum he likely KNOWS that CC and Layabout are town, so the inclination to hedge and call them third party is large. Not a huge thing, but really jumped out at me when I read it. I'm not quite sure I follow that correctly. Why is a townie making a mafia/third party distinction scummy? | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 07 2012 23:38 Radfield wrote: I think you're scum Toad, I realize it's your birthday and all, but it has to be done I wasn't gonna day 1 scumhunt this game, but I just can't help myself In all seriousness, I do think Toad scum: This post is the major factor for Toad in my mind: This post is made after several attempts at getting Toad to flesh out his reads. Read the spoiler quotes to see the context. First he opens with an excuse as to why he is not contributing and may not contribute in the future. That is somewhat scummy, but not particularly damning. I said I'm not going to to cases d1 and will do them d2. At least that's what I wanted to make it look like without actually saying it. Although I did say it recently Second he states he doesn't like me(which I assume means he thinks I am scummy) because he disagrees with my reads. That is not a valid reason to find someone scummy(in the early game), and shows the wrong mindset. Fact is, Kita looks like his inactive 'helpful' mafia play right now, and VE looks defensive and skittish. They are most certainly not so townie that calling them suspicious is a bad thing. Again, this is scummy but not terrible. I did not like you because you posted nothing early on and I wanted you to start posting. Easy as that. But yeah although I mentioned the reads on VE and Kita they're not the reason my talk about you. Third and most importantly is the last line: This is in addition to these posts: Similar posts, and in all three Toad is already backing off the CC, layabout train. They are his top 2, he has mentioned them multiple times, but not only is he not making an effort to push them, he is basically capitulating that they might not get lynched. CC is a decent target, and the fact is there are decent reasons to push him, yet Toad has not found them. I voted CC. As mentioned I'm not going to post big fancy cases on d1 because I think they'd be driven by tunneling and my gut feeligns which would make me think "I got to fine something that makes him scumm". Don't want that early on. And no I'm not backing off. If I'd be backing off you'd hear me saying something like I said about Palmar Additionally, although this is a minor point, Toad says they are mafia, or third party. There is simply no reason for a town player to add in the last bit. If Toad is scum he likely KNOWS that CC and Layabout are town, so the inclination to hedge and call them third party is large. Not a huge thing, but really jumped out at me when I read it. So what are you saying. You just said CC and laya are reasonable lynches and now you're telling me I'm mafia and I know they're town? I said that because I think he's either a red trying to push that or he might actually be catwoman. If I thought he's badman I would not have made that statement. His other targets, Kenpachi, BM and Palmar are just policy lynches. KP and BM are both perennial easy targets, and day 1 lynch bait for mafia. Including Palmar in here doesn't even make sense, and directly contradicts Toads earlier post: Toad is going to try and figure Palmar out somehow else, which apparently just means voting him off Day 1. That doesn't make sense. You are using Palmar's somewhat trollish play(trollish play that you yourself already admitted was standard fare for Townie Palmar) as an excuse for a scum read. yeah Kenpachi would be a policy lynch, BM half a policy lynch tops and I'm not going to vote palmar with his most recent posts This post is also a red flag: This post both undermines the thread, and encourages vigilantes to shoot into anyone trolling. Trolling is almost always a townie trait, as it both spotlights you and bring about the ire of town. Two things most mafia players seek to avoid. I thought I'm doing the same to some defree just that those people are overdoing it. It's basicly what palmar said about layabout and what I said about risk.nuke last game: I don't think / he doesn't think that he'd have the balls to do that as a mafia. However I'm not sure on layabouts matter about that question. VE for example trolls as mafia on purpose because it's well known that town trolls d1 and he know that he get's away with that because of his meta. I don't think the reads on Kenpachi are going to be better any time soon so we might lynch / shoot him if we got noone else who might be a viable target. Palmar might end up being useful because he either is trolling-rightish or trolling-wrongish and therefore we don't need to kill him but I want to get his reads to keep him accountable There are other points and posts, but most of them are minor. Agree or Disagree? ##Vote: Toadesstern | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On February 07 2012 23:02 Jackal58 wrote: Why not? If you feel Radfield is scummy why wouldn't you want to lynch him? I see this sentiment posted in almost every game on here now. I don't want to lynch player X on day one. Fair amount of the time that sentiment has been put forth by people that flipped scum. If somebody looks scummy I'm going to push for their lynch. I don't care who it is. Remember No guts. No gory. You don't lynch some people day 1 for several reasons Jackal. A) Some players are extremely easy to pick out as town or scum as the day goes on. No need to kill them Day 1 B) Some players are very valuable as town, so you want to force the mafia to shoot at them, and you DON'T want to do their job for them. Day 1 reads are notoriously poor, so the risk/reward of killing a solid town player Day 1 is simply not there. On February 07 2012 23:43 Palmar wrote: Disagree, I think all the three people I mentioned are better candidates. Especially Toad's last post seemed like stubborn asshole-townie rather than scum. Checking, or even just straight up shooting him, would be fine, but I think we have better lynch candidates. His last post seems pretty meh to me. Sheth and VE I pretty much agree on. I'm not sure how you can have an opinion on Hiro though. Why is he on your list. + Show Spoiler + On February 07 2012 23:49 Kurumi wrote: Rad, why You didn't want to scumhunt Day 1? Because I'm normally wrong Day 1  . I wanted to scumhunt, just not really scumhunt publicly. I feel like too often my voice carries more weight than it should on Day 1, as I don't think my Day 1 track record is better than anyone elses. I cannot help myself though... | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
It's pretty obvious he has seen and read parts of the thread, but seems to have very little to add to it. | ||
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rgTheSchworz
Romania425 Posts
You aren't helping no one right now-neither town nor scum. At least not visibly. Or I did FoS 2 scum and you're overreacting, as scum.Not counting on the last assumption. Makes me wonder who you actually are. On the other hand I see Dr.H has been posting gallons of shit. He says setup talk shouldn't continue into day 2, which seems reasonable, but he agrees with it day 1. That means only 1 thing: He doesn't mind a mislynch day 1, as he has also changed votes 3 times. Two of those times he joins a wagon( on me and CC respectively) Note the timing of the votes: He votes for me after i have 4-5 votes, and after WBG, a vocal person speaks. Then he leaves my wagon when some people start to say I am town, Forumite unvotes me, and places the 3rd vote on CyberCheese. Moving on to Cyber_Cheese: Cyber_Cheese's points about Catwoman are wrong. Or maybe it was Tunkeg? Someone said "catwoman should just shoot the most pro-town people", that's not true either. Catwoman should DT until she finds her target then kill them. She doesn't win with scum. If scum win before two-face/penguin are dead then Catwoman loses. Shooting the most pro-town looking people will probably just result in red and green deaths. If you even broadcast that advice or assumption why would two-face and the penguin put themselves in the spotlight? Now Catwoman is in a WIFOM situation where she has to guess what her target is thinking and shooting randomly is unsafe, puts her at a higher risk of losing the game. With the combined full force KP of batman/catwoman/mafia all shooting into "town" (except batman/catwoman don't know who town is, although you guys seem pretty confident they will know implicitly) the game will likely end with scum winning and town with both third parties losing. I'm not going to crunch numbers because I can't do math but I'm guessing of at least one of each candidate surviving to endgame in this scenario are pretty high. I hope that clears things up. I think Cyber_Cheese is either mafia or, more obviously, Batman. I don't know why I didn't put it together before but the player trying to get the Joker offered up scot free with no clear pro-town motives seems like a pretty good bet for me. If he's not third party or scum I'd be pretty shocked. Can anyone link me to some games in which Cyber_Cheese was a town aligned player in memory? After looking at that I might switch votes. I dislike voting for players who attack me because I am very defensive and often in mafia games I get tunnel vision when I'm attacked. But just as often as I've been wrong, I've been right and ever since letting Pandain slip through my grasp in Insane Mafia I've tried to be more confident. WBG that was on point, pushing the easiest lynch with no commitment, wishy washy, good call. Voting RG Then he votes CC. So, what made him change his opinion of me?What caused him to unvote me after he said I was pushing the easiest lynch with no commitment(I assume he meant Kenpachi) and that I was certainly Wishy-washy to have changed for whom I voted 1 time. That was wagoning for no purpose. Dr. Helvetica, you are Wishy-Washy, you continue talking trash about the setup, you want to hide behind your walls of text hoping we don't lynch you day 1. What distracted him from VE? | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 08 2012 00:00 Radfield wrote: [...] His last post seems pretty meh to me. Sheth and VE I pretty much agree on. I'm not sure how you can have an opinion on Hiro though. Why is he on your list. + Show Spoiler + On February 07 2012 23:49 Kurumi wrote: Rad, why You didn't want to scumhunt Day 1? Because I'm normally wrong Day 1 . I wanted to scumhunt, just not really scumhunt publicly. I feel like too often my voice carries more weight than it should on Day 1, as I don't think my Day 1 track record is better than anyone elses. I cannot help myself though... Because hiro has not posted at all (pretty much) but last game he played very active. He was not a VT but a Detective. Why should he lurk so hardcore as a VT if he's posting A LOT as a blue? Why should he lurk hardcore if he's a blue again? I'd say he's neither a blue nor a green. It's just nothing like his last game. | ||
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Forumite
Sweden3280 Posts
In this I agree with Palmar, who I think has been looking more Town since he took the game seriously and stopped trolling (so much). ##vote Liquid`Sheth | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22630 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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Bill Murray
United States9292 Posts
I am definitely into A, and somewhat into B I saw some fluffy suspicions of Tunkeg, but I was really liking his layabout case, myself I have not caught up, but I expect to be able to read the thread right now. I just wanted to let you all know I was here, because you all are cool, and I'll be fielding questions | ||
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
Radfield past games http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291720&user=52884 Election Mafia http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291212&user=52884 TL Mafia XLVIII http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=285690&user=52884 TL Mafia XLVII http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=281403&user=52884 Team Melee Mini Mafia - Couples Therapy http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=269956&user=52884 Pick Your Power Interesting! http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=264699&user=52884 Lord of the Rings Mafia http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=240842&user=52884 Merc Mini 2 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=235762&user=52884 Closed Casket Mafia http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=218973&user=52884 Pick Your Power Insane! On February 07 2012 23:18 Tunkeg wrote: I want to lynch layabout today, why? Reason 1: He have only been dicking around. Not posting anything of value (well, this is the case for many players you might say. Reason 2: He is creating "tools" for scumhunting that is totally useless (funny, yeah, maybe, depends). Exactly like he did with his Bullshit formula in Purgatory, where he was scum: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=74#1464 Layabout is the first to point out anything he sees as bad, crappy, stupid etc etc. And from my limited knowledge of his play I think his scumhunting is pretty good. So for him to post such distracting crap like this I see as scummy. Reason 3 He is scared. I have called him out twice (three times counting this post) allready and he haven't talked back. What's up with that mister superaggressive? Is it because you know I am the king of tunneling, and as scum don't want this kind of attention? I think a layabout town would go straight for my throat after these posts. He is just sitting back and taking it. Come out, bring your a-game, be your obnoxious scumhunting SOB layabout townie, or face the hangman tonight as the fooling around scum layabout. #Vote: layabout remember how in student we had a little "falling out"? i think you need to remember that what happens in the thread stays in thread and you should not let your (admittedly justifiable) hatred of me make you see red where there is none. None of the reasons you have given have any relation to my alignment. layabout He is just beeing his lovely sarcastic self. Thus far he have only been posting smirk comments and useless crap. As I know him from Student mafia, he is a total prick, but that is ok, because he actually was playing a great town game. This time around he is just a useless prick. Time to step up man? I have only one rule: Be Polite. You should not have called my a prick. It's bullying. I was hoping that by ignoring you you would go away. If anything this game i have tried to be a sort-of "lovable arsehole", sure i am a bit of a prick but i am a prick with a smile. Is this some new crap like your Bullshitformula in Purgetory where you were scum? That bullshit formula was and is an effective means to hunt scum that should be more successful than the average TL town. Why are you trying to draw parallels between my play in that game and my play in this one. I made that post because i was frustrated and had WAY too much time on my hands. In that game i threw effort at the thread, in this game i have been useless and fairly neutral in my posting. Nevertheless how is that post (the MS paint pic) indicative of my alignment? I wonder how not responding shows that i am "scared". Tunkeg you called me useless (i have been) and you criticised my bullshit formula. I didn't think it was worth responding to. You then threw a vote on me which has prompted a response but it does not contain much, because there is not a lot to say. To me it appears that Tunkeg doesn't like me, he may be trying to pressure me but i feel like he just wants to vote for the sake of it.... Speaking of which i never really explained my vote for cyber cheese. I was going to post this back on page 17 in but decided not to i have spoilered first bit because the initial discussion should not be brought up over and over, but i have left it there anyway: + Show Spoiler + + Show Spoiler + On February 07 2012 04:31 Kurumi wrote: All Your posts are utter garbage. Do I need to motivate You with a vote to help Town? Oh wait, maybe You don't want to help us? Why are You defending Kenpachi? Do you honestly think that Kenpachi's posting shows us that he is likely to be scum? The focus on him is stupid and i think we should abandon that path of thought. If i were to say: "Kurumi has not posted any tf2 related videos yet, i reckon that means that he is scum, voteKurumi" any player would be entitled to tell me that that is bullcrap and that i should not be trying to lynch you for that reason. It is not an issue of defending anybody. It is an issue of bad reasoning. That said i think that Ken is nearly always a reasonable lynch and that he is therefore easy to lynch. If we want to hunt scum pressuring Kenpachi seems like a bad way to start. Conversely, since mafia do not want us to successfully hunt scum such discussion is a good way for them to start Cyber Cheese As a player that has advocated an anti-town move i think that cyber cheese would be a far better lynch candidate. Yes that is basically it. I know its weak. But there isn't much to go on yet. (most of this has been said already) Joker does not need to claim. Joker claiming costs town a vig and has no considerable benefits -Batman cannot communicate directly with us so we cannot know if Batman intends to help town -Batman could still hit town whether or not the Joker is alive, if town is winning it makes sense for batman to kill town. -Batman could simply use DT powers to find Hugo and not kill scum (other than Hugo), which doesn't help town since -Batman would still need to kill Hugo Strange whether the Joker is alive or not On February 06 2012 16:31 Cyber_Cheese wrote: This could be a perfectly pro-town - contribute if you are town post. As a side note, if you don't want a topic discussed, add in a topic that will create discussion in it's place. It could also be an "I know my plan is useless and that following it would benefit scum but please don't just call it bad, think of another (hopefully unproductive) topic and discuss that instead" If he felt that claiming Joker was worth considering and benficial to town, it would make sense to try to discuss it and push it. Instead this post would remove his responsibility for discussing a pro-mafia move. I suppose i didn't post it because i often prepare posts and then don't post them because they aren't good enough. + Show Spoiler + You may wish to pause and think about what this means i was also wondering who would still be pushing players using the logic of "they have best useless therefore they must be scum" So far nearly every player that has been put forward to be lynched has had something in common: They have not behaved in a way that suggests that they have an above average chance of flipping scum. Most people pushing cases have been doing so not because they have substance but because of "some other reason that is probably not pro-town" + Show Spoiler [Examples of poor lynch targets] + Bill Murray Kenpachi rgtheschworz - i know some people had reasons but they were not good slardar jaybrundage layabout -_-Qualis All of that negative crap said We now have a few candidates that might actually be scum: Toad Cyber+Cheese Sheth maybe someone else | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
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layabout
United Kingdom2600 Posts
On February 08 2012 01:21 Toadesstern wrote: oh gosh it's L all over again. Yes I'm mafia and I'm going to buss all my mafia buddies to get towncred and afterwards win on my own... Too easy | ||
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