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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:03 RayzorFlash wrote: Random Observation: Both the games I've played in, I've been vanilla town and come off as being scummy... Need to figure out why that is and how to stop it =_= I actually thought you were scummy and thought ico was pretty townish for whatever reason. Gave me some issues dealing with you :p | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:06 Radfield wrote: Ico gave you a nice scummy head start in this game which I'm sure didn't help  I didn't think so, I said ico was a superfriend early in the game. | ||
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 24 2012 00:11 rgTheSchworz wrote: gg, I did play horrible after Toad´s CC. I should´nt have lied or I should have lied much more. My reads have been bad, except for JayJay and JB, who btw, should have been lynched D3 instead of Kurumi. D3 lynch decided the game, I had no credibility whatsoever in the endgame. Should have pushed that much more for JB D3, if he had gotten lynched, we would have won. mmh I don't think lynching into JB or JJ would habe been a good idea even if you think they're quite scummy. Let's face it we got several people who looked awful this game and it was really hard to distinguish between those people, which was the reason I treated myself as a lurkerbane early on and not as a classic vig. Additionally Kurumi was a granted reduce in KP which was really important. Sure you could have been lucky and ended up lynching the GF when you're right about someone being mafia but that chance is slim. You guys really needed to reduce KP d3 and lynching Kurumi was the savest and almost the best thing possible imo. Oh and about the lies. Yeah really we should never have lied in the first place. I thought I can handle this and thought it was a good idea to claim two-face because I was immune vs shots at night and on top of that thought that Batman wouldn't look into someone who calimed Two-Face unless he knew I was really immune vs CW as well. But this whole thing snowballed out of controle. I said several times that we should talk about something else but someone brought my claim back as a topic to discuss ALL THE TIME and finally DocH understood what was going on and asked me all kind of weird questions to figure out if I am joker which lead to everyone else knowing I am joker as well because I answered those questions. Everyone who played the game should have known I am the joker the moment DocH asked me "did you *hire* somebody?" and I replied with yes after he was stubbornly sticking to that question. I still think the move itself was good but I really had no controle over what was happening and it snowballed into a big shitstorm so I guess it was not  | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On February 24 2012 00:11 rgTheSchworz wrote: gg, I did play horrible after Toad´s CC. I should´nt have lied or I should have lied much more. My reads have been bad, except for JayJay and JB, who btw, should have been lynched D3 instead of Kurumi. D3 lynch decided the game, I had no credibility whatsoever in the endgame. Should have pushed that much more for JB D3, if he had gotten lynched, we would have won. You never lie as town, and if you do lie and it's that obvious, then scum will jump all over it and get you lynched. A competent town will almost always lynch a clear liar. Most towns recently have been derping pretty damn hard though, where they leave a liar alive despite how detrimental he/she is to the town. Ex. BM in TL Mafia L, that's a good example. Ofc once it was confirmed he was a liar he died, but you get the idea. Basically the way you lied this game, I (and by extension the entire scumteam) knew you were lying. generally there's only two reasons a person lies; they're scum (so if you were 3rd party we wouldn't shoot you) or they're trying to draw hits (so we wouldn't shoot you). Since we knew that, PLUS by lying you had no clout in town why would we ever shoot you? The only people who would ever shoot you would have all been vigis. Saying you need to lie so that as scum you can lie is stupid. Neither side needs to lie, ever. I'm sad LaL isn't actually popular here, because it's the one of the few things about TL town play that is really bad. Lying is just not punished enough. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Lol. Whenever you make a claim you always have to consider its implications. Why would we shoot someone who, if left alive, basically destroys the town on his own? I personally am not scared of blues as mafia. We have methods of dealing with blues (RB, though generally I mess up by putting the RB in the wrong place) but they are there. If the standard part of town play isn't good then being a blue doesn't matter. | ||
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:54 wherebugsgo wrote: You never lie as town, and if you do lie and it's that obvious, then scum will jump all over it and get you lynched. A competent town will almost always lynch a clear liar. Most towns recently have been derping pretty damn hard though, where they leave a liar alive despite how detrimental he/she is to the town. Ex. BM in TL Mafia L, that's a good example. Ofc once it was confirmed he was a liar he died, but you get the idea. Basically the way you lied this game, I (and by extension the entire scumteam) knew you were lying. generally there's only two reasons a person lies; they're scum (so if you were 3rd party we wouldn't shoot you) or they're trying to draw hits (so we wouldn't shoot you). Since we knew that, PLUS by lying you had no clout in town why would we ever shoot you? The only people who would ever shoot you would have all been vigis. Saying you need to lie so that as scum you can lie is stupid. Neither side needs to lie, ever. I'm sad LaL isn't actually popular here, because it's the one of the few things about TL town play that is really bad. Lying is just not punished enough. well I was pretty sure mafia would think that way which was another reason for my fakeclaim. I never intended to actually draw hits. Sure that would have been nice but to think so would have been pretty naive. I wanted you guys to think that I'm a VET or VT who tried to draw some hits and that worked. Obviously it failed afterwards because of all the talk, so that's a lesson for me. Either shut your mouth after a lie and don't explain it if you did it for a good reason or simply not lie in the first place :p | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On February 24 2012 04:55 syllogism wrote: No, LaL is awful and it's usually really easy to tell when it's a townie lying and lying as town is actually relatively rare here, compared to something like mafiascum (lol) So you think it was good for town to leave the liars alive? Town essentially lost 48 hours of discussion because of liars. I can guarantee (judging from how we played this game) that had those players been lynched or systematically ignored the scumteam would've lost horrifically. Day 1 Sheth barely survived in part because of all the chaos. Day 2 WE led the lynch and day 3 Radfield messed up his claim. I got shot by 3rd party. Those are the only reasons mafia really died (oh and kita). Town had no ability to scumhunt because there didn't exist a proper town atmosphere. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
If a Townie lies he does that for a reason. If I claim VT in a game and in reality am a blue would you say it's a good idea to try and understand why that "VT" lied if you're sure it's a townie? No you'd shut up and not talk about it because that guy had a reason to not talk about it. | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
The reason you lynch liars over simply ignoring them is that not everyone will just ignore them, and you have no idea whether or not they're even town. Since scum can do the exact same thing, lynching all the liars is just much simpler on principle. There are just too few scenarios where lying as town is good for town. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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Toadesstern
Germany16350 Posts
On February 24 2012 05:09 wherebugsgo wrote: Yeah, except I as scum can do the exact same thing and then you're royally fucked. The reason you lynch liars over simply ignoring them is that not everyone will just ignore them, and you have no idea whether or not they're even town. Since scum can do the exact same thing, lynching all the liars is just much simpler on principle. There are just too few scenarios where lying as town is good for town. why should a mafia beg to be shot my CW. Sure in at least 90% of the cases CW will think herself that that guy wants to draw a hit because he's a vet and therefore not shoot me or or DT me instead to figure out what's happening. Why should a mafia take that risk? Sure the risk to be actually shot is low but who got the balls to do that and explain his mates afterwards why he did that? | ||
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
Basically my point is that if lying as town is not punished (when the vast majority of the time it is very detrimental to town) then it allows scum to get away with lying. In fact most of the time scum will be more careful about their lies, which makes it even harder sometimes to catch and punish them for it. When you have a policy like LaL, no one can lie, which actually benefits town and gimps scum. What loss do you have for town? Sometimes you lose a useless townie? That's worth it. I think you underestimate the value of a good atmosphere. Sure, you can usually tell when a townie is lying, but a lot of other people in the game will still concentrate discussion on that player. That's a very bad thing when discussion should be on scum. It gives scum openings to abuse town too. IMO the gain of LaL far outweighs the loss. Look at mafia L: when BM lied, I wanted to lynch him right then so we wouldn't waste two days of discussion. Ultimately we lynched him the following day, which was okay, but it gave him more time to mess up the thread, time we could have otherwise been using to search for his scumbuddies. Even if he was town it would have been helpful to lynch him, since then we would've cleared out a complete detriment to town. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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wherebugsgo
Japan10647 Posts
On February 24 2012 05:13 Toadesstern wrote: why should a mafia beg to be shot my CW. Sure in at least 90% of the cases CW will think herself that that guy wants to draw a hit because he's a vet and therefore not shoot me or or DT me instead to figure out what's happening. Why should a mafia take that risk? Sure the risk to be actually shot is low but who got the balls to do that and explain his mates afterwards why he did that? Complete WIFOM Also, I actually seriously considered doing this myself because at the end of day 1 I already knew who both third parties were. That's why I checked Kurumi n1; I strongly believed he was third party (and I was right.) What I could have done is fake claim day 2 the same way you and RG did. The only reason I didn't was because my team was bussing Sheth, and it would have forced us to constantly roleblock Kurumi (or lynch Kurumi that day) I thought going into n2 that we could do it the next day but I never had time to implement it because I was busy with school and I forgot to tell my team to roleblock Kurumi. | ||
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syllogism
Finland5948 Posts
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