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Even if we assume your assertion about aggressive dismissive posting to be correct, do you think it's something mafia is more likely to do? Being aggressive is certainly generally towny. How likely do you think it is for a person who has not played mafia elsewhere and playing only his second game here (according to his TL mafia census post) to play like that if he happened to roll scum? Do you seriously think he is the best lynch with 5 mafia left?
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And regarding promises kept
On January 11 2012 16:37 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
As a side note, I read a few of the tyrran analysis and I found them well reasoned, I will try to give my own thoughts on it tomorrow.
On January 12 2012 17:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
just got home, F5'd and saw the lynch. I will get out my analysis before the day post tomorrow, hopefully I can get some done before work tomorrow, but if not after 6pm EST I will be home trying to get some shit done.
On an unrelated note, if anyone likes medieval art and lives around NYC, fort tryson has a pretty cool renaissance collection that I checked out today. It's called The Cloisters and going to it gives you admittance to MET as well during the same day.
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Well, First I'm sorry I haven't contributed.
Grackaroni
So, for Grack I am examining How he votes,
First d1
"I Agree with you X"
On January 07 2012 09:32 Grackaroni wrote:
Yeah I agree with you.
An Errandor lynch is much better than Palmar : more likely to flip scum and less chance of losing one of town's greatest assets.
##Vote: Errandor
d2
"Risk is leading vote count let's lynch him!"
On January 11 2012 13:13 Grackaroni wrote:
I feel that between risk.nuke and RoL, Risk.nuke is the better lynch.
RoL seems to truly believe that the voting block and confirmed townies would be more helpful than the blues themselves and seems to have spent a lot of time considering the implications of the mass roleclaim. I get the feeling that he legitimately believes his plan is good for town, and he stands by it even after the town declared it anti-town.
The largest flaw in the plan is not the theory itself but the actual application. If only a portion of the town comes in to claim the whole plan falls apart, letting a portion of townies make claims is bad. Besides it's possible that we have a couple derp townies who would lie about their roles in order to save themselves or draw hits.
risk.nuke mentioned a plan that consisted of sitting back and observing posts and got pissed off at Syllo for ruining it. I think he has been overreacting to accusations. He also is using meta on other people yet when it's used against himself meta is worthless. The only thing I agree with is that Palmar's flip does make me think that you are less likely to be a demon, still though if you were an Angel of course you're going to ask to be checked in order to prolong your life.
With 20 hours to go we need to start consolidating our votes. I think risk.nuke is more likely scum than RoL but either one is preferable to a no-lynch.
##Vote: risk.nuke
d3
"Oh everyone's suspicious of RoL, I'll do the same"
On January 13 2012 10:19 Grackaroni wrote:
I think it was in response to Zephirdd's theory about him.
RoL has gone long enough delaying scumhunting, I think he's scum.
##Vote: RebirthofLegend
Also, some other reason's
First, on d1 after Palmar's flip i took a look at people who we're content on lynching him and people who are not.
d1 he say's
"An Errandor lynch is much better than Palmar"
also,
"Heck I'll also defend Palmar!"
On January 07 2012 10:04 Grackaroni wrote:Wiggles seems confident in his vote and I sincerely believe that he thinks Palmar is scum. In fact Wiggles' case has been extremely helpful because it was what prompted Palmar to get into this game, even if it was originally just so he could call wiggles bad. Show nested quote +On January 07 2012 06:09 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On January 07 2012 05:51 syllogism wrote:Wiggles what do you think about Erandorr and Risk nuke and don't you think that in a 6 scum game it would be safer play to lynch one of them or Tyrran as I would estimate that they are at least as likely to flip scum and are going to be considerably more worthless even if we happen to be wrong. I'm going out to eat in about 5 minutes. When I get back, I'll read through all their filters and give you my thoughts. The thing about lynching Palmar though, is that not many people here are going to be willing to lynch him later in the game. A lot of these newer players seem very reticent to lynch him, and I'm not sure why. They're coming up with excuses for his bad play, and trying to come up with flimsy excuses to not lynch Palmar. If I die, you die, or Jackal dies, not many people here would be willing to actually push a lynch on Palmar. They'll probably just sheep him to the victory of whatever scum faction he belongs to. Anyways, I'll be back later. This I don't really agree with, I would be perfectly fine with lynching Palmar later in the game I just don't think lynching a veteran with strong town play based off of meta is a good idea. people seem to feel that his scum play is really weak so why not give him a chance, give him another day to catch some scum or to build a case based less on meta that he is normally more active and aggressive as town. The bottom line is that I think Wiggles is sincerely convinced that Palmar is scummy and that this is not a scum ploy. Wiggles play looks pro town to me. But as for Jackal he seems less convinced that Palmar is actually scum, it looks more like he just dislikes him. Show nested quote +On January 06 2012 22:35 Jackal58 wrote:On January 06 2012 19:04 Tyrran wrote:On January 06 2012 11:14 Refallen wrote:
I'm thinking Jackal is town this game. At least, he appears to be taking a different route than on TLXLVIII when he was scum. Plus I don't think any scum would risk trying to outright lynch Palmar without a really detailed case.
I disagree with you here. From the few games I've read Palmar seems to be a efficient scum hunter.Bussing Palmar is therefore an good scum strat. Almost EVERY SINGLE one of Jackal post were attacking palmar. And he NEVER had more than 1 line of justification. He did not even refer to MrWiggles case. That is scummy play for me. Also note that as there is 2 scum faction, they can perfectly both be scum, one angel and one demon. I'll be looking at both of them today. Palmar need to step up his game, and Jackal needs to start become useful. Almost all of my day 1 posts attack Palmar. It's a habit. Not necessarily a bad one either. Why do you always attack Palmar? He is not the best vote for today.
Lastly,
How do you know they will flip scum?
(Both flipped town)
[rh][/rh]
On January 08 2012 09:34 Grackaroni wrote:
@BH/Layabout
FFS, they are probably both going to flip scum, we just need to avoid a no-lynch.
Right I think you guys just want to be the person able to brag about finding scum.
So, that end's my analysis on Grack.
Next in line, Spaackle
First,
On January 08 2012 11:07 Spaackle wrote:So, the experienced player obviously know how to play town (duh, they're experienced). They know how to be as helpful to the town as possible. Taking from Ver's guide(?) to town play: Link here (clicky)+ Show Spoiler +There are three main goals for the town on day 1 in a standard game:
1) Get useful information (often achieved via point 2)
2) Create an ideal atmosphere (will go over this in detail in town guide)
3) Figure out your plans/direction
The obvious way to analyze the situation would be to take the current players in suspicion and see if they are trying to achieve the above goals.: risk.nuke: Filter (clicky)1) Get Information -- I hate to make a meta argument, but I feel like it's necessary here. When I played with risk in Election, he spent much of Day 1 jabbing at other players and trying to squeeze info out of them. I feel like he isn't doing this so much now. Many of his posts have been reactions to the poking of others, and he's offered little analysis of his own. His play in this regard doesn't look very towney to me. 2) Create an atmosphere -- This goal is linked with the previous one. The best atmosphere for town is one where they can get as much information as possible. I feel like risk is falling short here too. He hasn't been offering many points for discussion, and his reactionary posting has most other townies snapping at him. 3) Figure out plans -- This is a tough one. There really haven't been any plans put forth by anyone, just some bandwagons and a lot of finger pointing. risk has been doing just about as much of this as everyone else. Risk's play is looking a bit scummy to me. He hasn't been offering much solid analysis, and he fans the flames of the arguments in the thread. We definitely need to pressure him some more tomorrow. More coming soon!
Hmm, in this post I only think he's scum because risk flipped town. Though, If I could ask him anything it would be anything else beside these three points
On January 08 2012 11:30 Spaackle wrote:Palmar:Filter (clicky)1) Get Information -- Palmar has been pretty active in this goal. He's been putting forth a lots of questions (even if no one answers them). He also pressured Bluelightz for a good while, trying to get an actual response out of him. He's also been putting lots of pressure on Wiggles, but this was mostly in response to Wiggles' accusation of him. I'd like to see a bit more justification out of him though. 2) Create an Atmosphere -- Palmar has been acting pretty town here too. He's been answering questions, and in turn posing many more. His posting hasn't been very reactionary, and for the most part, he's been trying to keep the town discussing relevant subjects. 3) Figure out Plans -- As I said in the risk.nuke analysis, there's hasn't been much of this in this game. Palmar is one of the closest to actually doing this. He's been trying to keep discussion relevant, and I guess this eventually leads to plans. Palmar is looking like a townie to me, but don't stop watching him.
Again, but this time is because Palmar flipped scum
On January 10 2012 13:02 Spaackle wrote:
I'm with you on this one, BH. At first I thought that the RoL plan was merely just an ill-thought out plan, but after your and Mr Wiggles' arguments against it, now I see that the RoL plan isn't just bad, but that it seems to be intentionally anti-town. I want to see a defense from RoL, but until then:
##vote RebirthOfLegend
"People wanna lynch him, hmm i'll join in too!"
so basically sheeping
On January 11 2012 15:51 Spaackle wrote:So, after reading through Tyrran's thread, he's starring to look pretty scummy to me. He's posted much less than most others in this game, and his posts are long and full of fluff. He seems to spend a lot of time trying to tell other players how to play when he could be giving analysis or answering questions. He also contradicts himself a few times. Posts that really stand out to me: + Show Spoiler +What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished.
Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him.
Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. And Okay, i misread and missed the color only claim part. My bad, gotta go back some new googles.
Your plan is therefore much better than i initially thougth. I still have an issue with how you are going to deal with corruption. Angels are not the only one that need to prevent a voting block from forming, we need to prevent it too. On one hand you say that corrupted town should claim, but on the other hand you also advise multiple claim. What does town gain form multiple corruption claim ? While i agree that this migth confuse scum, If the angels are in doubt on how to get rid of corrupted townies, how are we going to know how to deal with it ? These posts are a glaring contradictions to each other. Tyrran points out several large flaws in RoL's plan. However, when RoL clears up the color claim issue, suddenly these flaws aren't so bad anymore. To me this represents a bit of wishy-washiness on Tyrran's part. He's very opposed to RoL's plan one minute, then thinks it's not too bad the next. There's Also this bit: Show nested quote +Angels are not the only one that need to prevent a voting block from forming, we need to prevent it too. By we, does Tyrran mean town? Or is there some special we only him and RoL know about? This post caught my eye too: Show nested quote +Well I dont see how this could have gone better :D. One demon dead ( GJ DemonHunter or Angel Acolyte, whoever got him) and no unrevealed death. Perfect N1 for town. Here are some initial thought about what happened N1 :
On January 09 2012 12:14 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
I agree that it was most likely Palmar that sent me to purgatory, as I can't see any town player choosing to protect me over syllo, and I can't see town trying to use it for the roleblock on me instead of protecting someone. What I am more confused about is why he would do that.
Agreed. Syllo was one of the most valuable town assets day 1, channeler sending him to purgatory was the best and obvious move. Palmar maybe thougth you were AoD, and/or DemonHunter. He also maybe tried to protect you.
The fact that there were no ???? flip leaves us with 4 probability:
AoD targeted Syllo. This is unlikely. It was clear in the thread that the banish was going to be used defensively, and Syllogism was one of the most obvious target. I' not sure why angels would target him other than them being bad.
AoD targeted HarbingerOfDoom. This is a possibility. I'm not sure why they would choose him over BH, Wiggles, layabout tho
Syllo is the AoD. This is unlikely, he has been very active for town during day 1. Yet, we cannot ignore this possibility. I dont want him lynched today, but if he is banished again N2, and once again the AoD do not kill, then we will have to consider him as a lynch.
HoD is the AoD. This is a possibility too, but i'm not sure about it. I'll try to find some time to read his filter today.
Questions to discuss day 2 :
What do you guys think of Syllo and HoD ? Are they summy too you. Do you think they were liekly target for the AoD?
With no ???? flip, RoL plan could still be put into motion. What do you think about it? this is one of theposts that I really think paints Tyrran as a scum. He starts by congratulating the DH for the kill, then starts listing possibilities. His possibilities state what could have happened, but Tyrran doesnt really ever state what he thinks happened. Just "well maybe this or that." This noncommittal post also really highlights just how wishy-washy Tyrran has been this whole game. Tyrran, wha do you have to say for yourself?
Hmm, this seem's townish to me but what happen's next make's me suspicious.
He keeps on repeating the reason why he voted/unvoted RoL.
+ Show Spoiler +On January 12 2012 02:55 Spaackle wrote:
@Zeph I unvoted RoL because I thought there might be a better lynch than him. I posted my reads on Tyrran last night, and was going to do the same for risk today, but you guys hammered the lunch during my morning classes. I Would have voted risk, but I wanted to do a thorough analysis of his posts before I put the last nail in his coffin. You guys beat me to the punch.
The fact that risk flipped town is problematic. It brings us no closer to finding the rest of the scum. However, risk is still the best option for yesterday, IMO.
Tonight, DH should hit either Tyrran or RoL. On January 13 2012 08:50 Spaackle wrote:
When I moved off of RoL, it was because the argument between you and him had gotten kind of silly and was filling up the thread. I looked at both risk and RoL, and risk looked like thebetter lynch. I would have voted him, but he was hammered before I could. On January 13 2012 09:01 Spaackle wrote:
@BH I partially used my RoL vote to get him to come out in the open. I think he is a good lynch, and I did when I voted him, but risk was still better to me.
With risk's lynch, why is he more happy with lynching risk?
Lastly, please take a look that happily sheeped their way in to voting risk( without giving a reason)
Anyway, this sum's my thought's right now.
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On January 14 2012 00:52 syllogism wrote:
Even if we assume your assertion about aggressive dismissive posting to be correct, do you think it's something mafia is more likely to do? Being aggressive is certainly generally towny. How likely do you think it is for a person who has not played mafia elsewhere and playing only his second game here (according to his TL mafia census post) to play like that if he happened to roll scum? Do you seriously think he is the best lynch with 5 mafia left?
You make the mistake of thinking you need experience to pull off that style or that he should be timid because its his first game as scum. You can tell by his posting he doesn't possess a timid gene. The way you post matters much less on skill and experience and more so on how you are. Mafia can't be afraid to get out there and dominate discussion with there agenda. As a player with his attributes he actually fits perfectly into being able to do that.
That being said, combine what he has been doing D1 with his bullraging absolute tunnel of me day 2, yes, I think he is scum or I wouldn't of voted for him. I need to do more write ups when I get a few minutes later but I feel confident in my read of BH because my conclusions arrive from sound premises, if you want to discuss any issue feel free I have nothing to hide and I don't believe there will be any question I can't reasonably answer.
That being said, I will read more and post more analysis later anyway. I feel like this happens every damn game with me though, someone calls me scummy as shit for inactivity, I be productive, then get bitched at for actually producing something.
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That's not a mistake. I did not say you necessarily need experience, I was talking about probabilities.
WBG posts a lot like him as town and is a bit more subdued as scum.
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On January 13 2012 09:07 Grackaroni wrote:
@Layabout: Do you really think that Bluelightz would only post bullshit posts as scum? I think it's just his general style to make posts to say he's reading the thread or that he is going to school/sleep and asking people to ask him questions.
Imagine he is scum this game. Do you think that he would act like this as town as well or is his scum play just worse than his not yet seen town play.
Public Service Announcement!
The bullshit law is being be renamed Layabout's Horseshit Hypothesis for two reasons:
1) I think horseshit sounds better if you try to speak like a posh Englishman
2) I am fond of Alliteration
3) Due to a complete absence of experimental data the bullshit scores need adjusting:
I think it would be best to multiply all current "Horseshit scores" by a factor of 0.6 so that single instances of bullshit have less of an impact on the overall % chance and then the % chance will better account for the natural increase in amount of Horseshit over time.
This adjustment would change BL's Horse-shit based % chance of flipping scum from 66% to (0.84x135x0.6)/35+135x0.6)x100
58%
I think you do not understand the Horseshit law Grack, maybe you should go think about it.
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On January 14 2012 01:05 syllogism wrote:
That's not a mistake. I did not say you necessarily need experience, I was talking about probabilities.
WBG posts a lot like him as town and is a bit more subdued as scum.
This isn't a game of the coin flipping heads, people are different and how they play will be different. WBG is actually a good example of exactly what I was talking about.
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On January 14 2012 00:18 syllogism wrote:
Jackal RoL made promises too and didn't keep them. Are you not up to lynching him? What about dirkzor, your previous random vote you never bothered to push or justify? If you've to choose between Tyrran and RoL today, which one will you be voting?
I still think Dirkzor is scum. But nobody else wants to agree with me. I thought you may be scum as well until you got sent to Purgatory again and the AoD appeared. You may still be a demon but I'm not leaning that way atm. RoL has made an appearance other than his stupid plan. But it's basically appearing to be a great big OMGUS. I'd like to see what else he has to say about others today. Tyrran I think is just a derpy townie. I haven't played with him before so I'm not sure what to expect from him. Between the 2 I'd lynch RoL first but I think Dirkzor, Bluelights, or HoD are all better options. And I did push and justify my vote on Dirkzor. It wasn't 10,000 words so you ignored it.
I think the only reason Bluelights came back was because I put my vote on him. He's scum lynch him.
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On January 14 2012 01:21 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 01:05 syllogism wrote:
That's not a mistake. I did not say you necessarily need experience, I was talking about probabilities.
WBG posts a lot like him as town and is a bit more subdued as scum. This isn't a game of the coin flipping heads, people are different and how they play will be different. WBG is actually a good example of exactly what I was talking about.
Yes it is unless you can show that the kind of behaviour you you describe is much more likely to make someone mafia rather than an aggressive townie and even then you have to adjust based on what you would expect on newer mafia players in general.
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On January 14 2012 01:23 syllogism wrote:Show nested quote +On January 14 2012 01:21 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 14 2012 01:05 syllogism wrote:
That's not a mistake. I did not say you necessarily need experience, I was talking about probabilities.
WBG posts a lot like him as town and is a bit more subdued as scum. This isn't a game of the coin flipping heads, people are different and how they play will be different. WBG is actually a good example of exactly what I was talking about. Yes it is unless you can show that the kind of behaviour you you describe is much more likely to make someone mafia rather than an aggressive townie and even then you have to adjust based on what you would expect on newer mafia players in general.
I agree. There are some people here that can pull off aggressive scum play but without any prior knowledge of the way Blazing plays I couldn't call him scum from his attitude. I actually see him as one of the towniest here. Doesn't mean I agree with him on everything but if he's scum he has big kahunas.
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There is a very significant chance that HoD is the AoD.
In order for him to not be then AoD must have targeted him, Syllogism or a twisted Demon/townie night 1.(or not targeted anyone)
Killing the AoD is an extremely desirable propect as it reduces Angel KP and prevents the loss of information from the no-flip.
Given that there is a case against HoD and given the high chance of the AoD lynch, everybody should be strongly considering lynching him.
I intend to explain my specific thoughts about his play in detail tomorrow morning (IRL).
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Well, RoL, it looks like you've finally decided to make a case. It took till D3 ingame and several days of harassment but you're finally doing something that may nominally appear to be useful.
However, your case is against me, so I will defend myself. I don't count out the scumhunting efforts of scum automatically in this game because there are two factions-- you could well believe your own case, and be a Demon trying to edge his team back into this game, etc.
Without further ado, my point-by-point rebuttals:
On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Part I: Day 1 Day 1 for BlazingHand can be characterized by a couple of issues that I think are worth noting, but barring his Day 2 activity wouldn't necessarily consider top candidate. Firstly, he focuses heavily on the set up. Then we look at his interaction with the Palmar. The third thing I am not too sure how to feel about is his overbearing activity. He is absolutely dominating the towns posts, his filter quite frankly is such a ridiculous amount to read it would scare off most people. I know I usually wouldn't bother reading WBG's filter in games because its usually like 8-10 pages within the first couple of days. By the end of day two his filter was 14 pages long, and accomplished an absolutely retarded amount of nothing except making this game insanely annoying to read.
To be fair, the actual length of my filter (in terms of word count rather than, say, post count) isn't so bad. Most my posts are overwhelmingly short except for my analysis posts, which are few but long. My filter is susbtantially longer than average for this game, but not so much that it's some herculean feat to actually read it. I gladly encourage people to read and think for themselves rather than blindly accepting what RoL has to say (or even what *I* have to say, as a matter of principle) about any person's filter. By the end of day two, my filter didn't do nothing-- I successfully, erm, pushed an Erandorr lynch. Now, granted, Erandorr flipped town, but most people thought he was scum, and voted their thoughts. It wasn't like I was posting mindless drivel.
On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:So that being said let's get to his set up analysis. Now generally speaking, it is considered a bit scummy to dwell on a set up and post a about it. In this case due to the extremely unusual nature of the game I might be able to forgive that. For point of reference, I will include the posts in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 15:57 Blazinghand wrote:
Sup guys? I'm Blazinghand. :DDDDD
A thought from me: Angels have like 1.5 KPs atm, and that drops to 1 (since the acolyte doesn't always get a kill)-- their power goes down with time. Demons have 0 kps but fight us for control of the lynch (among other things), their power goes up with time.
The demon team isn't able to kill people, but it's got a lot of ways to manipulate elections-- and these only increase with power as the game goes on. I think the early game threat in terms of scum are angels, and the late game threat in terms of scum are demons, just because they could pretty easily control these elections.
The demons seem to have it tougher, but things will get much easier for them as the day goes on.
Also, due to the secret vote, vote count analysis isn't available, which makes me feel somewhat at a loss. I think we'll have to hold people accountable to what they say, since we can't hold them accountable to how they vote.
Although we have a variety of interesting blue roles at our disposal, our chief focus has to be on scumhunting and succeeding via lynch early while we still have assured control of the vote.
So, a question: we should/can totally claim corruption when we get corrupted? This exposes us to death via acolyte, but also lets us see who's corrupted and get an idea of how many votes we actually have doing something. This won't really be an issue for a couple days, though.
Another question: is it sensible at all to "try" to get angels or demons first? I haven't played in a multifactional mafia game before, and am looking for some advice here-- or do we just scumhunt and lynch who we find?
Another thought: the possibility for masked flips from the Angel of Death really scares me. I don't like the idea of someone dying and us not having any idea who it was. I don't really know what else to say on that subject but I thought I'd bring it up. We will, of course, be killing Angels exclusively via lynch-- our "vig" type role, the Demon Hunter, can only kill townies and angels.
Don't forget to breadcrumb everything, blues.
Also, let's try not to lurk, and promote healthy discussion like the sick nerd baller town we deserve to be. On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote:
Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote:
I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote:
Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" Show nested quote +
The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing On January 04 2012 16:57 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote:
Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. This sounds super correct. Once the Angel of Death or Angelic Acolyte is dead, claiming corrupted won't result in instant death since even if the Angelic Acolyte is still alive, at that point it'll be easier to just Slay rather than try to pick up a KP via Stalk. On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote:
Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier On January 04 2012 17:56 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 17:40 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:32 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 17:19 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:56 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:52 Refallen wrote:
Finally started! Hype!
My first thoughts on the setup;
Obviously, I think the best way to go about this game is to focus on killing angels in the early game. Once we get rid of the acolyte, the seer has an infinitely easier job in cleansing corruption because we can actually claim if we got corrupted and not get targetted right now as we get closer to the late game lynching demons obviously becomes more and more important, but town would have a huge benefit if we can reduce angel KP early on in the game, as this has a building effect of letting more townies live = demon corrupt has less of an impact. Oh right, kills resolve before corruption removal. T_T Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier You pointed it out in the post prior, I was reading the thread, and read the whole thread before replying to it, and his was the more recent mention of it so I hit the quote button on that one. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 16:20 Bluelightz wrote:
I think that the channeler should use his/her ability as a medic power as well as being a roleblock power Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability On January 04 2012 16:17 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
If we lose our demon hunter or sage, then we need to start worrying about the demons more, and if we lose both then they become a threat on par with the angels, if not a greater threat. Now, I am not really sure how to distinguish between angel and demon rather than just town or not town until we get an angel or a demon to flip, but if you have a leaning toward one or the other, remember that killing angels is more important for now.
I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. On January 04 2012 15:34 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:
All that being said, I don't want to hear about strategies for angels or for demons unless you also have a very good counter to said strategy that you will be sharing with us. They both already have 3 people per team to figure out the best way to play this setup, no sense in helping them out even more.
No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. On January 04 2012 15:51 Bluelightz wrote:
Well, helo guys anyway what do you think on how should we approach the day 1 lynch? step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. You are informed when you are corrupted. If the sage is still alive you say "I got corrupted" and then the sage cleans you of corruption. 2 cycles of demon powers taken care of. (they only get to corrupt every other night) As I said, I am not very worried about them until we lose our demon hunter or sage. What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff?Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order"
The Transport and Banish actions are resolved simultaneously before all other actions, and can consequently cause the other actions to fail.
All other actions except corruption and the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action are then resolved.
The corruption action is then resolved (even if the demon who is performing the action was killed the same night.)
Finally, the cleansing aspect of the illuminate action is resolved (even if the sage was killed the same night.)
The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing I explicitly said don't share them unless you have a counter. I never said I was against sharing ways to fight strategies. If anything my statement implies that you should share if you have a counter to an angel or demon strategy. Don't twist my words. Ok, but imagine an alternate situation-- you don't have a counter to a strategy, but it's likely the angels/demons have thought of it. wouldn't this be a good time to share so that you can learn stuff? Like, I don't like the idea of a bunch of town players who aren't working together and pooling their ideas. That sounds bad. That sounds like a pro-scum town environment. You seem to be harping on this quite a bit, and yet haven't posted a single demon or angel strategy. The closest you have come is posting the risk of claiming the corruption. So, are you just pointing fingers at me for no reason, or are you withholding information that in your opinion should be shared? Or do you have no idea of how they should play but feel like other people will know and should share it? Nice dodge-- respond with questions, yes, that looks credible. Look, I haven't thought of anything. But if I did, I'd surely share it with the rest of the town, and I encourage others to do so. Why are you so adamant about supporting a crappy posting policy? If I think of something, I'll share it with people, as should everyone else. I think this is what creates a good town environment. The last post specifically, I have bolded an interesting point. He wants us to share plans, then shits all over me when I do it. Fine whatever, the set up posting was minor we can let that slide.
The setup posting was minor? ._. there was nothing else to talk about. I don't know why you brought this up. If you don't feel this is an important part of your case, then I will not address it other than this: I wanted us to share plans, so I could promote a healthy town discussion and find scum. Someone shared plans-- and that person happened to be scum, and it became clear from his horrid, terrible plan (at least to me) that this was the case. This is not inconsistent with me wanting us to share plans.
On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:The next part I want to focus on is his other player interactions. Generally he is hostile with most players, while on Day 1 it can be a good way to generate discussion I don't believe that was entirely what he was doing, some of it was straight up bullying which just makes it so townies are less likely to challenge you, and more likely to sheep with you to avoid confrontations. I will include some of the posts in a spoiler once again. + Show Spoiler +On January 04 2012 18:06 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:03 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:57 Blazinghand wrote:
I'm not FoSing you or anything, HofD, I'm just saying that your policy ideas and posting ideas are bad, and I want everyone to know it so they don't follow your advice. I will "harp" on this as much as possible to promote good posts. Say this was a normal game of mafia and you were town. Would you discuss the ideal ways to play as scum? If not, why do you think discussing the ideal ways to play as demons and angels is a good idea? Ah yes you're right let's figure out how to fight scum without talking about how they think or what they might do, and if we have thoughts about this and need help let's not get help from each other about it. Hey look when I put words in your mouth it sounds bad too! The point i'm trying to make here is that a healthy discussion of what Angel and Demons might use as a strat and what we can do to counter it is very important, especially if you don't immediately know the counter strategy. On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote:IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE: Show nested quote +On January 04 2012 18:00 HarbingerOfDoom wrote:On January 04 2012 17:59 Refallen wrote:
Not to mention that while angels CAN kill demons, it hardly seems optimal for them. With 11 town and only 3 of each faction, for angels to kill off demons would just mean that town will have an easier time. I think that we can consider the scenario of angel and demon killing each other therfore, highly improbable. They don't know who is town and who is a demon. They might do it by accident. Granted, only the angel of death can do it accidentally (until the angel of death is killed at least) and then we'd never know the difference anyway. Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less. On January 05 2012 04:31 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:On January 05 2012 04:19 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 04:15 syllogism wrote:
If bluelightz doesn't contribute by the end of the day we can re-evaluate. I assume you mean an IRL day or something here right? We're not made out of time. Bluelightz had 3 hours, and he spent them making one-liners and posts that were literally meaningless. I consider this play to be anti-town. I don't care who does it-- you could have done it, and it would be anti-town. Then he bails. Given that he knew he had to bail in a few hours, he could have made a post with, well, content. But he didn't. No, I meant the first in-game day, that is to say up to 72 hours. Get used to certain players not immediately establishing their innocence, because that is going to be the norm. Whether bluelightz is going to be one of them remains to be seen, but there are "veterans" who to some extent do it every game. The fact that it's anti-town does not mean the optimal play is to lynch them every game for it. If you can pressure them to contribute, that's fine. The #1 goal of a town player should be to establish their innocence. Look, regardless of whether "oh bluelightz isn't establishing his innocence" or whatever, just look at that filter. That is an unhelpful dude. I don't have a solid scumread atm, but we've got 3 lurkers and one guy who's posted like 6 one-liners and said nothing. This is fine because probably the lurkers are asleep-- but ideally we have a sweet day1 discussion and get some juices flowing. I will not stand for an inactive crappy town. I will NOT get used to players not establishing their innocence. I will hunt down and kill all the scum whether in doing so I earn YOUR approval or not. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:27 syllogism wrote:Also is Mr. Wiggles actually playing? I see he edited his only post to say "can't", but he is still on the player list. Is Mr. Wiggles playing? On January 05 2012 04:34 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:28 layabout wrote:Bluelightz i think...: he lacks confidence in his own abilities that he may try to lurk that he has not tried to help that what he has written makes sense from a "town that has to get on a plane and will have limited internet acess" perspective he has provided us with very little that can be analysed effectively i do not think that there you can make all of those inferences + Show Spoiler +"profoundly unuseful" and "anti town" and say that they are his verdict and his damnation. BH at this point in time nearly any case you can come up with needs to forced and isn't necessarily helpful You seem to like throwing your vote around but do you really think that at the current moment in time everyone should vote for bluelightz to kill him, possibly end the day and let night actions happen? if i were the type i might accuse you of "trying to gain town cred by forcing a case based off of thin air." i will not do that.  If anything, I'm burning bridges. The fact of the matter is, I'm not trying to get town cred by forcing a case off thin air, because doing so is how you lose town cred. My case is solid as hell. The guy was here for 3 hours and made 6 posts saying nothing. This is unacceptable and I will not stand for it. Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 04:31 layabout wrote:
What i think we should do today:
I think that we should agree within the next few hours to commit to lynching a lurker day 1. If people do not post day 1, or try to hide, or like make 1 post then dip up out of here, of course we will lynch them. However, it's possible some of the players who haven't posted are still asleep, and it seems Mr. Wiggles may not be playing at all. Solid case indeed chap, you base it off useless posts. Definitely no signs of weakness. On January 05 2012 04:36 Blazinghand wrote:
Look if Bluelightz gets off his plane, realizes he's being a tool, and decides to seriously help out, I won't have as much of a case on him any more because he'll be being, well, helpful.
It's that simple. It won't be hard for him if he's being town.
step 1) be helpful
step 2) blazinghand is no longer attacking you And this guy gets up my ass about being a dick to players. On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote:On January 05 2012 08:26 Grackaroni wrote:
KK I'm back. I suggested the Bluelightz lynch and it looks like BH took a lot of shit because of me. No I took a lot of shit because of me. You didn't contribute to my Bluelightz idea at all, except to remind me he existed and is bad. If you like the bluelightz lynch, make a case and make your vote like a man. If you don't like it, don't do it. You make expand and defense it and you do so with vigor. Being like "hey guys should we pressure Bluelightz" and then apologizing for it doesn't help my case against him, and it doesn't help him either. Not to be abrasive or anything, I just don't think there's any reason to pull your punches. Oh cool, because you said not to be abrasive, then its all fine. This is just to establish the needless aggression and discouraging players. I want to establish a difference. When he is doing it here, it is to discourage people from coming against him. When I was posting abrasively in defense of my plan it served the purpose of attempting to shut down contention fast and efficiently because it was a rush scenario. The difference is his is to shut down objections to himself by less aggressive players, while mine was a tactical decision to help my plan get going on an extremely constricted time basis. Now for how he acted about Palmar. He starts off subtle trying to justify the case, then gets full swing behind it before jumping to an easier lynch in Erandorr/Risk.nuke. I will explain what I mean in the spoiler. Show nested quote +
So what do you think of all this, Blazinghand?
I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case.
I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar.
All that being said, I think there's something up with Palmar. I don't know why he's acting so weird, and it gives me the heebie jeebies.
Palmar comes off as scummy. I'm not taking into account his contributions after the Wiggles case, nor am I taking into account Wiggles' contributions after the initial response to Palmar's defense-- if Palmar is scum, it should be clear from his actions before Wiggles began putting together his tunnel. Also, most of that stuff has happened WHILE I was writing this post. It's kind of a long post.
I don't like his read on risk.nuke; I don't like the FASHION in which he pressure Bluelightz-- that is to say, ineffectively, noncommittally, and generally unhelpfully; and I don't like the defense of said pressure.
The one thing I'll say about his actions post-Wiggles-Accusation (besides his initial defense) since there's a lot of WIFOM rolling around based on whether or not he'll be more aggressive, etc-- is that I don't understand why he changed his vote to Erandorr.
I really don't.
And that's the reason I'm voting Palmar instead of Erandorr at the moment. I GET IT that Erandorr looks scummy. *I* think he looks scummy. But Palmar himself admits that given that he's town, he's horribly surprised that Wiggles would tunnel him like this. He even said "There's no way you're this bad" or something along those lines.
It makes no sense. None at all. The fact that it came right after my comprehensive case on Erandorr doesn't mean anything either-- maybe he was legitimately convinced, but he could have been looking for another wagon to hop on.
So why the sudden change, Palmar? Have you no explanation for me? You were so sure of Mr. Wiggles!
*shakes head*
##Vote Palmar
On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
He basically does an entire analysis using wiggles posts which makes him hold zero accountability. On top of this he uses it to justify a vote he has been easing himself into.
If you read the filter there is some more posts about palmar, but I feel this adequately sums it up. He hesitates to engage Palmar, then does it vicariously through wiggles arguments. When Palmar flips he could look good for this if it wasn't a two faction game. This is the reasoning I use to determine he must be an Angel. The part that makes him scummy is his absolutely shameless tunneling of me for 5 straight days, then compromising on a different mislynch.
'
Um, ok so I don't know if you actually read my posts, but I'm basically saying I think Mr. Wiggle's arguments are completely shitty and I make up my own to attack Palmar with. At that time of my post, I seriously entertained the idea that they were both scum from different factions.
The idea that I'm at once "aggressive and abrasive" but also "afraid to stick my neck out" is dumb. Let me show you the key areas of my case against Palmar where I basically smack down Mr. Wiggles:
"
Blazinghand Wrote:
Mr. Wiggles finds this more non-committal and hedging than I did. This is indeed one of many unhelpful posts by Palmar."
"
Blazinghand Wrote:
So Mr. Wiggles notes the same thing I do about Palmar's weirdness with Bluelightz. He also thinks the follow-up is bad. From a "Wiggles-as-town" perspective, there's two possibilities here: 1) Palmar got an accurate read of town from BL's wishiwashiness, or 2) Palmar is scum trying to look town."
Blazinghand Wrote:
I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case.
I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar.
what, you think I wouldn't remember MY OWN CASE? I didn't steal it from wiggles, I MADE IT UP MYSELF and SHAT UNREMORSEFULLY ON WIGGLES.
That's right guys, I wasn't noncomittal, as RoL claims: I STUCK MY NECK the fuckk out and attacked both players. I said
A) Palmar is scum
B) Wiggles is right for the wrong reasons
and I constructed my own case. Read the actual goddamn post before listening to RoL's bullshit: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=27#532
My case against Palmar speaks for itself.
I will be continuing this, addressing RoL's second case post in my next post.
|
Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Day 2; criticisms "wahh why is blazinghand so mean? my plan is good you guys... why do you all have to be assholes"
Whoa, RoL, no need to call us all assholes. That's totally uncalled-for. We're all friends here. In response to your statement proper: No, your plan is bad. Were you town, I'd think you might literally be the only guy besides risk.nuke in this game who thought that plan was even a remotely good idea.
On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:So moving forward, he not only continues to bring up my plan and how antitown it is and illogically dismissing my arguments which just causes chaos as me and him argue over the same points again and again until my plan is effectively dead. He shuts it down successfully because I don't have the time to argue all day, yet goes a step further and tries to implicate me as scum for it claiming it does things I established it doesn't do. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 06:46 Blazinghand wrote:So, here's RoL. On January 05 2012 22:25 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
lol sorry, I actually just got home and forgot this game started. Initially I thought I'd just finish up Responsibility mafia then jump over here but that doesn't seem like its going to happen anytime soon. I just need some time to catch up. ok so he lurked a bit On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. guys he's still lurking just hold on a sec On January 06 2012 15:34 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 06 2012 13:09 Bluelightz wrote:On January 06 2012 13:06 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Sorry, I had to finish up some business in the Responsibility game. Now that that is over this game gets my full attention. Who do you want to lynch? why? I am off from work tomorrow and I plan to catch up then. I just finished like 3 hours of reading for responsibility after getting home from work. Tomorrow afternoon I will catch up, post, and give my thoughts. ok guys TOMORROW, TOMORROW he will sto the lurk. On January 07 2012 23:58 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Sorry for my inactivity, I really I am. Some stuff came up that took up my supposed free time to post both yesterday and the day before. I have work 10-6 EST today (Currently 9:56) but after that I will try to deliver and post a lot more, this isn't going to be a game full of excuses from me. But until then I will cast a vote on the current vote leader. My logic here is that a lynch is better than a no lynch in terms of information and analysis, although it doesn't look like we will make the lynch cutoff and I want you guys to have that opportunity assuming I don't get back here in time today.
##Vote: Erandorr ._. So you know what RoL I don't like that you lurked for all of D1. That being said, that alone will not implicate you for anything. I think it's worth noting here that uh... you didn't actually vote Erandorr. woo-hoo. This during the last-minute scramble: On January 08 2012 09:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I am going to try to read the last few pages and get an idea of whats happening since there isn't much time left, if anyone wants to summarize feel free. On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. At last we come to the first real post. First, you claim to have voted Erandorr when you have not at all. A simple mistake, but not a good start. He makes some reasonable points but I consider this a somewhat unsupported "vote" and yet still no vote. On January 08 2012 09:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Stupid bot never PMed me back, I sent like 2-3 votes. On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On January 08 2012 09:56 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
My first vote didn't have purgatory in the subject heading, because it doesn't say that in the OP, my second vote was a mess up, and the third vote was too late. On January 08 2012 09:57 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:56 Blazinghand wrote:On January 08 2012 09:54 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Yeah, but I sent my new vote after the lynch rofl. Whoops! I thought it ended at 8:00, didn't realize it ended at a 45, how irritating. On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote:
Voting System:
This game utilizes the Instant Majority Lynch system. If at any point during the day over half the players alive are voting to lynch a particular player, that player will be instant For some reason, I am not thinking right now. I knew that lol, until today all I have been doing is reading and analyzing the set up and trying to figure out how valid some plan I have is. ._. OK we're still in honest mistake territory, but as you can see RoL's D1 play was somewhat underwhelming. Does this paint him as scummy to me? Sort of. Maybe he WAS too busy to stop by and kept on telling us that he was catching up. Maybe he DID send a bunch of bad messages to zbot. Maybe he really didn't understand the voting situation. Maybe all he's been doing is analyzing the setup. I'll buy that, MAYBE, if he's got something good to say. So Mr. RoL what you got? Well although his suggestion was ultimately not implemented, since it's the only thing he's really talked about, that's what I'm gonna look at. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Intro This plan is essentially a mass role claim, but for a reason. Here is how I tend to implement it. Everyone claims not their role, but there color. We should have 4 blues (Townies with powers) and then 13 green (townie without power) on the off chance we end up with 5 blues they all claim their actual roles, when we see which roles have conflict we act from there. In this game one of the things heavily working against the town is status quo and the flow of information. The Angels have someone who kills without showing alignment while the Demons have the capacity to block the flip of a day lynch. What this plan does is preempts that decline in information because we know (roughly) all alignments before shit hits the fan. For example, if the Angels annihilate one of the blue power roles and it has never been claimed they can now safely claim the power role, basically just one of the detective type roles, but either way at that point they KNOW they are safe from a counter claim. In this scenario we put all the information out there knowing that it benefits us more than anyone else. The way I intend this to work is we all claim which forces the demons and angels into a bad position. No information is truly hidden, and we have just taken away 4 possibilities as candidate for scum either way. which means in a group of 15 players, 6 are now scum. that's a 40% chance of hitting scum through sheer guessing. The real benefit comes in how the mechanics interact.
ಠ_ಠ Ok, I get that the concealed lynch / concealed kills thing is a problem. I get that. I get that as the game goes on and more people die, things will get harder for the town. I also get that a concealed lynch destroys a huge amount of information. The DT can't breadcrumb his findings if he gets conceal-shot by the AoD, etc. However, this just means we need to be careful about roleclaims and be effective during our early days when we haven't had more doubt introduced into our reads by flipless deaths. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. So in the end the Demons would benefit highly by managing to corrupt our blues because it will be harder for Angels to kill them, but they also benefit by spreading out corruption and forcing the Angels to spread KP to avoid being overwhelmed as the game progresses.
Actually this looks respectably bad for the angels. I'm not sure I buy the "demons will always jail the blues" line but I can get how the Angels will try to kill off corrupted towns instead of blues with their Acolyte, maybe. But there are a lot of nights where there isn't a corrupted townie around! And on those nights the Angels get plenty of KP. I also don't like the idea of trading out our blue roles for a "confirmed voting block". Our blues will be largely unable to act due to roleblocks, getting shot, and roleblocking themselves rather than demons. We're giving up most of our blue power for something like this. The last thing is I'm not really sure how this makes things worse for the demons. They're still gonna be doing the same thing, which is corrupting people and biding their time. In fact, given that it will be harder for Angels to kill corrupted towns, as RoL NOTES, THIS MAKES THE DEMONS STRONGER. The corrupted situation will get out of hand and our demon DT will be roleblocked plenty of times, and eventually, even if we kill off an angel or two this is bad news for town. On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Discussion Here is where we discuss the pros/cons of the strategy. First I must clear something up. Speed is paramount to the success of this strategy. We need ALL the blue claims before the day post to ensure integrity because as soon as the first annihilation happens no claim can be trusted as without fault. There is a reason why semiclosed set ups are used in the huge majority of TL games. Knowing a role count makes the game progressively more broken and doesn't allow for any sort of fake claim. The annihilation (angel) and lynch hiding (demon) mechanics are clearly in place to allow for fake claims and a downswing in truly knowable information. We need to preempt this disadvantage and get information out in the public before it is untrustworthy. The downside to this plan? An increase in Angel KP and the decrease in blue role efficiency due to purgatory inflicting powers such as transport and banish. The pros I have pretty much outlined earlier. We know all roles, we end up with 4 confirmed townies and a narrowing of the scum field to a 40% chance. While our blues powers are semi neutralized their voting powers remain intact and unless the Demons want to chance it, incorruptible. This eliminates fake claims and drastically helps out with the decreasing information we will have throughout the game by knowing someones *likely* role before they die while having a confirmed group. Overall this looks like it will increase the rate at which angels will kill blue roles, and will buy the demons more time to win. Our Demon Hunter seems to be on the ball. He shot Palmar (I think; maybe it was the acolyte). I'm not particuarly interested in giving the scum teams any advantages here. I think that mass roleclaim is dumb and will hurt the town, and I think RoL is scum trying to get us to do something dumb. I think this plan is basically a pro-demon plan. Others agree with me. Let's examine RoL's defense of his plan. On January 09 2012 00:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 23:53 Bluelightz wrote:
So I claim townie
On December 28 2011 15:39 Zona wrote:
Angelic Acolyte (x1)
You are still in training to be angelic warrior, so you take great care in everything you do. But should the need arise, you are ready to do what you must. Every night, you may target a player to stalk. When you do so, choose one of: demon, corrupted town, or town with dark powers. If your target matches your choice, that player will be killed. If the Angel of Death has been eliminated, you may (instead of stalking,) target a player to slay. That player will be killed. You win with the angels. You may communicate outside of the thread with your angelic teammates, who are:
He can't choose "townie". All town claims are safe until they claim corrupted. Bluelightz makes a dumb objection and gets shot down. On January 09 2012 00:04 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I didn't have time and you are misreading. I said if Erandorr flips scum then the shipjumpers should be suspect. The principle is still true. Without a DT check the chance of a vote switch hitting a townie without something significant happening is so incredibly low because mafia wouldn't let you so easily switch from a townie to a mafia. I don't know what else there is to explain. Erandorr was the initial, Risk,nuke was the switch. The switch is less likely to be scum than the original. For all the time spent "reading the thread" and "catching up" RoL doesn't seem to have, um, read the thread. It's great that he accuses someone of misreading while misreading ;_; On January 09 2012 03:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Most of the posts I read don't fully understand the game set up when attacking the plan. Secondly, from what I can tell at the time risk.nuke looked like the switch, not the initial. That could be my fault though. Either way in a two faction game assuming the initial is scum then the switch would be supported by one and neutral by the other still giving a switch a higher risk of being town. I explained how a switch tell was weaker in two faction vs one but still valid. I can't type much more because I'm on my shitty cell phone and my breaks almost over but read the rules and under how the acolyte works. He CAN'T kill townies, just townie with power, corrupt townie, or demon. Therefore KNOWN blues are a high priority target since they are a confirmed voting power which is the only threat to angels since they can't die through night actions. Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: + Show Spoiler +On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. On January 09 2012 03:30 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Also, no one except scum has an incentive to fake claim blue so whoever said that is an idiot. Any lie is inherently antitown and should be treated as such. No blue would hide in greens because that would be antitown and stupid. On January 09 2012 03:32 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Oh and blues DON'T claim role unless there are 5 of them. And the mafia can only feasibly claim two of them, the seer and the sage or w/e the two that check alignment which would still 50/50 our demon hunter. On January 09 2012 06:41 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 05:29 Spaackle wrote:
@RofL While I agree that we need a plan for day 2, yours is not the one I would go with. Mass claiming like that will only paint a target on our blues for the scumteams. We'll lose our blue powers so fast that we'll get almost no use out of them, and where will we be then?
This game isn't about blues, its about killing scum. Our blues can help with that, but any plan around them is stupid. I view them as confirmable voting power in this game which is MUCH more important than anything else. This game is about scumhunting, or blues are actually relatively weak. We have a jailer, two detectives that can only detect half the scum, so if they see someone scummy they may be right and not even get an answer, and a vigilante who can't kill half the scum but can shoot everyday. The vig is good, but rest of the power roles are relatively weak. The stronger element is their threat as a voting entity. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. On January 09 2012 07:20 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote:On January 08 2012 23:40 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Alright so I said I had a plan and I aim to flesh it out. I will like to section this into three areas, Intro, Mechanics, and Discussion. I feel that is the most direct and simplest way in which to understand this plan. All criticisms are welcome, but I am sure I have thought of most concerns and justified them somehow.
Mechanics This is the part that takes more to understand and was a lot more effort to think around (hopefully) all the possibilities. One of the biggest is obviously the Angelic Acolyte who gets an extra KP if he correctly guesses townie with dark powers, corrupted townie, or Demon when performing his stalk action. This only really affects a minority of townies, namely our blues and those minority who become corrupted. I think we can counter this by using banish amongst the claimed blues as a form of protection, and at the same time the Demon's will be given incentive to also use their transport as a form of protection and a dual threat. Firstly, it increases the chance of blocking an Angel KP which the Demons want to do, secondly it takes a blue power out of action for the night. This is fine because it still maintains our voting power in the day time. This causes there to only be a 50% success rate of the angels target into the blue circle. At the same time if the demons wish to corrupt a blue and jack their vote, they have a 66% chance of not hitting a jailor block. At the same time regular townies can be corrupted and they should claim. The longer the game draws out for the angels the more they NEED to kill corrupted townies/demons before the lynch against them is completely controlled. We can further increase this problem by having several people claim corrupt every day so the Angels can't be sure if they are going to use their extra KP effectively. The more dire the corrupted situation becomes the less they can focus on blues, and that gives us more confirmed townies with less players alive, further shrinking the town player pool narrowing down the angel/demons in the townie section of the group. What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Once again, issues arise from illiteracy. As I said earlier, the blue roles NEVER claim their role, just their color. This prevents effective use of banishment/Transport and turns it into just a guessing game. The angels need to kill a confirmed voting black because they can't let four confirmed fucking townies sit around all game and hope for the best. Point two, demons won't know who the demon hunter is to properly banish him on top of which as stated earlier, he acts as a permanent town aligned voting block. The goal of the demons is to eventually control the vote, and that's how they win. They have no KP. The angels need to prevent a solid voting block from forming. I don't know what about this comes off as that complex. The scum teams get huge information regardless. They KNOW who they kill, this way we also know who they kill. This comes back to the annihilate mechanic. We open ourselves up to fakeclaims by not mass claiming before fake claims are possible. I don't think you get how a no flip mechanic works in this game, or in any game. When the mafia knows the information and we don't, we are at a disadvantage. When the Mafia can't fake claim, the town is at an advantage. When we confirm players as absolutely innocent, guess what? We win again. After today the mafia can safely fake claim and nothing is confirmable, my plan preempts this issue. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 00:43 layabout wrote:
RoL's plan:
How do the angels react to the colour claim?
They probably target blues as they wish to kill town blues
They could hide amongst the blues for protection or the sea of greens for anonymity
No, any more than 4 blue claims we have everyone claim and kill the contradictions. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
therefore how do demons react to this plan?
they claim green to reduce the chance of being killed by angels
they take a massive risk and claim blue increasing their chances of being killed
No mafia has the opportunity to claim a blue role without instantly getting caught and killed. There is a counter claim, we will figure it out, and the scum faction loses a player and all we lose is 1 confirmed townie and a voting block in the worst case scenario for us, but regardless they lose the mafia. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Why would the demons want to protect non-demon claiming blue?
after all they need to kill two blues as part of their win condition.
A voting block threatens angels more than blues. But more importantly it doesn't matter. Its a double edged sword, they are shutting down blue powers which threaten them while also inadvertently protecting them which preserves there voting power. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Why would the demons wish to corrupt a blue when then need to kill 2/4 town blue and when town blues are getting banished and demons only get corrupt every other night?
Because their goal is to control voting power, and controlling voting power that the town and the angels will hesitate to kill is beneficial to them. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I think it is very likely that some people will not like this plan and that some town aligned people will fake-claim if it goes ahead, wouldn't this ruin the whole plan?
Feasibly yes, but as soon as you guys realize its beneficial and the blues claim then every town aligned player should understand how detrimental lying is and therefore not do it. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
If no vanilla town fake-claim then then angels will be killing a demon or blue every night, the only way to stop this is with the channeller. If the channeller dies and the demons do not protect blues town could lose all blues town could lose 4 blues in two nights, whilst that is an extreme scenario the plan is over reliant on the channeller +demon help AND we might not even know if the channeller is killed.
It's called analysis. We have a smaller pool (-4 confirmed townies from suspects) to choose from and we can figure out the rest with skilled analysis. In the worst case scenario, it is possible that we could lose all the blues in two nights, but that still gives us AT LEAST one day of confirmed townies. If even one hit fails due to purgatory they are fucked. The angels have to maintain a status quo among Corrupted townies and eliminate demons, a blue circle should be a second priority for them. by day 3 in your perfect 4/4 blue dead scenario the demons have +3 corrupted townies and effectively control the lynch winning the game. If the Angels intend on winning they can't let that happen. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Doesn't this plan give scum more information than it gives to town because they will know some of the fakers for certain?
They know if someone is faking if they are faking it, and they will lose that player instantly or after taking one blue, either way a fair exchange. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. On January 09 2012 07:35 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
the more honest town is the better off the angels are.
the less honest town is the less information town has but the better off they are in terms of living blues.
it potentially put angels in a good position and demons in a manageable decision whilst it could put town in an okay-really bad position
...
bad plan
perhaps it can be adjusted but i think that currently it would do far more harm than good.
You're wrong. ._. Lastly, as the tide turns against him: On January 09 2012 08:31 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I am heading out for the night. On January 09 2012 08:59 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 08:41 syllogism wrote:
We aren't mass claiming and regardless of how good you think your plan is, you shouldn't try to get people to claim individually as that's just awful. It starts with one person, but if no one takes that step then it doesn't matter. No one bother claiming now there isn't enough time and we can't guarantee all the blues are active now. On January 09 2012 09:48 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 09 2012 09:06 Zephirdd wrote:
RoL, there is a main problem with your strategy in that it is highly dependent on an excellent town that can scumhunt effectively and identify scum easily with the claims.
The problem is when nobody fake claims blue. We essentially go back to beginning, except our blues are exposed. You are relying in a unreliable resource - Town - by making a bet where you kill/expose a reliable resource - our Power Roles. Right now, scum PRs have a ~1/17 chance of hitting their wanted target, where when you make our blues expose themselves, it falls down to 1/4.
No, your plan is crazy as fuck. No matter what, this just looks like a scum plan, even given the setup. With townies like you, who needs mafia. Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD This is the post I am referring to here. You can read the whole exchange after this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan.
Um... what? Let me read that back to you guys again in case you didn't spot the misleading sentence by RoL:
RoL:
I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan.
Time is against you on Page 56? Oh I guess the end of N1 was coming up huh. Maybe my arguing against you during that crucial time prevented you from pusing your plan, eh?
Wait, no..
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=49#966
Oh waht's this? Day 2 started 7 pages earlier? Weird, I thought that I shut down your plan? Huh. Weird indeed.
On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On day two, I am not attempting to defend my plan for the sake of implementation but more because he's using at as a basis to call me scum, which is flawed in so many ways. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote:
Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game:
1) lurk for most of d1
2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail
3) push his bad plan
I don't see how he's town The biggest thing though is his constant misrepresentation of things that I said and ignoring shit. 1. I explained this, I was finishing up responsibility in a lylo scenario where we won as town. 2. I explained my logic. If you have a problem with it then attack the logic, don't blanket misrepresent my post. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:On January 08 2012 09:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
If two people switch to Erandorr, I'll hammer. Otherwise, move back onto risk.
RoL, have you read "the last few pages" yet, it's been a half hour. I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. 3. My plan isn't bad. When we are discussing the merits and everything don't blanket call me scum for your inability to read. It's just more examples of complete misrepresentation of the facts.
On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote:
Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game:
1) lurk for most of d1
2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail
3) push his bad plan
Um... that's literally waht you've done this game. And you can SAY your plan was good all you want, it's still bad ._.
I think this is just like so telling of RoL in general. He claims time was against him in the middle of day 2? He still had like several IRL days before the end of night 2 (before any masked flips happened) and he didn't try to get his plan pushed through for the rest of day 2 or any of night 2. He had tons of time.
???
I think RoL is just like misleading us here. I'm not even 100% sure this is a scum move, as his argument is so bad it's beyond meta-- it's just a terrible worthless meaningless QQ argument. "Oh Blazinghand shut down my plan and I ran out of time during the 4 day day/night cycle".
On January 13 2012 14:33 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 09:07 Blazinghand wrote:
Are you serious? RoL literally lurked all day d1 and then posted the shittiest of all possible plans "herp derp let's mass roleclaim" then disappared again. Link me to your case on risk.nuke and I will consider it, do my own analysis, and offer a read, but do you REALLY THINK ROL'S PLAY HAS BEEN PRO TOWN??? Further misrepresentation. I was gone for like 8 hours between my plans initial posting, me sleeping, posting a bit from work, then getting home and defending it more. I have shit to do and he continues professing bullshit. The thing is, when you have 20% of all the god damn posts people might begin to believe you after a while. Show nested quote +On January 10 2012 09:27 Blazinghand wrote:On January 10 2012 09:24 Refallen wrote:On January 10 2012 09:10 Blazinghand wrote:
Refallen do you think there are any circumstances under which a town RoL would suggest that plan? RoL is a pretty smart guy. Yes. In the pre-game someone suggested a mass role-claim too. It isn't impossible for a town RoL to suggest the plan, and at the very least it seems that he has thought through it enough to address some common criticisms. But that's not the point. I rather stay on risk.nuke because I think he's a better lynch, I remember the last time you tried one of your hustlin' cases, though I do agree that RoL needs to do more this cycle. Just because I voted for risk.nuke does not mean I think RoL to be town. The fact of the matter is, the case on Erandorr was sound, and he got lynched because he played like scum. I think there are 9 players who agree with me on that. Furthermore, saying "well Erandorr was lurking too" isn't the point. The main point of my post isn't RoL's lurking. It's what he's posted and what he hasn't posted. Things RoL has posted: a massive, terrible plan that took a lot of time to write up and is anti-town. Things RoL hasn't posted: anything useful. This isn't a case of a guy lurking. This is a case of a guy lurking, then putting a lot of effort into something that would sink the town. Are you really saying "RoL needs to do more this cycle" when he has actively suggested possibly the worst plan of all time? No, I think RoL has done just what he's wanted to. see for yourself my actual case on RoL, since you seem to think i'm claiming we should lynch him due to inactivity: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 He keeps up dominating posting and shutting down contention without explaining himself. The big thing here is he doesn't look for ANYONE except me. Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 03:38 Blazinghand wrote:On January 13 2012 03:37 layabout wrote:
Blazinghand please stop being an idiot.
Make actual arguments and criticsms.
Realise that you will not be right all of the time.
Stop the tunnelling.
Grow a pair. >no you're an idiot >um what >I'm not right all of the time, see E-dawg >I'm gonna push RoL because he's scum. The fact that you're blind to the truth doesn't mean i'm tunneling >no u LayAbout points it out and he continues aggressively dismissing players. Yet at the end of the day what happens? He is so sure I am scum but because I know how to defend myself without spamming 14 pages into a game he won't get a lynch on me, then just jumps over to risk.nuke to kill another townie. Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 23:47 ZBot wrote:End of Day 2 Lynched: risk.nuke (9): Bluelightz, Refallen, - Bluelightz, syllogism, Bluelightz, Zephirdd, RebirthOfLeGenD, Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Cwave, Jackal58Current votes: Tyrran (2): HarbingerOfDoom, DirkzorRebirthOfLeGenD (1): Blazinghand, Mr. Wiggles, Zephirdd, Spaackle, Cwave, - Zephirdd, - Spaackle, - Blazinghand, - CwaveCwave (0): Dirkzor, - DirkzorDirkzor (0): Jackal58, - Jackal58
The second day in some ways felt better than the first. The extreme weather that battered the area the day before was not present, in its place was an eerie calm that made the survivors strangely nervous. Many took the time to search for whatever food and clothing they could find, and stashed them in secret hoards. The conversations between the living were carried out with suspicion, no one could trust anyone else. By midday, the air had become unbearably hot. The sun seemed larger and oddly red in the sky. The heat of its rays was intense on the skin. A few would collapse for moments at a time in exhaustion, but no one would find any relief. Those who were religous cursed their gods for allowing them to suffer such a fate. But their will was not broken. The town's resolve to identify and eliminate the inhuman invaders in their midst continued to be strong. Survival. Victory. Revenge. Whatever the reason, those that remained continued the fight of their lives. As each individual formed their own opinions, the throne continued to glow and hum. As soon as their innermost thoughts came to an invisible consensus, a figure was abruptly jerked towards the throne and spire. Again, beams of light from the whirling wheels began to focus upon the condemned. In no time, a scream of pain pierced the air as risk.nuke's body exploded into cloud of pink mist. risk.nuke, the Town Vanilla was lynched Day 2!It is now Night 2. The night will end 2012-01-13 10:00:50. (That's approximately 1 day, 10:13:00 from now.) It just doesn't make sense as a townie. You think I am scum 100%, so completely certain yet you abandon your guns after tunneling me for 5 straight actual days in place of an easy mislynch? I don't get it, no one does. Sure you thought he was mildly suspicious but you can't very well say "Sure I think hes town, but I can't get you all to kill RoL so I'm switching over" The fact is your actions don't line up with your words and you spam the shit out of the game to get your way. I conclude that after all this crap you must be an Angel. I have shit to do and am getting yelled at, when I get up tomorrow we can throw down more, I needed to cut this case short. I also have a few more things I need to write tomorrow but we can get to that later. Anyway, ##Vote BlazingHand
This is a bunch of BS.
There is actually a legitimate criticism in here, though, a kernel of meaningful opposition in a veritable mound of turd. Why did I vote to lynch risk.nuke?
Well, I also thought risk.nuke was scum. I wasn't 100% on him like I basically am on RoL. Why did I vote for risk.nuke? What could he possibly say or do that would make me actually more sure of him than RoL?
What weird, unanswered questions. I wonder if RoL would PULL UP MY VOTE POST AND SHOW THE EVIDENCE??? No, he wants only to mislead, to misinform.
On January 11 2012 15:37 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On January 11 2012 15:32 risk.nuke wrote:
Whatever, Fuck this.
Lynch me, I'm done. I could fight to stay alive but I don't have any motivation. The entire town is either tunneling me, sheeping and everyone is ignorning everything that doesn't fit me beeing scum-scheme which is a fucking lot. Syllogism the bandwagon starter have failed to provide reasoning and just ignored all of my pleads for him to do so. But to top it of, town seem contempt with allowing votes without reasoning. Even if I were to keep on living I wouldn't have any motivation to play with a town like this, I could say good luck town but you guys are screwed.
Once I flip, lynch syllogism the bad tunneling angel and every fucking one who used something along the lines of this "I don't like RoL as a lynch because of X so I'm going with risk.nuke" for reasoning. ._. no townie would ever say this. Welcome to the top of my list, punk. ##Vote: risk.nuke
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=64#1270
The fact of the matter is, risk.nuke made a post that no townie under any circumstances would make. That is simply not a post you make. The job of a townie is to not get lynched first and foremost-- and him doing this indicated to me that he was claiming scum.
So I lynched him.
And I stand by that decision.
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On January 13 2012 11:10 Zephirdd wrote:Show nested quote +On January 13 2012 11:04 Refallen wrote:
That's retarded. After syllo posted his "I want to die", channeled should have taken the hint and roleblocked harbringer instead. Or maybe he had the same logic as me? At least this now confirms syllo as town. MrWiggles was town as well; He couldn't possibly be Demon(see his Palmar case). We just won't know if he was a blue or not. TBH that was a poor decision by the AoD, unless he had actually found an Angel and was ready to push him. His last actions were attacking RoL. Apply Occam's Razor(The correct solution is usually the simplest one), ##Vote RoL
What is poor about the decision to kill and experienced player that had already caught 1 scum this game?
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I'm going to sleep now. Cya in the morning
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 14 2012 00:18 Grackaroni wrote:
I don't think BH is nearly as pro-town as people think he is.
Alright, Grack's finally starting to think for himself.
On January 14 2012 00:18 Grackaroni wrote:Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 08:56 Palmar wrote:On January 08 2012 08:53 syllogism wrote:
Palmar why won't you switch? Will you switch if we can get enough? Erandorr has done nothing this game that warrants me giving him the "I'll rather no-lynch than lynch a townie" treatment, however, despite risk's last effort, do you not think he overreacted to you calling him out? Claiming that plan that literally was nothing but "I'm gonna post and see what people say", do you think he is honestly under the impression that this "plan" was so pro-town and vital, that it justifies attacking someone? I actually thought risk.nuke was decent at the game. But to answer your question, I'll be around for another half an hour or so, and there is no reason to protect erandorr. Show nested quote +On January 08 2012 09:02 Blazinghand wrote:On January 08 2012 08:56 Palmar wrote:On January 08 2012 08:53 syllogism wrote:
Palmar why won't you switch? Will you switch if we can get enough? Erandorr has done nothing this game No this is wrong Erandorr has actively come to the thread and hustled us. Why on earth are his actions remotely acceptable There have been times in this game where BH has blatantly not read the thread or is misinterpreting posts. He likes to focus in on people who he feels are useless such as his case for Bluelightz (which only showed that he was anti-town) his case on erandorr (he ignores the meta which only proves that he is inactive and doesn't want to be modkilled) and finally his case on RoL (he's not scumhunting, his plan looks shitty)
Um... OK never mind, I take it back-- Grack is terrible.
1) My case on Bluelightz was to pressure him. I think I did a good job. I also think I might need to lay some more pressure onto Bluelightz at some point because he has been profoundly unhelpful this game.
2) my case on erandorr what? Erandorr played like shitty dick, and the fact of the matter is, he deserved the lynch he got. I only wish he weren't terrible at playing town and weren't lurking and hustling. He literally did like nothing all game. In the same situation, I'd do the same thing again.
3) um... if you think my case on RoL is bad, make a case for it, don't just say it's bad.
Grack, all I can say is that if you want to criticize me that's totes fine, but you should make quotes and like, actually formulate a case rather than... whatever you call this. LOL
On January 14 2012 00:18 Grackaroni wrote:
You are not actually scumhunting, you just lock in on people acting anti-town and tunnel them for the rest of the day to make yourself look good. you grab all their quotes and make a "case" but in reality it actually resembles what bluelightz' cases look like.
Your play is legitimately worse than in Student.
I am still suspicious of how long it took RoL to start scumhunting but at least he finally started.
@BH: why not look into a player more active rather than only focusing on players doing nothing? there's 5 scum to catch.
My play is worse than in Student? Well, that's saying very little. In Student i single-handedly brought down the entire scumteam, and did a fake anti-doctor claim and bought Veli the time he needed to investigate. Being worse than in Student is no problem at all-- if I play a little worse than I did in Student Mafia I'd have lynched 1/3rd of the mafia and fingered the other third by now
And the fact of the matter is, RoL hasn't been just a little late or whatever, it's day 3.
In any case, I've made my reads and I stick by them.
Grackaroni, I've you've got something to say, come at me bro. If you're gonna dick around and not make a real case? I'll just keep on smacking you back down into the mud.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
OK I think someone else posted a question for me but I can't find it ;_; um if I missed anything please let me know.
Also I've got serious issues with BL hustling us, but I consider RoL to be priority #1. BL you better be more useful then pointing out what a shitty player Grack is cause we all already know that.
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@BH Those are my concerns... My case may not look like your's but I can give you an example of what your's would look like.
*post a bunch of BL random useless posts*
B-Dawg is hustling let's lynch.
you're not actually looking for scum you simply find somebody who is bad or inactive and prove why they are bad or inactive and tunnel them.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On January 14 2012 03:03 Grackaroni wrote:
@BH Those are my concerns... My case may not look like your's but I can give you an example of what your's would look like.
*post a bunch of BL random useless posts*
B-Dawg is hustling let's lynch.
you're not actually looking for scum you simply find somebody who is bad or inactive and prove why they are bad or inactive and tunnel them.
Quotes and evidence? Just listing "concerns" without backing them up isn't gonna convince our fellow townmates, Grack. You gotta put some effort in. Cmon, man-- if you really believe your case, surely you can spend a moment to find some evidence?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Fuck I don't even know why i'm trying to help you. Look, if you're town, make a real case, and if you're scum, have fun burying yourself.
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EPT
