EPTPurgatory Mafia - Page 77
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Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On January 13 2012 10:21 Grackaroni wrote: Wait why does it say that it is dusk? has day not begun yet?? What? | ||
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Grackaroni
United States9846 Posts
nevermind. It said it was dusk earlier in the zbots vote count area (instead of night/day), it must just take a little time to setup. | ||
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Refallen
452 Posts
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On January 13 2012 10:56 Refallen wrote: Why would you send syllo to purgatory again? ... Somebody is firmly convinced Syllo is town and is protecting them or somebody firmly believes Syllo is scum and is role blocking them. | ||
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Refallen
452 Posts
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On January 13 2012 11:04 Refallen wrote: That's retarded. After syllo posted his "I want to die", channeled should have taken the hint and roleblocked harbringer instead. Or maybe he had the same logic as me? At least this now confirms syllo as town. MrWiggles was town as well; He couldn't possibly be Demon(see his Palmar case). We just won't know if he was a blue or not. TBH that was a poor decision by the AoD, unless he had actually found an Angel and was ready to push him. His last actions were attacking RoL. Apply Occam's Razor(The correct solution is usually the simplest one), ##Vote RoL | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
His last actions were attacking RoL. As in "Mr Wiggles' actions were attacking RoL" | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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Refallen
452 Posts
On January 13 2012 11:10 Zephirdd wrote: Or maybe he had the same logic as me? At least this now confirms syllo as town. MrWiggles was town as well; He couldn't possibly be Demon(see his Palmar case). We just won't know if he was a blue or not. TBH that was a poor decision by the AoD, unless he had actually found an Angel and was ready to push him. His last actions were attacking RoL. Apply Occam's Razor(The correct solution is usually the simplest one), ##Vote RoL No, AoD was almost never targeting syllo to begin with. It would have been much better to banish harbringer and see if he was the AoD or not. And I agree that RoL is the prime suspect for lynch today. Dunno why angels decided to get rid of wiggles though. | ||
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Barbiero
Brazil5259 Posts
On January 13 2012 11:16 Refallen wrote: No, AoD was almost never targeting syllo to begin with. It would have been much better to banish harbringer and see if he was the AoD or not. And I agree that RoL is the prime suspect for lynch today. Dunno why angels decided to get rid of wiggles though. Mb read my previous post? What if there was no AoD kill? Would it be more likely that syllo was the AoD or that he had been shot? Don't you agree that syllo is a player strong enough to be able to look as town as he is while being scum, especially on a double scum game? Doesn't matter though; syllo is town and that's what there is to it. | ||
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Refallen
452 Posts
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Jackal58
United States4264 Posts
On January 13 2012 11:21 Zephirdd wrote: Mb read my previous post? What if there was no AoD kill? Would it be more likely that syllo was the AoD or that he had been shot? Don't you agree that syllo is a player strong enough to be able to look as town as he is while being scum, especially on a double scum game? Doesn't matter though; syllo is town and that's what there is to it. Syllo is not the AoD. That fact (and that is now a fact) does not make him guaranteed town. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
First we will deal with BlazingHand. Let's go over what he has done scummy. I aim to prove that BlazingHand is an Angel The first thing is his Day 1 activity. Then we will move towards his criticisms of my plan and his actions after that. Part I: Day 1 Day 1 for BlazingHand can be characterized by a couple of issues that I think are worth noting, but barring his Day 2 activity wouldn't necessarily consider top candidate. Firstly, he focuses heavily on the set up. Then we look at his interaction with the Palmar. The third thing I am not too sure how to feel about is his overbearing activity. He is absolutely dominating the towns posts, his filter quite frankly is such a ridiculous amount to read it would scare off most people. I know I usually wouldn't bother reading WBG's filter in games because its usually like 8-10 pages within the first couple of days. By the end of day two his filter was 14 pages long, and accomplished an absolutely retarded amount of nothing except making this game insanely annoying to read. So that being said let's get to his set up analysis. Now generally speaking, it is considered a bit scummy to dwell on a set up and post a about it. In this case due to the extremely unusual nature of the game I might be able to forgive that. For point of reference, I will include the posts in the spoiler. + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 15:57 Blazinghand wrote: Sup guys? I'm Blazinghand. :DDDDD A thought from me: Angels have like 1.5 KPs atm, and that drops to 1 (since the acolyte doesn't always get a kill)-- their power goes down with time. Demons have 0 kps but fight us for control of the lynch (among other things), their power goes up with time. The demon team isn't able to kill people, but it's got a lot of ways to manipulate elections-- and these only increase with power as the game goes on. I think the early game threat in terms of scum are angels, and the late game threat in terms of scum are demons, just because they could pretty easily control these elections. The demons seem to have it tougher, but things will get much easier for them as the day goes on. Also, due to the secret vote, vote count analysis isn't available, which makes me feel somewhat at a loss. I think we'll have to hold people accountable to what they say, since we can't hold them accountable to how they vote. Although we have a variety of interesting blue roles at our disposal, our chief focus has to be on scumhunting and succeeding via lynch early while we still have assured control of the vote. So, a question: we should/can totally claim corruption when we get corrupted? This exposes us to death via acolyte, but also lets us see who's corrupted and get an idea of how many votes we actually have doing something. This won't really be an issue for a couple days, though. Another question: is it sensible at all to "try" to get angels or demons first? I haven't played in a multifactional mafia game before, and am looking for some advice here-- or do we just scumhunt and lynch who we find? Another thought: the possibility for masked flips from the Angel of Death really scares me. I don't like the idea of someone dying and us not having any idea who it was. I don't really know what else to say on that subject but I thought I'd bring it up. We will, of course, be killing Angels exclusively via lynch-- our "vig" type role, the Demon Hunter, can only kill townies and angels. Don't forget to breadcrumb everything, blues. Also, let's try not to lurk, and promote healthy discussion like the sick nerd baller town we deserve to be. On January 04 2012 16:02 Blazinghand wrote: I'm guessing we'll just identify scum and kill them. Also, although angels have the KPs, it's possible to kill an angel while eliminating 0 kps or just eliminating their "semi" kp while conserving their masked KP. Demons are a much bigger threat long run with their lynch control. No. This is a terrible idea. If there are strategies for angels and demons that are obvious (like demons using corrupted votes to go after blues or masking an important death) it's so, SO important that you share it so we can figure out how to deal with it. If it can help, share it with the town. Honestly, they already have 3 people per team and already know whatever it is you're gonna share. The idea that we should try to avoid sharing information is exactly the kind of scummy idea that sinks towns. Don't be that guy. step 1) find scum step 2) lynch them step 0 is get everyone to talk so we can get reads. On January 04 2012 16:31 Blazinghand wrote: Yes this seems fairly obvious for a "jailer" type ability What do you think about information sharing? Are you still anti-sharing-ways-to-fight-strategies-and-stuff? Also-- the downside of claiming corruption is the "night actions order" The acolyte can just crap on you before you get cleansed. that's the risk. This is a complicated game, take some time to read the OP before commenting on this sort of thing On January 04 2012 16:57 Blazinghand wrote: This sounds super correct. Once the Angel of Death or Angelic Acolyte is dead, claiming corrupted won't result in instant death since even if the Angelic Acolyte is still alive, at that point it'll be easier to just Slay rather than try to pick up a KP via Stalk. On January 04 2012 16:58 Blazinghand wrote: Why are you quoting him and not me ._. i be all up in in this thread pointing these things out way earlier On January 04 2012 17:56 Blazinghand wrote: Nice dodge-- respond with questions, yes, that looks credible. Look, I haven't thought of anything. But if I did, I'd surely share it with the rest of the town, and I encourage others to do so. Why are you so adamant about supporting a crappy posting policy? If I think of something, I'll share it with people, as should everyone else. I think this is what creates a good town environment. The last post specifically, I have bolded an interesting point. He wants us to share plans, then shits all over me when I do it. Fine whatever, the set up posting was minor we can let that slide. The next part I want to focus on is his other player interactions. Generally he is hostile with most players, while on Day 1 it can be a good way to generate discussion I don't believe that was entirely what he was doing, some of it was straight up bullying which just makes it so townies are less likely to challenge you, and more likely to sheep with you to avoid confrontations. I will include some of the posts in a spoiler once again. [/spoiler] On January 04 2012 18:06 Blazinghand wrote: Ah yes you're right let's figure out how to fight scum without talking about how they think or what they might do, and if we have thoughts about this and need help let's not get help from each other about it. Hey look when I put words in your mouth it sounds bad too! The point i'm trying to make here is that a healthy discussion of what Angel and Demons might use as a strat and what we can do to counter it is very important, especially if you don't immediately know the counter strategy. On January 04 2012 18:09 Blazinghand wrote: IN FACT YOU EVEN RESPOND TO THAT POST RIGHT HERE: Why aren't you telling Refallen off? because you forgot for a moment about your poorly-thought-out rule and acted like a reasonable person. Try to do that more and think about your "well lets never discuss what scum actions might look like in this complicated setup" rule less. On January 05 2012 04:31 Blazinghand wrote: The #1 goal of a town player should be to establish their innocence. Look, regardless of whether "oh bluelightz isn't establishing his innocence" or whatever, just look at that filter. That is an unhelpful dude. I don't have a solid scumread atm, but we've got 3 lurkers and one guy who's posted like 6 one-liners and said nothing. This is fine because probably the lurkers are asleep-- but ideally we have a sweet day1 discussion and get some juices flowing. I will not stand for an inactive crappy town. I will NOT get used to players not establishing their innocence. I will hunt down and kill all the scum whether in doing so I earn YOUR approval or not. Is Mr. Wiggles playing? On January 05 2012 04:34 Blazinghand wrote: If anything, I'm burning bridges. The fact of the matter is, I'm not trying to get town cred by forcing a case off thin air, because doing so is how you lose town cred. My case is solid as hell. The guy was here for 3 hours and made 6 posts saying nothing. This is unacceptable and I will not stand for it. If people do not post day 1, or try to hide, or like make 1 post then dip up out of here, of course we will lynch them. However, it's possible some of the players who haven't posted are still asleep, and it seems Mr. Wiggles may not be playing at all. Solid case indeed chap, you base it off useless posts. Definitely no signs of weakness. On January 05 2012 04:36 Blazinghand wrote: Look if Bluelightz gets off his plane, realizes he's being a tool, and decides to seriously help out, I won't have as much of a case on him any more because he'll be being, well, helpful. It's that simple. It won't be hard for him if he's being town. step 1) be helpful step 2) blazinghand is no longer attacking you And this guy gets up my ass about being a dick to players. On January 05 2012 08:41 Blazinghand wrote: Not to be abrasive or anything, I just don't think there's any reason to pull your punches. Oh cool, because you said not to be abrasive, then its all fine. [/spoiler] This is just to establish the needless aggression and discouraging players. I want to establish a difference. When he is doing it here, it is to discourage people from coming against him. When I was posting abrasively in defense of my plan it served the purpose of attempting to shut down contention fast and efficiently because it was a rush scenario. The difference is his is to shut down objections to himself by less aggressive players, while mine was a tactical decision to help my plan get going on an extremely constricted time basis. Now for how he acted about Palmar. He starts off subtle trying to justify the case, then gets full swing behind it before jumping to an easier lynch in Erandorr/Risk.nuke. I will explain what I mean in the spoiler. On January 06 2012 09:53 Blazinghand wrote: So, our chief reasoning for Palmar being scum is his relative inactivity? Palmar is an aggressive scumhunter D1 whenever he is town, and today he has been largely unaggressive and not scumhunting on par with his usual-- as though he's holding something back. Is this an accurate characterization of the Palmar case? This is him trying to ease into a lynch and play conservatively. He doesn't want to directly attack such a skilled player who could easily out argue him in a confrontation. This is the post that looks the most scummy though in his Palmar interactions On January 07 2012 07:58 Blazinghand wrote: My serious issues with Erandorr STILL STAND. He is hustling us. He is doing it right now. I am geniunely concerned about him. I would be heartily surprised if he were town. Why haven't you posted anything of substance, Erandorr? Yes, you've been away, but you've also been NOT AWAY, and frankly, we're down to the last sleep cycle before the day end during which everyone will get a chance to leave comments. Your actions over the course of the last couple days have done little to convince me of your usefulness. However, I feel that it has come time to weigh in on Palmar v. Wiggles. I'm going to present a concise case summarizing what I would characterize as the feel of these player's play so far this game. I will say who I think is scum. I will present my strongest read. And then I am going to vote. I will begin by opening Palmar's filter. Wiggles has done a reasonable comprehensive job of going after Palmar, but tunnels are dark and cause, well, tunnel vision. I will add in a tunnel here until instead of tunnels we have a big dome area where it's easy for everyone to see what's going on. It's not the best analogy, but you get it. Day 1 begins January 04 2012 15:00 KST. Palmar before Wiggles comes at him bro + Show Spoiler + On January 04 2012 20:33 Palmar wrote: I'm a kite! Meaningless. Nothing much is happening yet, though. About 18 hours and 6 pages later, Harbringer presents a "Palmar is Lurking" case: On January 05 2012 15:05 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: So how would people feel about lynching Palmar or Erandorr if they don't start posting more? Both have posted nothing of worth so far, Palmar was even active elsewhere on the mafia forum today, and both are known for doing very little as scum. Palmar responds with more trolling: On January 05 2012 18:36 Palmar wrote: I claimed kite, that's pretty pro-town? 30 minutes later, he makes his first post that isn't an obvious troll: On January 05 2012 19:02 Palmar wrote: As a public service I'm going to list up some stupid stuff going on in the thread: Anyone talking about demon or angel strategy either is one, or is dumb. It's completely irrelevant to the goal at hand. The discussion about whether we should be lynching demons or angels is even dumber. We're going to lynch scum, I don't care what kind of scum, and thinking we can somehow figure out what type of scum multiple players are is just... derp. Bringing this up almost looks like testing the waters/reducing the threat level of one faction (your own). The discussion about how and when a seer should claim is also dumb. He doesn't need to claim if he doesn't suck. Any good Cop can just make a case once he has a guilty, or make a case to save an innocent, and push it. Knowing the player is scum makes writing the case so much easier. @Syllogism: You seem to be very much against lynching Bluelightz, do you want to explain to me why? @Cwave: Dirkzor's point is essentially correct, however, the fact that he felt the need to correct people by specifically demonstrating demons are no less threatening than angels, instead of just telling everyone to shut up and talk about something productive is however kinda scummy. The fact he's talking about the night cycle doesn't really say a lot. Talking about this post: Palmar makes a couple obvious observations about scum and claims. His statements are correct and I agree with them. However, the person he's addressing with the "seer claiming is dumb" statement is Harbringer, whose previous post was like 13 hours earlier: + Show Spoiler + On January 05 2012 03:55 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Some things to think about: If the town seer claims after finding a single angel we have a 2/3 chance of reducing their kp, 2/3 chance of making it much safer to claim corruption, and a 100% chance of getting a lot of good information after the angel flips. There are no abilities in the game which make the reads come back incorrect. The angels also DO NOT have a roleblocking ability, so they then have to decide if they want to target the seer and risk missing a kp if the seer is sent to purgatory or leave him be. Obviously this becomes much riskier if we have already lost our channeler. I'd be interested to hear if other people think having the seer claim after their first angel find is a good idea as well. The sage on the other hand probably shouldn't claim unless he has 2 demons identified. If he claims with only one identified, 0% chance of reducing kp or reducing the corruption ability, demons have a roleblock ability, angels can kill the sage to make demons a larger threat to town thereby reducing focus on them. Still gain information obviously, but overall seems like a much weaker play than the seer claiming after finding an angel. The demon hunter is not only useful against demons. His attacks kill anything that isn't an angel....meaning if his target lives and wasn't sent to purgatory, he has successfully identified an angel. However, since he poses a significant threat to both angels and demons, I don't really see much of a reason for the demon hunter to ever claim, except perhaps to avoid a lynch if he fucks up and appears scummy. So please don't do that. On Bluelightz: I will go check out his filter in the newbie game to see what all the fuss is about. And had already been shot down by several people. Palmar here is contributing on the surface, but really was just repeating what had already been said. He asks a couple questions, but it's not real pressure. Overall, this post isn't BAD. In the context of several scumhunting and pressure actions on d1 this would be a normal Palmar post, actually. He WOULD slap down a guy who's already been slapped down. Normally he'd call the guy out by name, but slapping a guy down is exactly what Palmar would do. Shortly thereafter, Syllogism says that Palmar is normally more active d1, and therefore is likely scum out of all the lurkers. Dirkzor says Palmar is stifling discussion. Palmar's retort: On January 05 2012 20:10 Palmar wrote: No, I want to shut people up who are talking about trivial stuff that cannot possibly lead us to finding scum, thus simply cluttering the thread with useless information. Creating noise over true evidence is not helping. But since you are around, please tell me, who would you lynch, right now? I will provide the same answer to you in turn. At this point, he enters the discussion actively. On January 05 2012 20:21 Palmar wrote: You see, I don't disagree with the notion that lynching Bluelightz is bad, I'm just not sure how well I like your reasons for it. I actually think it's unlikely he's scum, not based on the amount he posted, but rather based on what he has posted. I didn't actually want to post yesterday, the time I had to play mafia I spent finishing up resistance, decided to rather just read the thread this morning. It's interesting that you seem to want to paint the picture that I'm always active and useful in the first part of day 1, when you know from experience that I do often ignore the initial discussion. Do you have a specific reason for this? between risk.nuke and Grackaroni, I'd much rather have a look at Grack, since I'm actually willing to wait for risk's initial contribution. I would actually have no problem with lynching people like RoL or Jackal day 1. Hedging on BL. Notes that he can't really pick risk cause risk hasn't posted. Says he wouldn't mind lynching Jack or RoL for being experienced lurkers. No commitments or analysis. On January 05 2012 20:24 Palmar wrote: It's not the amount, but the content that I have a problem with. What I don't like is people discussing trivial things which anyone can take any side on, no matter their alignment. An example on this would be a discussion on how blue roles should act in a normal game, since that simply is just people giving their opinion on something that has no relevance to the game at hand. This is a fair statement. In the context of Palmar scumhunting and providing pressure, this statement wouldn't ring any bells. On January 05 2012 20:59 Palmar wrote: Reading steamship should also have been a perfect example of a game where I don't post or simply troll during the opening hours to you. I find it very weird that you somehow missed that, despite remembering the game when you need to use it to point out to me that there is a possibility we're both town. You know I don't metagame like that. If I don't post in a game it's simply because I don't want to post, I don't turn off messaging clients or hide from the forum when I don't want to post in a game. It's my problem I'm playing multiple games, so I should be the one at disadvantage from that. I want to see how you're thinking this game. Can you read Dirkzor's filter and tell me what you think about it? You don't need to conclude an alignment, you simply need to tell me what you think. A meta-defense. Meh. No comittments or analysis, asks for syllo's read. On January 05 2012 21:28 Palmar wrote: I was kinda expecting you to ask me something to continue the conversation. I'll just assume you did. Oh, I'm glad you asked syllogism. Wiggles seems to do this every game, regardless of his alignment, post thoughts on how the game should be played out. However, I don't get the same bad feeling about his posts this time around as I did in mini mafia x, if this is his new scum late entrance, it has much more to it than last time I saw him opening a game as scum. I'm actually leaning town on wiggles this game, his follow-up posts were more useful than what I'd believe scum wiggles would do, compared to what I've come to know him doing as scum. I think he should be one of the last people we lynch today. I agree with removing Dirkzor off the board as a lynch candidate, even if his opening post was kinda weird, his casual pointing out things like "that's an easy way to lurk", seems like a townie, rather than scum. What do you think about Blazinghand? So, there are two ways you can read this: 1) Palmar is town and trying to start conversations. 2) Palmar is scum and picked a topic he'd feel comfortable talking about by uh, literally asking himself a question. This is his first real analysis-- within a few hours of him becoming active. Labeling a couple dudes as town is pretty Palmar-town-ey to do. I've seen him try to scumhunt by confirming townies and process of elimination. I don't know why he's asking about me though; clearly the answer to that question is "Blazinghand is a sexy beast, I stay up late dreaming about him. <3" So, let's talk about this for a moment. I think Palmar is actually providing some real pressure on Bluelightz here. This is about 20 hours after Grack first fingered Bluelightz and I jumped on him like a dog on an ass-flavored biscuit. He does this as Bluelightz posts his first of many "hey guys I'm gonna use 20 lines to tell you I have no scumreads" posts. This looks normal to me. I'd ask Bluelightz this in the same situation. Here's where we get to the contentious part of the issue: Bluelightz responds: On January 05 2012 21:59 Bluelightz wrote: At this point, I would wait if xsk starts posting, risk.nuke too. But if they don't i'm all ears for lynching them I would lynch RoL right now because he hasn't posted anything when I searched for RoL post's in the thread I haven't found any post's by him A typical bad response from either a newbie town or a newbie scum. What would you do in this situation? He's hedging, but nominally answers your questions, but provides a reason that sounds like an excuse. He's very hesitant. I know what I would do. I'd pressure him more. I'd ask him "why not X player, why not Y player" and so on. I'd say "Is that your only reason?" and "you really believe in lynch all lurkers?" and "of the active players, who is the scummiest?" and "why so uncertain?" I'd berate him HARD for such a hedging response. I'd be all over him. I think most people would. Now, maybe Palmar thought this was an acceptable response, right? No, Palmar thought this was a crappy response. So Palmar decided to continue to talk to BL. On January 05 2012 22:24 Palmar wrote: So consider this scenario. You are now a day-vigilante, if you kill a townie, you will lose the game for town immediately, so you have to shoot scum, everything is on the line. You HAVE to hit scum with the information you have now. Would you shoot RoL? This question asks: "Are you sure?" And it does it in a roundabout, generally crappy way. This is not a good way to up the ante on an opponent. Not at all. The question isn't "can Palmar provide some sort of justification for this" because I guarantee you 100% he CAN. He's Palmar, he can justify anything. The question is, "would a town player use this as a follow-up to Bluelight's hedging?" I don't think so. I feel like this is a bad way to increase pressure. I feel like it's weird. It doesn't seem like something you'd do if you really wanted to lay on the hurt. On the other hand, I'm not sure why scum Palmar would do this either. This is just... well, dumb. Palmar has some interaction with Syllogism calling him dumb again, and we get this: On January 06 2012 00:55 Palmar wrote: Alright, so at gunpoint, your highest possibility of flipping scum is RoL, based on the fact that he has not posted. That's very... interesting. You have little enough faith in your actual reads that you would risk a game to kill off someone who you have nothing to determine his alignment on. This is pretty indirect and noncommittal for an FoS, which is basically what it is. On January 06 2012 01:12 Palmar wrote: Well, I'm not sure what I should be asking you, apparently you're happy with fencesitting through the lynch, throwing your vote randomly against some lurker. Your entire scumhunting process is "This guy has not posted, so he must be scum". And I have a problem with that. Don't let me keep you up, there's still another day. You better come up with something better tomorrow, even if it's only a measurement of your neck. There's the Palmar we know :3 OK SO Right here I'm gonna stop and go through Wiggles' filter up to this point, because right after this he accuses Palmar. I'm doing this because we should know what Wiggles was up to before he comes out swinging. Wiggles before he comes at Palmar + Show Spoiler + So wiggles is silent at first, then he comes out swinging with a big post. I'm gonna break it down for y'all right here. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hey guys, I was sick last night, so I didn't bother posting. I took some Dristan and went to bed and feel better now, though, so let's get started. First thing's first, I want to address a couple of posts that I saw as non-optimal play, and something we should be aware of. Just so you know, you should never believe an investigative claim because someone bread-crumbed it. There's no reason to believe it because of bread-crumbs, because there's no proof that they actually did what they bread-crumbed. Breadcrumbs are only useful when a player flips, because you know what role they actually are, and then you know that any breadcrumbs are likely to be sound. If you want a recent example of breadcrumbs killing the town, go read Mini Mafia X, where Wherebugsgo wrote jk three times in a post then claimed jailkeeper, and town believed him. The only person I think can legitimately breadcrumb and use that to support their claim in this game is the demonhunter, and only if they end up killing a complete innocent, or else it could be the acolyte. Also keep in mind that crumbs should be made before the corresponding day-post. Basic Breadcrumb info. Not a perfectly accurate representation of WBG's claim, which was substantially more nuanced than that, and was actually somewhat transparent given what he claimed his night actions were, but yeah breadcrumbs don't support claims they cover flips. This is a true statement and is something that needed to be cleared up. Contrast Palmar's post which says the same thing, but 12 hours later. This basic info is a null read as opposed to a "wtf" read because it needed to be said. After it's been said, it's been said. On January 05 2012 07:05 Mr. Wiggles wrote: ] This is bad. Killing a useless townie is almost never worth it. A useless townie is still a townie, and they still provide us with a vote and count towards our win condition. It's always better to lynch scum, not lynch someone because he could be scum but it doesn't matter anyways because if he's town he's useless. In fact, I was leaning town on you at the beginning of the game, but now I think I'm going to have to re-evaluate that somewhat after your recent "case" on Bluelightz. Being bad doesn't make someone scum, so it seems weird that you'd try to attack him for being bad. There's been a lot of talk in the thread so far (though granted, most of it is based on mechanics), so who do you think is scummy? You don't make a case for why bluelightz is scum, just for why he hasn't done anything productive yet. Here Wiggles goes after me. I think his case is shitty, not because any fact he says is untrue, but because his conclusions don't match his assumptions. Or he just didn't read my posts. I call him out for this later, and will address this in more detail when we reach it in his filter. The rest of what Wiggles say is obvious and semi-obvious but correct strategy info that hasn't been covered yet. No read. So overall I don't think this post says anything about Wiggles other than that he's writing stuff. So, moving on from his first post: On January 05 2012 07:29 Mr. Wiggles wrote: What I was talking about there, was this portion of the quoted post: "it might be good to kill him just because even if he is town he could be useless." Living useless townies are better than dead useless townies, especially when we mislynch them. When I read that, I thought you were implying that you would be fine lynching him, even if he flipped town, because he's useless. That also implies you aren't sure of your read, or that you're scummy, because it's covering for the potentiality that he flips town and tries to defend against it preemptively. Feel free to keep the pressure on him, though, and force him to contribute. I'm not saying unvote him, I just wanted to make a point that lynching greens because they're useless isn't generally beneficial for town. The same thing ties in with voting for inactives because they're inactive, especially if you read them as green, which is part of the discussion on Lynch all Lurkers. Wiggles and I are arguing about my case vs BL. Here he makes some dumb arguments based on not understanding me. No read. On January 05 2012 07:42 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Greens can be anti-town, but if you read them as green, you don't lynch them. If they're non-contributing, then you pressure them to contribute, like you're trying to do by voting Bluelightz. Then they should be forced to do something, and give you information from which to get a better read. We're in agreement about that. However, you have to do this with multiple players, because you still have to separate the greens from whatever scum might be hiding among them. In your case, you didn't sound like you really thought that he was scum, just that he was not contributing. That might be what's throwing me off about you, as in my experience, if someone wants to pressure someone to contribute, they just vote them, and ask them to contribute, not make a case and call them maybe scum maybe town and then say we should kill them either way. I'll help pressure, but I'm not going to vote him now, as he claims he went to bed two hours ago. If he's not back and posting by tonight, I'll vote him, until he gives us something. More Mr. Wiggles being dumb. I think he just misreads all my posts. He makes a commitment here though, which is something that Palmar didn't. So that's all the posts Mr. Wiggles made before his accusation against Palmar. That's where the gamestate was when Wiggles decided it was time to come at Palmar. We have a few questions to formulate based on this: Does Palmar seem scummy to you? How about Wiggles? The other question to formulate: Is Wiggles' case legitimate? Let's take a look! Mr. Wiggles' Opening Statement + Show Spoiler + On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hi guys. First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured. First off, this is a bunch of BS. Bluelightz is playing like dick and at that moment had contributed nothing of value. That's not super relevant to the actual accusation though. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086 Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Alright, Wiggles. Let's see what you got. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: For example, take this post: It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching "people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Mr. Wiggles finds this more non-committal and hedging than I did. This is indeed one of many unhelpful posts by Palmar. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical. So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum. So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch. ##Vote: Palmar So Mr. Wiggles notes the same thing I do about Palmar's weirdness with Bluelightz. He also thinks the follow-up is bad. From a "Wiggles-as-town" perspective, there's two possibilities here: 1) Palmar got an accurate read of town from BL's wishiwashiness, or 2) Palmar is scum trying to look town. This is a fairly well-thought-out case, and somewhat coincides with my own observations. However, before I pass judgement, I'm gonna take a look and Palmar's initial response to this case. Palmar's Defense + Show Spoiler + Palmar's defense comes in two parts: Meta and his interaction with Bluelightz. On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote: So, Wiggles is wrong, but he's also wrong in a way that makes him scum. He's being intentionally and maliciously thick. Remember, despite the picture Wiggles wants to paint, I've posted a ton in the thread already. Wiggles is not a bad player, so he knows that none of the things he posted have anything to do with my alignment. What we need to look at is how and why he is wrong. This is loooong. But please read it very carefully, some of the most important bits are after the break. Look at this. For someone who has played with me extensively in the past, he should know by now that I hate the "create plans" and "discuss if we want to lynch lurkers" phase of the game, so most of the time I ignore it and really start posting once I think there's something to discuss. In addition, aside from XLIV where I tunneled as part of a strategy (I tunneled just to see how town would respond), Please show me an example of a game where I tunneled on day one. I dare you to go and find a proper tunnel from me on day one that isn't XLIV. I have a feeling you're not going to be able to. I usually just read the thread, talk to people, and then at some point I make a decision. Usually with less than 24 hours to go. Once again, before you think about what Wiggles is doing here, remember that this guy actually knows exactly how I play, yet he's trying to make it look like something else. Of course the post has no solid reads, it's a conversation with syllogism. Something I've found incredibly useful to determine the alignment of people I know very well (mostly sandro and syllo). In addition, English may not be my first language, but did anyone actually read the last sentence the way wiggles did? Cause it sure as hell meant I'm willing to lynch those two, not just people like them. Like, did anyone seriously read this sentence, and get out of it that I'm not fine with lynching Jackal and RoL? Maybe I'm completely off here, but this to me is stretching the point seriously. What I was trying to point out is that sometimes people make an argument for not lynching lurking veterans on day one, and I was saying that I'd have no problem lynching them, ie: lynching Jackal or RoL. Yes, I want to see where syllo stands. Quibbling and argument. The big thing to note here is that neither of these players have provided links to games that Palmar is in. I don't like Meta, and I don't know these guys well, so I can't really comment on this. I'll have to go read the other games to determine if this fits in Palmar's meta, and I don't even know if Palmar has a consistent meta so i'll have to read even MORE games if I want to find that out. If someone could hook me up with some links to Palmar's filters in other games that would be, well, nice. If not I guess I'll have to go look myself ;_; The second part is the interesting part: On January 06 2012 19:30 Palmar wrote: The complete misrepresentation (thanks Ver) of what happened between me and Bluelightz is the most telling thing from Wiggles in the game. This is what it comes down to. First off, Wiggles accuses me of changing my mind. That's dumb in the first place, because well... that's how you play this game. (notice, with this post I'm changing my mind on Wiggles). The best part is that Wiggles is actually not reading the thread, which is why his case is so heavily founded on attempting to create some meta on how I'm supposed to play on day 1, and trying to prove I'm not fitting it. I'll show you an example of Wiggles not reading the thread: Wiggles is speculating about why I decided to attack Bluelightz But there is no need to speculate, I said exactly what the deal was. I asked Bluelightz a simple question (who would you lynch?) and he failed to produce an answer other than "a lurker". After which I pressured him to answer using increasingly harsh methods. Here's more: This is awesome, when you want to create a huge-ass case as scum, at least have the decency to read the posts of the person you're accusing, that way someone might buy it. (clickable) On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? I want to establish this, I did ask Bluelightz who he wanted to lynch, then I asked him again, to get him to clarify a target, after he failed again I created a scenario to force him to actually give me an answer. Remember, the scenario, is essentially just "who do you think has the highest chance of flipping scum right now?", which should be exactly the same question as "who would you lynch?". This is important because for some reason Wiggles is attempting to make it look like a bad thing people are saying who they would lynch? I have no idea how that makes sense. And what has the fact that other people answered the question got to do with me? I mean, let's ignore for a moment the fact that people telling us who they think are scum is usually a good idea for town, and just focus on the fact that apparently I am scummy for something other people did. That's just plain wrong. You can never deduce anything about anyone's alignment from other people's actions. Pressure votes are useless, that's dumb as shit Wiggles. I have a feeling Bluelightz is scum, but until I actually have time to create a case to prove it, the vote doesn't actually do anything because it's not backed up with anything. Actually, I invite anyone in this thread to read the entire exchange, I'll provide a link: Clicky! And see if they get the same read on this as Wiggles. He accuses me of not attacking bad posts, when I created the entire scenario just to drag up an answer from Bluelightz, he accuses me of not pressuring.... well, read the next 2 pages, and see what conclusion you come to. No you are, because you cannot possibly be this bad. ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles Palmar points out some SERIOUS flaws in Wiggles' case. However, he still has some serious issues going on-- even though Palmar didn't pull the dayvig situation straight out of his ass, he still used it instead of better pressure moves. His issue here wasn't really lack of pressure, it was lack of REAL pressure, or helpful pressure. ._. So what do you think of all this, Blazinghand? I think Wiggles, in his aggression, overlooked a more legitimate way to take this argument to Palmar. Why DID Palmar do all that dayvig stuff when he could have just kept on pressing? The world may never know. Clearly Palmar was unhelpful and repetitive leading up to Wiggles' accusation. I'd consider that a serious problem. I think Wiggles' case is shitty, but not because Palmar isn't scummy. Wiggles just made some huge mistakes in presenting his case. I have no reason whatosever to believe Wiggles is town based on the way he put together his case and the fact that he has failed to contribute in a meaningful fashion besides erecting a 5-lane tollbooth-assisted 2-way tunnel at Palmar. All that being said, I think there's something up with Palmar. I don't know why he's acting so weird, and it gives me the heebie jeebies. Palmar comes off as scummy. I'm not taking into account his contributions after the Wiggles case, nor am I taking into account Wiggles' contributions after the initial response to Palmar's defense-- if Palmar is scum, it should be clear from his actions before Wiggles began putting together his tunnel. Also, most of that stuff has happened WHILE I was writing this post. It's kind of a long post. I don't like his read on risk.nuke; I don't like the FASHION in which he pressure Bluelightz-- that is to say, ineffectively, noncommittally, and generally unhelpfully; and I don't like the defense of said pressure. The one thing I'll say about his actions post-Wiggles-Accusation (besides his initial defense) since there's a lot of WIFOM rolling around based on whether or not he'll be more aggressive, etc-- is that I don't understand why he changed his vote to Erandorr. I really don't. And that's the reason I'm voting Palmar instead of Erandorr at the moment. I GET IT that Erandorr looks scummy. *I* think he looks scummy. But Palmar himself admits that given that he's town, he's horribly surprised that Wiggles would tunnel him like this. He even said "There's no way you're this bad" or something along those lines. It makes no sense. None at all. The fact that it came right after my comprehensive case on Erandorr doesn't mean anything either-- maybe he was legitimately convinced, but he could have been looking for another wagon to hop on. So why the sudden change, Palmar? Have you no explanation for me? You were so sure of Mr. Wiggles! *shakes head* ##Vote Palmar He basically does an entire analysis using wiggles posts which makes him hold zero accountability. On top of this he uses it to justify a vote he has been easing himself into. If you read the filter there is some more posts about palmar, but I feel this adequately sums it up. He hesitates to engage Palmar, then does it vicariously through wiggles arguments. When Palmar flips he could look good for this if it wasn't a two faction game. This is the reasoning I use to determine he must be an Angel. The part that makes him scummy is his absolutely shameless tunneling of me for 5 straight days, then compromising on a different mislynch. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
Day 2; criticisms To preface, he barely posts anything without attacking me. His posts make no sense, and he clearly doesn't understand the game set up and the principles I use to suggest my plan. That's fine, but what's most important is he only really focuses on how it benefits the demons. Now when I thought up this plan it I considered its drawbacks and the way I saw it benfitting was town > angels >> demons. In my opinion it gave us an edge, while harming the Angels, and truly fucking Demons. But the huge majority of BH's posts only look at Demon's advantages, which quite frankly didn't make sense. I will elaborate this simply. The demons can't corrupt the blues, because the Angels could be aiming there anyway on top of dealing with the multiple purgatories focused within there. For every townie group player they corrupt they create another detective that searches them out, not Angels. At any point if the Demons get an advantage by corruptions the corrupt players simply claim and get killed by DH/Angels. Because of this, the Angels have to focus their hiding KP into the blues who we already know. This causes them not to hide results which benefits us information wise. The stalker has to hunt down the corrupted townies. The longer the game draws out the more it benefits us as the Angels are forced to kill into the town circle that protects them from being known to keep the Demons from holding a majority vote. All we really lose from this was blue anonymity in exchange for confirmed townies, and essentially boosting Angel KP assuming they want to risk shooting into a Jailor's heaven. Essentially, I don't see a winning scenario for the Demons with my plan, while the Angels would have to walk the tightest rope and hope for utter town incompetence to win. So moving forward, he not only continues to bring up my plan and how antitown it is and illogically dismissing my arguments which just causes chaos as me and him argue over the same points again and again until my plan is effectively dead. He shuts it down successfully because I don't have the time to argue all day, yet goes a step further and tries to implicate me as scum for it claiming it does things I established it doesn't do. On January 10 2012 06:46 Blazinghand wrote: So, here's RoL. ok so he lurked a bit guys he's still lurking just hold on a sec ok guys TOMORROW, TOMORROW he will sto the lurk. ._. So you know what RoL I don't like that you lurked for all of D1. That being said, that alone will not implicate you for anything. I think it's worth noting here that uh... you didn't actually vote Erandorr. woo-hoo. This during the last-minute scramble: At last we come to the first real post. First, you claim to have voted Erandorr when you have not at all. A simple mistake, but not a good start. He makes some reasonable points but I consider this a somewhat unsupported "vote" and yet still no vote. ._. OK we're still in honest mistake territory, but as you can see RoL's D1 play was somewhat underwhelming. Does this paint him as scummy to me? Sort of. Maybe he WAS too busy to stop by and kept on telling us that he was catching up. Maybe he DID send a bunch of bad messages to zbot. Maybe he really didn't understand the voting situation. Maybe all he's been doing is analyzing the setup. I'll buy that, MAYBE, if he's got something good to say. So Mr. RoL what you got? Well although his suggestion was ultimately not implemented, since it's the only thing he's really talked about, that's what I'm gonna look at. ಠ_ಠ Ok, I get that the concealed lynch / concealed kills thing is a problem. I get that. I get that as the game goes on and more people die, things will get harder for the town. I also get that a concealed lynch destroys a huge amount of information. The DT can't breadcrumb his findings if he gets conceal-shot by the AoD, etc. However, this just means we need to be careful about roleclaims and be effective during our early days when we haven't had more doubt introduced into our reads by flipless deaths. Actually this looks respectably bad for the angels. I'm not sure I buy the "demons will always jail the blues" line but I can get how the Angels will try to kill off corrupted towns instead of blues with their Acolyte, maybe. But there are a lot of nights where there isn't a corrupted townie around! And on those nights the Angels get plenty of KP. I also don't like the idea of trading out our blue roles for a "confirmed voting block". Our blues will be largely unable to act due to roleblocks, getting shot, and roleblocking themselves rather than demons. We're giving up most of our blue power for something like this. The last thing is I'm not really sure how this makes things worse for the demons. They're still gonna be doing the same thing, which is corrupting people and biding their time. In fact, given that it will be harder for Angels to kill corrupted towns, as RoL NOTES, THIS MAKES THE DEMONS STRONGER. The corrupted situation will get out of hand and our demon DT will be roleblocked plenty of times, and eventually, even if we kill off an angel or two this is bad news for town. Overall this looks like it will increase the rate at which angels will kill blue roles, and will buy the demons more time to win. Our Demon Hunter seems to be on the ball. He shot Palmar (I think; maybe it was the acolyte). I'm not particuarly interested in giving the scum teams any advantages here. I think that mass roleclaim is dumb and will hurt the town, and I think RoL is scum trying to get us to do something dumb. I think this plan is basically a pro-demon plan. Others agree with me. Let's examine RoL's defense of his plan. Bluelightz makes a dumb objection and gets shot down. For all the time spent "reading the thread" and "catching up" RoL doesn't seem to have, um, read the thread. It's great that he accuses someone of misreading while misreading ;_; Some people being dumb about the acolyte. Which posts are he talking about? certainly not this one: + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 00:37 Tyrran wrote: What makes you think that angels will want to target the blues ? They are pretty much immune to blues, appart from the seer which will be desintegrated by the Angel of Death if he ever claim ( or i guess you could banish him, but then he would be pretty useless). So angel will just randomly shoot into townies, who knows, they migth even get a lucky shot on a demon, they migth also kill townies with dark power if they are not banished. Secondly you suppose that Demons are going to want to use their banish defensively. If they want to do this, then Demons will just banish the Demon Hunter ( which will NEVER EVER be targeted by angels, because he basically works for them). If they have corrupted someone, they can also banish the sage, and just enjoy they extra vote ! They are not going to banish someone in order to 'protect' him. Your plan gives HUGE information to both scum faction, and town actually gains very little from it. I dont like it. I think it favors Demons way too much ( because they can protect themself way more easely using their power knowing who the blues are), it also helps angels a bit ( they can kill the seer, they do not risk killing the demon hunter by mistake). But town is definitively the big loser in your plan. Now tyrran, he is not my boy, and he's played like dick this game, but the man has a point. Whether he's an Angel or Demon that doesn't like this plan, or a town player who's figured out that it's like totes anti-town, he laid out legitimate arguments and RoL just ignored them. These aren't misunderstandings of the acolyte's powers-- this is legitimate criticism. So a couple clarifications here, but basically RoL is willing to give up the Blue roles in return for some confirmed voting power. The idea that fake claim is the problem here is, well, a problem. Blues just shouldn't claim ._. He makes some good points as to why this is bad for angels, but it continues to look like this plan just helps demon. And if the scum decide to jetisson one likely-to-be-killed scum player? ._. We also lose the anonymity withing the blues that your plan relies on to be safe. The issue here is that this helps the demons find the blue that threatens them, the demon hunter, while upping the ante on the angels. It's a good for demons, bad for angels sort of thing. ._. or they could just corrupt towns and be substantially better off. this is a fair point. town aligned players should not lie. we should be able to analyze without using this dumb roleclaim strat. Remember that this point RoL doesn't know Palmar is gonna get shot and flip scum, even though Palmar is likely D2 lynch-- he would have been a fine sacrifice for the demon/angel team, since he's dead anyways, to force claims. ._. Lastly, as the tide turns against him: Zeph knows what's up. RoL doesn't actually leave, then proceeds to bail afterwards, saying nothing and disappearing into the mist whence he came. RoL has made no contributions and pushed a pro-scum plan. He even got a couple of morons to claim vt ._. He's lurking, and was hustling us pretty hard D1. I think he's a great D2 lynch. He's never been helpful and he has actively tried to hurt us. ##Vote: RebirthOfLeGenD This is the post I am referring to here. You can read the whole exchange after this post. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 I believe I get back on page 56 and begin arguing with him, but by that point time is against me and he effectively shut down my plan. On day two, I am not attempting to defend my plan for the sake of implementation but more because he's using at as a basis to call me scum, which is flawed in so many ways. On January 10 2012 08:05 Blazinghand wrote: Like, a summary of the things RoL has done this game: 1) lurk for most of d1 2) try to jump on the erandorr wagon and fail 3) push his bad plan I don't see how he's town The biggest thing though is his constant misrepresentation of things that I said and ignoring shit. 1. I explained this, I was finishing up responsibility in a lylo scenario where we won as town. 2. I explained my logic. If you have a problem with it then attack the logic, don't blanket misrepresent my post. On January 08 2012 09:44 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: I did and I cast my vote for Erandorr through the PM thing. Here is my reasoning. Switching from target A to target B is highly unlikely to ever hit a scum barring a DT check (This is more true in town/scum no third faction games, but still holds true here) no second bandwagon should gain momentum if its scum because the scum wouldn't let it happen. That being said, since my other post only about 6-7 pages have happened in game iirc and somehow risk.nuke attained a near majority which is insane. There is no way you are going to hit scum with that kind of rapid vote switch and in fact, that somewhat incriminates Erandorr because why else would a vote switch happen so rapidly? I read some of Risk's posts, admittedly not all, but he didn't seem too bad from my point of view, I don't know what the hell palmar is getting at. But I only inferred that from his posts on pages 34-36ish since I know we are nearing the deadline. Lastly, I read Blazinghand's analysis of Erandorr which seemed good, in the sense that I agree that Erandorr comes off as a disconcerned scum on D1. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=37#723 So I am keeping my vote on Erandorr, anyone on the risk.nuke lynch is suspect for jumping ship so hard, if erandorr flips scum then Palmar deserves a hard look. I also have a plan I have been considering, I plan on enlightening you all during the night phase assuming I can flesh out all the weird possibilities in this set up. 3. My plan isn't bad. When we are discussing the merits and everything don't blanket call me scum for your inability to read. It's just more examples of complete misrepresentation of the facts. On January 10 2012 09:07 Blazinghand wrote: Are you serious? RoL literally lurked all day d1 and then posted the shittiest of all possible plans "herp derp let's mass roleclaim" then disappared again. Link me to your case on risk.nuke and I will consider it, do my own analysis, and offer a read, but do you REALLY THINK ROL'S PLAY HAS BEEN PRO TOWN??? Further misrepresentation. I was gone for like 8 hours between my plans initial posting, me sleeping, posting a bit from work, then getting home and defending it more. I have shit to do and he continues professing bullshit. The thing is, when you have 20% of all the god damn posts people might begin to believe you after a while. On January 10 2012 09:27 Blazinghand wrote: The fact of the matter is, the case on Erandorr was sound, and he got lynched because he played like scum. I think there are 9 players who agree with me on that. Furthermore, saying "well Erandorr was lurking too" isn't the point. The main point of my post isn't RoL's lurking. It's what he's posted and what he hasn't posted. Things RoL has posted: a massive, terrible plan that took a lot of time to write up and is anti-town. Things RoL hasn't posted: anything useful. This isn't a case of a guy lurking. This is a case of a guy lurking, then putting a lot of effort into something that would sink the town. Are you really saying "RoL needs to do more this cycle" when he has actively suggested possibly the worst plan of all time? No, I think RoL has done just what he's wanted to. see for yourself my actual case on RoL, since you seem to think i'm claiming we should lynch him due to inactivity: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=55#1081 He keeps up dominating posting and shutting down contention without explaining himself. The big thing here is he doesn't look for ANYONE except me. On January 13 2012 03:38 Blazinghand wrote: >no you're an idiot >um what >I'm not right all of the time, see E-dawg >I'm gonna push RoL because he's scum. The fact that you're blind to the truth doesn't mean i'm tunneling >no u LayAbout points it out and he continues aggressively dismissing players. Yet at the end of the day what happens? He is so sure I am scum but because I know how to defend myself without spamming 14 pages into a game he won't get a lynch on me, then just jumps over to risk.nuke to kill another townie. On January 11 2012 23:47 ZBot wrote: End of Day 2 Lynched: risk.nuke (9): Current votes: Tyrran (2): HarbingerOfDoom, Dirkzor RebirthOfLeGenD (1): Cwave (0): Dirkzor (0): The second day in some ways felt better than the first. The extreme weather that battered the area the day before was not present, in its place was an eerie calm that made the survivors strangely nervous. Many took the time to search for whatever food and clothing they could find, and stashed them in secret hoards. The conversations between the living were carried out with suspicion, no one could trust anyone else. By midday, the air had become unbearably hot. The sun seemed larger and oddly red in the sky. The heat of its rays was intense on the skin. A few would collapse for moments at a time in exhaustion, but no one would find any relief. Those who were religous cursed their gods for allowing them to suffer such a fate. But their will was not broken. The town's resolve to identify and eliminate the inhuman invaders in their midst continued to be strong. Survival. Victory. Revenge. Whatever the reason, those that remained continued the fight of their lives. As each individual formed their own opinions, the throne continued to glow and hum. As soon as their innermost thoughts came to an invisible consensus, a figure was abruptly jerked towards the throne and spire. Again, beams of light from the whirling wheels began to focus upon the condemned. In no time, a scream of pain pierced the air as risk.nuke's body exploded into cloud of pink mist. risk.nuke, the Town Vanilla was lynched Day 2! It is now Night 2. The night will end 2012-01-13 10:00:50. (That's approximately 1 day, 10:13:00 from now.) It just doesn't make sense as a townie. You think I am scum 100%, so completely certain yet you abandon your guns after tunneling me for 5 straight actual days in place of an easy mislynch? I don't get it, no one does. Sure you thought he was mildly suspicious but you can't very well say "Sure I think hes town, but I can't get you all to kill RoL so I'm switching over" The fact is your actions don't line up with your words and you spam the shit out of the game to get your way. I conclude that after all this crap you must be an Angel. I have shit to do and am getting yelled at, when I get up tomorrow we can throw down more, I needed to cut this case short. I also have a few more things I need to write tomorrow but we can get to that later. Anyway, ##Vote BlazingHand | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
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Refallen
452 Posts
That said, what are your thoughts on the other players? Right now, both you and blazhinghand are kind of tunneling each other, and it'll be nice to hear both of your thoughts on other players. | ||
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HarbingerOfDoom
United States508 Posts
I snipped the example posts and the intro part, as they were not necessary to show that his case is simply reused material. If you want to see the whole thing along with my response to it, click: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603¤tpage=71#1414 On January 12 2012 23:20 Tyrran wrote: -snipped intro- HoD and Jackal have done nothing but tunnelling this game. HoD on me, Jackal on Palmar then Dirzkor. Not only that, but they had NO INTEREST at all about the player that was getting lyched. Here are some example : -snipped examples- + Show Spoiler + On January 08 2012 20:31 syllogism wrote: Harbingerofdoom's refusal to vote for Risk seems quite bad as well. He is still ignoring risk and not really explaining why. On January 09 2012 04:57 layabout wrote: Well.. i made a slight error here (RoL had said he would vote for erandor here but he never voted) Erandor had four votes when HoD voted: Grackaroni, Blazinghand, Tyrran and Cwave Risk.nuke had 6 votes:syllogism, Refallen, Dirkzor, Zephirdd, layabout, Erandorr, @HoD your primary reasoning was to that to avoid a no-lynch you would vote for Erandorr because you were "fine with lynching him" in light of all of the pressure of risk.nuke why didn't you comment on it? if you wanted to avoid the no-lynch why did you vote Erandorr rather than voting for risk, who had the most votes? Secondly, his post are full of contradiction, which are for me one of the biggest scumtell. -snipped examples- So he tunnels me based on a 1-game Meta, but still admits that meta lynch are unreliable. Wut ? + Show Spoiler + On January 09 2012 04:32 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: I am not pretending it is pure meta. I am saying his meta confuses the shit out of me so I am not confident in my read on him. And my post said what I think of him now. On January 12 2012 04:42 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: gasdjafeaiuhfaisdf ...you think a guy who nearly got lynched wasn't interested in the lynch? Are you being serious right now? Yup, no confidence in any of those, certainly no aggressive tones or anything either. Also, as I stated before, Risk's play varies quite widely from game to game, despite him having been town in every game I have played with him. That is certainly not the norm for most players. But, the real deciding factor for me was nothing to do with that, it was simply that Risk's play seemed to be explainable from the perspective of a townie on the verge of being lynched and frustrated at having to defend himself. Knowing my own alignment, it was also odd to me that I was his main defender, I figured if he was scum surely a scum buddy would support my defense of him. Obviously that point doesn't get to apply to other people though, as they don't know my alignment. Was I sold on him being town? No, but he also didn't make my top 5 most likely to be scum. Tyrran on the other hand was doing that shit with me being the only real source of pressure on him. Of course he doesnt want a no-lynch to occurs, that's pretty mach the only bad outcome for angels at the end of day 1. Secondly, notice the "it is my understanding". He was the one to call for a Erandorr lynch based on meta. Yet this makes him look like he wasnt. + Show Spoiler + Ok, so this part isn't completely copy-pasted, it is just dumb reasoning, close enough. I'm sure if I said I wanted a no-lynch he'd say of course you do, lynching is our only way of killing angels! Thirdly : His reaction after Nigth one is strange, and deceptive. + Show Spoiler + If he was only talking about the "What in the fuck" part, I gave my explanation of that in the post linked at the start of this one, and then the following quote does not apply. However, I am kinda assuming it was also due to my continued discussion of it, in which case this does apply. On January 10 2012 03:51 layabout wrote: What Purpose does the Post "Why I think I was put in purgatory" serve? How does it help town? I think Palmar and/or his team mistakenly believed that I was the demon hunter due to these posts: You connect the idea of you being sent to purgatory* with the idea that your posting caused the demons to think that you were the demon hunter. You present the idea of your posts being responsible for the angels banishing you because you have made them think that you were the demonhunter. From this it would easily be infered that you posted TO make them think you were they demon hunter. You then say To me this seems like gloating because you associate the demons thinking that you were the demon hunter (which is WIFOM and total speculation) with a demon being lynched I don't see how this helps town but i do see how you associate your posting at the start of the game and a demon flipping and how this tries to put you in a better light despite the fact that your decisions about how to behave were almost certainly not made with that goal in mind and if they were the actual chance of them acheiving the result of a dead demon is next to none. That is why i see it as gloating. Speculation about scum motivation and scum goals when they commit actions that will be subject to scrutiny is what part of your post is and is almost the perfect example of WIFOM. *which could have been because either the channeller though you were a town asset to protect or a demon or angel to roleblock OR the demons felt that you were a blue or an angel OR you were targeted by one of the two because they felt night actions would land on you and they wished to roleblock those targerting you OR they may have simply wanted increase attention on you. There is a plethora of reasons that could be the case and without addition information we cannot rule many out. If the demons send a player to purgatory they know towwn will find out and this will impact their decision making. Okay, this post is just full of bullshit. I can see plenty of reason for demon to roleblock angels. + Show Spoiler + On January 10 2012 04:32 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: ...but there is literally a 0% chance of angels knowing which demon role Palmar was before he flipped so that is irrelevant. And you hit blues over demons because the seer, demon hunter, and channeler are all incredibly potent town assets against angels, and demons being alive gives you valid targets to scum hunt and get lynched instead of your teammates. If town is weak, sure, they might start killing off some demons on purpose, but them doing so now would be stupid. I elaborated point 3 because it was the only one that might actually be worth a damn to the demons. Now, unless anyone has specific questions for me or actually wants to lynch me instead of just saying "I think he might be an angel" and then doing nothing about it, I will no longer be mentioning my trip to purgatory/what I think the reasoning behind it is and will instead focus on more useful shit. On January 12 2012 05:41 syllogism wrote: Trolololol.Tyrran post a case on someone you would like to be lynched tomorrow and it can't be Jackal and it can't be copy/pasted material like everything else you've said so far. | ||
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RebirthOfLeGenD
USA5860 Posts
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