EPTI think being able to tell when you're being tunneled by mafia and when you're being tunneled by town is actually kind of a hard thing to do.
Purgatory Mafia - Page 2
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Palmar
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I think being able to tell when you're being tunneled by mafia and when you're being tunneled by town is actually kind of a hard thing to do. | ||
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On January 06 2012 00:20 Bluelightz wrote: Hmm, if it was that i'd re-evaluate everyone other then RoL and if i find someone else scummier then him I wouldn't shoot RoL but If I didn't find anyone scummier i'd shoot RoL. Wait, didn't you just read everyone's filter? What's there to re-evaluate? Do you not like your conclusion of everyone being null? | ||
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On January 06 2012 00:33 syllogism wrote: Palmar: do you think wishy washyness is a good scum tell in a setup with two scum teams? Did you read his student mafia filter where he randomly calls people scum, as scum? yes, I followed student mafia to the end. Even if he somehow convinces me he's town, I'm forcing him to play better. Nothing bad can come out of this. | ||
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Palmar
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On January 06 2012 00:30 Bluelightz wrote: I think RoL is more scum because he didnt post anything before now and risk.nuke "promised"more content but, if he didnt fullfill the promise I would consider that he is scum also. Alright, so at gunpoint, your highest possibility of flipping scum is RoL, based on the fact that he has not posted. That's very... interesting. You have little enough faith in your actual reads that you would risk a game to kill off someone who you have nothing to determine his alignment on. | ||
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Palmar
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On January 06 2012 01:07 Bluelightz wrote: Okay Palmar, I'm about to sleep.So, ask me what you want to ask now :3 Well, I'm not sure what I should be asking you, apparently you're happy with fencesitting through the lynch, throwing your vote randomly against some lurker. Your entire scumhunting process is "This guy has not posted, so he must be scum". And I have a problem with that. Don't let me keep you up, there's still another day. You better come up with something better tomorrow, even if it's only a measurement of your neck. | ||
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##Vote: Mr. Wiggles | ||
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Palmar
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This is loooong. But please read it very carefully, some of the most important bits are after the break. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Hi guys. First, we aren't lynching Bluelightz today. Reading through his posts, I'm getting a heavy new-town vibe from him. After he got called out, and started posting, this is how I've read him. Some people are saying that his posts sound like he has a scum-team behind him, but honestly, I don't think any scum team would let him post some of the things he did. As well, being calm when tunneled is not a scum tell in my opinion, in fact it's probably the opposite. A townie knows he is innocent, while a scum knows he is guilty. So, if you're being tunneled by someone, in which case do you think you'd be more nervous? When you know the person tunneling you is wrong, or when you know the person tunneling you is correct in their read? That's without even considering that he claims to have been gone during long periods in which he was supposed to be pressured. So, instead, I present to you all: Palmar http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=298603&user=87086 Palmar is normally a very aggressive and direct townie. He is not afraid to share his reads, to call people out, and to use his vote to pressure. He tunnels, and he is happy to call out bad play when he sees it. However, this is not the Palmar that we have in this game. Look at this. For someone who has played with me extensively in the past, he should know by now that I hate the "create plans" and "discuss if we want to lynch lurkers" phase of the game, so most of the time I ignore it and really start posting once I think there's something to discuss. In addition, aside from XLIV where I tunneled as part of a strategy (I tunneled just to see how town would respond), Please show me an example of a game where I tunneled on day one. I dare you to go and find a proper tunnel from me on day one that isn't XLIV. I have a feeling you're not going to be able to. I usually just read the thread, talk to people, and then at some point I make a decision. Usually with less than 24 hours to go. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: For example, take this post: It's a post that's all over the place, and it's a post that contains no solid reads except that at that time, he didn't think that Bluelightz was necessarily scum. However, against everyone else, he doesn't provide any solid accusation. He says he wants to look at Grack, and that he would be fine lynching "people like RoL or Jackal". Notice that he doesn't actually say that he'd be fine lynching Jackal or RoL, just people like them, which makes what he said entirely non-committal. It's almost the same thing as saying he wants to lynch lurking vets without calling any out. Once again, before you think about what Wiggles is doing here, remember that this guy actually knows exactly how I play, yet he's trying to make it look like something else. Of course the post has no solid reads, it's a conversation with syllogism. Something I've found incredibly useful to determine the alignment of people I know very well (mostly sandro and syllo). In addition, English may not be my first language, but did anyone actually read the last sentence the way wiggles did? Cause it sure as hell meant I'm willing to lynch those two, not just people like them. Like, did anyone seriously read this sentence, and get out of it that I'm not fine with lynching Jackal and RoL? Maybe I'm completely off here, but this to me is stretching the point seriously. What I was trying to point out is that sometimes people make an argument for not lynching lurking veterans on day one, and I was saying that I'd have no problem lynching them, ie: lynching Jackal or RoL. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: In his following posts, he has still yet to provide us with any scum reads, or to even pressure anyone. All he gives us are a couple of town reads and questions for syllo. Yes, I want to see where syllo stands. The complete misrepresentation (thanks Ver) of what happened between me and Bluelightz is the most telling thing from Wiggles in the game. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Next, is his altercation with Bluelightz, which I find very odd. Earlier, Palmar noted that he thought "it's unlikely he's scum", but then he felt the need to try to pressure him. So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Pressuring Bluelightz to take a stance was fine, but the way in which Palmar did it was odd. Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). Also, notice that Palmar is pressuring Bluelightz for giving a list of null and green reads, when this is the exact same thing Palmar has done up to this point in the game. It's hypocritical. So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Instead, he acts rather timidly compared to the pro-town Palmar I know. He doesn't even end up answering his own question afterwards, even when asked to, refusing yet again to take a stance on scum. This is what it comes down to. First off, Wiggles accuses me of changing my mind. That's dumb in the first place, because well... that's how you play this game. (notice, with this post I'm changing my mind on Wiggles). The best part is that Wiggles is actually not reading the thread, which is why his case is so heavily founded on attempting to create some meta on how I'm supposed to play on day 1, and trying to prove I'm not fitting it. I'll show you an example of Wiggles not reading the thread: On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, something that Bluelightz posted must have caused some kind of concern for Palmar. The only thing posted by Bluelightz in this time, was his list of reads, so this must have been what set Palmar off. Wiggles is speculating about why I decided to attack Bluelightz On January 06 2012 00:00 Palmar wrote: After Bluelight's latest list of only town/null reads and his wishy-washy-ness with accusing people I might actually just off him. I was kinda leaning maybe noob-town on him, but I don't like his last few posts. But there is no need to speculate, I said exactly what the deal was. I asked Bluelightz a simple question (who would you lynch?) and he failed to produce an answer other than "a lurker". After which I pressured him to answer using increasingly harsh methods. Here's more: On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: Instead of asking Bluelightz who he would like to lynch, he instead came up with some sort of compulsive vig scenario, which doesn't add anything to the thread, and actually ended up detracting from it (see subsequent discussion with people jumping on the question instead of just discussing the lynch). This is awesome, when you want to create a huge-ass case as scum, at least have the decency to read the posts of the person you're accusing, that way someone might buy it. (clickable) On January 05 2012 21:42 Palmar wrote: So who would you lynch Bluelightz? I want to establish this, I did ask Bluelightz who he wanted to lynch, then I asked him again, to get him to clarify a target, after he failed again I created a scenario to force him to actually give me an answer. Remember, the scenario, is essentially just "who do you think has the highest chance of flipping scum right now?", which should be exactly the same question as "who would you lynch?". This is important because for some reason Wiggles is attempting to make it look like a bad thing people are saying who they would lynch? I have no idea how that makes sense. And what has the fact that other people answered the question got to do with me? I mean, let's ignore for a moment the fact that people telling us who they think are scum is usually a good idea for town, and just focus on the fact that apparently I am scummy for something other people did. That's just plain wrong. You can never deduce anything about anyone's alignment from other people's actions. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote: So, after he finally gets an answer from Bluelightz, he still doesn't apply any actual pressure to him. He doesn't vote for him, he doesn't ask for people to vote for him, he just said he might vote for him in the future, which does not create pressure, and is completely different from my experience with town Palmar. Palmar doesn't even attack the bad posts made by Bluelightz, where for example he said he would lynch a lurker instead of naming one. Pressure votes are useless, that's dumb as shit Wiggles. I have a feeling Bluelightz is scum, but until I actually have time to create a case to prove it, the vote doesn't actually do anything because it's not backed up with anything. Actually, I invite anyone in this thread to read the entire exchange, I'll provide a link: Clicky! And see if they get the same read on this as Wiggles. He accuses me of not attacking bad posts, when I created the entire scenario just to drag up an answer from Bluelightz, he accuses me of not pressuring.... well, read the next 2 pages, and see what conclusion you come to. On January 06 2012 08:59 Mr. Wiggles wrote:So, I think Palmar is scum for his wishy-washiness, failure to provide any scum-reads, and for his timid posting and interactions. This is doubly condemning in the light of his normal town play, which is the complete opposite of what we see here. This is our Day 1 Lynch. No you are, because you cannot possibly be this bad. ##Vote: Mr. Wiggles | ||
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Palmar
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On January 06 2012 09:16 Erandorr wrote: Ya I probably should post sometime soon but I am really tired and want to sleep soon. If anyone has any question for me just go ahead, I will provide content of my own tomorrow. This guy should be shot during the night. | ||
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Do you not want to lynch wiggles? Did you read my omgus case? | ||
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Since I've only played with you as scum once where I haven't known you're scum, and figured it out in like half a day, I'm just gonna assume you're town for now. I do care, I was asking you to point out the meta, not the stuff in this thread, I guess I can go to election mafia and read his day 1 later. The read I had on him was "worthless, unsure it makes him scum". I was hoping you'd explain the meta so I don't have to think. The particular response you linked is correct and I agree with what risk.nuke is saying (there is actually no need to commit to a lynch) however, it's useless if he himself doesn't actually generate any discussion which he hasn't done. In addition, he claims to have had some sort of a plan? agenda? which is at best terrible, at worst scummy. There seems to actually be nothing to that plan. I'd like to hear him at least explain what the hell he was hoping to achieve by it. The reason I'm a bit on the fence about him is this: On January 06 2012 04:18 risk.nuke wrote: syllo, I started the post about 2 hours ago. I share what I want to share when I want to share it. Don't try and control me and please don't try to meta me. All my games I have a different style because I play varying of my mood. It's just... cocky enough to probably not be scummy. I guess I wouldn't mind him being shot. Did you actually read the parts where wiggles says things that are straight up wrong? | ||
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Syllogism has provided arguments as for why he thinks risk.nuke is scum, and is pushing me to agree with him. | ||
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don't try to meta me is certainly something scum would rather say than town, however in the context, it's basically null. Why are you forcing this so hard? If you think I'm town, and are town yourself, you know I will go find out if what you say is true, and you know that I do listen to you. You also know that I'm not just going to flop on something as solid as the case against wiggles. Do you actually think Wiggles says things that are factually wrong against a townie he knows is going to be valuable as town to attempt to get him lynched on day 1? No matter how you look at it Wiggles's play is completely anti-town, the only question is if that makes him scum (I guess the same goes for risk.nuke). Just convince other people, if people actually think your case against risk.nuke is stronger than mine against wiggles, they will vote it, and I will probably support it unless I find any damning evidence otherwise. None of the things I mentioned in risk's favor make him town, they just are kinda off as scum too. | ||
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Palmar
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On January 06 2012 20:34 syllogism wrote: I haven't said that I think you are town and thus having this discussion is helpful not only because I think risk.nuke should be lynched. What do you think about Erandorr? I know for a fact that he was playing dota 2 all day yesterday, even after he said he was too tired to post and wanted to sleep Not much to say about it. Can lynch him too, if we want a safe lynch with a high chance of hitting scum. | ||
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Palmar
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What is it in my case against wiggles that you agree with? Care to explain why you've come to the conclusion I'm right? | ||
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