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On January 02 2012 20:26 Toadesstern wrote:
Actually greymist your reasoning to nay-vote my team is wrong. I did not put this team up because of those 3 spies we have. I put this team up because they still are the strongest town reads we got so far. The team I told Zona would be a team that's suggested because of those 3 spies.
Just ask yourself a couple questions:
Do you think Radfield is a spy?
Do you think we should send palmar on a mission after 2 consecutive failures?
Do you think Zona is a spy when you're not willing to send Palmar (given you answered #2 with no)?
Do you think I am a spy?
If you're answering a single (or multiple) questions with yes, fine that's a prefectly fine reason to nay-vote. However if you answered everything with yes I want your vote. I did not put this team up because of truth+palmar+VE. I suggested this team because I am not willing to suggest palmar a third time (you already agreed to that) and at the same time I still think rad+Grey are good townreads for everyone (apperently except zona...). That's the reason I suggested the team. I'm trying to make this as easy as it can get for you guys and those people on my team all have decent towncred. Yet we have mass-nay's. Why do you think it's like that?
EBWOP
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Well Toad, two of your nay votes are from people actually ON your team.... so you can't really say mafia are mass down-voting your mission.
In other news, I am going to ignore Blazinghand from here on out and focus on other things. Once I get home today I'm going to mass scumhunt. Until then I'm going to continue visiting with family and friends, but I expect to actually see some townies posting at some point.
You guys cannot all be scum, yet I am being painted with a red brush on absolutely brutal arguments, and no one is making a peep about it.
Palmar, do you think I am town or scum. VE same question. You guys both just finished playing a game with me where I was town. What is your read this game? SPEAK!
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On January 02 2012 22:19 Radfield wrote:
Well Toad, two of your nay votes are from people actually ON your team.... so you can't really say mafia are mass down-voting your mission.
In other news, I am going to ignore Blazinghand from here on out and focus on other things. Once I get home today I'm going to mass scumhunt. Until then I'm going to continue visiting with family and friends, but I expect to actually see some townies posting at some point.
You guys cannot all be scum, yet I am being painted with a red brush on absolutely brutal arguments, and no one is making a peep about it.
Palmar, do you think I am town or scum. VE same question. You guys both just finished playing a game with me where I was town. What is your read this game? SPEAK!
Zona is not a real vote, he's just tunneling you and therefore voted nay 
Greymist voted nay because according to him my team is a team I set up because of palmar/VE/truth, which is not true. I mean if he thinks I am mafia that's a reason I could understand but he did not say that's the reason of his nay.
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Did you not say " those three are our spies"? And in any case I am nay voting you because I am both suspicious of you and wary of radfield.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
The big thing about this team is that it's saying "toad rad grey zona"
Which is saying "on day 1, palmar or blazinghand (or both) were spies (rad town), and on day 2, palmar VE (or both) were spies (greymist, toad town)"
it's also saying "zona doesn't look scummy" and i have serious reservations about zona. I think i'm going to nayvote this team after all.
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Team Rejected!
A team consisting of Toadesstern, Radfield, GreYMisT and Zona has been rejected for this mission!
Final vote count:
Yays: Toadesstern
Nays: Palmar Zona TruthBringer GreYMisT Blazinghand
The new leader is Blazinghand whose team is: None
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
Man here come the nayvotes, right guys? I'm gonna lay down the reasoning for my team, put something together, and post it. That being said, if you think i'm scum you should just nayvote me now and get on with it.
Here are some general thoughts:
1) I do not trust Radfield. Radfield's actions d1 still are suspicious to me. I'm fairly sure he picked me for his team even though I looked scummy due to the "don't talk about spy meta" thing specifically BECAUSE he wanted me to be a fall guy. Zona goes into detail about this in some posts.
2) I do not trust Palmar. He's been relatively quiet, which doesn't say much, but he was on both teams that lost, and I wouldn't put it past Radfield to pick Palmar d1.
3) I do not trust Jackal58 for previously mentioned reasons including Hammering. The fact that he hammered the N2 team is meaningless though
4) VE actually seems okay to me. He was aggressive towards me but didn't tunnel and didn't make too many factual errors.
5) Truthbringer is still suspicious for me.
6) Greymist seems kosher. I'm somewhat worried about his post-reading skills and math skills but he seems more town than not.
7) I'm distrustful of Zona for a) the scum meta post on d1 and b) the completely unreasonable conclusion that both Rad and I are mafia (????) and then being like "well i'm voting against this team because blazinghand is voting for it" when RAd and I almost always vote at odds.
8) Toadesstern has been wrong for the right reasons this game. He's been asking questions, and rather reasonably included Radfield on his team. The thing I don't trust about him was the inclusion of Zona. That being said, I'm not willing to trust Truthbringer over him, and Palmar and Radfield are both iffy, and jackal is suspicious, and if I trusted zona i wouldn't be suspicious of Toad in the first place.
therefore, my team is Blazinghand, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes, and GreyMist.
Gentlemen, start your nayvotes! Anyone who thinks i'm mafia, please nayvote immediately so we can move on. Anyone who's iffy or who thinks i'm town, ask questions and interact with me! We will have many fun times together, I promise.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
I said I was going to ignore you, but I just cannot help myself. Why do you think I thought you were scummy on Day 1 when I specifically said I felt you were town?
I will likely nay-vote this, but not until I take another hard look at Palmar.
We are losing this game because people are not posting. If you're town please start posting more so we can develop decent reads.
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I am going to nay-vote this team, I am simply not comfortable with you on/picking a team at this point, and I am also interested to see what Jackal has to offer us, and if his team differs from what he posted earlier.
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Also, I would like to echo what Zona said earlier and take it perhaps one step further. If you propose a team, please don't even vote for yourself until it has been decided to accept your team. This is because all we need are 2 town at this point yay-voting a team with a spy for the remaining 3 players to hammer and end the game.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
I agree with radfield that increased posting from town players would be nice.
Radfield, I don't believe your "town" read on me on day1 was legitimate. I think everyone thought i was mafia day 1 after I made this post:
On December 26 2011 17:03 Blazinghand wrote:
Team: Radfield (yourself, who is confirmed town to you), plus Zona (for example), plus someone who gives off a solid town read like, say, Blazinghand. If the mission fails, you can reasonably say "well I think this was Zona" (though others will not be able to do so). The beauty of this though is, assuming you're right about the "1 mafia among Zona/Palm/Rad", If your mission succeeds, you've pinned down a mafia member! (WIFOM alert: Mafia, knowing this, might intentionally not sabotage, etc).
A post like this which shared spy information is very scummy, and several people pointed this out, which is why people were suspicious of both Zona and myself who made posts like this on day 1. It's why Zona didn't even bother making a team because people were probably gonna mass nayvote it anyways.
In any case, I didn't like that you chose me day 1. Looking back on it, I think you were setting me up to be a "fall guy".
It could be you just didn't think that was that big of a slip-up. That being said, a couple of other things (the unnecessary discussion of the 1/3 1/3 1/3 possibility, the delayed justification, whether you meant it or not) also compound that suspicion.
In any case, I think my team is pretty solid. I think that most people will look at this team and think that the weakest link is Blazinghand. I, knowing myself to be town, suffer from no such doubts. This is a good team.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
Alright Greymist I'll unvote my team but really if you don't trust me and think i'm a spy it's impossible for three spies to hammer the vote, since there are only 2 spies remaing, right? 
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On January 03 2012 07:57 Blazinghand wrote:Alright Greymist I'll unvote my team but really if you don't trust me and think i'm a spy it's impossible for three spies to hammer the vote, since there are only 2 spies remaing, right?
Indeed, that was a general announcement directed towards all players.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
But yeah given that it's d3 and we have only 1 loss left we should be careful. It's possible I've made a misread, and in that case if my team gets 2 votes and then gets hammered all manner of bad things will happen. And by that i mean we'll lose.
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I'm naying because of Toad and BH on the team. We should rapidly nay vote this so we can get some good team propositions from either jackal or Palmar.
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
TB you have said that Toad is a spy, but you haven't mentioned why-- here's what you say about Toad:
On December 31 2011 08:07 TruthBringer wrote:
Toad is the sketchiest person on the team, in my opinion, but really he is just a null for me and I prefer him over Blazinghand or Jackal.
On January 01 2012 12:28 TruthBringer wrote:
I think it is more likely that 1 of Radfield and Blazinghand was a spy, and 1 of Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes is a spy.
In that case, I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy.
Why do you think toad is a spy? I'd rather not bring a spy along on a mission. I'd like to hear your case.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Truthbringer: You state that: "I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy."
This means you believe their entire argument to be phony, and that Toad is effectively bussing me, correct? And your suspicions of Toad are mainly from him nay-voting day 1?
Zona, in your opening post you wrote:
As far as I can tell, the ideal team for spies is one with just a single spy on it, then there's no guessing necessary for that spy, he/she can just sabotage. I suppose it's possible for the spy to hold back (for wifom?) but given that there's only 5 missions total, I don't think it's worth it...at least at this level of play.
Yet you are now pushing that A spy leader on day one deliberately put another spy onto the three man team. Despite the fact that it is unnecessarily risky and ends up casting suspicion on 2/3rds of the scum team. Do you still actually believe that blazinghand and me are scum together?
Right now I'm leaning towards Zona being scum, simply because the things he is saying do not make sense from a townie perspective(or at least from MY perspective).
Here is a list of the things zona has written this game that have left me scratching my head:
To be honest I wish I could just push Radfield to RNG the other two members
Okay, because of part of what I posted, now I think it's a bad idea to include me in the mission. I will vote against a team that includes me.
I'm still thinking through the merits of aiming for a 0 spy mission, vs aiming for a 2+ spy mission so don't call me out on the "if" part just yet.
As for Truth's team, I'm still mulling over whether or not Truth is likely town, because I think whether or not the team is good solely depends on if Truth is town.
Not to mention that Zona's style of finding a good team is completely backwards:
Blazinghand and Radfield are spies. One of Toadesstern, GreYMisT and VisceraEyes is a spy. (Palmar is not a spy due to Blazinghand/Radfield being spies.)
Truthbringer, Palmar, Jackal, and I are town. This is the team I want.
This is simply NOT how you behave when you are losing 0-2 in a best of five. You simply cannot work all the way backwards off of 1(wrong) assumption of me and blazinghand being scum. You're not even LOOKING at the potential townyness or scummyness of Palmar, Jackal or Truthbringer, and that is a terrible way to play. You can't simply make 1 read and infer the rest of the alignments.
However, none of this adds up to necessarily being scum. It may simply add up to zona operating under an extremely different mindset than me. The only other game I have played with zona was ages ago. Zona was scum and as far as I recall did not particularly play like this. I might OK a mission with zona if pressed, but I would prefer to not have him going.
Greymist is probably Town. All his posts make good sense, and he is asking exactly the questions that popped into my head as well. His team was solid, and I agreed with the players and the decisions behind the players. However Greymist's scumhunting has been a bit lacking, and I would like to see more contribution.
Jackal has posted very little this entire game. Certainly not enough to be able to make an adequate town read on him. He is basically a full null with a slight scum read, but there is simply not enough posts or content to get a solid read. Certainly no way to get a solid town read. Jackal, surely you understand that despite what you may know about your own alignment, there is no way any of us can vote for you on today's team. I urge you to propose a team that does not include you on it.
Palmar's first post contains two pro-town ideas. His second post is also interesting, in that he downvotes a team that includes himself. If he is scum, it's unlikely he would downvote that team since he knows it will fail, unless it included multiple scum and he didn't want to risk that. However, basically all Palmar's posts contribute, and going through them they all make pretty solid sense. However his activity level is alarming. He's not pushing his ideas and seems pretty ambivalent on the whole. Get in here Palmar, push my towniness and team up with me, then shake things up and get your team through. I think Palmar is probably Town.
VE gave me a pretty decent pro-town vibe early on, but I am losing it. He failed a mission on night 2, and his activity level is far far below where it should be. He is extremely active as town in my experience, and he has really sat back this game. This post also did not sit great with me:
On January 02 2012 07:21 VisceraEyes wrote:Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 21:58 Palmar wrote:
greymist/toad is one
Blazinghand is one
Zona/Jackal is one
That leaves our mission team for today as me/you/truth/ve. This is as it should be. My guess for scum is Toad/Blazinghand/Jackal. Therefor a team would include anyone that is not one of those three and my vote will reflect that.
You simply cannot play this way on Day 3 with our back up against the wall. He is taking his three top scum reads and saying "OK, anyone else can go". That is seriously putting all your eggs in one basket. He makes no attempt here to actually find townies, or make the best team, simply puts forward a scum team and runs with it 100%. That kind of attitude is sure to lose this game for us. I was leaning town on VE, but at this point I need to see a lot more and would prefer to not see him on a mission.
I'm going to bed now, and don't have time to do Toad or to properly do Truth. I was leaning town on Toad before, but a lot of players are seeing him as scummy, so I need to re-evaluate. Truthbringer looks ok, but I'm not sure if he is mission worthy yet.
Blazinghand is very likely scum.
So the team I am willing to approve right now contains Palmar(likely town), Greymist(probably town), Myself(certainly town) and probably truthbringer but I'm not sure. I will find the 4th player tomorrow.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On January 03 2012 10:10 TruthBringer wrote:
I'm naying because of Toad and BH on the team. We should rapidly nay vote this so we can get some good team propositions from either jackal or Palmar.
Please don't wait for the leaders to propose a team. What is your ideal team Truth. Who do you see as our 4 most likely townies?
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Blazinghand
United States25563 Posts
Radfield, did you find my reason for suspecting you reasonable?
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On January 03 2012 10:14 Blazinghand wrote:TB you have said that Toad is a spy, but you haven't mentioned why-- here's what you say about Toad: Show nested quote +On December 31 2011 08:07 TruthBringer wrote:
Toad is the sketchiest person on the team, in my opinion, but really he is just a null for me and I prefer him over Blazinghand or Jackal. Show nested quote +On January 01 2012 12:28 TruthBringer wrote:
I think it is more likely that 1 of Radfield and Blazinghand was a spy, and 1 of Greymist, Toadesstern, VisceraEyes is a spy.
In that case, I would say Blazinghand is a spy and Toadesstern is a spy. Why do you think toad is a spy? I'd rather not bring a spy along on a mission. I'd like to hear your case.
don't even ask him. I already asked 3 times and he hasn't mentioned a single issue he has.
About the new team: Going to nayvote it since VE's on the team.
Also I don't understand why I should be bussing rad oO
If I am a spy along with rad I managed to singlehandedly lose this game after getting a 2-0 lead while everyone in this thread thinks that rad+Toad are town. Just two interesting questions and yeah, I am kind of screwing palmars "rule" right now (give it a try and think about his post for a second...):
1) Do you really think someone is bussing someone else? If mafia wants to win this they need to make teams possible that got multiple mafias on them unless they get a straight 3-0. A mafia saying another mafia looks mafia (= bussing) is essentially the most stupid thing you can do because you're ruling out one out 3 possible win-teams (AB, BC, AC) for them just because A said B looks mafia which makes AB impossible. At least everyone else would nayvote it instantly if you want that team because yay voting a team with someone who is scum according to your reads does look kind of strange.
So unless mafia get's a clear 3-0 win Mafia can not afford to bus each other. Also there is literally nothing you get out of bussing each other. In normal games you see flips and get instant-towncred. We don't have flips and there won't be towncred at all. Just give me a single reason why Mafia should bus each other?
2) Mafias in a 2-0 lead. It's basicly lylo or whatever you want to call it. Do you really think mafia is going to risk this by posting a lot right now? Hell no, they're chilling and waiting for a nice team while trying to get as less attention as possible.
That's what VE is doing, that's what Palmar is doing and Truth just stepped in his thread to tell everyone "hey guyses, I think Toad is mafia but I got not a single reason or post to back it up, but you guys have to believe me!" which did nothing but chaos for town so far.
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EPT
