Responsibility Mafia!
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On December 19 2011 16:02 prplhz wrote: Just a little pre-alignment disclaimer: I'll possibly be somewhat unavailable during parts of December 24th and December 26th because of birthday parties. Yeah, the Christ gets down. 1 day isn't enough. | ||
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On December 20 2011 06:15 prplhz wrote: Feel free to put in OP. Ver's filter ZBot's filter
RebirthOfLeGenD's filter works alright, it's just that he hasn't posted in this thread yet. I don't even care if you're scum, you get a pass d1 from me for THIS POST RIGHT HERE. *praise* | ||
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U da man prpl. | ||
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I voted in the voting thread, but I didn't notice anyone named "200 crunches" on the playerlist when I looked at the current votecount. | ||
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On December 20 2011 14:17 SamuelLJackson wrote: It's essentially the same start to the game as the random voting stage that takes place on mafiascum (you play there don't you?). It's something to kick the game off and generate discussion. bum your first post is beyond bad. You're deciding that we should be the subject of any impasse in votes with justification which is the exact opposite of RNG (while still trying to disguise it as RNG). I hope you put more thought and logic into your next posts. I get RVS, but the results wouldn't be "random" because it would involve trusting a "random" member of town to produce "unbiased random" results, which is not possible. And on MafiaScum, the votes in RVS are rarely "random", that's a pretty common misnomer over there. Anyway, I don't condone it. I can't get past the 'no information' aspect of RNG voting D1. | ||
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As far as Policy Lynching the hydra...no. I don't understand GM's irrational hatred for them, but I can say with certainty that as far as Policy Lynches go, I'd prefer a spammy Chezinu lynch over a blind hydra lynch 100% of the time. If the hydra starts acting scummy, then we'll talk. But lynching just for being a hydra, when both players are known to be relatively skilled at the game, no thanks. Now, onto content that concerns them both. SamJackson asks Chez (specifically) about his feelings on lynching the traitor (specifically). This is strange to me. First of all, I don't know why they would ask Chez about that. That's literally asking "How do you feel about lynching scum?"......really? Why? What is the point of asking this question? It looks like a blatant attempt to appear to be contributing. I don't like it, and I'd like some clarification on the purpose of the question. Chez' response is in line with what I perceive as his style, but obviously "Nooooooooooooo!" reads like he's either the traitor and doesn't want to get lynched, or scum and doesn't want his buddy lynched. It's very obviously a joke, but I don't like it any more than I like the question itself. The hydra then goes on to insist that Chez "claimed traitor" and believes the claim. The whole exchange is fishy to me, and I'm watching both players (slots?) with a critical eye. HERE ARE SOME QUESTIONS!!!! Chezinu: Are you the Traitor? Did you expect to be seen as the Traitor given your response to SamJack's question? Sand/Curu: What was the purpose of your question? Did you expect scum to answer your question truthfully? If not, why did you ask it? If so, are you retarded? | ||
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On December 21 2011 03:57 SamuelLJackson wrote: I dunno. I thought that maybe he could have some super secret hidden purpose for trying to claim Traitor like that. There is no argument that this post had any other purpose than to claim Traitor. That wasn't what I wanted to know, I wanted to know why Chezinu was claiming Traitor. At the time I didn't want to outright call it out in thread in case he had some hidden purpose but clearly he didn't. GMarshal for all your talk on working on analysis you sure haven't contributed any opinions besides your "irrational hatred." /Curu Thanks for responding to my post without answering my questions! ##Vote: SamuelLJackson | ||
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Okay, looking back, the post you're referencing WAS before you asked him the question, I was assuming that the post you quoted was after you'd asked him about lynching the Traitor. My rationale was that I thought you asked the question and then he made the statement you quoted, so it seemed to me that you were leading him into behaving in such a way that would make it seem like he was claiming Traitor. That was my bad. ##Unvote: SamuelLJackson I have to reread with that in mind before I make a judgment on whether or not I believe Chezinu to have slipped/misjudged the perceptiveness of town. | ||
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Has very few posts. I disagree with your assessment that On December 21 2011 01:52 LSB wrote: Just knowing the roles doesn't mean anything. I can tell you there is probably a cop, doc, sk, vig, ect ect. What does that help you with? Night actions I guess. There is a big difference between knowing who has who's role, and just knowing the list of roles. For example, if we knew that there was a traitor, we wouldn't do much. However if we knew that Chez was the traitor, that would be an easy day 1 lynch. ...indicates hidden knowledge - SK is a fairly common Normal role, there's no reason to assume that it would be excluded in a closed setup. Further, there's no reason to assume that scum would have been alerted to the presence of a SK. Further still, there's no reason to assume that a good player like LSB would slip the knowledge IF he were scum and IF they were given the knowledge of a possible existing SK. It feels like reaching. I also don't like your point about him not understanding players being indicative of his alignment. Like, why? One of the players in question is Chezinu, and I'm totally with him on not understanding Chezinu's stylie. In general, I've got LSB hovering around the 'null' category pending further posts. | ||
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Your bit about the Chezinu meta is intriguing though, I have to admit. I read it as "Because he was scum, he could have been actively subverting his meta, thereby rendering it useless", but your version of what he could have been saying makes sense too...I'd like to hear what LSB has to say on the matter. My point about him being good was that the slips you're suggesting are like, noob slips. I'm well aware that vets are capable of slipping too, but they're far less likely to make the slips you're suggesting. That's all I'm saying. Anyway, I've said my piece about LSB, and I'm waiting for him to respond to your case before I give it any further thought. | ||
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Why all the L hate? I read L's first post and it was like BAM, metal intro music, bitches going crazy, etc. His second post gave me the same feeling. What has got you guys all worked up about L? I mean, aside from the THREE in-game posts he's made? They all appear to be fairly good contributions...am I missing something? | ||
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For the record, L's posts ALL gave me something to think about while reading this game, and I'll tell you what they were...right now. On December 20 2011 15:30 L wrote: Alright, straight off the bat people are saying that we need good posts. No shit. Not only is the concept of the game surrounding the idea that poor play will be punished, but there's also the notion that we've got relatively few players. in the game. 5 to 15 or so. This means that best case scenario, we can win day 5 through lynches alone, but that's a rather long timeframe to close out a game. So poor play seems to be some form of game accelerant, and the 'poorer' the play, the less in our favor it seems to be. So! What do we do? Post with content and condense your points. Keep your short posts to yourself and clump them up to make substantive comments. I'd say that posts between 6 and 15 lines are large enough to be substantive, but short enough to be read. But that shit is obvious. There's a bigger question here, however, which is what we're going to do with the first vote. RNG is probably the worst possible idea; gives us next to zero information regarding how people argue and its practically an excuse for people to not post anything because there's no element of responsibility attached to it. Either way, we're going to want ideas down on the table asap. And not like dicks, either. Cut it out bum/prplhz. Like, it seems obvious, but I hadn't thought about it in quite this way until L pointed it out. On December 20 2011 18:59 L wrote: Like what, exactly? Also, please don't post one liners. They inflate the thread size and make it tedious to read through content later. RE: RNG RNG doesn't force people to make a move one way or another and provides less information regarding people's inclinations than having someone pick a metric for a day 1 play to be made. The "shoot the inactive" metric was the standard when games were substantially larger, people talked less, and the metric itself was generally not held onto, just used as a prod to get people talking. As far as I'm concerned, RNG just cedes the first day's information content unless someone with a particularly interesting role gets selected. Please tell me how a random target provides more information than one who we can pick? It seems like by definition that RNG eliminates at least one layer of information: the choice. And there's no real benefit to the tradeoff in terms of preventing someone from hiding their kill attempt: If someone wants to get someone in particular put under the gun, they can fake a RNG call to make them the presumed target. If there's anything pro-town about the RNG plan its that it removes any fear to assigning a presumption of lynch to start discussion off. I don't see why there isn't a better metric to use than 'none' for that purpose. And even then, it doesn't seem like the attempt actually fostered the discussion you're saying it would, but maybe that's because the current RNG specified target hasn't been around in the thread. Either way, it seems like an empty placeholder topic. The previous placeholder topic, inactivity, served a practical purpose. I fail to see what reliable benefit comes from this one. So, the obvious question becomes which metric SHOULD we use. This is the question that RNG ends up proposing because it runs on the assumption that a) A lynch is better than no-lynch (I agree, in general) and b) that discussion surrounding the RNG could lead to a better target. I agree with a), but think that b) implies that we focus ourselves on determining a characteristic which outperforms RNG. This is why I think the plan is stupid; because IT ISN'T ONE. I'm super exhausted, but I'll think up some criteria for a day 1 lynch tomorrow. RE: The hydra I have no idea what/who this is, but I think I happened across it twice reading the thread. Is this someone's nickname? I haven't kept up with the last few (months of) games, so hook a brother up. RE: Me Sleep time. Peace! RE: Post formatting This is a very handy format and will make it easier to zip through pages to find discussions on a certain topic. Feel free to use it. Not sure how well it'll work when quoted, though. 1) I'm generally disliking your 1-line approach to this game, and hope you ramp it up at some point. L agrees with me. I like L. 2) His explanation of RNG made me feel all warm and fuzzy too, but I don't know if it's because I share the sentiment, or because it was an actual attempt to answer the question I specifically posed...the world may never know. 3) I actually will be adopting this format of posting, because I agree that it makes it much easier to locate a topic you're interested in discussing while going through pages of crazy shit (Chez did/didn't claim traitor, RNG discussion, lolTriggers). Although for people posting one line at a time, I can see how this would be a non-issue. On December 21 2011 04:56 L wrote: RE: LSB You realize you *kinda* already did with your previous post, right? That section in particular makes a statement about triggers, and in particular says that town has triggers in an affirmative manner. You state this directly. The odd thing is that your post is structured to make it look like speculation, but you made an affirmative statement. This wasn't "Its possible that town has triggers too" it was "town has triggers too". The reason why I said *kinda* is that Chez said (and I haven't gone to the OP post yet to confirm) that mafia know some of the town roles. If that's the case, they might also know about some town conditional roles and be able to claim that they exist with certainty. So you're either mafia or you have a triggered role. And onto different matters: RE: Hindered comment from BumatLarge Yep. That's a good way of putting it. I haven't played in a shitton of time and I have no idea who most of the players are or if they'd benefit from extensive day 1 analysis. I also don't know if any of these triggers would be set off by some kind of explaining, or how the day 1 meta works anymore. Given all those things I figured it would be smarter to start off slow. So, if you push my accelerant idea, it would mean that at least some of the triggers activate powers that kill people. That doesn't, however, mean that there isn't the possibility for other triggered abilities. That should be pretty obvious. This was also an implicit roleclaim on my part which should only have been obvious to people with triggers themselves. But then you asked me to push more on the point, and stated that you were sad that I hadn't. This leads me to believe that you also have a triggered role and all of the above was obvious to you, but that my explanation might activate your trigger, or that you wanted a claim out of me. And that's berry interesting because asides from chez claiming traitor, it seems like all the people who have put information about their role into the game implicitly or explicitly thusfar have triggers to their role. This means we're going to hit a situation wherein we're going to have fucking ugly dt and medic claims with triggers and shit to sort through. FUCK. I actually think you just need to read this whole post and really think about what it says. I liked the whole fucking thing. There seems to be a lot of crazy shit floating around regarding the triggers, and mafia are going to be able to hide in it when they actually become an issue. Establishing that fact NOW is going to help us THEN, regardless of whether you think he's contributing or not. Are you just picking on the low-post-count-guy Palmar? Please don't be that guy. Or if you're scum, PLEASE DO be that guy, because you'll be found out soon. | ||
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##Vote: Palmar Let's see where this leads. | ||
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##Unvote: Palmar ##Vote: Foolishness 2 reasons. 1) I'm never sure what time it is where Palmar is from because he seems to be around ALL the time sometimes. And he was JUST here, so I assumed he was going to wait on a response from me. I guess I was mistaken. 2) Foolishness scares me. :X He's way better than I am. I mean, Palmar's probably nominally better than me too, but he's not even in the same league as Foolishness. | ||
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"His first post was generic advice. His second post didn't follow this generic advice, instead he rambles on about RNG for ages, concluding that it is bad even though it has evidently spurred discussion. His third post, he concludes that LSB is either red or blue then just leaves it there. In the second part of his post he displays excellent logic I think, but then he kinda outs bumatlarge as blue. Why would a town aligned player ever give his blue reads like this?" His first post was generic advice, but did I felt he had a couple of nuggets of original thought in there too. That's contributing, don't let anyone tell you differently. Read the part I bolded and tell me if that had occurred to you. I specifically called for the information L provided regarding RNG, so I'm biased where that's concerned. He answered my question and then some. But I disagree that he 'concluded that it's bad', that's oversimplifying what he said. In his third post, I have to concede that he did in essence "out" bum as blue (if he's town)...but let me ask you this: what motivation is there for scum to "out a blue"? They're trying to appear town, right? And a townie has no feasible motivation for "outing a blue" without a good reason. So why would scum do it? His good reason was to make the point about the 'triggers' that we'll have to worry about later, so I've got a tentative town read on L. | ||
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On December 21 2011 15:51 chaoser wrote: Finally, L is currently semi-scummy to me. In his first post he addresses the issue of RNG lynching and then says that we need a new metric to decide on who to lynch but never delivers on it, merely saying: He never provides anything "asap." I noticed this and though other people brought it up (bum I think) and he responded to it by saying that he's playing it slow at the moment, it still seems scummy due to the fact that he said ideas should be on the table "asap" and yet never gives his own, merely stating in his next post: But the whole concept of having a metric (he talks about how the old metric was talking about lynching lurkers) is to create discussion and allow for information gathering (something RNG hindered). So why would you put off thinking up a new metric criteria till tomorrow when discussion will already have been going on and information will already have been created. It makes no sense to say I will think of something to create discussion tomorrow when by that time we'll already be discussing. It seems like he's trying to say he's got ideas for us but by the time he says he can deliver on them (tomorrow) we'll have no need for them and thus he doesn't actually have to make good on his promise. I'mma vote first and then wait for you to post more. ##Vote: L Palmar, when you read this, THIS is how you make an argument for L-scum. chaoser, it feels like your whole case on L revolves around the bolded statements you make. In spite of all the other stuff going on in the game right now, your vote is based on L saying that he'll decide who he's going to vote for after there's more information in the thread for him to base it on. Why is waiting until there's more information to base a conclusion on scummy? The town vets I've seen on this site tend to want to watch a thread and see what happens. Prodding inactive players to get their opinions, sure, but mostly just watch. I think there's a reason for that. Town is at an information disadvantage, so jumping to conclusions is quite literally shooting town in the foot. If you absolutely could NOT get L lynched today, who would you want to lynch and why? (And if you say me for defending L, so help me...) | ||
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On December 21 2011 17:15 chaoser wrote: I didn't say I think he's scummy "based on L saying that he'll decide who he's going to vote for after there's more information in the thread for him to base it on". I never said that. I said I think he's scummy because he said it's important to find a new "metric" for this game that is not "RNG" or "lynching lurking" to create conversation in a meaningful way but then promised to tell us what that new metric at a time at which it was no longer useful. This allows him to never make good on his promise of actually contributing to help town. If you notice, most of my reads have the general note of: need more info/would like more posts. So I never said or even implied that waiting until there's more information to base a conclusion on someone is scummy. I even said so at the end of my paragraph on L. If I could not lynch L today then I currently don't know who I would lynch since only his posts have sent up the strongest flares for me. I'd rather not policy lynch and there's still 24 hours left in the day so I'd wait and see on some of my other candidates of suspicion. What is it? I'm not trying to put words in your mouth, I'm trying to understand what you're saying. If by metric you mean "what we should talk about", why do you need L to tell you what to talk about? By metric I assume L means "the factors by which I decide who I'm going to vote for and support a lynch of"..which is still going to be useful tomorrow; more useful tomorrow in my opinion because if he knew and shared that 'metric' today, scum could change their behavior accordingly to avoid votes over the course of today and tomorrow. | ||
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Lynching Lurkers Starring: Palmar In today's episode, we'll take a look at one of the scummiest bastards in the game, Palmar. Chapter 1: L Initially, he took the stance that L was being worthless and had to die. And by had to die, I mean had to be prodded into activity by randomly slinging shit at him most of the day. I called him out for it, because I haven't found much of a problem with L's posts, and because it looked like he was setting up going for the easy lurker lynch. Right before Palmar switched gears, L had a grand total of THREE in-game posts. This means that in spite of everything that's going on, everyone with content in the thread and all the information that's been gained so far, the scummiest person by his estimation has been a lurker. It's worth noting that I defended L's contributions at this point, and I'm not only not scummy for defending one of his scum reads, but not even acknowledged as having said anything to him at all. This is interesting, because the discussion about L's contributions was still going on when Palmar returned to the thread. Rather than comment further on why L is "useless" and should be lynched, he switches gears entirely. Chapter 2: GMarshal He and syllogism agree that GM is very useless. I mean, there's only so much you can do with FOUR in-game posts...but at any rate, again, Palmar is going after the LURKERS here, so GM makes for an excellent target. He concludes that the case on GM boils down to "contributes nothing but Policy Lynches"...nevermind that at the only time in-game that GM has been posting in the thread, that was what was being discussed. That's not important. What's important is that GM hasn't contributed anything to the thread but Policy Lynches. I agree that this isn't the most phenomenal contribution, but keep in mind that this is a game chock full of veterans plus a couple decent newer players. I find it rather hard to believe that GM has 'scummily active-lurked in the thread', which MIGHT justify lynching someone with FOUR IN-GAME POSTS. And it's not as if GM has been derailing discussion with his policy lynches. They're simply all he's showed up to contribute so far. But according to Palmar, that's fucking SCUMMY bro. Why? Why is the fact that GM hasn't come back into the thread halfway through the day scummy? He can't be busy? Why condone a lynch on someone who has almost no information down in the thread when there are so many people in town who have contributed more than GM and have actual information to analyze? He even states that "I expect we can do better than a half-assed policy-lynch D1"...WHILE CONDONING A LURKER LYNCH WITHOUT EVEN ANALYZING ANYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING IN-THREAD!!! He's taking the path of least resistance hoping to snag a few followers so that when he's safely away from the almost inevitable townie lynch today, he doesn't look suspicious. I'm fucking calling it. Anyway, I call him out again because I'm starting to notice a trend. I ask he and syllogism to explain what they mean by useless, because that seems to be what they both consider the majority of the active player-base to be. Palmar responds with another analysis, this time BloodyC0bbler, another lurker Chapter 3: BloodyC0bbler He opens by attempting to diplomatically "play nice" with me, because for some reason, talking to him about the game is "starting to piss him off"...I hadn't even hinted at suspicion of him at this point, I've simply been asking questions and trying to interact with him, townie to "townie". At any rate, he then goes on to describe why BC's ONE post is scummier than the whole thread, excepting GM's Policy Lynches...because that's where his vote is. Like, the arrogance of thinking you can catch scum in as little as 2 posts, when there's so much other information to analyze, is astounding to me. BloodyC0bbler has all of TWO in-game posts in this thread, and one is a drunk post that has literally ZERO content. So he's basing his analysis of his other top suspect off of ONE post. I'm incredulously shaking my head at the screen while typing this just thinking about it. Epilogue I dabble in divination. Sometimes I think I can see the future. I predict that Palmar will be infuriated with my case. That suddenly, I'm just 'bad' all over again, in spite of him having stated IN-THREAD that he feels I've "proven I can scumhunt". I predict that he'll dismiss my case entirely. I also predict that I'll have far more support for his lynch than he anticipates. Time will tell. But I think Palmar is scum. tl;dr Palmar's suspects : Their Post-count L : 3 GM : 4 BC : 2 (1) Rather than scumhunt, Palmar is on a lurker witch-hunt. It's lazy scum play. Palmar admits his scum play is terrible. You do the math. | ||
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##Unvote: Foolishness ##Vote: Palmar | ||
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SLJ, Foolishness, and chaoser. @Palmar Why don't you tell me? I wouldn't want to spoil the surprise for you. | ||
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....a good defense. There could be any number of reasons why scumPalmar would choose GM over Sheth. You provided one already - you have meta on GM and feel you could more easily lynch him over Sheth, a raw newbie in TL Mafia. Perhaps Sheth is your scumbuddy. I have no idea why you chose who you did, but my point is that you didn't say why. You gave 1 reason, that GM is pushing policy lynches for 4 posts almost at the beginning of the day, and later after I cased you claimed to have meta on GM that shows that he's scum. Your point on BC is fair - I took your calling him useless as synonymous with scummy, so I apologize for assuming he was a scumread. As for L, you have been slinging shit at L all day. You commented on GM, but felt the compulsion to agree with Foolishness that L needs to be lynched today before you decided to come play with us. And only now have made a case for GM, with your vote. Your point on lynching players you know is fair, but it begs the question: why haven't you pushed GM all day instead of L, a player you don't know? | ||
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##Unvote: Palmar Palmar are you still the mostest suspicious of GM after he came back and apologized and promised content later? | ||
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On December 22 2011 06:19 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote: ##Vote: Chezinu Working on finals stuff. Consider it a placeholder if you will. Placeholder like a pro. I'm watching and absorbing guys, my reads are all messed up at this point and I'm going to have to do a full reread when I have time (probably at lunch) so right now I'm just keeping current. | ||
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On December 21 2011 10:28 LSB wrote: Well that concludes that debacle wherebugsgo: Greenish read. He sounds far to much like a tunneling townie than a calculated bus. Especially since he grasp at any straws to try to get his push through, rather than abandoning a hopeless case. WBG, do you consider the bolded word in LSB's ultimate read of you post your case to be a slip? He's referring to your case on him as tunneling, why would it be a 'bus' unless he were considering you to be scum making a case on him (who he knows is scum?) I know I argued that vet players don't typically make this kind of slip, but...read it. If he were town, why would he phrase it that way? Why would he not say something like "...too much like tunneling townie than scummy attempt to push a mislynch"? I still don't like the slips you found, but what do you think of mine? The rest of LSB's posts since your case have been pretty bad universally, and I'm ultimately willing to add my token to his kettle. ##Vote: LSB | ||
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You seem to be on the fence about LSB, your post doesn't say much about him other than "I think WBG's case on him is weak, but here's something I found that wasn't in the case"...which it was. Do you know something about LSB that we don't? Or do you suspect something about LSB that prevents you from voting for him? | ||
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No, I wanted your opinion. It looked like a slip to me, and you've proven to be keen on looking for slips, so I wanted your opinion on it. It read to me as an accident...like, he posted what his actual thought process was instead of what his revised, "town"-persona thought-process should have been. I've got you as a pretty strong town read atm, don't fuck it up with paranoia. ![]() | ||
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LSB's filter isn't long. You're familiar with the playstyles of most of the players in the game I'd imagine (at least nominally), could you go read LSB's filter and give your honest opinion of him rather than fence-sit/throwaway-vote? | ||
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I'm also willing to switch to GM. | ||
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Tell me you're getting cold feet when your scum-suspect is not only even scummier than before, but could feasibly get lynched. Tell me that please Palmar. | ||
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Tell me I'm not imagining things guys, go read GM's filter and see if it says ANYTHING to the effect of "I didn't contribute yesterday because I was overloaded at work" | ||
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I'm not the asshole here, you're the asshole. You expect town to believe that you now are "cutting GM slack" when NOT EVEN THREE HOURS ago you were out for fucking BLOOD. What's changed? That he's given lame fucking excuses for not contributing? BULLSHIT PALMAR. That's ridiculous, you know it's ridiculous, and you calling me an asshole for calling you out on it is an asshole move. I'm just trying to lynch scum. You're trying to make me out to be the bad guy for it. Why? Why would you do that as town? | ||
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For my part, I respectfully deny your request. What's stopping ALL of our candidates from just saying "Oh you know, just give me 48 hours to get my shit together" You've been asked several times to reinforce your read on LSB, and in the time it's taken you to post THREE excuses, you could have read LSB's filter SEVEN times because he's posted maybe TWELVE times. "I'm confused" doesn't work in a game full of vets and "I'm tired" doesn't work as an excuse 5 hours from the lynch. Sorry bro, but if you gain more support than LSB, I will be voting for you. I like you as a person. And I appreciate your honesty about being busy. But I think you're scum, and we don't have time to be granting scum asylum because they couldn't be bothered to play. | ||
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I think that GMarshal is scum. First, he comes in with a few pretty inflammatory posts regarding his irrational hatred of hydras and suggests policy lynching them. Now, I find this pretty interesting, because at the time, I was relatively suspicious of SLJ from the whole Chezinu nonsense...and I wasn't alone I don't think. Fast forward. Zero posts from GM occur. During this time, he's too busy to play. Fair enough. BUT, when he gets back, he makes a couple of posts indicating that he's reading the thread. Cool! Like, "Yeah, I'd comment, but I'm not done rereading." and the like. That's fine, right up until this post. On December 22 2011 06:06 GMarshal wrote: Alright, I've finally had time to read the thread. Lets crack this bitch right open. Part 1: The Setup ![]() First of all, regarding the setup. Everyone who is speculating on it, I suggest you go take a gander at Personality Mafia, notice the preponderance of vigilantes over dts. I'm betting this game follows a similar theme in that respect. I think this talk of triggers is preposterous, responsibility is based on actions not words, so expect things like weak medics or suicidal vigilantes, not "a DT that can only check people who have said potato". So stop worrying about "triggers" and such. This is at its basest still a game of mafia. Behave analytically, dont lie and don't derp, and everything will be ok. Bumatlarge's talk of responsibility points is an insane excuse to obfuscate his posting, and thus rather suspicious in and of itself. This is a closed setup, we know nothing, so stop talking or making assumptions based on the title. For all we know everyone is a VT or a time traveling Nordic Jahrl, don't speculate about the setup, since we are probably never going to have any concrete information regarding the setup. I'll say it again, play this as a normal setup. My major suggestion is to not claim, however under any circumstance. I suspect that there is a mafia role that can shoot based on claims, much like the sniper in Zona's Steamship game. Don't adjust your behavior to deal with the setup, if the setup is well designed then playing normally will win us the game, and behaving like morons will end in our quick and unsubtle deaths. So, don't worry about it, and don't waste time discussing it. (part two coming as soon as I'm done writing it) The parts I've bolded are the parts I find the most important. He claims to be done with the reread, and he's confident enough in what he's seen to "crack this bitch right open." The thing that sticks out the most to me about this post is that it looks JUST like the first post in the 'town-meta' link that Palmar provided in his case against GM. I think this is by design. Next, draw your attention to the next bolded statement. WBG, you were all over LSB for his "specific knowledge of the roles in the game.".......it doesn't get more specific than "weak medics and suicidal vigilantes". I mean, I'm relatively new, so the thought of weak medics and suicidal vigs hadn't even occurred to me when envisioning how this would be balanced/setup. But GM specifically mentions those roles as roles to look out for. And, as we've determined from the OP and the nonsense surrounding your case on LSB, the scumteam will get a list of some or all possible roles in the game. I think this is a hell of a lot more indicative of hidden knowledge than speculating that there's an SK, no? Next comes this, his part 2. On December 22 2011 06:55 GMarshal wrote: Part 2: Picking and Choosing. Who to lynch day 1 Fuck it, I was half way through an analysis and realized it was utter shit. Let me just throw down my thoughts on a few players and I'll try to cook up something actually coherent. The major point is that the thread early on is actually painful to read with a bunch of nonsense being thrown around. Chez and bum yelling about triggers and hinting at roles, when really, there is no reason or call to do so. That said, I can see bum doing that as town, and Chez is freaking Chez, although in his defense, I can come up with a reason why town would claim traitor, in fact, I think anyone who has read the OP carefully can come up with a reason. If chez were not utterly insane and had been subtle about it I might have even given him town points for it. LSB: Well, he hasn't come up with a mega plan yet, but I find wbg analysis against him to be quite weak. The fact is I expect better play from LSB overall. One point I didn't see brought up is that LSB seems to be lacking confidence, Town LSB is supremely confident, I don't get that "feel" here. his defense seems ok. I wanted to comment on him since he was a lynch target at some point. SamuelLJackson - Hydra! Kill it with fire! Kill it with fire!. Ok, not seriously. What I find suspicious is that he endorsed a weak case against LSB. The fact that he can't come up with a reason why Chez might softclaim traitor as town is suspicious to me, especially because he says its anti town, and then doesn't do anything about it. Especially lolworthy is how he accuses me of making a stupid case when my "case" is "I dislike hydras, hurr durr", which was an attempt at gauging reactions. In fact I find the fact that he is so upset over it to be something worth noting Kitaman- Hi Kita! Do you guys know whats funny about kitaman27 this game? That he is playing exactly to his scum meta and not actually contributing anything! Here is his filter Read it, what is it about? Lurkers and Sheth, thats all kita seems to talk about. Yet he gets away as "not lurking" because of his 3-4 posts. Compare that to his play in Team Meele were he was active and pushing an agenda of lynching scum, and wham, you have a likely red. Seriously, look at his posts, town kita often asks poignant questions and pushes his objectives, almost always taking stances, while scum kita likes to go for the "soft" lynches in lurkers and trolls while staying well away from the spotlight. Notice how he pushes Sheth, who no one is voting for, likely putting him on the "voting for someone not lynched train" Kita walks in in the middle of Palmar making a major accusation about me to yell about sheth, and then walks away, without taking a stance on it. In fact, reading through his posts, he fails to to take a real stance on anything. Of the players in the game, he is one that jumps out at me as extremely suspicious and worth scrutinizing. Also, Palmar and L, stop yelling at each other, and remember, you have a higher chance of finding scum in the mid activity players, which is a category neither of you fulfills, but which kita does. Between Parts 1 and 2, he goes from a confidence level that allows "let's crack this bitch open" to "my analysis is utter shit". Interesting. Further timidness can be seen throughout the whole post, but the most interesting bit of information is found in his read of LSB...most notably his lack of one. He states that WBG's analysis is "quite weak", yet brings a point "he didn't see brought up" that was actually in WBG's analysis. When confronted about this, GM melts down. He admits that he hadn't ACTUALLY done a full reread, that was more like a 'fuck fuck I should have done this yesterday' kind of read...but you said you were too busy yesterday? How is it that you "should" have done it when there's no way you "could" have done it? He's asked to expand his read on LSB, from several sources, but his only response is "I'm fried, let me live and see if I get better teeheehee". Not today sir. Not today. ##Unvote: LSB ##Vote: GMarshal I find it also interesting to note that Palmar was out for his blood only a few short hours ago...but since he's come in and shown himself to actually BE scum, Palmar doesn't want to lynch him. Instead, concludes that his vote might be better placed on LSB after all, in spite of him telling L "I'm going to get you lynched" | ||
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Okay guys, let it be known that I'm compromising and my preferred lynch is GM at this point. ##Unvote: GMarshal ##Vote: LSB I hope you're wrong about this WBG, because I find myself also wary of chicanery during the building of this wagon. And let it be known that even with my vote, we're like around 35% short of what we actually need to lynch. Basically, I'm ashamed of the activity of this town. For shame, vets. ![]() | ||
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Anyone have any tricks for goading inactive vets back into the game? Like, posting pictures of mustachioed Italian women or something? Anything? | ||
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On December 22 2011 10:34 Incognito wrote: Just a reminder, voting closes in 3.5 hours. Votes must be bolded and in the correct format in order to be counted! On December 22 2011 10:22 Liquid`Sheth wrote: ##Vote: LSB I sped read through the posts. I have a general picture of things going on. I don't feel that we have a great case against LSB, but I'd rather lynch then not. I have feelings, but no hard evidence. I'm one of those guys who needs a bit extra time, and yes I'm being apologetic about it. Sorry I didn't have the proper amount of attention to spend on this today. I will only get better, I doubt its possible to get worse then I've posted today. Unless I was Chezinu... That means you, Sheth. | ||
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Thought you were exhausted GM? Thought you were running out of steam GM? Thought you were surely done for the night GM? | ||
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Yeah, I covered this in my case against GM. But whatever. Hopefully someone smokes GM if LSB flips blue. Surely he's not our only town KP if he's town. | ||
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On December 22 2011 11:51 GMarshal wrote: I came back to see if I died. I'm feeling stupid and lazy, but something this basic is something I know. Interesting that you came back, not only an hour from the standard time in these games, but TWO hours from the end of day in this game. You wouldn't even be dead yet if that WAS your real intention. | ||
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Do tell. | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:06 GGQ wrote: ##unvote: GMarshal ##vote: LSB /cheer | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:11 LSB wrote: Yeah? And why not prefer my plan and have us both shoot someone? It's even better for the town. Or even worse...if you're both wrong we're down 4 townies. It's a terrible plan. | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:13 Liquid`Sheth wrote: I'd say leave them both alive, and only let them shoot each other. Clearly the one who really was vigilante prevails. Or if there both vigilante they both die. o.o; This seems like a solid idea to me. And we could use our lynch today on someone else. Sheth we're freaking out because there's no way to mobilize all the votes. If we falter here, a no-lynch occurs. This is the worst possible case scenario because that gives us no information either way. Please, you're bucking the wisdom of 9 of the best players in TL Mafia, plus me. Get back on board guy. This is NOT an order, this is a plead. PLEASE don't let them no-lynch us. If you need an example of why this is bad for town, please go take a gander through XLVIII...scum won because we no-lynched town to death. | ||
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I have to go home. I shouldn't be long gone from the thread, but if anyone else unvotes THEY ARE 100% SCUM because they're pushing the mafia agenda, which is playing for a no-lynch. Don't let it happen guys. Could you "prod" the inactive players and tell them shit just got real in Responsibility Mafia? | ||
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I know you've spoken with your vote, but you can still contribute...and commenting on the 'activity' of town is definitely not contributing in any way. What are your thoughts on LSB? Do you think he's scum, or are you voting just to avoid a no-lynch? What are your thoughts on GM's counterclaim? | ||
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Can someone help me out with possible scum motivations for counterclaiming like that? Beyond the obvious WIFOM and confusion it would cause, I can't think of a single benefit that would arise from it, save one; there is no solid scum motivation for it, so GM would then be confirmed-but-not-really-town. It's loose, but it's literally all I can think of. Anyone else have any ideas? | ||
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GM is the Traitor. I can see Traitor motivation for GM's actions. I mean, it not only gives GM an opportunity to push through a mislynch, it allows mafia to know for almost certain who the Traitor is for their guess...this bolsters their number (however breifly) and reduces town number. + Show Spoiler [WIFOM/Speculation] + Hell, it's possible that them finding the traitor with a full roster increases their KP right? We don't know what scum KP is, and we don't know how it's calculated. It's possible that scum KP are increased by 1 if they find the traitor with a full roster. Does this make sense? | ||
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On December 23 2011 02:42 kitaman27 wrote: If GM were the traitor, the scum team would still need to shoot a scum to justify him living. I don't think the trade would be worth it, considering GM would then have to deal with having a reason for being alive for the remainder of the game for shooting scum. It looked like LSB was going to be lynched even before the counter-claim, so its not like traitor would have anything to gain by putting himself out there to be responsible for a vig shot tonight. Unless they're just expecting him to die tonight to town KP. How likely do you think it is that scum KP go up if they add the Traitor to their number Kita? | ||
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On December 23 2011 04:08 kitaman27 wrote: The most common formula is #scum/2, rounded up, so it could go up to 3 if the traitor is recruited, but that is of little help if the traitor gets lynched the next day. The one additional kp for one night doesn't seem worth outing the traitor as scum. Would you say that you're willing to lynch GM if scum doesn't die tonight Kita? | ||
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On December 23 2011 05:42 kitaman27 wrote: It would depend what happens. If GM decided not to fire, I would be willing. If he claims to have hit player X and player X survives the hit, then I would probably want to lynch one of the two, unless there was a legitimate reason not to. I'm not sure how we would approach the situation if he is roleblocked. It would probably depend on who he decides to hit and his reasoning. How about you? @GM, is your bullet refunded if you are roleblocked? It would depend on the circumstances, as you said. I'll say however that I'm going to favor lynching in more scenarios than not. | ||
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On December 23 2011 08:33 prplhz wrote: Hey guys I decided to write something about BloodyC0bbler because he only has 3 posts in this game so that should be easy, AMIRITE? BloodyC0bbler His first post isn't very impressive. His second post has already been commented on. It appears to me that he is soft blue claiming in the very first paragraph, by saying that bumatlarge and Chezinu are making sense when they're talking about the setup (which I think they were?). He says it in a way that would make people think that he knows something about the setup too, but not in a very subtle way like he wants everybody to know. This looks like a soft blue claim to me but I have no idea why he is doing it at this point. Also in the first paragraph he says "Their posts illustrate what I am saying.", well dude, you haven't said a thing yet. That is your 7th sentence in this game. The rest of your post doesn't say anything that looks like it is remotely related to what bumatlarge and Chezinu might have been talking about, so this makes little sense to me. His next paragraphs says "everybody sucks, RNG sucks" which has already been commented on by other people, we were beyond talking about RNG at this point, why didn't he just move on if he doesn't want people to talk about RNG? He finishes his post by making a half assed accusation against Palmar for not contributing any original content. Pot kettle black. His third and latest post to date starts by pointing out something that Foolishness already pointed out. He then defends GMarshal for suggesting a policy lynch saying that "hydras ruin games" and "lets kill the hydra because he's a hydra" isn't terrible. This is odd to me because it is a terrible accusation that GMarshal came up with there, just because Protactinium or whatever ruined a game 100 years ago doesn't mean that policy lynching a hydra now is a good idea. It's like he's grasping for straws to defend GMarshal, I don't understand why because the case against GMarshal was decent and the pressure was not misplaced at all. Next paragraph he again goes for Palmar because Palmar pointed out that BloodyC0bbler was addressing something that wasn't relevant to the thread anyway, and by doing this BloodyC0bbler again talks about something that is not relevant to the thread anymore. We are past RNG here, talk about it post game, there was no need to comment and just because Palmar was apparently stupid in thinking that RNG is alright, BloodyC0bbler isn't adding anything to the thread here. It is statements like "Now, I only respond to these posts as he was tossing shit my way for my play.", he feel the need to justify that he's defending himself, dude why don't you just play better and put effort into something that isn't defending yourself? Then nobody will be on your back. In the end he concludes that Palmar is likely town. Then why the hell these first paragraphs? You are going for Palmar for over half of your post and then you say "Yea he's probably town because of that thing Foolishness said". Again, you are not adding anything to this thread, you are only trying to take stuff out of it. Only in the last two paragraphs does he actually do something that isn't counter attacking Palmar for his very accurate comment on BloodyC0bbler's posting. This is alright, and it's a very early committal vote on LSB who was acting weird, the only problem I have is that BloodyC0bbler says "So until he comes out with anything substantial to keep him alive im voting him.", but BloodyC0bbler never returns to the thread. It's like he's placed his vote and then he doesn't really care anymore. If he had been in the thread at any point I believe he would have commented on the whole claim and counter claim thing, that seems like something that might have shaken his belief in this lynch but he doesn't, he just disappears from the thread once he's placed his vote. Overall I also think BloodyC0bbler seems excessively hostile, throwing words like "shit" and "shite" and "asshattery" (which of course is also kinda funny) all over the place. I don't get this weird frustrated hostility, but I feel like it's the same I saw in Curu in Election mafia. I don't know how to interpret this and it's all up for discussion, but maybe BloodyC0bbler doesn't really like being scum, he wasn't like this at all in XLVII. I can't vote right now. Since VisceraEyes is around maybe you can comment on this? Foolishness is around too but I doubt I'll get anything out of him right now. prplhz I have to say...this is impressive analysis. I'd like to add that his 'unless he comes and does something yadda yadda' when he voted LSB was noncommittal and left him free to come in and unvote if he wanted to. But as you pointed out, he didn't seem to care after this post. FoS: BloodyC0bbler | ||
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Ooooo....*brofist* | ||
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My 2 cents. | ||
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But I see what you're saying. It also makes sense considering that the longer the game goes, the harder it is for scum to hide. Be that as it may, I'm looking OFF the wagon, so I'll tell you what I find. | ||
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Here's my problem with that though: BC had literally done NOTHING himself. Like, yeah, okay, BC lurks. He's like to do it regardless of his alignment (see: vet meta)...but his play had been nothing to write home about either. The difference is that Palmar actually had a post in-thread to reference regarding this particular subject to call him out over. All it serves to do is make Palmar look suspicious, because he didn't point out any of Palmar's posts to back up his point, and he didn't vote for Palmar. I agree with one thing though - hostility isn't indicative of alignment alone. What's indicative of alignment is the context surrounding the hostility. There's nothing in the context of BC's cursing or use of the term 'asshatery' that indicates scum OR town to me. | ||
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On December 23 2011 12:44 Foolishness wrote: What are you guys even debating about x.x WBG seems to think that BC is too good to be caught. I'm telling him he's way off. | ||
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On December 23 2011 12:47 BloodyC0bbler wrote: Do you have a reason to be such a raving dick? Everyone has reasons both in game and outside of game that dictate their level of activeness in a game. Currently as it stands I have been insanely busy with work, xmas related shite, family stuff. If you noticed ver made a post about the level of some players was going to be lower than others? Guess what, I was one of those. Before you instantly start jumping on a vet for being "inactive" or "he has done nothing helpful" why don't you take something a host has mentioned and leave the "inactives" alone and go after the people who are being active. Until day 2 arrives you had no real idea of who was in the net of players who were going to be less active for day 1. However you still chose to jump up and down at me as well as other players. Now who wants to see the interesting bit? Check out Palmars Filter. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=295384&user=87086 Who has he analyzed? For a player like Palmar for a day 1 with all the posting has down. He didn't analyze a single player. He FoS or argues with a ton of people, never builds a case then promptly jumps on the lsb wagon. (which I am guilty of voting for the same person, and as much as I'd like to say I'd swap my vote I wasn't here to). This game of yours palmar is nothing like your play from the last game we played together where you were town. You were actively pushing against some people and at least had analysis then, here you have nothing but generalities with no real solid contributions of your own. Especially since he's so proud of that 60% scum-lynch-rate-D1. I feel that sir. I FEEL THAT. | ||
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