EPT/in
Election Mafia
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Jitsu
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 Sheth fightinggggg! | ||
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On December 12 2011 00:32 ProfessorBadass wrote: You sure you want to say no to us? ![[image loading]](http://i42.tinypic.com/2qdxvmd.jpg) Man, you have to tell me where I can get shoes like that. | ||
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Can'tw ait for this game to start. 22:00 for the game start, righright? | ||
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LALiars - I am stuck on this. As stated before, if a Blue has to lie to prevent their potential unveiling, this could be a beneficial thing to town, but, by that time, I think town would be able to use voting in their own way to keep the blue safe. For instance, if a needed blue is revealed, we can simply vote them to Mayor and keep them safe via Bodyguard. We can take advantage of the two protected, voted positions. Am I understanding this wrong? LALurkers - Lurking is also anti-town. In the games I have played (limited experience) mafia who lurk, and are forced to the surface because of a Lurker Policy, can slip up very, very easily. Forcing discussion is never a bad thing. The more that is discussed, the more that can be analyzed by the townie populace, and the better decisions can be made. As prplhz said before, I will not be looking into previous games to gain inflection on how useful someone is. I want to know how the mayor will work for us now, not how the Mayor worked in previous games and how they hope to work now. I still would like to see who the potential mayor candidates stand on policy ideas, as well as some analysis from already fleshed out posts/future posts. | ||
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On December 12 2011 14:51 GreYMisT wrote: One thing that strikes me about radfield this game is how he immediately tied himself to arctocod in his election post. saying that you should vote for me, but his guy is also a good choice, so he will probally get pardoner anyway, but still vote for me. while an argument could be made that he is trying to show all the new players who to vote for, something sets me off about this. He should theorectically know he is town, and therefore should be pulling out all the stops to get people to vote for him, not endorsing other candidates he doesn't even know the aliengment of. Because of this, i am uncomfortable voting him for mayor at this time. I agree with this. Radfield tied himself quickly to another player. I have no scumread on him right now (nothing he has done really screams "mafia" to me) but I think we should hold on voting and bandwagoning this early, regardless. How would it look if Arcotocod flipped mafia after Radfield tied himself too him? Again, not claiming I have scum-vision. Just making a point that "itchy-trigger-finger" voting might be a bad thing. | ||
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On December 12 2011 22:58 Radfield wrote: I think LAL is pretty terrible. It does two things wrong: One, it gives mafia a legitamate topic to discuss early game, when in fact we want them discussing elections and lynches. Two, it gives mafia a reason to push townies who may lie, even when the circumstances are not particularly damning to the townie. Every lie needs to be treated on a case by case basis. Townies lie ALL THE TIME, whether LAL exists or not, so it does not make sense to implement the policy. Not to mention, voting based on policy after Day 1(or even day 1) is terrible for town. We vote on content, not policy. Hydras are only as good as the time they have to invest in the game. I agree that a Palmar/Syllo hydra is a potent force, but I don't think that a hydra by definition is better than a single player. If I was hydra'd onto an inexperienced player, I fail to see how that would be stronger than me by myself. Note on the Pardoner: Every game the pardoner exists people talk about how scary the pardoner is if in mafia hands, but this is NOT TRUE. This is where policy is actually helpful. The pardoner MAY NOT use their pardon, ever, end of story. Even if you are a townie pardoner, and think whomever is getting pardoned is town, you STILL do not use a pardon. The reason for this is that if town reaches a majority, pardoning that player throws town into chaos, regardless of the alignment of the player pardoned. Palmar has stated several times that he will not vote for a player just to get a lynch(in majority lynch scenarios) if he thinks they are town, and this is a good gameplan. But that does NOT transfer over to pardoning players who you think is town(not that palmar thinks this). It is never worth it to break town atmosphere and toss it into chaos in order to save one townie. The Pardoner NEVER uses the pardons. Period. If a pardoner ever uses a pardon, we lynch him the next day(or vig him that night if we are able to). For this reason the pardoner is not dangerous until lylo(or close to it). Only once we get to lylo does the pardoner become dangerous. This is why it is essential that if we have a pardoner of questionable alignment, we get rid of them before the endgame. However before that, on day 1/2 and probably 3, they are not worth worrying about. Lynching lurkers is a somewhat viable strat for Day 1, particularly in a game with many players who are unknowns. However I am strongly against it in this situation. With a mafia KP of 5/2 rounded up, it is hugely beneficial for us to pick off a mafia day 1, and I have never seen a lurker flip mafia on day 1. So I think we should hone our lynch onto active players, even at risk of killing an active townie. The risk vs reward is really high in this setup. This quote doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but maybe I am reading it wrong. The purpose of putting active experienced players into the elected roles is to keep them safe. That's it. There is no reason to keep someone safe who is either highly inexperienced, or only moderately active. Arctocod flipping mafia would say nothing about my alignment in strict terms. One, I tied them to myself on policy, before even seeing them post. Two, the likelyhood of us both being scum is quite low. If anything Arctocod flipping scum makes it more likely for me to be town. Furthermore, if we are both mafia, there is very little incentive to tie ourselves together. Honestly though, at this point the only thing that ties us together is that we are both vets. Correct. I could have easily made my first post as either town or mafia. Basing a read off of the first post in the game is most definitely jumping to conclusions. Arcto, Drpobear I dont know, Gigas so far so good. A little too early for me to be making reads though. Going to address the things Radfield responded to with my post(s): On December 12 2011 22:58 Radfield wrote: I think LAL is pretty terrible. It does two things wrong: One, it gives mafia a legitamate topic to discuss early game, when in fact we want them discussing elections and lynches. Two, it gives mafia a reason to push townies who may lie, even when the circumstances are not particularly damning to the townie. Every lie needs to be treated on a case by case basis. Townies lie ALL THE TIME, whether LAL exists or not, so it does not make sense to implement the policy. Not to mention, voting based on policy after Day 1(or even day 1) is terrible for town. We vote on content, not policy. I don't understand your reasoning on this. Seeing as how you are a veteran, I will bow to your decision however and drop the issue. Arctocod flipping mafia would say nothing about my alignment in strict terms. One, I tied them to myself on policy, before even seeing them post. Two, the likelyhood of us both being scum is quite low. If anything Arctocod flipping scum makes it more likely for me to be town. Furthermore, if we are both mafia, there is very little incentive to tie ourselves together. Honestly though, at this point the only thing that ties us together is that we are both vets. Please don't think i'm accusing you of anything. In my mind, if we were to discover that Player B was mafia, and Player A associated with Player B, than Player A would have a higher likelihood of being mafia. Again, maybe that is my inexperience, but that is how my head would process it. | ||
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On December 13 2011 00:57 Radfield wrote: I'd much rather you understand what I'm saying. Which part doesn't make sense? And just because I'm a veteran doesn't mean I'm right. I bet there are plenty of vets who disagree with my statement on LAL (and they might be right!). I'll be gone for about the next 9 hours. Might be able to pop on around dinner time though. Sure. Hopefully we can clear this up quickly. In my opinion, lying does nothing to benefit the town, save rare circumstances in which a blue town role needs to keep their identity hidden. If we can bring issues to the fore-front with honesty and integrity, we would be able to root scum out quicker than if everyone was throwing off-hand lies. I can understand you're feeling on the case-by-case basis; I think it's pretty self-evident that most things in mafia need to be treated on a case-by-case basis; In this way, Policy is a bad word to use since it shows an unwavering thought process regardless of potential outcomes. Seeing as how we are almost down a day already, and I agree with your statement about giving the mafia a way to tie up valuable time spent discussing this topic, I thought it better to drop the whole thing and defer to you're rational as a vet, and let sleeping dogs lie, as it were. The whole point of bringing policy questions up in the first place was to try to get discussion to try to start some analysis. Maybe it's not a stereotypical move by players on the first night - we can chalk that up to my inexperience if you want, I think it was just my personal way of getting discussion started. Does that clear things up a bit, Radfield? | ||
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On December 13 2011 03:08 Spaackle wrote: For the lurkers in the thread, maybe a couple questions would get some activity: 1. What do you think of the No Pardon, No Exception rule? 2. Give your specific impressions of the campaigns so far, especially the major ones. Remember, the more you get into the game you're playing, the more fun it is! :D I don't beleive I would classify as a lurker, but I will chime in with these posts regardless. 1. I think the No Pardon train of thought is good. However, as I stated before, this blanket "No Exception" thing scares me. Case-By-Case basis, I believe, would be better. If there is a blanket statement that says "if X happens, Y must always be the result," and a situation blindsides us where we will need to use the Pardon power, than I think it could be useful to use. That being said, if you are elected to the role of Pardoner, and you use it freely even once without sufficient cause, expect a vote from me for a lynching. 2. I am going to tie this in with my vote. I feel that Radfield would be the best person to be saved from a mafia kill. I feel that he fleshed out his ideas and I get a town vibe from him, even after we had our banter back and forth, and I give him my support, at least for now. His willingness to defend his position, take the posts and respond to them, while also asking questions himself, has solidified my vote for him. Extra Note: I read a page or two back about posting votes in your thread, especially when it gets down to voting for lynching. I thought this would be a good idea, as well as officially voting in the Vote Thread. I think it might add some weight behind the post if it's all together. I can't speak for everyone, [and I know this is simply filler post] but I just wanted to say that I will probably follow this trend. | ||
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On December 13 2011 06:16 evantrees wrote: 1. What do you think of the No Pardon, No Exception rule? I like it the case of a mayor swung lynch bugs me a little though. have to go out so I'll stop there for now. Something doesn't sit right with me here. Come post, like, 5 minutes after Sheth calls him out for being a lurker, than covers and says he's going out. And I didn't even understand the meat of his post. | ||
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On December 12 2011 14:51 GreYMisT wrote: While it isnt suspicious to agree with someone, notice the way in which he did it. He states that we should hold off voting right now, and then for some reason says "How would it look if Arcotocod flipped mafia after Radfield tied himself too him?" I cant think of a town reason someone would post this, but forcing people vote later in the day, so delay information and give themselves time to come up with votes is a mafia agenda. Also the sentence I quoted seems to be trying to do what radfield said scum would try, which is to make it so arctocod and radfield dont end up in office together. there is no town perspective for posting that. I simply didn't think it wise to start throwing votes around right as the game started. If you think that's mafia agenda, I apologize. I was originally wary of Radfield, but after our talks later, I felt that he was acting generally in a pro-town manner. Also, if I didn't want Arctocod and Radfield to go into office together, why would I already have voted for Radfield as my election vote? Like I said, I was skeptical at the beginning of Radfield's motives, but I have since warmed up to him. GreYMisT wrote: The above post was the next to catch my eye. after reading this post, basically the only thing he is saying really is "i wanted to start discussion" but notice the way he defers to radfields judgment upon being questioned, and then when questioned about that backtracks on himself. In my experience town players know what they believe, and dont have to worry about pleasing others. Overall his posts between and after those have seemed very artifical, cold, and thought out to me. he seems very worried about not offending anyone, and never outright accusing. a town player won't do this. But mafia would Did you read the whole thing GreYMisT? It was a pretty precarious situation. I deferred to Radfield's judgement because we were spinning tires on something that wasn't extremely productive, IE: deciding what a good lynch policy was. Later on, when Radfield asks me to explain my thought process, I did. Not quite following your backtrack upon backtrack upon backtrack. I do know what I believe, which is my ideas on Lynching Liars (which we are again talking about, somehow) but since it was a moot point at that time, I decided to drop it since it was unimportant. I felt that whole situation was wrapped up fairly by the end. As for accusing people, I'd like to get some fleshed out thoughts before posting half-witted accusations against someone, and up until a few pages ago, we were still discussing the possibilities of who the election candidates were. | ||
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This being said, it now makes more sense in my head to NOT vote for two extremely active players who are running for office, rather leaving one out of an office. If they are both scum, and experienced, town is in trouble. Leaving a lesser experienced person in office may be helpful, where if both offices turn out to be scum, we have a better chance of catching one. This was a valid point. You said we shouldn't have had two people in office at once. Cool. In the next post, you even defend your stance that we shouldn't have those two experienced players in office, by saying have someone questionable in office as Pardoner. Ok, so assuming we stick to this play on No pardoning, no exceptions, the only advantage either of the offices gives is immunity on night 1 from getting hit. This just helps us keep the vets alive, am i right? Radfield seems the most organized and willing to work with town, even if I don't like his infrequent posting. I would also like Arc, as having two players is very nice to keep safe (as having double the chance for a slipup if he is scum) Than you 100% switch your stance to wanting both Arc and Radfield in office. Hmmmm, ok...I could see it, but you're calling *me* wishy-washy? Fine, fine.. If Zeks is scum he would have probably made up his mind right away who he wants in office. This makes him seem town as he is trying to feel out the candidates. Also, more have stepped up in this '12 hour' window you've talked about, so I can't blame anyone for changing their minds You stated if Zeks was scum, he would have voted right away who he wanted to vote for in office. It makes him seem town because he wants to try to feel out the candidates. I think that was exactly the same play I made early, trying to get a feeling for the mayoral candidates. According to that line, I should be pro-town. For the lynching scenario: 1. Lynch a lurker, guarantee losing a towny 2. Lynch someone active, either hit scum or lose an active towny. So far i think only greymist has the only analysis that is actually backed by logic Spackle, your analysis on Dropbear is 100% theory, and I would not like to lynch based off that MrZentor's reasoning behind going for Zeks explains nothing either, what does 'having the hydra only helps town' mean? This being said, I'd tentatively vote for Jistu. Worst case scenario, we lose a towny either way. But with the amount of active posters, i think it's worth the shot to try for hitting a red. but than you go ahead and say that the Anti-Jitsu analysis was backed by logic - logic that is counter-acting your own logic. Also, by my count, the following people (up to Comprissent's) to tentatively vote for me are GreyMist, Radfield, Nisani, and Comprissent, in that order. You also say that the lynching scenario is either Lynch a lurker, and guarantee losing a town (I don't see how you can guarantee to lose a town) or lynch an active player, with a chance of either way. How about we look at some post analysis instead of just picking out of a hat? Comprissent is pretty wavy in my eye. Like to see some thoughts from others. | ||
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There are a few people that are accusing me of being mafia. The first to do so was GreYMisT. He came up with some pretty decent things early - but I had assumed that Radfield and I had corrected the reason I had backtracked my claims. I recently posted a scumhunt topic against Comprissent, and he responded to it. I didn't feel it was full-hearted, but it didn't even attract so much of a response other than Comprissent himself. I assume people don't want to look too deeply into it because i'm a "newbie," or because they think i'm scummy. Since Comprissent is slightly wavy to me, I will vote tentatively, especially since I have yet to truly catch up on current events. This is for two reasons. I feel that Comprissent could use a little pressure on him, and I want to see what his response is. Secondly, I have a Psych final tonight and it's been a rough day. I need to have a bit of time to catch up and post some responses before I the night phase, if I make it back by than. I will more than likely keep my Election vote on Radfield. Sheth seems to be floundering a bit when under pressure. Not sure if this is a scum read, and I know it's obviously a re-hash of what people have already said. | ||
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I think a good choice of Pardoner would (incoming bandwagon) Deus or ProfBA, for the same reasons listed. I still think I have some hits on the guy I voted for lynching, and he only posted one, small, lazy defense post. Still think i'm the only one suspicious of him, and not too sold on some of the other targets, save maybe Nisani. Arcto looks at Nisani and votes a Nisani lynch, and than gets silenced/kidnapped, ect. ect. Something to note? Not sure. | ||
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On December 14 2011 12:00 MrZentor wrote: I like how Comprissent comes in and votes one minute before it's too late. -.- Maybe someone will actually get some additional analysis along with mine. :/ | ||
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On December 14 2011 21:26 prplhz wrote: @GiygaS, Jitsu Did you guys have anything to do with the withdrawal? No. I had nothing to do with the withdrawal. For the record, I think if we run into the same situation next time, we should manipulate the votes in such a way so that the 'withdrawn' player still has the second most votes, and our alternate vote is 3rd in the line. That way, if the post is simply shadow games, our desired number two pick is still selected, with a backup ready in the wings in case it's not. I will echo my previous sentiments on Comprissent. He came in and did a good amount of voting at the end of the day phase, yet still has terrible posts and really doesn't seem to be contributing anything except another vote. I know you got Finals man. I do too. As for others, going to look thru filters now. | ||
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On December 15 2011 10:11 GreYMisT wrote: From phone: there are a lot more people in this game who are making more sense than you atm risk. Why ask for medic protection? Especially when you have contributed nothing to the game so far. Maybe he is trying to pull medic protection off of someone that would be more heavily influencing in the game? "Protect me, protect me!" ***mafia hit more useful player***. Maybe. + Show Spoiler + On December 15 2011 09:44 VisceraEyes wrote: Arcto made it pretty clear that he didn't know who it was from - asking everyone to 'pretend to know what he's talking about' so he could determine who sent it. Okay, I see what's happening now. Might as well address this right now, before someone starts a train on me. Since GiygaS already stated that it was him, I felt that trying to get Arcto the proper information at that time would have been a fairly important result of whatever was on his mind. Because of this, I blatantly lied in the post (totally against my earlier post) of Lynch all Liars (don't want to get back into it) to confuse the mafia up a bit. Yeah, I backtracked myself. I think the positives would have outweighed the benefits. | ||
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MrZentor claimed blue role yesterday, but never really came out and said what it was after it became "useless." Not sure what the role was/could have been, but when he was called on it, I think he just ignored the post and faded out? I would like to see Arcto/GigyaS for the new selections. My reasoning? We are all pretty much aware that GigyaS is town, because of his role. The question was is Arcto playing the role of town up? It could be possible. I believe Arcto is town, at least right now. So at this point, they will be getting my two roles for elections. | ||
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Hey risk, just wondering, but who do you think would be good to look at for possible scum-evidence, and why do you feel that way? | ||
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Conversely, you bandwagon-ed against me from GreY's post without any analysis of your own, pretty sure. At least, I just checked the filter, and you pretty much said "Yeah, player A and player B would be good lynches I feel. That being said, let's lynch Jitsu." Logic. | ||
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On December 16 2011 03:57 Comprissent wrote: Yes it was something I immediately recognized and did not vote for you because of that. There ended up being no solid analysis for anyone day1, and we ended up lynching a blue, no surprise Also, will you all please spell my name right >.< Than you go and bandwagon vote lynch someone else, a blue. | ||
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On December 16 2011 08:19 GreYMisT wrote: Give me a few minutes, still looking through some of day1 to see what I can find. The problem is i feel the majority of the actives are town, and that the scum is mixed in with the townie lurkers. This is making it rather hard to find them to be honest. I feel almost the exact same with this. However, I also feel that there may be one, possibly two strong mafia players who are semi-active, and who are experiences, to lead them. There is no way the mafia is staying this well hidden without prompting, and making such good calls and well-played deceptiveness if they were all newbs. I think maybe one strong veteran mafia player would fit the bill. I think the same question could go back at you Radfield, and I actually want to see Arcto's response to this as well. Who do you both feel would be good Top 3 Lynches, and why? As for my election post, I feel GiygaS had hit the nail on the head. I will be voting for Arcto for hopes that he will get a Secretary of Defense roll. I hope everyone can coordinate properly to get those two players in power roles. | ||
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On December 16 2011 08:39 GiygaS wrote: Amazing when you come out of the woodwork as soon as you're accused. Echoed. Always seem to come back at the right time. You even admit to lurking. Don't. Lurk. | ||
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I think Comprissent is mafia. For this reason, I will post my previous case on him. http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291720¤tpage=23#460 In addition, I feel that he ***STILL*** hasn't contributed anything except tagging on posts at the end of things and filler posts here and there. Now, between TNTP and Refallen. I was looking through Refallen's posts, and something hit me. On December 14 2011 12:00 Refallen wrote: O ractually, nevermind, 5 pages updated since I last posted or something. Seems like everyone wants to stay on the spaackle wagon to get a lynch so I'm willing to do that as well. Obvious bandwagon is obvious. Doesn't help his case. On December 14 2011 11:12 Refallen wrote: Oh wow, sorry I thought the day ends in 2 hours like in XLVIII, was trying to reread the thread. Will skim through and vote I guess. And yes, why do you think I'm mafia rad? This caught my eye. He says something along the lines of "day ends in two hours." So, he comes into the game almost right after Arcto is forced out of the election to "Skim Read" over the thread again...I feel that the time he picked (two hours until deadline) and the fact that the 'Election Block' ability of whatever we assume is the mafia equiv. to District Attorney had to have happened within two hours of the day ending. Note: He also seems to have to "speed read" to catch up on alot of things, yet is always present when his name is called into question. So I would say Comprissent and Refallen. Five Players to Save: Arctocod, GiygaS, Radfield, Zentor, and ProfBA. Reasoning: GiygaS, Zentor are pretty much confirmed town. Arctocod, in my eyes, is leaning extremely town. I feel you are in this same section, Radfield. ProfBA because we voted him in as pardoner, and I feel that if he was mafia, you and Arcto would be able to catch him near the end, and we voted him into Pardoner for a reason. Since he is unable to pardon himself, if you 5 were remaining, I think it would end in the towns favor. | ||
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On December 16 2011 09:19 nyczbrandon wrote: Refallen looks more suspicous of the two, but both havent posted much I can use. I think they might both be town. Refallen has posted that he though that ProfB might be scum for random lynch, but later on posted that he did not look like it much anymore. TotallyNotTwoPeople hasn't done much except going hard on Mr.Zentor for some reason. What the hell kind of analysis is this? Your either not trying, or really like lurking. | ||
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He uses his ability with a little under 2 Hours left to use it, than posts how he "thought he had two hours remaining to put votes in and has to make a hasty decision. Regardless, I think it's funny how you came to his defense rather forcefully, no? Also, you seem pretty accurate with the timing on the ability. How did you know it was used roughly around 2 hours and 15 minutes, to the minute? Maybe a scum player said "Use that ability, there is only 15 minutes left" and it stuck in your mind? | ||
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Maybe evantrees will come to your rescue. | ||
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I also think a 3rd candidate would be a good choice, but not at the loss of time deciding on who to lynch. My vote is still Comprissent, but it might change depending on what the day brings. | ||
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On December 17 2011 02:15 Refallen wrote: I'm not sure if that'll change my decision. When the pardon is used, I think Mafia automatically gains, since now we've wasted a Day cycle while Mafia can go on killing people at night. If someone were to suggest ProfBadass to use his pardons as a way to prove his innocence, I wouldn't sign off on that. I'll probably still vote ProfBadass, based on Arc's analysis. Why would we need ProfBA to use his pardon as a way to prove innocence? We voted him in as the pardoner. Nothing is saying he isn't the mafia alignment though. | ||
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So. What did you do, Curu? | ||
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The power to silence is, in my opinion, anti-town. A staple to finding mafia is open discussion. Anything that shuts someone up can be considered anti-town. What point would there be for a town role having a silencing effect? To shut up a mafia player? The town would just lynch him. There's no real reason for town to have a silence. As for the District Attorney, let's say that he feels that someone going to be voted into the position is mafia. "Quick, someone reset the vote count so we don't give mafia more power." I could see that a lot more than I would see the usefulness of a town silencer. That being said, ProfBA (Curu) goes absolutely apeshit when he gets pressure on him and blows his special. What the fuck? If he was is town, how is that playing to win the game at all? Conversley, if he really was town, why didn't he turn someone's mouth off that was more active, IE: Palmar, GiygaS, ect. No, he chose the easy way out. Turn his own silence on himself so he had an excuse for not defending himself, instead of coming up with anything legitimate to do it for him. That makes absolutely no sense to me. Sheth? | ||
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On December 17 2011 06:15 Comprissent wrote: Excuse me? I am trying to defend what? I have not even mentioned which way my lynch vote would go. As of now, professorbadass is an easy lynch since he has given up for town. I don't want him on my side anymore if he won't try to win for town. If he's scum, all the better he's gone If you are bothering to read the thread, you'll find Greymist did the exact same thing as me a few posts later, simply analyze the town hits. Go by your own logic and suspect him too, why don't you Every time I post you try to tie me into something that's completely untrue. I don't think you're mafia, because you would have given up your attempts to bandwagon me a long time ago when you realized nobody else is picking it up. Try to read posts with an open mind before reading them under the assumption i'm scum. Because honestly, if you keep doing it this way, you're not going to help us catch any mafia. I never say didn't pick up on it. I also didn't say I wasn't suspecting him. The accusation was against you. If it bothers you so much, just ignore me and keep looking for mafia. I do read posts from an open mind, and I'm also tunneling you for a reason. And for the record, I am trying to help catch mafia. I think your words for voting for ProfBA is a good one. But keep in mind, we vote to find/lynch mafia - not to rid ourselves of useless town players. Vote based on that, not based on the inability to play as a townie correctly. | ||
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On December 17 2011 06:26 Comprissent wrote: An accusation that didn't make sense whatsoever, as I wasn't trying to defend anyone. And just for the record, I have been trying to ignore you. But your posts *analysing* me have been completely useless and unhelpful for trying to scumhunt. So useless that I thought it was necessary to finally call you out on it. You are not reading my posts from an open mind, since you have already decided to be suspicious of me. Good! So the pressure is working, than. | ||
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Look at the two types of abilities. One is a silence ability, which has little to no help for the town. Why would stifling conversation for the town be a good thing? Conversely, town could have some use for nullifying election votes on someone. Remember, it takes a good amount of votes for a first and second place election to be swayed a certain way. If, somehow, the mafia got to a point where they could sway an election how they wanted, town players could utilize that skill to even the odds. Silence has a much more anti-town connotation than pro-town. | ||
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On December 17 2011 12:43 Radfield wrote: OK, so we're obviously lynching curu. Silencer is a fairly scum-favoured tool, and using it on oneself is not particularly town. Not to mention, did anyone else read that convo between Erandorr and Curu and think it was a convo between two townies? I did not. In other news, I am here to save the day! I have the power to enact a double lynch, and as such will be using it today. Curu is obviously locked in, so lets kickstart on who else we want to lynch  Bum, your posting is ridiculously terrible this game. I would guess half your posts so far I actually have no idea what your talking about. Have you filtered anyone? Have you read any post more than once? You just feel like your putting in about 10 minutes a day of effort. I realize you're homeless and everything, but don't the public libraries have computers you can use? This is actually remarkably damning. I haven't checked the time-stamps yet, but what possible reason would a townie have for speculating that it was an ability that needed to be used at least 2 hours before the day. I NEVER would have gotten close to assuming that. It was obvious it was scum driven, but 2 hours? That's incredibly specific and accurate. MrZentor, when you are around please let me know. I have a few questions for you. Rad, wasn't that the same point that I brought up against Refallen that was defended by a few other players? | ||
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Sorry about my lack of activity today guys. Had two seperate Christmas parties to go to tonight, and am actually going to hit the sack. I believe my votes are in for today, so we should be all good. Nice pick on Bumatlarge. VE, all you baby. ~Jitsu | ||
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I also have a strong feeling with Sheth. He was pretty hard up for defending Curu after he went apeshit and blew his power. Than when he realized he wasn't going to turn anyone to his cause in defending him, he jumped. A side note: Sheth was heavily defending Curu up until GreyMist and I "spoke logically." + Show Spoiler + On December 17 2011 05:46 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Also, ProfessorBA quit being a retard. Don't let just arctocod's rambling ruin this game please. It appears you have used some sort of power.. Should you tell us anything so we know whats going on please Prof? Arctocod shut up on lynching him please. Its getting old and stunting EVERY OTHER thing in this thread. On December 17 2011 05:46 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Giygas you think thats a mafia power? Please tell me why you think that other then just Arctocod said it would be? Freaking sheep. On December 17 2011 06:17 Liquid`Sheth wrote: Jitsu + Greymist Yay logic. You two make me happy. #Vote: ProffessorBadAss This is when Sheth blew up during the primary CuruGate scandle. He was employing a lot of different strategies, trying to convince people to get their votes off of Curu. Pleading with Arcto to ease pressure, asking everyone to think logically and seek reason...than when GreyMist and I "spoke logically" he turned. I think he realized no one was going to deny that Curulynch. | ||
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On December 19 2011 00:20 Arctocod wrote: I don't really feel like filtering Sheth either right now. I might have been tunnelling a bit based on the assumption I can expect him to make sense. He did suddenly turned rather hostile when we started pushing for Curu's lynch and then did another 180 pretty quickly after Greymist+Jitsu explained the obvious to him. /syllogism Ahhhh, shit. I type up a rather eloquent post that you ninja in three lines. Damnit. :[ | ||
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On December 19 2011 17:34 cascades wrote: And this was why I emphasize so much on posting cases. That goes for everyone. Now we lost Arc's reads and cases against scum because he was lazy. Granted, it was due to a horrible mistake on Giygas part. Of all the people he gave it to, he gave it to the only person who couldn't use medic role. Activity should pickup when filters are restored. You really miss it when it's gone. The pot calling the kettle black. Don't like it. Also, i'm somewhat curious. Isn't strongly pushing for modkills somewhat scummy play? I could care less if those players are modkilled. But if I was mafia, I could make a case that I would want players modkilled so I didn't have to do it myself. Even if they do get replaced, it's much easier to convince others to vote for them. We've had a large amount of time to pick apart their play. Not in the replacements case. Even as far as VE goes, I couldn't figure him out at all until he suicide killed the Godfather. | ||
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We watch Radfield, the Town comes out ahead in all situations. We get the medic/mayor for at least another day, OR we get another mafia member if they hit Radfield. I can't see any negatives. | ||
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Opposed to watching someone else: GiygaS's role is wasted. Whoever is elected to Chief of Police is saved one night. Than the Prankster can be healed by the medic, assuming we have a medic laying low. On top of that, Radfield still has his medic ability since he was role-blocked, and if we can keep Radfield alive another night, it only increases his chance of catching scum. Now let's say we choose to watch someone else. We have to decide who to watch, first of all. The odds of that player getting hit are drastically less than that of watching Radfield, since he could possibly be the most potent scum-hunter left. (Sorry; don't really know the abilities of the other townies, just the reputation of Rad). So, I look at it like this. Scenario 1: We protect Radfield, and have the ability to extend our ability to keep hunting for Scum extremely effectivly, and have a moderate chance of catching a mafia if they try to kill him. We keep all of our power-roles and continue to look for mafia. Scenario 2: We protect someone else. We have a very small chance to luckily catch a mafia hitting a player not Radfield. We potentially lose a player with two roles on him, as well as a scum-hunter. Seems pretty obvious Scenario 1 is the way to go, to me at least. | ||
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On December 20 2011 06:10 Refallen wrote: I really disagree about Cascades, I actually have a pretty strong town read on him. Him saying that he would lynch spaakles if first night repeats itself is, imo, not scummish in any way. Rather, it is a townie sentiment, that even though he flipped blue, at that time, he was probably the best lynch available to us. Also, I don't see how suspecting Radfield = anti-town, as Greymist tried to make a case on. I suspected Radfield in the very beginning of the game, and GreYMisT tried to make some points on me. That reminds me. How come whenever Comprissent is pressured, he feels obligated to post, yet when he's not the object of conversation, he doesn't post. Ever. Hmmmm. | ||
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Why are you two so buddy-buddy? | ||
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On December 20 2011 08:21 Liquid`Sheth wrote: I don't think hes Mafia so I'm trying to point out if someone isn't using logic when making a case against him. If it was a case based on logic I'd definetly be cool for killing him, but I'm worried atm. Well, I think Radfield hit on it before. The mafia count right now is 14 Town: 3 Mafia. The Mafia is starting to feel the noose around the neck, so they are doing anything possible to stay alive and keep the noose from getting any tighter. Now, this is where I sit. I believe that there is a slew of evidence against GreY. I think that he might, in all likelyhood, be a mafia player. My question is why are you doing everything you can to keep people FROM voting for him? This massive mindset of "Vote GreY" is really picking up speed. Why do you think he is innocent? What makes you think he's NOT guilty, to counter why he is guilty? The noose tightens. | ||
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On December 20 2011 09:34 TotallyNotTwoPeople wrote: @Jitsu I would like to hear your current top 3 or 4 scum reads, with explanations please. Please focus on giving new details to any case you may be making, rather than rehashing things people have already brought up. Up until about 5 minutes ago, I was pretty convinced about Sheth, GreyMist, and Comprissent. Things, as obvious, have changed, at least for the first two. I will definitely be going through filters and such again, although, I still believe Comprissent is mafia, as I have all game. Slightly off-current-topic, when you guys play, I gather you make an excel spreadsheet to log your opinion on people. Do you usually put anything else relevent other than your current read on them? I think I might have to do that. | ||
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On December 20 2011 23:24 Radfield wrote: Evantrees, can you please claim in full. Greymist, you should claim in full as well. I'd like to lynch comprissent today. He has done nothing all game, has consistently promised future analysis/activity but has continually not done so. Please do. He has been my number one for a great long while now. In response to [TNTP] asking for my top three, and explanations. 1st place: Comprissent is Top on my list. I posted a detailed case about him in the beginning after GreYMisT accused me of being mafia. Not sure if anyone commented on it or even read it. Since then, he only comes in to defend himself and keep people from lynching him. He posted one piece of analysis, which I didn't really see as helpful anyway. However, I acknowledge i'm tunneling him pretty hard, so maybe that's why I think he's useless/scum. 2nd place: My next suspect is nyczbrandon. Again, hasn't posted much and shows actually to be pretty useless. Might be a townie, but I think he's mafia trying to lay low and not garner suspicion. Looking through his filter, there actually really doesn't look like anything that stands out to me other than the fact that nothing stands out to me. 3rd place: This spot is the void that was Greymist. As of now, it has been replaced with Deus-Ex-Mafia. For an experienced Hydra, he hasn't contributed almost anything in the way of solid analysis of any one player, and just keeps asking other peoples opinions on what they think of other players. Looking at everything, I also think he has done a lot to divert attention attention to other players. Right now we are at a lull looking for people, but instead of asking others opinions, he should be looking for his own and giving his own speculations. With that being said, I still feel Comprissent is a strong-mafia read. Look, Comprissent is so scummy, he must be afraid of walking near pools for fear of falling in. He never contributes to town discussion, save to shed the spotlight and put it on someone else. He never posts except to defend himself, and than when discussion moves to someone else, he's back to sitting in the shadows. There are alot of lurkers in this game, and all of the have equal chance of being scum, but Comprissent is the strongest read for me. Watch, guaranteed he will come back within the next two pages and post some long winded counterattack against me trying to, yet again, divert attention from himself. Start. Posting. ##Vote: Comprissent Come at me, bro. | ||
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Let's make up for it during next day. | ||
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On December 21 2011 13:07 GreYMisT wrote: I know there was someone posting that they thought nycz was town, if someone could tell me who that person was that would be awesome. I still think cascades is scummy, but I'm going to look over jitsu again, I have not visited his thoughts for a while. I figured that if I was wrong on that call, I would be looked at. Hopefully you find townie confirmation and we can continue looking for scum. On a side note, I would hope that the Vig not waste a KP on me and hopefully just target a mafia. I will look through posts again, although, I don't think my word will hold much weight anymore, though. | ||
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On December 21 2011 13:25 TotallyNotTwoPeople wrote: That one read has little to do with the suspicion on you. Your overall game presence is much more important than one incorrect tunnel. I read through your filter 3 times during this game day, and no, it wasn't to help build the case on Comprissent, it was to see if I should be building one on you. As for the weight of your word, if you build a solid case, it will be able to stand on its own. Meh, I thought my case on Comprissent was pretty solid...i'm actually legit bummed. I thought I was actually on to something. Fuck. Oh well. Time to hit the hay. I'll see if I can come up with a better scumread than the last. | ||
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Just read CWave's filter. Nothing stands out to me as scum. He was calling people out earlier in the game, and it seemed like he was just following the wave a bit later, especially with nyczbrandon. He jumped on the nyczbrandon lynch after my post my Top 3 Post, and seems to have not scum-hunted like he was actively doing. I saw a post where he was going after Radfield a bit, a little bit after I put a bit of pressure on his mayoral run, but after that, nothing really stood out for me. | ||
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So that's two mafia left. | ||
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On December 22 2011 12:32 Radfield wrote: are you one of them Jitsu? No. If there is doubt, hopefully I will do a better job scumhunting than Comprissent. | ||
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On December 22 2011 13:26 TotallyNotTwoPeople wrote: I'm assuming this is a scum power, but just in case, anyone want to claim being responsible for this secret ballot nonsense? @Zeks, I am fine with that setup for the election. Will be casting my election vote for Radfield. So, for the lynch: cwave, cascades, and jitsu, how is everyone feeling about these three? I'm going to reread filters again, but they all seem like perfectly good targets to me. Now to see which seems the most likely to flip red... I'd be willing to entertain a handful of other options if Radfield or Zeks wishes to pursue others. For the sake of arguement, what's your suspicions against me? | ||
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Oh well, I guess it gives me 48 hours to find someone better to lynch, then. Night guys. | ||
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On December 23 2011 12:01 TotallyNotTwoPeople wrote: Deus and Cascades, I would still like to hear your claims. We also have only 24 hours left to decide our lynch. I would prefer to lynch into the group of Cwave, Cascades, and Jitsu. Other opinions on the matter? I asked you before; I'll ask again. Why are you so gung ho about getting me killed? You have yet to explain your case. | ||
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On December 23 2011 12:26 TotallyNotTwoPeople wrote: ...wtf are you talking about? The closest you have come to accusing known scum is your soft accusations on Sheth. Now add to that the fact that we presumably know all 5 scum roles and that none of them are vanilla, and you have claimed to be yet another vanilla town, which past flips indicate are a rare breed. You are still not my strongest scum read, but the remaining suspicious people are not very numerous. I would be quite surprised to find any scum outside of this group: 1. jaj22 4. DEUS-ex-MAFIA 8. Refallen 9. Cwave 12. risk.nuke 18. Jitsu 24. cascades And as I am sure you're aware, a few of those people look better than the rest. We also may have a way to verify refallen's vet claim if zeks has another shot. So, you're saying your scum-read on me was the fact that I tunneled a Townie who barely contributed, and flipped Green, than that I soft-accused Sheth. And because you assume i'm lying about being Vanilla Town is a pretty bad reason to think i'm scum. Regardless - 24 hours left. Time to find a decent mafia-possibility. Who are you're top two scum reads out of that list, seeing as how there are only two left. | ||
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On December 24 2011 00:41 DEUS-ex-MAFIA wrote: and the rb is dead. + i can save rad another night with my watcher ability. On December 19 2011 23:31 kitaman27 wrote: If the police chief wishes to use his ability, it must be used night three | ||
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On December 24 2011 01:02 DEUS-ex-MAFIA wrote: ah fuck i thought i have another check in the pipeline... You missed the clarification? | ||
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@Rad, do you think the fact that Sheth was asking my opinion on CWave meant anything? Now that i'm thinking about it, he might have been asking people about our opinions on CWave to see if CWave was doing a good job at hiding, no? | ||
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On December 24 2011 02:57 jaj22 wrote: You were tunnelling Comprissent and now that he flipped green, there's not a whole lot else positive in your filter. However I think your original case against Sheth looks pretty good now: http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=12817121 So unless there's a massive scumslip in the next few hours I think we should hit Cascades or Cwave today. Ideally Zeks has a vig shot left and can clear up the other one tonight. We miss-lynched on Day One as well, so you decide to come after me because of a miss-lynch on day 3? AND there are no other reasons? That's a bullshit case, and you know it. I was tunneling him all game - in my eyes, for good reason. I'd assume that since other people voted for him, they should be lynched as well according to your logic, am I right? Vote Electing Radfield. Still deciding who i'm going to vote lynch. | ||
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On December 24 2011 03:08 TotallyNotTwoPeople wrote: Hey Jitsu - What's your read on Deus? Still the same. Not sure on him. I think any decent veteran player (or newbie, even for that matter) would have picked up on a role post by a mod (note the bright blue letters) about how the mechanics of their role works. IE: How they had to use the Watcher on Night Three. I think? he used his watcher ability on Radfield. I think the fact that two people are posting is really screwing me up. + Show Spoiler + On December 23 2011 02:02 DEUS-ex-MAFIA wrote: i dont understand your last paragraph... who do you want to lynch and who do you want to elect? and dont answer with a question. i want rad and zeks #1,2 and you lynched, not only you just posted again without content!!! On December 24 2011 01:16 DEUS-ex-MAFIA wrote: I mean I'd be a great success for scum to get radfield or myself lynched at this point of time. right now I still believe that our slow methodical strategy to narrow down the potential scumteammembers by confirming one townie after the other and lynching the questionable reads is the optimal strategy. That's the reason why I am not too sad that nycbla and comprissent are dead. Two completely different ways to post. It's like Dr. Jekyll and Mr. Hyde. I'd like more contribution, since he is trying to be so vocal, in finding reasons to Lynch people. Saying "Cascades is mafia" and not having a reason doesn't make me want to vote Cascades. It's a veteran player trying to take advantage of bandwagon voting. On December 23 2011 17:35 DEUS-ex-MAFIA wrote: I am vt and cascades is goon. We should have lynched him yesterday. I am sorry that I let you guys lynch comprissent. Not very convincing. | ||
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On December 24 2011 03:19 jaj22 wrote: No, that's not what I meant. Comprissent was scummy as hell, but green, so your tunnelling makes sense regardless of whether you're town or scum. It makes you a null read, bar the anti-Sheth post. There are so many confirmed or near-confirmed townies that you're probably around #4 in most people's lynch-target lists. If you don't like that, I'd suggest posting some fresh analysis. Ohhh, alright. So let's recap; I tunnel a guy that is acting scummy, who happens to flip green. Than I post an Anti-*Player* post about a guy that eventually flips Red. Fuck it! Lynch him anyway! | ||
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On December 24 2011 03:29 TotallyNotTwoPeople wrote: You decided not to bother with that I guess? Lol. You asked for it, so here it is. Wasn't done, but i'll post what I have. | ||
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dosen't seem like he's showing any fear, which I think is protown. Kind of like Sheth, he's been pretty active about asking people to post cases and will follow his own lynch targets instead of sheeping people. That's the feeling I got from him. (Also since we're both from Singapore it's highly likely that he's asleep and won't be able to defend himself and for the past 8 hours, since it's early morning here.) Here, Refallen says that Sheth was acting pro-town, by doing a fair amount of things. He says that he got the same read of pro-town because of the same things Sheth was doing. Regardless of this, however, right after the Day post where Sheth dies… On December 22 2011 12:34 Refallen wrote: Was pretty suspicious of Sheth and made my feelings known. When/how did you make you’re suspicions of Sheth known? It’s pretty clear, a few posts ago, that you said you viewed him as Pro-Town. Radical change of thought with no evidence between the two. Was it the fact that he was lynched, and you were trying to distance yourself from him? Earlier the in game, he was lurking pretty hard, and than came out of the wood-work to vote before peaceing for a bit again. He made the excuse of time zone differences – time zone differences? The day cycles are 48 hours long. There’s plenty of time to do something and make a valid point/post/vote. You just hopped up on the bandwagon that first day… ProfessorBadass (15): Arctocod, DEUS-ex-MAFIA, Liquid`Sheth, Refallen, -Liquid`Sheth, GreYMisT, VisceraEyes,Comprissent, Liquid`Sheth, Jitsu, GiygaS, zeks, evantrees, cascades, MrZentor, nyczbrandon, Radfield And the second day… Comprissent (8): Radfield, Jitsu, evantrees, zeks, -zeks, TotallyNotTwoPeople, MrZentor, zeks, Refallen, jaj22 And the third day… Actually, out of all your posts, it’s either agreeing/disagreeing with someone, looks to be repeating what someone else already said, or not really saying much. He picked it up after the Sheth post, but than it pittered out into nothing. For instance: I'm fine with you all shooting me if that's what it takes to prove my town status but I rather try to defend myself here rather than make vet waste a shot on me, since when I survive, there's still the possiblity of me being a mafia vet. What? You either get shot and prove your town, or survive and possibly be a mafia vet? Refallen’s slid down on my spreadsheet a piece or two. After that I checked out cascades, because of Refallen’s constant assurance that Cascades was town. I read through cascades whopping two pages of Filter, but even after all of it, he gives me a read of town. I think, actually part of it, is the fact that he has a lot of the same reads on Deus that I do. Re: I really like his most recent post. He’s calling out for Deus to respond to him, and I would like to see the answers. Right now, the bottom three is pretty murky because of the last remaining players, but it includes Refallen and Deus. | ||
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On December 24 2011 05:14 DEUS-ex-MAFIA wrote: Now I am going to make one ragepost at this complete idiot cascades: You didn't do anything this entire game. You didn't post a single analysis all you did was strange trolling. I don't think your "jokes" are funny, e.g. this "hopefully mafia will kill all the vets for us?!" Basically your negative attitude is extremely bad for us. If you're town, you shouldn't take my attack on you personal and don't just make a case on me, because I made one on you. I don't know if you're just an extremely bad townie or scum. What is this by the way: "And why? Because of lazy setup reasoning. Well 20% of players are mafia, so 1/5 vets = mafia! We already caught the allocated number of scum vets which is Curu. Does this setup make sense in such a vet oriented game? So basically that poor mafia vet screws up/ goes inactive, and the rest of mafia can just GG? They stand almost no chance of getting someone in an elected position (unless they happen to have way to demonstrate they are town?) Oh wait, we already saw all of the mafia powers with today's secret ballot that no one is claiming, none of them are viable for faking a confirmed townie. Those that are "semi-viable" have town counterparts that they can just easily counterclaim." I don't understand the entire paragraph. Are you claiming scum right there? Are you pissed because you had "only" Curu in your team and he screwed up? Hey! it's not my fault that the setup is like it is. Talk to kita if you have any problems with that. I know, that I am town, I saw Palmogism flip and Radfield is nearly confirmed for me because of the roleblockaction and all that stuff. Curu was red, bum was red. These flips only endorse my earlier theory that there were 2 experienced players in the scumteam and the other experienced players are town. That's at least the situation from my point of view. Screw you with you shitty case on me. Also Risk. You two complete idiots just ignore all my efforts to win this fucking game. FOR TOWN. Look at what happened in this game so far. Do you really think I wouldn't yell at sheth in the scumQT if he's buddying me like that? Do you really think I would have been afk when they blocked Palmogism? Whatever. I want to talk about the so far claimed roles. As radfield pointed it looks like we have a lot of blues. TNTP has a pretty scummy ability. One of the remaining scumteammembers has this kidnap-ability they used day1. Maybe one of the scumteam also has this ability and he can't counterclaim against TNTP now. Consequently I don't think TNTP is scum, because as scum with this role, there is a high chance in this setup that some badass has the same role as townie and you have to trade 1v1. Right now, that's not the optimal play. Ahm I am still on the run, Lynch is in about 7.XX hours. I'll figure out my favourite for tonights lynch in the next few hours when I have time. It's a little bit difficult on that tiny screen, but okay, someone has to put a little bit of work in that game and not just accuse others if they accuse them. idiotic cascadees Thank God. This was convincing for me. | ||
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On December 24 2011 07:59 risk.nuke wrote: Dues you have absolutely no reason or right to be upset. How you have the nerve to blame us for pointing out things in your posts is straight up incredible. Sorry for my Jitsu post never coming up, surprise christmas stuff got in the way. I don't know if I'll be back again tonight. E-Vote: Radfield L-Vote: Cascades Sigh. I was looking forward to it. | ||
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I'm still on Radfield. I'd assume everything is still giood. | ||
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It certainly would help if people at least voted. | ||
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On December 24 2011 23:29 Refallen wrote: deus, no I don't. I just think jitsu is being really suspicious now, especially with his last few posts (leaving a vote on me because discussion has died down? totally ignoring TnTP's points on me too, btw.) I'm not DT. I just think jitsu>cascades in scumniness right now, though definitely cascades will be a good shot too. Sigh. I put a vote on you in lieu of not voting anyone else, because I wasn't sure if I would be back, and I didn't really feel Cwave was a mafia, but it was more of a gut instinct than anything. I believe the term is OMGUS, isn't it? | ||
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On December 25 2011 01:10 DEUS-ex-MAFIA wrote: on jitsu topic, bad scum or bad town votes claimed blue in this situation. More likely bad town, since bad scum has teammates. Whatever. Right. | ||
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XMas is here. Everyone have a good one with families. Going to be busy maybe until tomorrow. Have a good one! Happy Holidays | ||
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There is customarily post-game analysis after a game ends, right? | ||
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As for Hydra's, I think in a normal game of Mafia, it would be ok. But as you said in your post, having twice the popularity in one person really nullifies the ability of other people to be elected if they have no reputation to play with. I think it was an awesome mechanic, especially seeing how now the different powers could have swayed things this and that, and how each elected official had some counter mechanic that could help the mafia as well. I just thing the power that a Hydra possess (double the popularity, double the reputation, double the scum-hunting, ect. ect.) really hurts other people who would want to get a shot. I guess the simple answer is to play more and build you're own reputation, right? :p | ||
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
On December 30 2011 03:31 HarbingerOfDoom wrote: Thanks for hosting kita/cyber, it was an interesting setup. I don't think balance was at fault, erandorr/curu and dropbear/bum just gave themselves away to those familiar with their play very early on, and then scum was down a kp, lost almost all their electability, and lost the guidance of their vets. I do think hydras are town favored if they are 2 vets though. As for introducing people to mafia, I think a newbie game is definitely a better way to do it than hydras, but those aren't always starting at convenient times/don't always have Sheth playing in them to help convince your friend to give it a try :-P I agree with this. I was getting confused as shit. At least for the part about introducing people with newbie games. | ||
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Jitsu
United States929 Posts
On December 30 2011 22:03 cascades wrote: Would also like comments on my play if any. I would like to echo this as well. Any comments would be appeciated. | ||
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