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United States2095 Posts
On December 19 2011 23:14 Jitsu wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 17:34 cascades wrote:
And this was why I emphasize so much on posting cases. That goes for everyone. Now we lost Arc's reads and cases against scum because he was lazy. Granted, it was due to a horrible mistake on Giygas part. Of all the people he gave it to, he gave it to the only person who couldn't use medic role.
Activity should pickup when filters are restored. You really miss it when it's gone. The pot calling the kettle black. Don't like it. Also, i'm somewhat curious. Isn't strongly pushing for modkills somewhat scummy play? I could care less if those players are modkilled. But if I was mafia, I could make a case that I would want players modkilled so I didn't have to do it myself. Even if they do get replaced, it's much easier to convince others to vote for them. We've had a large amount of time to pick apart their play. Not in the replacements case. Even as far as VE goes, I couldn't figure him out at all until he suicide killed the Godfather.
I've been in a bad mood towards this game ever since Arctocod got me somewhat upset. And I really dislike it when people aren't helping, I didn't realize a few people just miss formatted their votes. Also I simply thought it was the rules that they'd get removed as that was why I was posting who would be removed so we don't have to even watch their filters or anything.
I'd really like Deus-ex and someone else. I think TNTP would fit in. I REALLY don't want to give it to risk.nuke just because of the way you've played this game so far. I'm not saying you seem scummy, I just think you'd use the roll too agressively even if its not the best for town. So I'd really like to see Deus-Ex and TotallyNot in the two roles tonight. And let me add in the filters you guys are missing in my next post. Also, I think its smart if we have a few targets for who to check. Obviously if anyone gets roleblocked today come out with it and theres our obvious pick for who to save / check.
Radfield : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291720&user=52884
risk.nuke : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291720&user=76576
cascades : http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291720&user=53202
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Watcher is to watch Radfield today
Radfield when you get roleblocked are you notified that you are roleblocked for the day and night
Or every one-period you get notified you are roleblocked?
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United States2095 Posts
No, stupid. We'll pick several targets and WIFOM them. However if Radfield has been notified that he was roleblocked, then you are correct!
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United States2095 Posts
I'd recomend we choose between the 2 people we elect. Hopefully Deus-ex and TNTP and Radfield and the watcher chooses based on their best geuss on who to watch. That way we can hopefully save those that we elect and Radfield our mayor.
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No Radfield is getting watched no matter what
Case 1: Radfield is roleblocked
Watcher finds the roleblocker
Case 2: Radfield is not roleblocked
Radfield can medic someone
Case 3: Radfield is scum (however unlikely)
We will know from the watch
Case 4: Radfield is hit
Watcher will know who hit him
The watcher is the key to keeping Radfield tonight
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Will the Watcher be able to discover if someone is mafia? Sounds like the ultimate rolecheck.
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Also, if that is the case, I think Radfield will be the best option. Ensures his safety another night, allows him to heal someone, OR** we catch a mafia. Seems win-win.
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United States2095 Posts
Its all about the trade off. Your trading a Watch for a Medic save.
I think its definetly more important to have the watch used wisely and if we say its "For sure going to be on Radfield" well we've wasted our watch for a save. If we think Radfield is scum, we shouldn't have given him the medic power to start with so Case 3 is just bad.
And in case 4, I geuss thats why we say for the Watcher to choose one out of a small pool, such as Radfield and whoever we elect. This in effect can save them all. Its definetly smarter to not just say "Were using it on Radfield!" when we can do so much more with it -_-
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Well, if you think we can do so much more with it, what do you suggest? A random watch on a random player? Odds are if we randomly pick someone, Radfield gets lynched anyway, the medic/mayor is gone, and the watcher sees nothing.
We watch Radfield, the Town comes out ahead in all situations. We get the medic/mayor for at least another day, OR we get another mafia member if they hit Radfield.
I can't see any negatives.
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United States2095 Posts
Its not a random player, its something that can save our new elected roles. Its not really a negative to only watch Radfield but its a negative to not get more out of it. If we have the watcher watch one of either Radfield / Deus , we can figure out one of their alignments for sure, and we can save them both. Theres no reason to just have it be Radfield. I can get into more logic to explain if you'd like, but I think its obvious now that I've explained it?
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On December 20 2011 03:18 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Its all about the trade off. Your trading a Watch for a Medic save.
I think its definetly more important to have the watch used wisely and if we say its "For sure going to be on Radfield" well we've wasted our watch for a save. If we think Radfield is scum, we shouldn't have given him the medic power to start with so Case 3 is just bad.
And in case 4, I geuss thats why we say for the Watcher to choose one out of a small pool, such as Radfield and whoever we elect. This in effect can save them all. Its definetly smarter to not just say "Were using it on Radfield!" when we can do so much more with it -_-
Who do YOU suggest we watch then?
There is a place and time to WIFOM but it is not now so don't get all fancy with your supposed pro-town plan. Stop thinking you'll confuse the scum with your stupid plan because it won't. It is clear who will get hit tonight given we don't watch Radfield. We lost a DT and several blues already - who do you think scum is going to hunt now? Clearly the logical posters. Did the WIFOM yesterday save both Arc and Rad? Clearly not.
Arc flipped town and he was highly suspicious of you. Your posting has been terrible this entire game - being on the fence the whole time then suddenly coming to ProfBA's defense. You should be up there with GreyMist on the chopping block today
It is very likely Arc got double stacked last night. Rad did not claim a hit, no one else has so far - and I assume no one will. Tonight Rad will get double stacked / hit if he is not watched.
The watcher is going to be DEUS so he's not going to watch himself. You watch anyone else and its a shot in the dark that you'll get anything - and if he does get something it'll just be confusing information (random blues doing random shit who knows)
If we have the watcher watch one of either Radfield / Deus , we can figure out one of their alignments for sure, and we can save them both.
What kind of logic is that
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United States2095 Posts
Well zeks, it should be obvious. I didn't realize Deus would be the watcher for sure, I didn't think we'd decided if he wanted Pranker or Watcher. If Deus will be the watcher, hes not stupid. Hes clearly going to watch Radfield, however with saying we want him to WIFOM between himself and the other elected role (Prankster) we could have saved them both. And yes its smart that we watch radfield, however if you were able to catch on that Deus is smart enough to know what to do with his watch then I felt we could have saved someone else with it too. Even now I think its smart that we have him pick between Rad and Prank.
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We obviously have two roles on one player - Medic and Mayor on Radfield, plus, he's a known vet with strong scum-hunting skills.
Opposed to watching someone else: GiygaS's role is wasted. Whoever is elected to Chief of Police is saved one night. Than the Prankster can be healed by the medic, assuming we have a medic laying low. On top of that, Radfield still has his medic ability since he was role-blocked, and if we can keep Radfield alive another night, it only increases his chance of catching scum.
Now let's say we choose to watch someone else. We have to decide who to watch, first of all. The odds of that player getting hit are drastically less than that of watching Radfield, since he could possibly be the most potent scum-hunter left. (Sorry; don't really know the abilities of the other townies, just the reputation of Rad).
So, I look at it like this.
Scenario 1: We protect Radfield, and have the ability to extend our ability to keep hunting for Scum extremely effectivly, and have a moderate chance of catching a mafia if they try to kill him. We keep all of our power-roles and continue to look for mafia.
Scenario 2: We protect someone else. We have a very small chance to luckily catch a mafia hitting a player not Radfield. We potentially lose a player with two roles on him, as well as a scum-hunter.
Seems pretty obvious Scenario 1 is the way to go, to me at least.
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Radfield still might die anyway - but that is a scenario I don't want to venture into
For all the marbles DEUS better be town
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On December 20 2011 03:11 zeks wrote:
No Radfield is getting watched no matter what
Case 1: Radfield is roleblocked
Watcher finds the roleblocker
Case 2: Radfield is not roleblocked
Radfield can medic someone
Case 3: Radfield is scum (however unlikely)
We will know from the watch
Case 4: Radfield is hit
Watcher will know who hit him
The watcher is the key to keeping Radfield tonight
Can you explain how #3 would occur? Cause all a watch does is check who visits the target.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
zeks is correct, and barring any particular circumstances I am the player to watch.
When I was roleblocked, I was immediately notified by the host, both times this happened apprx 6-8hours before the end of Day. So if anyone gets roleblocked you need to immediatly claim it.
Because the watcher acts retroactively, the mafia CANNOT roleblock this cycle, because that means we know where to watch to immediately get the identity of the roleblocker. Mafia cannot afford this.
So unless someone claims a roleblock, we watch me tonight. That assures I will live till day 4(unless mafia chooses a 1 for 1 trade, which at this point is ok). That frees up me to make a save tonight and tomorrow, and also frees up our other medic(whomever protected Arcto on night 1) to not protect me.
All in all a great situation for us. I'm hoping evantrees is an investigative role, that way we can protect him, and direct his action.
On December 20 2011 01:11 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 19 2011 19:19 Refallen wrote:On December 19 2011 03:02 GreYMisT wrote:On December 19 2011 02:22 DEUS-ex-MAFIA wrote:
i had refallen on my townlist.
greymist is 95% scum.
will get back to this later and advice annul to post my list 1min before the night ends. Just noting this for now, notice how dues (supersoft) said earlier that he is very good at telling my town from my scum, and because of this he would research me. Now notice how he waits for both arcticod and radfield to voice their suspicions before he posts. If he is so sure I am "95%" scum and he has as good of reads as he claims, why not say this earlier instead of waiting for Arcto and rad? Hardly a point, and you're not exactly helping your case by saying how two very good players think you're scum (one confirmed town, too). I explained my reasoning earlier about the suggestion for MrZentor as secretary of defense. Remember at that time I thought it was a public rolecheck. I suggested Zentor because:
A. He already claimed his role in thread, allowing us to check if he was Lyning or not.
B. putting someone in who had already claimed would protect other blues from exposure
C. I did not believe any powers were associated with this role Also, this did not make sense at all. The most definite clear choices for the Secretary of Defense and Surgeon were definitely Arc and Giygas, bar none. Your premise of how putting in Zentor would protect other blues is ridiculous. How would that work? Lastly, I for one thought that Zentor's claimed ability was very very believable. Also, evantrees you need to stop nitpicking on minor issues like vote formatting. Lastly, we really shouldn't be discussing modkills here. What's the point of that? For now, I'm leaning towards lynching Greymist. I'm Glad you didn't actually read my post so I have to explain it again. yay. I wanted MrZentor in that spot when I believed the position was a public roleclaim. After It was explained to me that that was not the case, I instead supported Giygas and Arctocod for the spot. None of you seem to be worried at all that the entire thread has decided to lynch me really based on nothing more than "feeling" and "meta." didnt we decide those were not good reasons early on?
Yes, voting based on "feeling" is a poor reason. Voting based on meta is a mediocre reason(see: erandorr). However I am doing neither of those things.
Public Roleclaim
You misunderstood the Defense position to be a public rolecheck. That is fine. However thinking this you pushed for Zentor, that is not fine. We know that mafia have 4 power roles, possibly 5. By you pushing for Zentor, you ensure that none of those players would be outted by the public rolecheck. Confirming Zentor was a waste of a very powerful town tool. You're whole position was that we needed to be careful and not out blues. But that is a terrible position. Any tool we can use to find scum we use. I doubt any other townies were sitting around worried about outting some scummy blue, because we don't care about that. Only mafia worry about the blue roles.
But that is certainly not the meat of what I was posting. You have not responded to my (short) case, though I admit there is not a ton you can say. Particularly damning I find is this quote:
On December 16 2011 06:37 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 16 2011 06:09 Arctocod wrote:
His play seems very strange if he is scum. He is attracting a lot of attention, posting quite a bit and being aggressive. His latest post about changing his style also feels genuine to me. I don't see what makes him more likely scum than all the useless people we've around. While he isn't one of my strongest town reads, I don't think he is a good target. But in his post about changing his style, you don't find it odd that he essentially gave an excuse not to scumhunt anymore today? you are right however that he is doing a very good job at attracting attention, though i am not completely sold on the fact that mafia would never do this. ill take a look over the tread for an alternative lynch, though i am not completely sold on risk being town, his behavior just has not been helpful at all.
You go from thinking risk is scum, to "not completely sold on the risk being town". That is weak sauce.
Are your top 3 reads still nyczbrandon, evantrees and cascades? Do you still want to lynch risk.nuke? Show me some content.
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On December 20 2011 04:06 GreYMisT wrote:Show nested quote +On December 20 2011 03:11 zeks wrote:
No Radfield is getting watched no matter what
Case 1: Radfield is roleblocked
Watcher finds the roleblocker
Case 2: Radfield is not roleblocked
Radfield can medic someone
Case 3: Radfield is scum (however unlikely)
We will know from the watch
Case 4: Radfield is hit
Watcher will know who hit him
The watcher is the key to keeping Radfield tonight
Can you explain how #3 would occur? Cause all a watch does is check who visits the target.
I am incorrect I made the assumption of an all-in-one tracker/watcher
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On December 20 2011 03:48 Liquid`Sheth wrote:
Well zeks, it should be obvious. I didn't realize Deus would be the watcher for sure, I didn't think we'd decided if he wanted Pranker or Watcher. If Deus will be the watcher, hes not stupid. Hes clearly going to watch Radfield, however with saying we want him to WIFOM between himself and the other elected role (Prankster) we could have saved them both. And yes its smart that we watch radfield, however if you were able to catch on that Deus is smart enough to know what to do with his watch then I felt we could have saved someone else with it too. Even now I think its smart that we have him pick between Rad and Prank.
The thing is Sheth, if Deus is mafia we want to give him no excuse for allowing me to die. If I die, he better have a name come daybreak. By telling him to protect me he has no outs but to try and talk his way out.
Also, if Deus is town and we tell him to protect me, he still has the option of WIFOMing. Because mafia knows he is town, they will assume he will watch me, that means they have to avoid me, which means Deus can cover someone else... WIFOM.
But the thing is, it's not JUST about WIFOM. There are such things as optimal plays. Right now we have 14 vs 3, with a mafia KP of 2 and dropping. Mafia cannot afford to lose a member from a watch, cannot afford to leave me alive, and cannot afford a medic save(we will have 2 medics operating tonight). Very very difficult for them to operate in that environment. If I am in mafia's shoes I am shooting Radfield tonight, and hoping Deus-ex tries to get fancy. You know the hidden medic won't be targetting Radfield, so he is wide open. That means Deus-ex is in deep shit tomorrow and will probably get lynched, because he watched the wrong player against orders. Radfield is also dead so that eliminates a second potential medic save the following night. This leaves a 9 vs 3 scenario, with some of the best townside scumhunters dead. That is a scenario that mafia has a shot at winning.
Hence, Deus-ex HAS to watch me tonight, because trying to get fancy has an incredible downside, whereas getting lucky and out-WIFOMing mafia only leads us to victory slightly sooner.
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I understand the filter button is down, but If you look at my posts you can see where I changed my mind about risk.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Actually the filter button is back up. Mind pointing out to me where you changed your mind?
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EPT
