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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 10:43 jaybrundage wrote:
Well BH time to get to your post.
It's been time for some time, JB.
On December 07 2011 10:43 jaybrundage wrote:
Half of my posts you called Hedging. The way you post it i assumed hedging was something a mafia would do.
However as far as i can see it hedging is just stating your opinion with out stating it as a fact or a statement correct?
Well ofc this is the case so far the only person who's alignment i know is me and Bbyte.
Therefore i could state Bbyte is a town or that he was pushing a town agenda but was lurking. I would not have to say i think hes pushing a town agenda. Or it seems to me. Or any of that bullshit.
The reason i use this hedging is because i don't know anything. Everything that i state is speculation, analyze, and my thoughts on a matter.
So in the end everyplace that you said i was hedging was really just me giving my thoughts and opinions on someone.
No, where you're hedging you're deliberately not making statements so you can't be accountable to them later. The fact of the matter was, where other people were making analysis and backing up their claims with evidence, you were hedging like a hedgehog. This is typical mafia play, to try to lay low and not stick out the head.
On December 07 2011 10:43 jaybrundage wrote:Then you bold where i stated something about breadcrumbs and WBGs play Show nested quote +On December 06 2011 09:02 Blazinghand wrote:
What i said
BByte-
He has posted but not alot he seems content to just respond to people. He did comment about breadcrumbs which is true. Its funny because in my game of Mini Mafia X WBG claimed a blue role and because he breadcrumbed it people beleived him. He did post his reads on people which is good. I would like to see more posting from him. My question is what do you think of adam Bbyte
What BH wrote
Continuing to dislike Adam. Says Bbyte is quiet, but crucially talks about WBG's breadcrumbing in mini mafia X, claiming that it caused people to believe him... while crucially leaving out the fact that WBG wasn't actually the jailkeeper in that game. WBG was a mafia member using breadcrumbs to pretend to be the jailkeeper. People bought his story, and so he won as mafia. This is NOT a good example of breadcrumbing, this is showing its crucial limitations! WBG WAS NOT BLUE IN THAT GAME.
Ok for this im going to get Bbyte's quote so we have some context. Show nested quote +On December 04 2011 21:58 BByte wrote:Good morning afternoon, nice to get the game started. On policies: Lynch all liars and Lynch all lurkers are useful tools for hunting scum and promoting valid town discussion. Some random points:On December 04 2011 20:38 ElectricBlack wrote:On December 04 2011 12:26 xsksc wrote:
Well, with something like a counter-claim, we have to decide who's telling the truth and who's not, breadcrumbs are useful for this later in the game. Breadcrumbs aren't useful. Nothing about breadcrumbs confirms the person performing them. There is nothing that stops the mafia from having an elaborately thought out claim they've breadcrumbed since day one. Do not attempt to use breadcrumbs to confirm anything. Breadcrumbs alone can't confirm a claim, but they can still be useful in analyzing which claimant is the real one. Depending on who the claimants checked, whether any of those checks flipped is still valid information to use. Back to reading the thread, more thoughts later. Also feel free to ask me anything, I'll be happy to discuss stuff that's not already beaten to death. Hm So i said that WBG was roleclaiming and because of his Breadcrumbs people believed him (incorrectly because he did turn out to be mafia). But as Bbyte said Breadcrumbs alone can't confirm a claim So i agree with him. Because WBG used them to his advantage as mafia. Maybe i assumed that people would know about the game. But i dont think i did anything mafia like in this maybe just assuming something?
Funny how ambiguously worded that paragraph was, that it could mean one thing or the other depending on if people called you out on it or not. You literally didn't mention, link, or QUOTE that WBG WAS SCUM IN THAT GAME. This seems like a fairly crucial detail in a game full of people who haven't played before.
On December 07 2011 10:43 jaybrundage wrote:Moving onYou criticize my comment that no one should get heated in the thread. Are you honestly calling that post Link Do you think that we should let our emotions guide our conversation. I was using examples but getting heated in this game is not gonna help us. I could call you out as Stupid and being idiotic for lynching a townie. But obviously even if i was pissed it would be dumb to do that. I think that we can both agree that you making a snide remark to ey about playing lol didnt help at all in finding mafia. Don't you agree?
I stand by the descision to lynch Bbyte. At the time we made it, it was our best option. I also made up with ey215 very quickly after that. I'm not calling you out because I dislike you personally; I'm calling you out because you're a mafia member and by lynching you we can win this game.
On December 07 2011 10:43 jaybrundage wrote:
On another note EB you wrote you think im scum. Plz provide a case. Or what you say is useless
HAH. HAH HAH HAH. You are fully aware EB is dead and asking him for a case. Literally every townie is fully aware of this. Are you really trying to pretend you don't know the mafia shot him? Nobody's gonna buy that. There's no way you don't know the mafia shot EB. This is another lame attempt at looking town that is obviously not working.
On December 07 2011 10:56 jaybrundage wrote:
Briefly looking over you new case its pretty shitty with no content.
Nice use of caps to make it seem like you have a point. Your "core of your argument. Is also dumb is stated multiple times i did not like the Bbyte case. I'm not gonna let you steamroll the townies into another mislynch.
Ill give people some time to read my case before i comment again. I was not expecting EB to get killed i was thinking either BH Veli maybe Grack even. I really wish he had posted his case on me instead of his empty comment that he thinks I'm mafia.
This is not actually a refutation of my case. QUOTE ME. QUOTE YOURSELF. Show me where you unequivocally make a solid case BEFORE THE VOTING DEADLINE PASSEd. Show me. Evidence.
But there is none, right? There's no evidence becuase you're guilty.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
JB I'd like to see a serious case for literally any player who's not you being scummier than you. If you can provide me with that I won't attack you any more. If you can't, then it seems to me that you're scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 11:44 Velinath wrote:
Why did you post that you saw EB died in one post, then immediately ask him why he thinks you're scum in your very next post?
Because JB is scum, and now that the pressure on he's scumslipping hella hard. Ii thought this was fairly clear.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 11:48 Velinath wrote:
ebwop:err, I got his posts reversed - he asks EB first, THEN states "I didn't know he was going to die" in teh subsequent post, with no posts in between
Meh he still should have read the day post. Literally nobody would miss the day post.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 11:56 jaybrundage wrote:
Dude you gotta read the thread more.
I still think your hedging comment is bullshit. I gave my opinion on things. I expect to be held fully accountable for what i state.
Apparently not because you're dodging. dodging hard.
On December 07 2011 11:56 jaybrundage wrote:
Lol if i was fully aware EB was dead why would i ask him for his case on me. I think your just putting pressure on me becauese of this post.
...you would ask him for his case on you so you'd appear town. ._. do you really not understand what i'm saying here? I'm saying you lied. I'm saying you pretended to think EB was alive, because you wanted to appear town. But as it turns out, our heads are not made out of hard candy.
Our bodies are not sturdy cardboard cylinders
We are not suckers.
We don't buy it.
Scum.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 11:57 Velinath wrote:
@JB: So you skipped the day post for like half an hour? I find that hard to believe.
Yup.
On December 07 2011 11:58 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 11:33 Velinath wrote:
First off, I was roleblocked last night.
Secondly, yes, I agree with this lynch. Scummy posts after Night 1 and the analyses posted? No question. Hassy can be saved for tomorrow.
##Vote: jaybrundage Why would you claim right now your giving mafia information that we dont want them to have. And secondly if you dont post a case on me WITH YOUR OWN THOUGHTS we gonna have another mislynch with BH leading it. You gotta stop sheeping Veli if you wanna give me your case give me YOUR case
1) he's not claiming a role; he could well be a vanilla townie who was targeted by the roleblock
2) yes, everyone please post your thoughts on how scummy JB is
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 12:02 Velinath wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 11:58 jaybrundage wrote:On December 07 2011 11:33 Velinath wrote:
First off, I was roleblocked last night.
Secondly, yes, I agree with this lynch. Scummy posts after Night 1 and the analyses posted? No question. Hassy can be saved for tomorrow.
##Vote: jaybrundage Why would you claim right now your giving mafia information that we dont want them to have. And secondly if you dont post a case on me WITH YOUR OWN THOUGHTS we gonna have another mislynch with BH leading it. You gotta stop sheeping Veli if you wanna give me your case give me YOUR case Who said anything about claiming? Read the OP, ANYONE is told they get roleblocked if they get targeted by the roleblocker, even if they are a vanilla townie. I am not giving scum ANY information here.
Don't worry JB is just freaking out because we know he's mafia and trying to deflect attention. The fact that you're claiming you got blocked doesn't say anything about your alignment. You could be a Blue or Green who got blocked, or you could be a Red who is claiming he got blocked (knowing that the roleblocker held back this round) to try to gain cred. It's just a statement, not a claim, nothing more, nothing less.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 12:02 jaybrundage wrote:
But this question has to be asked if i saw the daypost why the hell would i ask EB a question who is now dead? it makes no sense if i was mafia or town. Its just a stupid thing to do. And makes me look suspicious.
Ah, so because it was dumb, you must not be mafia? You can't WIFOM your way out of this. You made a gambit to look town and it backfired, bad. Nobody misses the day post. Not even you.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 12:17 jaybrundage wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 12:04 Blazinghand wrote:On December 07 2011 12:02 jaybrundage wrote:
But this question has to be asked if i saw the daypost why the hell would i ask EB a question who is now dead? it makes no sense if i was mafia or town. Its just a stupid thing to do. And makes me look suspicious. Ah, so because it was dumb, you must not be mafia? You can't WIFOM your way out of this. You made a gambit to look town and it backfired, bad. Nobody misses the day post. Not even you. No dude its called Occam's Razor the simplest explanation is the prolly the correct one. I didn't see EB was dead so i asked him a question. What your are doing is WIFOM. But a dumb one imo. Call it what you will i didnt see the day post. simple as that
you think it's SIMPLER that you didn't see the day post, THIS DAY POST:
http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=291067¤tpage=30#597
WITH THE BRIGHT RED PICTURE, THE ONE RIGHT NEXT TO THE ONE WHERE WE VOTE YOU, THE ONE THAT YOU'D LITERALLY HAVE TO SCROLL PAST TO SEE OUR VOTES
that's the post you didn't see?
For reference, outside observers:
This is the post he claims he didn't notice:
On December 07 2011 10:00 Forumite wrote:- Day 2 -![[image loading]](http://img833.imageshack.us/img833/2513/communistparty.gif) After class the day before, some of the students felt in the mood for a party, and tagged along with ElectricBlack, one of the older students, back to his part of the dormatory. Drinks were had, and they also performed an impressive experiment involving tequila, oranges and fire. There were no major injuries, and one death. Memories of the evening went foggy after that. At the class several of the students showed the effects of a late night of heavy drinking, but what really caught everyones attention was not the state of those present, but one notable absence. Zona arrived and looked around the classroom. "Isn´t ElectricBlack here yet? Not much we can do about that, we will just have to continue the exercise without him."
ElectricBlack, the Vanilla Townie missed class and was expelled!
Day 2 ends in 48 hours, at 01:00 GMT (+00:00), or 10:00 KST the 9th of December
yeah man i miss posts like tat all the time
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
btw gentlemen feel free to post cases about other players as well. Just because I think JB is scum doesn't mean he's the best lynch for today; maybe there's someone else who is even more scummy. I want everyone to post their biggest scumreads plz.
JB, you too. Who do you think is scum?
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
Could a mod PM the guys who are afk? It's kind of important they not be afk and/or they get replaced. i'm sure you guys are onto it but just thought I'd ask.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 13:10 jaybrundage wrote:
Regardless i want to get more input from people before i start typing a case. Adam is still might have my vote but lets see what new information the new day brings
Someone has to go first, right? I went first. I want you to go now. People may be asleep, etc, and we can't afford to waste real time trying to "Get more input". I could understand if you wanted to see if the afkers are gonna be replaced or what, but you didn't say that.
It makes sense to start putting together a case now and refine it as you get more information.
Unless you're scum and stalling. then it's a great strat.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 13:15 Blazinghand wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 13:10 jaybrundage wrote:
Regardless i want to get more input from people before i start typing a case. Adam is still might have my vote but lets see what new information the new day brings Someone has to go first, right? I went first. I want you to go now. People may be asleep, etc, and we can't afford to waste real time trying to "Get more input". I could understand if you wanted to see if the afkers are gonna be replaced or what, but you didn't say that. It makes sense to start putting together a case now and refine it as you get more information. Unless you're scum and stalling. then it's a great strat.
I mean, hell, how do you get more input? By people making analysis. You should at least contribute a bit. The townest thing to do is to contribute, you know.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 13:58 ey215 wrote:
I'd like to take the discussion in at least a mildly different direction and ask if we should be acting on the information we got by the mafia offing EB. Frankly, I was a little surprised they didn't go after Blazing unless they thought we'd have a medic and they'd be protecting him.
Also, do they want us lynching one of the three people (if I recall correctly) that EB had focused on or did they get rid of him to shut him up and keep him from persuading us?
Unfortunately, I'm not sure how much there is to gain from trying to analyze mafia night actions, just because they can be so confusing-- it can be classic WIFOM (wine in front of me, a reference to the circular logic of the mercenary's puzzle in the princess bride). Maybe EB was right on the money, maybe he wasn't. All we know now is that he was town.
Maybe they didn't go for me because they don't think I'll point in the right direction. Maybe I'm actually mafia and this is an elaborate ploy, so of course they can't go for me. Maybe I'm town and they're not shooting me to cast suspicion on me. Maybe there's a doctor and they think he's saving me (Mafia know which 2 blues are in the game).
In the end, we can't deduce anything from their actions because they know we will try to do so.
On December 07 2011 13:58 ey215 wrote:
I'm personally of the opinion that we should lynch the scummiest of jayb, xtf, or hassey and see where that leads us.
I agree with this, but corollary: we should just lynch the scummiest person in general, regardless of who EB thought was scum. It just so happens he and I agree on JB.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 14:13 ey215 wrote:
On a side note, off to bed. I'll be back on after my final.
Good luck on the final! Make sure to read, analyze, and vote, and respond to allegations before the deadline.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 07 2011 14:50 BroodKingEXE wrote:
jay - to me jay is another one of those people who is being printed as scum based on the fact that he is opposed to BH in some aspect. I feel that he has provided some solid leads, but has to respond to the attacks by other more often then not. I feel like until he can get a few more unprovoked responses in until I can decide.
I was unaware that JB and I were in disagreement about something before i fingered him as scum. Quote plz
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 08 2011 02:12 Velinath wrote:
@jaybrundage Had to move my computer. Answer: YOU'RE NOT LISTENING. I voted BByte before BH did, I was building my case on him before BH did, I WAS THE FIRST PERSON TO TALK ABOUT BH. How is that a sheep vote?
You can go ahead and lynch yourself now.
Don't worry man JB will ignore any questions/comments that incriminate him, and will lie and misdirect, because he has no answer for this because, of course, he's scum.
Look, to the people who aren't me, Veli, or JB: read JB's arguments carefully. In my opinion, they're usually deceitful and based on misdirection, dodging questions, and outright lies. I'm going to read over what was posted when I was sleeping and put together a response, but I really think that if you take a look at the way JB has been defending himself and the evidence against him and his general unhelpfulness, and think for yourself, you'll find your way to the truth.
Time to do some more analysis :D
Also, anyone who has analysis on people who aren't JB, please post it (if you already haven't). This is probably the most helpful thing you can do since we want to continue collecting information.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 08 2011 02:41 BroodKingEXE wrote:
The mafia probaly saw this as a threat and that combined with the spite everyone was showing EB made him an easy target. If the majority of people did not like EB would they really feel like his death was a real loss? Definitely not, I feel like the lack of posts about EB proves that. Since everyone felt like EB was going to be an unproductive townie they thought the act was seemingly random, so no one has had the insight to really dig into his death.
Analyzing mafia actions in this manner is a waste of time and I think is the like, primordial initial WIFOM. What if literally every insight you just made about the mafia is inverted, and the mafia is doing this to throw you off? That could actually be the case. I think we're better off analyzing the actions of people who are still alive than leaping through loops of circular logic about the EB kill.
All the EB kill tells us is that he was town. That's all. Maybe the mafia targeted him because we pressured him. Maybe they targeted him because he said JB was scum. Maybe they targeted him because JB WASNT mafia and they want jB and HB to look guilty. Who the hell can say? I personally think they targeted him because he was an unlikely medic heal candidate (assuming, of course, we even have a doctor) but we can't say for sure.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 08 2011 03:25 xtfftc wrote:Show nested quote +On December 07 2011 05:04 Blazinghand wrote:
All my scumreads were mild, and I don't think we could have increased the probability that we'd lynch a mafia guy in any meaningful fashion by lynching someone different. I don't think anyone was really able to say "this guy here is a mafia" and be justified. We also demonstrated a willingness to lynch lurkers, and I'm sure we will continue to aggressively attack people for lurking in the future. This sets a dangerous precedent for mafia members, who feel pressured to both lurk and now to not lurk. What if another townie starts lurking? Do we lynch him on day 2? Or do we give lurkers a free pass from now on, allowing the mafia to stay out of the spotlight?
If another "townie" starts lurking? We don't know whether or not he's a townie.
If another player starts lurking, and we don't have a solid scumread, he's dead. I think this should be obvious; otherwise the mafia will just lurk.
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Blazinghand
United States25550 Posts
On December 08 2011 03:17 BroodKingEXE wrote:
I still feel that from now on we do need to include a reason why EB got killed along with our scum posts. I feel like it still has to make sense that the person we chose to lynch tonight had something to gain from EB's death. From your experience do you feel that the mafia had no motive (besides the fact that he was an easy kill?)
I strongly disagree. I think that EB was killed, and maybe it was someone who had something to gain, or maybe it was someone who didn't have something to gain, except insofar as trying cast suspicion on other people. Do you really not understand what a waste of time it is to try to analyze it as far as "who had something to gain?"
Look, there are some good things we can learn from the EB death.
1) EB was town
2) the mafia probably killed him because he wasn't doctor protected
3) his death doesn't point the finger at anyone atm
Look, I'm suspicious of JB and HB, both of whom EB thought was scum. But I'm not suspicious of them BECAUSE EB thought they were scum, and maybe they killed him to shut him up. I'm going after JB because of his ACTIONS.
When you start analyzing people based on stuff other than that, you're likely to end up lyching someone for no reason.
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