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syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
September 28 2011 04:49 GMT
#15
/in
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
September 30 2011 07:51 GMT
#45
On September 30 2011 10:26 heist wrote:
/in

How are you going to be able to scum hunt when almost everyone will have a role?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-01 21:32:09
October 01 2011 21:31 GMT
#88
So if a scum team gets the agent of chaos role, there is no way to prevent him from becoming a bodyguard and thus potentially killing all the other bodyguards + mayor + pardoner when they feel like it? Seems rather obnoxious, though with 3 competing mafia teams they might not be inclined to "waste" one of their players
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-01 21:52:27
October 01 2011 21:50 GMT
#92
The bodyguard description doesn't make it sound like that and that would just make the role even sillier as it would either be extremely powerful or completely worthless based on a day 1 coin flip. The threat of AoC itself doesn't really make things more interesting either
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 12 2011 05:05 GMT
#233
We should make a general tier list of roles as it will definitely help avoiding conflicts and overall help players who aren't familiar with the roles and their utility. Ver's PYPI postgame list is a good starting point

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewmessage.php?topic_id=235829


That is not to say you have to pick according to any tier list, just encouraged, and we should mix in defensive roles among the top tier. Further, I encourage everyone to read the role list rather carefully, as even standard roles may function in surprising ways. For instance framer

You have the power to change how one's alignment and role appears to any detective type actions performed on them that night. You may use it on one person per night and may not use it on yourself. In addition, you may also choose to have your framed target visit anyone you choose. Any actions they perform will also be misdirected. Your target will also show up to watcher and tracker reports.

Meanwhile watcher is completely useless
You are the god damn Batman! At night you can choose to watch a player and receive information in the form of how many people visited that person. You must write a short and colorful story whenever you publish your results.


I will be on skype and later today on irc
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 12 2011 12:06 GMT
#259
I concur with pretty much everything what Radfield has said regarding picking strategy. You neglect to mention one important role: the framer. I quoted the description earlier, but it warrants more attention
You have the power to change how one's alignment and role appears to any detective type actions performed on them that night. You may use it on one person per night and may not use it on yourself. In addition, you may also choose to have your framed target visit anyone you choose. Any actions they perform will also be misdirected. Your target will also show up to watcher and tracker reports.

At first glance it allows the framer to completely control actions of any single player every night. It will not only frame the target, but also makes any active abilities useless and potentially dangerous. For instance if there is a NRA and the NRA claims day 1, the framer can just keep redirecting blues to the NRA. It further discourages role claiming and if the framer is lucky enough to find a role with a powerful active ability early on, it could definitely rank among the most dangerous scum roles in the game, especially due to its flexibility. It seems to me that if we go on the road of denying roles, framer is up there with Thief.

Is the target of framer's redirection ability informed of the redirection?

If inventor is redirected, does it mean the new target receives the invention?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 12 2011 12:09 GMT
#260
If the framer targets a member of mafia, can their NK be redirected?

Do mafia have to assign who performs the killl?]
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 12 2011 15:42 GMT
#278
Seems like a fine plan, so if we can get enough support for it, lets go ahead with it. Most of the kp roles would probably end up near the bottom naturally anyway and slightly improving role cops is a nice added benefit. If we can't get everyone to agree to it, the plan isn't worthwhile and we should just stick to tier lists as a general guide line. You have to express your intend not to follow it before the roles are picked.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 12 2011 18:23 GMT
#302
So what happens if we assign, say, thief to #1 and he ends up being mafia, picks Hero/veteran instead and lets his buddy near the bottom get thief who then steals inventor or some other role? The #1 player can claim RB for instance, so we will have to waste a check on him anyway and even then there's the issue of actually lynching him. I suppose we can still deal with it if town has KP, but they could also have a medic role. The point being, the setup is quite complex and I'm not completely convinced the perceived "accountability" is worth the trade of having mafia know where the roles are.

There's even no guarantee that town will get the role cop roles.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 12 2011 18:23 GMT
#303
Oh and then there is this

GF: "You have the ability to cover a player, changing their role and alignment to anything you want."
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 12 2011 19:10 GMT
#314
But we won't know where the roles since obviously mafia will just let their team mate pick the role and then just claim RB or get around the issue by some other means. We won't even know if assassin is killing as he can do night kill as well
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 12 2011 19:10 GMT
#315
EBWOP: where the roles are
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 13 2011 04:56 GMT
#401
[11][1]
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 13 2011 13:13 GMT
#427
Based on private communications, or more like attempts, with arctocod and his posts in the thread he is already #1 candidate for day 1 lynch/vig
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 04:55 GMT
#507
I'm announcing Mig's candidacy for Mayor!

His platform is: he is very likely town!

I will likely be running for pardoner, depending on how the voting goes.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 05:21 GMT
#510
Platforms are irrelevant. Plans are irrelevant. What you say you are going to do with the lynch or pardons is irrelevant.

All that matters is denying the positions from scum.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 06:14 GMT
#513
On October 14 2011 14:40 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Show nested quote +
On October 14 2011 14:21 syllogism wrote:
Platforms are irrelevant. Plans are irrelevant. What you say you are going to do with the lynch or pardons is irrelevant.

All that matters is denying the positions from scum.

Vote dumb pardoner who will pardon twice and wreck the game for town versus vote in smart pardoner who won't pardon unless absolutely necessary.

Vote in smart mayor who'll use the lynch in a good way versus voting in a dumb mayor who's going to randomly lynch a pro-town player within the top queue spots because he feels like it.

Which seems like a better alternative in each case? Also, how are you going to determine who's scum or not without discussing anything?

Discussion is good, but in the end platforms are pure fluff, especially in a game with 3 different scum teams. Walls of text detailing your plans and policies say quite little about your alignment, especially if the person in question is someone like Radfield. Furthermore, promises are meaningless if the person being elected isn't town.. Obviously we are never going to elect a "dumb" pardoner or mayor, given the fact how many solid players there are in the game.

Anyway, Mig is likely town and everyone should be voting for him. Yes, take my word for it
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 06:32 GMT
#515
Purely based on behavioral analysis. I've been talking to him on skype since the game began and I think I know him well enough to make that judgment. Nothing is obviously certain, but at this point it's about as solid as you can get. He also has a nice draft position and is a very good town player, making him overall an excellent mayor candidate.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 13:04 GMT
#536
Only sandroba has been talking about 99% probability, so you are twisting our words for your own benefit. I've also not said anything about Sandroba's alignment. Also it's interesting that you made those conclusions without actually being in contact with me in any way (you did add me on skype and admittedly our time zones aren't compatible; PMs are however an option).

I'm not running for mayor, though I certainly would push for my election as well if I could do it at this juncture but the votes aren't there. Thus I'm doing the next best thing; attempting to elect someone who I've the strongest town read of. I think he has a better chance at getting elected, which is mostly why I'm not running myself.

Can you please elaborate on what you think our alignments are? Do you think me and mig are scum buddies and just being extremely daring? You did mention that you think one or both of us is scum and trying to "to ride the coattails of the strong pro-town player into Office". Who is the strong pro-town player then and which one is latching onto him? Mig didn't even want to run and I pushed him into it. You aren't very consistent and coherent with your accusations, which is quite scummy.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 13:51 GMT
#545
Elections are all about trust. If every town aligned player decided to run rather than supporting someone with a better chance at winning who also appears town for whatever reason, town would have no hope in electing one of their own.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 13:57 GMT
#547
There's nothing at all in my conversation with Arctocod that says anything about my alignment. It does say about his, however. He refused to talk openly and rather decided to hide behind his gimmick and fake identity. Haven't seen him on irc since then.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 14:07 GMT
#549
No, though you may make specific inquiries over skype
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 19:53 GMT
#579
This "if you are town, you must be running for mayor since you can only know your own alignment" is such an hilariously flawed logic. The only way to elect someone is to get more than 1 vote and that supposedly requires townies voting for townies or we are guaranteed to end up with a scum mayor.

Absurdly bad
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 19:59 GMT
#581
I never said I didn't talk to him about the game, you are imagining things. Mig said we talked a lot non-game related things, but that's about it.

It's you who is dodging. Explain how a townie gets elected without other townies voting for him and thus at least to a degree trusting him.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 20:16 GMT
#585
You are back to saying that every single townie should run for mayor
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 14 2011 21:27 GMT
#597
On October 15 2011 06:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
It's clear that syllogism is not a candidate. He has no votes.

Feel free to vote for me, but it doesn't appear likely we've enough votes to elect us both. Obviously if mig can't be elected, I would rather have me as one of the two elected roles.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 15 2011 08:18 GMT
#678
This greymist wagon is absolutely scum influenced. I can not believe people like Foolishness would push to elect a new player, especially in this setup. Greymist may still be town, but the intend is clearly to prevent the threat of townie mig being elected.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 15 2011 08:38 GMT
#680
You do realize the whole point of the elected office is to have a good player protected by bodyguards? While #1 priority should be to deny the position from scum, the notion that we should elect a new player to achieve that when there is a very good player who is even more likely to be town is ludicrous. Greymist's draft position is even #22
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 15 2011 17:01 GMT
#714
Haha not that this has any relevance to the game, but he absolutely is not my "mafia hero". I thought he was scum in DRH's experimental game, and indeed he was
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 16 2011 07:47 GMT
#870
If there are any guns out there that require targets, contact me or mig please
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 17 2011 15:49 GMT
#995
Rad raises some good points, but I'd like to hear more from Meapak, specifically who does he consider a solid lynch today. Arctocod apparently, but how about building an actual case
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 18 2011 15:06 GMT
#1092
It's a shame two yorkists were already dead, if that's indeed his family

##vote Meapak_Ziphh
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 19 2011 04:53 GMT
#1246
Jackal thanks for that
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 19 2011 10:56 GMT
#1256
This is more a post game topic, but it's a shame the game is currently so dull for observers and even for the majority of town. Little to no actual analysis is being done in public and even in private it's largely a matter of the process of elimination. I could go into detail as to why I think we ended up in this situation, but I'll save that for post game, though perhaps the reasons are already apparent to most.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 21 2011 12:04 GMT
#1387
Deliberately misleading players like that would be disgusting, given that this is an open setup and the OP states that there are only four factions. If an invention changed alignments, the only number shown should be the total number of players remaining
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 23 2011 07:21 GMT
#1514
So did Kenpachi really pick NKVD agent at #2 as scum because he misunderstood the role description
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 23 2011 18:37 GMT
#1529
PM games make me so incredibly lazy; I'm pretty much content talking to a few selected people and being otherwise completely invisible. Anyway, I concur with Rad's thoughts on skype/irc. They put too much pressure on most scum players, especially skype. When talking to people who you know well, you've to answer pretty fast and doing something like erasing/rewriting your replies constantly can make you look scummy. I suppose you can get used to it, but it still gets pretty demoralizing having to constantly be ready to lie in real time.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 17:50:11
October 24 2011 17:48 GMT
#1576
That's a bad approach; there aren't that many defensive roles and scum aren't likely to end up with most of them. You've flexibility with KP roles, so you can aim at scum or town depending on the situation. Defensive roles only postpone the inevitable, especially if townies are doing the shooting. One of the teams going for vote rigger could have easily solved the DT as pardoner problem immediately as well.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-24 17:58:56
October 24 2011 17:57 GMT
#1578
Going for GF at #6 is fine, I was mostly referring to the other picks, which were all around way too safe

Besides, not like anyone followed a plan and if you get checked, you are generally dead anyway
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 24 2011 18:28 GMT
#1580
It's not a townie point of view, we probably spent more time theorycrafting scum setups before the game than townie ones. Obviously the plans have to be adjusted according to draft order, but expecting other teams to do everything for you is a mistake.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 11:40:03
October 26 2011 07:59 GMT
#1604
Foolishness made no impact for town at all, regardless of what kind of information he had and how much effort he put into his operations. Chezinu family thing is intriguing, but you can't just have no thread presence and basically ignore townies completely and expect town not to get suspicious. Everyone except his circle of two (?) players thought he was scum, due to his nonexistent thread presence and some rather strange comments regarding the other town circle. Further, Sandroba had pretty much no influence on town; foolishness doomed himself. It's rather silly to suggest that Sandroba "survived unscathed" when town was lynching/killing scum pretty much at the fastest rate possible and once we ran out of obvious targets, we reconsidered sandroba.

Also, the town circle didn't use irc for anything and players mostly idled there or chatted about mostly inconsequential things.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-10-26 09:07:54
October 26 2011 08:59 GMT
#1606
On October 26 2011 17:17 wherebugsgo wrote:
Syllo you called me unhelpful day 0 for calling you out on thinking sandro was town.

I told you I believed sandro's logic for thinking Mig was town was really bad and you basically said I was being anti-town. Regardless of what your circle thought of Foolishness, had more scum taken advantage of that rift between town factions like sandro did, we would've been in a lot of trouble.

Hopefully next time you don't rely on a cheap trick to try and confirm your good friends as being town, because that was honestly incredibly frustrating to deal with on day 0/1. You and sandro considered each other town for completely illogical and stupid reasons.

No, I called you unhelpful because you were refusing to vote for Mig over Greymist even in the scenario that your least wanted candidate, radfield, was going to get elected anyway and in general were undermining our efforts to get a very likely townie and a DT elected. Greymist was a horrible candidate, which was one of the reasons we were suspicious of Foolishness, but you refused to budge, as is typical of you. I never considered sandroba "99%" town or anything close to that; me and mig were both incredibly suspicious of him early on. The suspicion only somewhat subsided because he became completely supportive of everything we did and didn't push for any scum objectives. This is because we pretty much cornered him by making it nearly impossible for him not to be convinced of our innocence. It's rather hilarious to see you suggest I'm frustrating to deal with, given your own quite earned reputation. As for illogical and stupid, well I'm not even going to touch that.

Note that I never gave Sandroba any information whatsoever.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
October 27 2011 05:03 GMT
#1622
Yes, we didn't really do anything after the elections, especially not me. Sure there was some discussion about targets, some process of elimination and gathering role information, but in the end the game pretty much played itself by that point
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