EPT
This game looks awesome.
Pick Your Power Interesting!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
This game looks awesome. | ||
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Radfield
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Radfield
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Radfield
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If a Mayor is a defensive role(a vet) and is shot, does his veteran status get removed, or does a bodyguard die. Likewise if a Rockstar is shot, which bodyguards die first? Is this the complete list of players with guns(for Bullet Bill): Bad Santa, Vig, Day Vig, Capitalist, JOAT, Ace, BC, Dreamflower, NRA Member. Can Rock Star, Vet, Martyr, Meth Man, NRA Member be roleblocked and lose their defensive power for the night? If Mad Hatter is shot when roleblocked, do his bombs still go off? Or does it just stop the moving/placing mechanic? Can an assasin target vanilla townies for a hit? eg: Ver Vanilla Does a politician who buys a nuke or kinglynch have to actually post in the thread to activate the power? JOAT say six abilities, but only lists 5. If a thief tries to steal the role of a vanilla player, does the thief lose his power or is it refunded for another try the next night? Bodyguard roles are chosen from vanilla townies. Will an agent of chaos be added to the group of vanilla townies when randomly selecting the bodyguards? Or does an AoC get priority for becoming the bodyguard. If an Agent of Chaos blows up, and the mayor/pardoner is a defensive role(say a vet), will the elected official die, or just take a 1 KP hit? Does Qatol have the ability to mislead role checks but not alignment checks? This seams like a rather strange ability considering that the power has to be posted in thread(##ban: ) which means the role will out itself, leaving no need for a role check. If someone claims vanilla town, can BloddyC0bbler shoot him? Also, I assume that BC can only shoot at night. How long will the pardoner have to use his abilities after a lynch? Can he use it on Showtime!'s and the vote riggers abilities? How long does a Paranoid Doc/Jailor/Roleblocker abilities last? 1 full cycle? If a Paranoid Doc or Jailkeeper protects a Hero/Assassin/Ackbar(or any other daytime role) will that player lose their special ability for the next day? If a tracker follows a vanilla mafia, will they always be tracked to the KP target? Or will only one of the 4 mafia members 'perform' the kill? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 02 2011 05:46 GMarshal wrote: note to self, dav-vigi rad so that I have less competition for mayor. :-P and redff :-( I'm pretty sure my vest blocks dayvig hits.... you can still be pardoner though | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Player List: 1. Foolishness 2. Jackal58 3. Greymist 4. sinani206 5. sandroba 6. wherebugsgo 7. Sevryn 8. syllogism 9. Drazerk 10. kitaman27 11. GMarshal 12. Mr. Wiggles 13. hiro protagonist 14. chaoser 15. InserT_FreQ 16. bumatlarge 17. heist 18. meapak_zipph 19. Arctocod 20. prplhz 21. Radfield 22. JACCUZISPLAT only a few more! | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 02 2011 06:31 syllogism wrote: So if a scum team gets the agent of chaos role, there is no way to prevent him from becoming a bodyguard and thus potentially killing all the other bodyguards + mayor + pardoner when they feel like it? Seems rather obnoxious, though with 3 competing mafia teams they might not be inclined to "waste" one of their players I don't think so. My guess is that the agent of chaos gets added to the mix of eligible bodyguards(vanillas). Then out of that pool the 3 bodyguards are randomly selected. I don't know that for a fact though. It's only a guess. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 02 2011 06:31 GMarshal wrote: Its probably not terribly effective against nuclear warfare though. Also want to be one of my PM buddies? ^_^ Sure do. | ||
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Radfield
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Of course, killing off strong players is worth more than numbers, and the mayor/pardoner are likely to be strong players. | ||
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Radfield
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If a Rockstar is shot, do his bodyguards die in his place? Or are his bodyguards the same as the mayor, in that he cannot be hit until his bodyguards are dead? What happens if the Assassin correctly targets the mayor(when there are still bodyguards alive). Or is that simply not allowed? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Radfield
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Radfield
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On October 12 2011 03:14 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Just realized I've never played a PYP game during the picking phase, isnt it now time to come up with some convoluted picking plan? Once alignments go out, we will have plenty to discuss. Plenty.... | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Today we have one very specific goal: Try to organize an effective picking strategy for town. This is my fourth PYP game, but that doesn't necessarily mean much, as this is a wildly different set-up. 15 Town vs 12 Mafia means that plans which were excellent for past games, no longer necessarily apply. Also, several roles which were extremely powerful in mafia hands, are now a much lesser threat to town(as mafia have a good chance of targeting each other). My strength as a player is not necessarily coming up with iron-clad plans, and I don't expect this to be iron-clad. I need input, and I almost always need help with the details. Please don't nit-pick details at this stage, and if you see a problem then look for a solution. First off, lets talk about previous plans and if they will work in this set-up: A 'No Pick' List: The idea behind a no-pick list is we come up with a list of roles(mafia favoured roles) and put them on this list. Any player found with one of these roles(via use of power or role-check) is more or less treated as red. Originally this was combined with Bullet-Bill to give him maximum effectiveness. However, this type of plan was always somewhat flawed, and doesn't allow town players to take roles in an effort to deny mafia. Role Denial: Having Town players take heavily pro-mafia favoured roles in an effort to keep them out of mafia hands(recruiting GF/CPR doc etc.). Typically this is achieved by assigning certain slots(top or mid-top) to prioritize and take these roles. By knowing which pick has taken a certain role, this allows us to keep tabs on OP roles like Inventor or in past games, CompVig. This is one of the most important things town can do in my opinion. Even if we organize in no other way, WE HAVE to have several top picks take certain roles as denial. However, the key is figuring out which roles are actually so dangerous as to worry about. Ver's PYP Plan: -top 6-7 picks take the best town roles and defensive roles. -picks 8-11ish take the 'accountable' roles (caller GF, thief, inventor, cpr doc mainly) -rest pick whatever This approach is taken because the mafia cannot guarantee more than 1 member in the top 6+ picks, while they can guarantee any number of members in the middle or bottom picks. This is a good plan, but notice the bolded section. Given that there is a 15 vs 12 ratio in this game, we cannot guarantee by any means that more than a few of the top 6/7 roles will be town aligned. Also, Ver has picks 8-11 taking the 'accountable' roles(role denial) but that works less well in this set-up. If player 8 tries to take a role, only to wind up vanilla, he CANNOT blow the whistle without roleclaiming vanilla, opening him up to both the assassin, and Bloodycobbler roles. Assigning Picks: In PYP2 I tried to organize a system which would land us as many investigative roles as possible by giving everyone a % chance to take a certain investigative/defensive or miscellaneous role. I'm not going to go into detail here, as with only 15/27 players town aligned, this makes a mediocre plan very bad. ________________________________ What are our picking strategy goals? How do they differ from past PYP games? Goals: * Accumulate as many investigative roles as possible into town hands. * Use the top picks to take roles that need to be held accountable(first) and roles that are extremely powerful(second) * Make a priority list of town roles That's it. No complicated schemes, no major pick assignments or no-pick lists. Mainly townies will be choosing for themselves which role is best. The main way in which this game differs from previous PYP incarnations is that most of the roles are far, far less scary for town. CPR Doc or Comp Vig(or any role which gives 2 or more KP) are normally heinously frightening roles for town to deal with, as they straight up double mafia KP. However, KP roles(in mafia hands) in this set-up have a decent chance of killing off other mafia players(1 in 3 chance of hitting mafia at beginning of game). While these multiple KP roles are still something to worry about, they are no longer game breaking. Second, we no longer need to fear the killer combos that mafia can summon up. Assassin+Role Cop or Capitalist!? Politician + Kingmaker or America!? No longer all that frightening, because mafia have an excellent chance of overlapping their picks. Three teams are all vying for the same power roles and the same combos, which means the chance of Team A getting politician and Team B getting kingmaker fairly decent. At any rate they cannot guarantee them even if we ignore the combos. _______________________________ Accumulate as many investigative powers into town hands. Blues don't win mafia games... analysis does. Don't rely on DT's to do the work. Right...RIGHT? Unfortunately... kinda wrong. In this game we have an inordinate amount of scum to catch. Every townie in this game is looking at 14 town players and 12 mafia..... it's brutal and it's precisely why we need investigative roles. Defensive roles are also important given that we will have at least 3 KP(probably more like 5) per night, for most of the game, but I expect players to mix these in on their own initiative. There are two main reasons we need to prioritize dt type roles this game: First and easiest: Mafia don't want them. Most of the investigative roles in this game are far, far more powerful for town than for mafia. Chances of mafia prioritizing them are low, which means town should have their pick of the litter. If a mafia team uses one of their picks to deny an investigative role to town, this puts them at an immediate disadvantage compared to the other two mafia teams which took all pro-mafia roles. Investigative roles, unlike Defensive or Offensive roles, are much less likely to be taken, and hence give us a greater chance to actually get blue roles. In no way am I suggesting we only try to take Investigative roles and ignore the others, that would be foolish. Instead I'm simply suggesting that we need to make DT-Roles a higher priority than Def or Off roles. Second: Behavior analysis is going to be extremely tough this game. Typically when a player leads lynches against multiple mafia, or shoots a mafia in the face, we can (at least temporarily) cross them off the list of potential mafia. Not so this game. Voting lists, night actions and good reads will not prove a townie. Every mafia player has 8 other players to try to find and kill to buy town-cred. This is great for us as town in a way, but unfortunately makes it extremely difficult to find mafia. This is precisely why any role which can correctly identify mafia is extremely important to us as town. In this game, investigative roles are in many situations going to trump behavior analysis. Use the top picks to take roles that need to be held accountable(first) and roles that are extremely powerful(second) This is where we need a lot of discussion, and where I am most hazy about the optimum strat. Roles that need to be held accountable: Inventor, Assassin, Thief, RoleSwapper. CPR Doc and Vote Rigger are on the outskirts. JOAT is so good it doesn't necessarily need to be held accountable, but needs to be talked about. Inventor: Absurdly powerful. Basically won the game for town in PYPInsane by giving town a listcheck, and a Police Radio. I have no doubt that this role in mafia hands would be just as deadly. There is absolutely no way to ensure that this role ends up in town hands. None. Therefore, it is essential that we know who has it. All inventions are announced publicly, which means that if that player misuses the role, we can lynch/vig him. Unfortunately this leaves the Inventor wide open to be sniped immediately(1 minute into day 1) by the Assassin. Therefore it is important we know who the assassin is. PICK #1+ Show Spoiler + Inventor should be making list checks, and only list checks. With twelve mafia in this game, the potential for game breaking list checks is off the chart. In a normal game, list checks look like the following, and are extremely overpowered: 2/5 mafia 1/5 mafia 2/7 mafia 3/10 mafia 0/4 mafia etc. However, in this game we have potential for checks that look like this: 4/5 mafia 5/5 mafia 7/9 mafia etc. A single check like that would blow this game out of the water for town. No other potential invention power can do something like this(though Police Radio came close). There do exist a framer and a godfather(who changes both his own and another's alignment) and that could reek some havoc on the listchecks. Also, if the inventor gives his listcheck to a mafia player it spells trouble as well. No matter what we choose though, we should try to decide in advance what invention the inventor should give out, as this gives us the ability to keep tabs on him. Assassin: We need to know who has this role. First off so they can't kill the inventor. More importantly though is that the ability to roleclaim in a PYP set-up is very very important for town. Think of how many town players in PYPInsane roleclaimed: The listcheckDT, bulletproof, modern detective, tracker, role cop, both inventors, multiple vanillas, etc etc. This role directly hampers towns ability to organize and gather information, not to mention that if combined with Capitalist, Role Cop, NKVD or Extractor it becomes extremely powerful for mafia. PICK #2 Thief and Role Swapper : These roles need to be accounted for only because of the fact they can swipe the Inventor or Assassin. If we are committing to keeping tabs on those two roles, then by default we also need to assign the Thief and Role Swapper. PICKS #3 and 4 CPR Doctor: In a normal PYP set-up, this is an essential role to block, as it adds immensely to mafia kill power. However, in this set-up it is much less scary to town. First, there is a chance that any shot will kill mafia instead of town(~33%). Second, there is a chance that the CPR doc will actually SAVE someone. With likely 4 or 5 KP per night the CPR doc will get progressively more likely to start making saves. Combine that with the fact that separate mafia factions will be trying to kill the same strong townies, and the chance for a save climbs even higher. NOT WORTHY OF A PICK Vote Rigger: In most set-ups a vote rigger is extremely powerful in mafia hands. Not this game though. Why not? We have a Pardoner in the set-up. Not only that, but Protactinum has stated the Pardoner has ability to set conditions on his Pardon in the event he is not around. This means the Pardoner can state he will always use his Pardon if a vote rigger's powers are activated. Poof, vote rigger is hard countered before the game has even begun. NOT WORTHY OF A PICK JOAT Very Very strong. Excellent for either mafia or town and as such needs to be a top pick in the hopes it finds a home in town hands. PICK #5 + Show Spoiler + I realize players do not like having their picks dictated, and I realize that part of the fun for people is to get roles they will have fun with. However, with a 15 vs 12 split, we seriously need every town player to be a team player. This plan means that we are allocating the first 5 slots particular roles: 1. Inventor 2. Assassin 3. Thief 4. Role Swapper 5. JOAT Keep in mind however, that the top picks are very likely going to be mafia players. Each mafia team can co-ordiante their picks, therefore they are far more likely to wind up with with a unique number, and hence more likely to be near the top of the list(Which is why JOAT is down at #5). This is both a benifit to us and a detriment. It's good for town because it forces mafia to take the picks we allocate to them or expose themselves if they do not. It's bad for us in that a mafia player can let a role 'slip' down the list for a buddy, and we'll never see it again. However I don't think this is a huge downside, since we get to kill the mafia player who lets it slip. Meaning the mafia have to abandon a player simply to get a strong role(putting them at a disadvantage to the other mafia teams). It's not ideal for town, but it's better than the alternative.+ Show Spoiler + Let's assume that Incogito has the first pick, and that town has assigned him to take Inventor. However, he takes a different role instead, and lets Inventor slip to the #7 slot, where his mafia buddy Qatol is waiting and picks it up. If at any point in the game it becomes obvious that the inventor is mafia, we simply lynch Incognito. This doesn't kill the inventor, but it at least kills a mafioso. Remember that the alternative to the assigned picks is having no idea where the Inventor is to start with. This means that if anti-town inventions start showing up we don't even get a confirmed mafia out of the deal. Make a priority list of town roles As I see it, these are the strongest roles for town, in relative order, and by category: Investigative: 5Jack 5Inventor 5Detective 5NKVD 4Parity Cop 4Capitalist 4Bullet Bill 3Role Cop Watcher- NO Tracker - NO Defensive 4Medic 4Rock Star 4Witch 3Jailkeeper 3Bulletproof 3Doctor 3Meth Man 3Veteran Martyr - NO Hider- NO Hero - NO NRA Member - NO(unless you want to claim it night 1) KP 4Vigilante 4Dreamflower 3.5Day Vig 3.5America 3.5King Maker 3Mad Hatter 3Bad Santa 3BC 3Ace Other Qatol Copy Cat The rest is basically non-optimal roles. This gives us a townie pick list that contains these roles. If you want to pick something else, that's fine, but I see these roles as the best roles for town(In very rough order): Jack Inventor Detective NKVD Parity Cop Doctor Rock Star Vigilante Dreamflower Capitalist Medic Witch Day Vig Bullet Bill America King Maker Jailkeeper Bulletproof Bad Santa BC Ace Qatol Role Cop Meth Man Veteran Mad Hatter Copy Cat This gives approximately 25 roles for the 15 town-aligned players. The rest of the roles are not really worth taking for townies. The further down on the pick-list you are, the further down this role list you would pick, always keeping an eye towards the investigative roles though(which are a bit too clumped towards the top for this strat). This presumably gives us a fairly decent chance of getting as many quality blues as possible. _____________________ What does this plan do, and what does it not do? *Assigns the top 5 players roles which are dangerous, and are essential for town to know their whereabouts. *Gives town a general priority list for making picks, hopefully minimizing overlap and maximizing investigative roles. * Does not attempt to block all strong mafia picks, instead allowing mafia to cockblock themselves and get more vanilla players, putting them at a disadvantage to town Have a problem with the plan? Great! Lets talk about it. Don't pop in and snipe 1 little problem though. This is something that needs to be sorted out, and needs to be sorted out before the pick list is revealed. Input is needed. ------------------- Some notes on various roles: Janitor: Not in the least bit frightening. We already learn way less from a flip since mafia will be attacking mafia all over the place. Losing 1 flip is nothing to be afraid of. With an investigative role heavy line-up, town is strongest at night anyways. Showtime! and Vote Rigger:Completely nullified by any competent pardoner. Neither of their abilities should ever go unpardoned. Doctor: Excellent in this set-up as you are either normal, jailkeeper, or weak... And you are told if you are weak! A weak doctor can act as another investigative role. This doesn't work if you don't know your sanity, but in this case you do. Step 1, telegraph your protections "I think blank should be protected tonight", Step 2, you either die and get flipped as a weak doctor(implicating your breadcrumb), or you live and have a confirmed townie. Simply a fantastic role. NRA Member If you take this role as a townie, you absolutely have to claim it day/night 1. The chances of tearing our blues apart are way too high. By claiming you do not even open yourself up to hits, as you cannot be roleblocked. This role should be treated as a buffed up BP Vest. Politician Kinda scary, as there is a decent chance the mafia can team up a kingmaker/america with the politician. However, this means they are using two of their powers for 1 extra KP. I'm not sure how scary that really is considering the other potential powers. Not to mention they run the risk of overlapping with other mafia teams, and making themselves vulnerable to role checks once they activate their powers for evil. Bomber Man Somewhat scary, but fairly likely to hit other mafia members, and fairly likely to explode prematurely and not do maximum damage. Not all that potent in this set-up. Cupid Useful for mafia only to kill a strong defensive role. Other than that it only adds a single KP. Vigilante With two shots, this is probably one of town's best offensive weapons. Dreamflower Pointless for mafia to take, so players at the bottom of the list should think of taking this role(no need to take it high). Again, telegraphing here is important(but be subtle) as your death can confirm an innocent. Roleclaiming and asking for medic protection is possibly worthwhile in this situation. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 11:54 chaoser wrote: Woot woot, let's get this started! An important note to everyone, the Pardoner is basically a Prince of Darkness x2 and while there's a lot of KP in this game, there's also a lot of defensive roles in this game as well. A mafia team with medics+Pardoner with Hero as his ability would be horrible for town. As such, they'll probably fake an aim for mayor and actually want pardoner instead. I learned my lesson in XXXIX with GM -_-. We need to get rid of the pardoner outright as early as possible. Pardoner is a threat, but if they ever use their power inappropriately they get lynched. Scary in the endgame, and needs to be eliminated before we get down to 6-8 players, but for now it is an excellent insurance policy against the Vote Rigger and Showtime!. On October 12 2011 14:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I don't like the idea of re-thinking the pro-town stance. We might need to make it harder to gain credit for pro-town play, but we shouldn't overhaul the system. Pro-town play is still pro-town, but mafia have more incentives than usual to do it. Multiple candidates for the lynch is better than usual. Mafia attempts to rig the vote may land on another mafia member, and then we get a ton more information than in a standard vote-rigging scenario. Until someone lynches a player from each mafia faction, there is no pro-town player. Obviously if a player is actively lynching scum, then they won't be on the chopping block, but each and every player is still a suspect until they kill someone from all three houses. THEN they get to the point where in a normal game we would give them likely townie status. Look at my play in PYP1: Lynched two mafia and was successfully organizing town.... as the serial killer. The same approach for mafia exists in this game: Legitimately lynch other scum players, use your town-cred to cruise to victory. On October 12 2011 14:19 Cyber_Cheese wrote: The watcher definitely isn't as powerful as usual, but it's still useful to have some idea how many people visited a target, and then see how many claim to. I'm thinking that would work better with small numbers, eg. confirming to yourself one or two people at a time. Watcher is one of the worst roles in this game. It's only redeeming feature is the potential for Bum to write us a story. On October 12 2011 19:16 Mig wrote: I am fairly sure in personality that is all the Ace role had to do. Because we went through this scenario where everyone had to say the words I am town before. If that's true, then the Ace role is extremely powerful for town. Questions: Can Cupid target the NRA Member at night without dying? For the purposes of the BC role, what constitutes a roleclaim? If I say "I tried to get DayVig but didn't get it", does that equate to a vanilla role claim? If I state I have bodyguards(but am not the mayor) does that equate to a Rock star role claim? If I state I have an investigative role, and all the other investigative roles are dead, is that a roleclaim? Approximately where is the line drawn? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 19:49 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Assigning roles to numbers is a decent plan, and for a few roles (eg. inventor), it sounds great. I see two problems. First and foremost, the situation where a role doesn't actually get chosen occuring, giving the mafia a role they can potentially safe claim throughout the game because no-one else should have it to counter claim. This seems like a problem more for people with very mafia friendly roles like GF. (The perfect example.) The other problem I forsee is with mafia knowing everybodys role. Medics can only protect so many people each night, and mafia know their targets in advance. I suggest two workarounds. 1) That if this goes through we work out which roles we can easily keep accountable first. (eg. the inventor has to invent something town friendly, america has to declare it's targets in the thread, anything we can check their actually doing what they say they are fits here) 2) We don't apply this rule to everybody. I don't know how to work this one, but essentially we cant let the mafia know who all of us are without being sure we know all of them. Since we can't do the latter, it seems like giving them complete information shouldn't be done. Remember that the mafia can coordinate their picks, so it's more likely that they will rank high on the list. I'm really not sure what you mean. If a role doesn't get chosen how do mafia get a safe-claim? Not to mention that there is no such thing as a safe claim anyways since role is not an indicator of alignment. How will mafia know everybody's role? We're only talking about assigning 5 picks(4 if we drop the JOAT) which means mafia only know 4 players role, and no one elses. The rest of the picks are all up to the discretion of the individual. It's possible i'm just not understanding you, but it's possible you need to re-read my post. | ||
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Radfield
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On October 12 2011 12:28 JimboSilvers wrote: Since it is going to come up, I'll say this now. Almost half the player-base is Mafia. This makes denying powerful mafia roles nearly impossible, and not cost effective. The best course for the role picking phase will be for us to focus on getting good town roles, and letting the various mafia parties fight among themselves for the good mafia roles. (Denying each other good combos in the process) On that note, I want to know if you guys think it's a good idea to make a coordinated list of powerful town roles, or a bad idea. The obvious upside is that if we coordinate our picks then we have a higher chance of getting more roles, but at the cost of letting every mafia knowing the general location of certain power roles. I for one am against this sort of ordering. It's called Pick YOUR power, Not Pick THEIR Power. I'll pick my own role, thank you. I understand this sentiment, but I strongly disagree with it if taken to the extreme. Particularly, what do you think of the idea of having the top 4/5 picks be allocated, with the other 23 players able to use their discretion? It allows us to keep tabs on several roles, minimizing their potential damage to town. Thoughts? Also, I thought you were the flame/Ver/Incog smurf.... but those three are our hosts so.... | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 20:29 Cyber_Cheese wrote: As for the 'safe' claim part: Imagine a mafia is assigned to be thief. Suddenly, they have no incentive to choose thief, and they know no-one below them can pick thief for fear of being vanilla. They now have a role they can claim throughout the game while secretly using any other role they feel like. And that's assuming that we can hold thief/role-swapper accountable. If we don't predetermine every bodies roles, it only protects the other pre-determined accountable roles from being swapped. Situation: Thief is town, Assassin is mafia. Assassin claims to have it's ability stolen while previously using it pro-town (On the other factions.) In a later game scenario, it might be important that the town keeps everybody alive it can, and can't afford to kill the thief incorrectly before realising the assassin lied after the thief is lynched. Scenario 1 is perfectly acceptable. The point of the pick assignments is to keep the Inventor and Assassin as known quantities. If the thief wants to steal someone else's role, so be it, at the very least everyone will know where the thief is. Situation 2 is also acceptable, and certainly better than the alternative, which is not having any idea at all where those important roles are. Also, JOAT is not there so it can be held accountable, It's mainly assigned a spot so we don't have 5 different townies trying to grab the role. Also, it doesn't allow one of the top 4 spots to let their pick slide, and instead take the JOAT(the most powerful role in the game after Inventor). Kingmaker is already held accountable by virtue of the publicness of the power. Not to mention, assigning Kingmaker to a slot would allow outrageously easy politician snipes. On October 12 2011 20:32 deconduo wrote: Assigning picks has had reasonable success in other PYP games, however this game will be different. The high number of mafia and them being split into factions means that if we assign the top 5 roles they will almost certainly be killed off pretty quickly. Regardless of who gets Inventor, Assassin etc, there will be at least 2 mafia factions looking to kill them off. If there are a lot of mafia in the the top 5 this works out in our favour, but otherwise it just means that powerful townies die at the start. Something worth thinking about at least. Having the top 5 roles be killed off quickly is fine. The other option is to have no idea where Inventor and Assassin are, and that is most likely a worse situation for town. Keep in mind that with the ability to co-ordinate their picks, mafia are more likely to end up in the top few slots than townies. This means that any snipe attempts into the top of the list will likely result in dead mafia. Also, if we need to keep the Inventor around we can, as we will likely have multiple protection roles(or at least the threat of multiple protection roles). | ||
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Radfield
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We need to get some things straight concerning assigning the top 5 picks. From the responses so far, it seems like very few people actually understand the purpose. The purpose is not to stop mafia from getting the roles(Inventor or Assassin), that is impossible. The purpose is not to be 100% sure that the top 5 picks are exactly what we want them to be, that is also impossible. The main purpose is to keep tabs on the Inventor and the Assassin(possibly the framer), and ensure that someone is held accountable for their actions. YES, a player can take a different role and allow Inventor/Assassin/Theif/etc. to drop to a scum-buddy, BUT THAT DOESNT MATTER! Because if the role is used improperly we lynch the player who was supposed to have it. Sure, that doesn't stop the role, but it at least allows us to lynch a scum out of the deal. The thing is that you HAVE to consider the alternative. If we have no assigned slots at all, what happens when the inventor/assassin starts shitting things up? What is our recourse? Fact is, we're forced to go on a merry chase amongst the top picks to find him, and are unable to use roleclaims to solve the problem(Assassin has infinite kills and can kill immediately). Here's the scenario, with two possible outcomes: The inventor starts making anti-town moves: Option 1: Since we have assigned the inventor to spot 1, we know exactly where to look for our lynch/Vig. We kill the player in slot 1, and either kill the offending inventor, or kill his mafia buddy who let inventor drop. Worse case scenario: 1 dead scum with a scum inventor on the loose. Option 2: We have not assigned the inventor to any particular slot. This means the Inventor is probably in the top 3 spots, but may have fallen much farther. We spend a night or two hoping we have a role cop/detective/Capitalist in our mix and that they figure out who the offending party is. Conversly we just start lynching and vigging straight into the top of the list. Worse case scenario: 0 dead scum, wasted role checks, wasted time in discussion, scum inventor on the loose. Someone please please tell me where I am going wrong!? There is simply no ADDED downside to allocating the top slots to dangerous roles. It is NOT meant to be a guarantee that we become impervious to these roles, but it gives accountability to the roles which can be game breaking. THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE! + Show Spoiler [Sandro's Plan] + On October 12 2011 23:44 sandroba wrote: Okay time for Sandroba's Plan (TM). I've thought long and hard about this game and the ultimate goal for town is to focus on surviving and let the bad guys hopefully and inevitably kill each other. This game will tend to balance itself since the currently winning team will always be focused by all others. Town has a HUGE advantage over all other teams by outnumbering and "outroling" them. Mafia info advantage is extremelly nerfed since they only know their own teamates. So how to exploit this? We focus on picking information/protection/survival roles. We are surely going to need a little bit of kp too, but that is secondary. By limiting where on the player pick order kp can be chosen we buff 4 (capitalist/rolecop/bulletbill/tracker) info roles, basically making them aligment checks or close to it. We can hold people that chose kp accountable by knowing where they are. We shall not try to deny any roles to mafia and let them fight for them and get insta-nailed when caught having one of those roles. My list would be the following, really simple (of course inventor is considered prot/info): Picks 1-20: Rng between info and protective. You can't pick anything else and if you are found having any other role you will get lynched. We win this game by sheer numbers and outsurving mafia. Mafia will have a hard time shooting in this list since anyone can be vet/bulletproof/rockstart/jack etc. That keeps our medics/dts alive and that's the ultimate goal. Picks 21-28: Your choice of kp/utility or prot/info if you are feeling lucky. Kp recomended since we might need to get rid of scum in a hurry. No role denial will take place. Mafia teams will fuck each other over without our help. If you are found havinga ny mafia oriented role in any position you WILL be mercelessly murdered (i.e. Voterigger/showtime/framer/extractor/janitor/etc). Capitalist/jack is a minor issue with this since he will show having a gun to bullet bill checks but I can live with that and I can leave with that and we can clear that shit up in thread/pms and luckly we won't even have to deal with it. For this to work I need full support on this from everyone and FoS on those pesky mafia always trying to ruin my imba plans. Of course I accept criticism/sugestions to improve this plan =) The good: * Focus on info+ defensive roles * Avoid KP roles among certain pick slots to strengthen our investigative roles(Capitalist, Bullet Bill, Role Cop) The Bad: *There is not really a plan here, more of just a general overview. However, it basically lines up well with my priority list of town roles in my large post. The Ugly: *Strange refusal to acknowledge the benefits to having assigned picks. Your argument as I can see it is this: On October 13 2011 00:12 sandroba wrote: Since we have assassin/bc I think it's a bad idea to assign any roles. Let mafia fight for them and deny each other. and that somehow not making a list allows mafia to 'fuck themselves over'. These are both incorrect. First, assassin is not a threat by defenition since we know where it is. Even if it 'slips' to a different slot, the assassin has no guarantees that the players actually followed the accountability list. Second, BC is not a threat, as a player actually has to roleclaim, they can't simply state several days earlier that they will follow a particular plan(not to mention BC is just a dumbed down Vig, it's not a threat anymore than any other KP role). Lastly, the idea that not making a list will cause mafia to 'fuck themselves over'. I strongly disagree with the logic behind this. There is just as high a chance for townies to get vanilla by trying for the inventor/assassin/JOAT as there is a mafia player. In fact, the argument could be made that by leaving everything in the air, We will end up with more vanilla townies who went for the powerful roles than mafia, since mafia can co-ordinate among 4 players. Also, by removing 5 or 6 high powered mafia roles from the mix, this actually causes MORE chance for mafia to get vanilla by overlapping with other mafia teams. We effectively reduce the pool of good mafia choices, meaning there are less high-quality roles for mafia to pick from, meaning we end up with more vanilla mafia. Honestly, we lose nothing from assigning the top 5 or 6 slots. All we gain is some accountability for certain roles. Some players are scared that by assigning these roles the players will become a target for mafia.... guess what, the top players already ARE a target for mafia. Not to mention that the top picks are more likely to be mafia players(since they can co-ordinate), which means the mafia will likely be shooting at other mafia if they try to snipe the top picks. Also, this means any mafia who land in the top slots are automatically exposed to the town influence, and are forced to play along or risk exposure. Arg. Someone please articulate a downside to this plan compared to the plan of assigning no slots at all. __________________ On October 13 2011 00:09 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Woot let's do this. Radfield, what do you think about having the top five picks publicly claim their roles? It does open them to the BC role but at the same time we have absolute acountability and we have clear medic options. It would be pretty simple to organize the medics (i.e. if you're pick 5-8 you protect pick one, 9-11 you protect pick two). I'm worried atm that we'll get strong roles only to have them immidiately killed off. Think about it, if all three mafia teams shoot into the top, we could have just lost our inventor, jack, and town alligned assassin. Getting the top picks is great but we need some way to protect them otherwise it's pretty useless. If they claim it gives us two things. One, a clear oppertunity to organize medics. Two, if the mafia gets in the top spot it forces them to take the role assigned to them by the picking plan or risk being Ace'd. Having people claim is a good way to prevent the mafia from letting a role slide to a scumbuddy. This way, even if the mafia gets inventor or something similary powerful, we'll be able to kill them off without a problem. Top 5 roles don't need to roleclaim, that would be redundant since they presumably already followed the picking plan. If we don't follow the picking plan, then we cannot roleclaim, since assassin will chew us up. We can protect players without them having to roleclaim, as we should have a decent amount of prot roles. I'm not actually sure i'm picking up your meaning though. How does roleclaiming stop mafia from letting a role slide to a scumbuddy... presumably they can just lie, no? On October 13 2011 00:18 chaoser wrote: This is made worse by the fact that there are different mafia factions in this game so things get even more confusing with them all going for the same roles and possibly same strats and soon you'll have to deal with the mess that happened in PYP2 where a traitor said someone picked his role in the top 5 and we ended up losing two days to that alone except this time it will probably be worse when we try to control the role list. Just because town made a mistake once does not mean we are doomed to repeat it. This is NOT an argument against assigning several picks, this is an argument against playing poorly. On October 13 2011 00:18 chaoser wrote: Sandroba hits the nail on the head. This game is about outlasting, not about trying to win the game as early as possible as town. The longer the game goes on, the more mafia will have to start worrying about each other and the more information and time town has to figure everything out. Let the mafia deal with fighting over roles, we should focus on getting as many protective roles as possible. Look at how LOTR played out: Two medics basically bought town enough time to lynch the last three mafia. I'd say protective roles are #1 picks and then investigative roles and then KP roles. Mafia will probably be going for as many KP as possible to try to overcome our defensive roles if we play like this so we can just lynch anyone suspicious that also has KP. This I completely agree with. Investigative + Protective, with a dash of KP mixed in. That is towns best set-up. However, we can have that and still assign some slots at the top to keep the most dangerous roles accountable. The two ideas work well together and are not mutually exclusive. [B]On October 13 2011 00:30 GreYMisT wrote: In PYP Insane the inventor died almost imediatly because he was forced to roleclaim, he was only ever able to get the police radio because of the copy cat role. I understand that the inventor is stupidly powerful, but won't everyone knowing who he is just cause him to have a giant target painted on his head? or is his only goal to get the 1 list check made before he dies? The one thing i disagree with in Radfield's plan is the no-pick list. This seems to be a great way to give scum a list of roles that won't be taken, leaving them open to being picked. On that same note it is important to establish a list of roles that townies would want to prioritize over others. As far as sandroba's plan goes, I like it. If town can get most of the protective roles than we can just survive the crossfire until mafia numbers become more adequate to deal with. Unfortunately, you're guilty of not reading my post properly. Never did I suggest a no-pick list, in fact I stated it was a poor idea. As far as the inventor, YES it makes him a giant target. So what? There is a decent chance he is mafia, but beyond that we will have plenty of protective roles. If the Inventor starts pumping out Police Radios, then obviously he will be protected. Besides, you need to balance this against the potential huge downside of having a mafia player grab the inventor and us not knowing where or who he is. This is the risk that comes with not assigning any picks. | ||
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On October 13 2011 01:27 JimboSilvers wrote: Just a note for IF we decide that assigning a few roles to the top is necessary: Thief should be forced to steal the most imba mafia role immediately, as this will both confirm that he is thief, that thief can't be used again, and whether or not the person who was supposed to pick the imba role actually picked it or not. That being said, I'm still mulling over the possible advantages of assigning the top 4-5 spots. I originally thought that it was a bad idea, because mafia will likely deny themselves powerful combinations, but it might be a good idea to try to assign a role that is really imba by itself. (The part that I'm still looking over is whether or not there is actually a role that powerful by itself that we need to assign it.) This is very very smart. I fully agree with having thief immediately swipe, as it confirms two dangerous roles at once. The two roles that are imba on their own merits are: Inventor, Assassin. Inventor can give his teammates anything, Assassin has infinite immediate hidden kills. Thief and Roleswapper are assigned only by virtue of keeping track on the first two. On October 13 2011 02:04 Jackal58 wrote: I'm not agreeing to follow or not follow anything. Last PYP game I did and it just got me dead. The problem is even if everybody says they will half of them are lying. And that doesn't include scum. I will pick what I believe to still be available at the position I get placed in the draft. Cool. We'll see you on Day 1, as I guess there is no need for you to participate in the next two days. Some of us are trying to use the in game mechanics to get town on the best possible footing, some players are not. Which one are you? On October 13 2011 01:48 sandroba wrote: NOT denying is the superior denying strategy this game. Mafia is not guaranteed to get what they want unless they get first pick AND the first picks already have a lot of focus on them. Letting mafia fight over the best roles for them will ensure we end up with several vanilla mafia. If we deny mafia the best roles they might pick roles town would want and they would be denying town instead. DO NOT DENY. This doesn't make any sense. We're discussing this tonight on skype as I assure you, this makes no sense. Assigning several dangerous picks to the top slots actually increases the likelihood of mafia overlapping on the other pro-mafia roles As an aside, Mafia will not draft town roles in an effort to deny town, as that puts them at a severe disadvantage to the other mafia teams. Mafia Team A takes powerful town roles Mafia Team B takes powerful mafia roles Guess which team is more likely to win? | ||
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On October 13 2011 02:18 wherebugsgo wrote: Can someone explain to me how Assassin is a good role? In order to kill someone as the Assassin you need their role, alignment, and in the case of mafia, family. How the hell does one determine a scum member's family? You only need to know the role OR the alignment. Therefore, if anyone claims their role, the assassin can immediately kill them. They can do this instantaneously, infinitely, and while remaining hidden. All roleclaims become death sentences. If combo-ed with extractor, role cop, NKVD, or capitalist, it becomes a sure kill for mafia. The fact that you need a scum member's family is precisely why this is a fantastic role for mafia, and only a mediocre role for town. | ||
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On October 13 2011 02:28 Jackal58 wrote: I'm the realist that has watched scum and dumb townies shit up this same plan twice before. You immune to scummies and dummies? The thing is Jackal, NOT having a plan doesn't put us on any better footing. We still have all the potential downside, but we lose all our potential upside. Scummies and dummies can still shit things up, only we just have plain LESS info. My challenge to you: Give me a scenario involving my pick-assignment plan that is worse than if we had done no pick assignment at all. I'm not saying there isn't one, but I can't see it right now. Prove me wrong. | ||
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On October 13 2011 02:35 chaoser wrote: Oh ok, I get what you're saying now, yeah, this works out then. Assassins can only kill once per cycle. You're completely right. In fact, that should have been obvious. My bad. The worst the assassin can do is double his team KP. Bad, but not horrendous. Likely still worthy of a pick if we do try to use the top slots for accountability roles. On October 13 2011 02:36 kitaman27 wrote: I'm not sure I understand this logic. You argue that a shot may kill mafia, instead of town, but how is that any different from any of the other kp roles? Just becaues the scum have the ability to shoot each other, doesn't mean we want to provide them the opportunity to double their kp. Sure, there is a chance that mafia shots overlap and result in a save, but what makes you think the scum team won't go for the power roles with their normal shot and the CPR shot into the lower ranks? I think the role is far too powerful to straight out tell people not to pick it. First off, by 'not worthy of a pick' I meant that we don't need to assign a slot to keep the role accountable. Not that no townie should ever pick it. Lets assume you knew this though. I'm simply laying out the reasons that this role is not nearly as frightening as in other PYP incarnations. In a normal game scum can double the amount of townies that die by having the CPR Doc. In this set-up, that is simply not the case. | ||
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On October 13 2011 03:07 Jackal58 wrote: That's my point. There is no plan that is going to work. There are 5 or 6 people discussing the merits of various plans. There are another 20 or so people that are going to do whatever they want to. Some scum. Some town. My challenge to you - Get everybody to sign on to your plan. Or any plan. And then remain calm as the game progresses and you realize 80% of the people that said "great idea let's do it" didn't. I'm not saying your plan is bad. I'm not saying anybodies plan is bad. I'm saying it's not going to work because most people aren't going to follow it. It creates a scenario of false expectations that gets townies lynched. My plan does not rely on needed all 28 players to follow it. My plan only needs the top 5. If you read my plan you would see that the rest of the picks are up to the discretion of the players, with emphasis on investigative roles, and using the priority list I made. So then the question becomes, can we hold the top 5 players accountable for their picks? The answer is Yes, we certainly can. Radfield: Scenario- number 5 on your list flips VT What course of action would town take? This means that a player tried to take JOAT at 5, but it was already taken. We should not have had to wait for his flip, as he should have immediately blew the whistle that his role was swiped by a player above him. Really it would be a null tell though, as JOAT is a pro-town choice(and coveted), and someone may have wanted it for themselves. Cops would look into the top 4 slots, and the discovered JOAT would be placed under more scrutiny. If the role that was not taken(assassin or Inventor or whatever) starts being used for evil, then we can lynch the JOAT given the likelihood that he is scum and let the role slip down. Or not, either way we have important information. Assuming we had no assignment list though, this is a non-starter. So what if the player at 5 flips VT, it just means he doubled up with someone else. We learn nothing in this situation. Honestly, I would say neither option has a distinct option in this scenario. Certainly does not fit the bill of a situation where no role allocation is better than a bit of role allocation. | ||
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Jimbo, I hear what you're saying, and agree with much of it. I also understand your point analogy very well. However in this case I'm imagining that the accountability picks are effective against all three mafia teams, hence giving us a leg up on all of them. Not only vs 1 particular team(in fact I'm not even sure how that would work at this stage) I also agree that it is likely the top picks will be fiercely targeted by the mafia. However, I'm ok with that as if the thief, Roleswapper and assassin all die that is ok with me. Inventor we want to protect, and we can heap our protection upon him. Also, and I want to stress this, mafia are more likely to have those dangerous top spots. Although there are more townies numerically, each mafia team gets to co-ordinate their picks, meaning they are far less likely to collide. This means that the potential killing ground of picks 1-5 is not so bad for town after all. And since mafia are getting those top picks anyways, we might as well assign them to them, no? On October 13 2011 03:23 syllogism wrote: So what happens if we assign, say, thief to #1 and he ends up being mafia, picks Hero/veteran instead and lets his buddy near the bottom get thief who then steals inventor or some other role? The #1 player can claim RB for instance, so we will have to waste a check on him anyway and even then there's the issue of actually lynching him. I suppose we can still deal with it if town has KP, but they could also have a medic role. The point being, the setup is quite complex and I'm not completely convinced the perceived "accountability" is worth the trade of having mafia know where the roles are. There's even no guarantee that town will get the role cop roles. This is an excellent point. In fact, I think the main problem people have with the accountability picks is the threat of mafia letting the picks slip down to a scumbuddy. So, what if we added in a player who takes one of the top picks randomly, just to see if there is slippage going on: #1 Inventor #2 Assassin #3 Thief #4 Role Swapper #5 25% chance of either Inventor, Assassin, Thief or Swapper or #1 Inventor #2 Thief #3 Role Swapper #4 33% chance of either Inventor, Thief or Swapper Something like this. That makes it much more risky to try and let a role slip down to a scum buddy. Honestly, I'm not necessarily sold that we NEED to have accountability picks, but I do think they have potential to be advantageous to town. Keep in mind, the only real goal is to NOT let the inventor fall into the hands of an anonymous mafia player. I think this is a good goal, and one worthy of discussion. | ||
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On October 13 2011 03:48 kitaman27 wrote: Well by not including it in your tier list or "top 28 town roles" list, you're essentially suggesting that it doesn't have much value. I'm saying I still think its one of the most powerful roles and if we're going to have a town priority list, it needs to be present. You're right. CPR doc should be on the priority list. | ||
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However, worse case scenario is that some of the top picks vocally follow the plan, and some vocally do not. This gives us half a plan, which is actually pretty bad for us. The more slots we allocate, the higher the chance of this happening. With this in mind, we should probably only allocate 3 slots, Inventor, Thief and Swapper. However, this leaves the assassin free to kill the inventor day 1, which is a problem. Hence the addition of the assassin into the mix. I'm honestly not sure what the best play is. Every pyp game I have played so far the inventor has ended up known, and in town hands. But with 12 mafia players, the chances of them getting the #1 slot are quite high. What about this: #1 Inventor #2 Assassin #3 Thief #4 Swapper #5/6/7/8 all take whatever, but also randomize in a % chance to take one of the top roles. This means Mafia cannot take for granted the ability to let a role slip, and take a risk of losing an excellent role by getting greedy. Jimbo's thief/swapper ideas can be put to use as well to help speedily confirm the top picks. I'd like to talk this out with people tonight. If anyone is interested and is around in about an hour or so, lets chat on IRC/Skype/whatever and hash this out. I particularly want to discuss with people who disagree with the allocation, as hopefully we can find solutions. | ||
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You have the ability to swap roles with any target. This effectively gives you all your target’s powers, while giving them the role swapping power. (They are free to use it the next night.) The role swap occurs after all night actions are resolved, and you inherit their role with the amount of uses they have left. | ||
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On October 13 2011 07:16 hiro protagonist wrote: And sense we cant do that, lets look at what is most important: In this set up, It is better to stay alive then to kill. Alot of people have the misconception (or are trying to persuade) that Mafia would want to focus on killing other mafia. This is wrong. A more realistic set of priority's is 1. stay alive and 2. take down threats, whether that be mafia or otherwise. There not gonna give a shit about other teams until the end game. The largest advantage as town we have is are numbers. We can compound this advantage by focusing on protective roles. This should be are primary focus imo. We out last them, while at the same time denying them protection. This also senrgizes well with KP, because KP aimed at town has a greater chance of failing while KP landing on Mafia has a higher chance of success. I would like to introduce a plan where if you are town and you are NOT one of the first 4 people to pick, to focus on Protective roles in a tiered format. If you are in the first 4, Pick Inventor or Framer. If you are near the bottom, chose a KP role, or a DT role. Thoughts? Mafia motives will be like so: During the day, lynch scum for maximum town cred During the night, snipe town investigative roles We can talk about town priority lists tomorrow though. It would be nice to hash the rest out before the pick order is revealed. | ||
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Basically my entire list boils down to keeping tabs on the inventor. Which as Jimbo pointed out, is perhaps not worthy of allocating a whole bunch of picks. Frankly, Inventor will likely fall in the top few picks anyways, especially if any town-aligned player in the top 3 tries for it. Scum will not be able to let it slip far, as they risk losing it outright and having a lower player get vanilla. So, this brings us to the town role priority list, which me and Sandro were working on. Basically the idea is to focus purely on Investigative/Defensive/Protective roles in the top 20 slots. Slots 20-28 will then take either KP roles or miscellaneous roles. Still hammering out some details, but the list will follow. It is not set in stone by any means, and it a guideline for townies to pick from. The lower in the draft order you are, the lower on the role list you pick, etc. The only real goal of the list is to minimize overlap among townies, and to give a list of effective pro-town roles. | ||
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Investigative/Defensive Roles Picks 1-20 Jack Inventor Rock Star NKVD Doctor Detective Bulletproof Meth Man Medic Capitalist Parity Cop Veteran Jailkeeper Bullet Bill Witch Role Cop Tracker KP and Auxillary Roles Picks #21-28 Dreamflower Day Vig America King Maker Qatol Copy Cat Mad Hatter Bad Santa Ace This is the general priority list. Several strong KP roles have been left off the KP list, as the chances of Vig/CPR/Assassin etc making it that far down is essentially nil. Likewise roles like Thief and Role Swapper are not on the axillary list, because they will likely be picked up by mafia higher up. There is a general tilt to the 1-20 list in favor of putting roles which are strong for both mafia and town towards the top, and roles that are only strong for town further down. | ||
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because otherwise the draft is slightly off, as picking 3 for your first number would be unique. The missing numbers: prp [2][?] Acctocod[4][?] Jackal[9][?] Errandor[1][1] Siniani[1][?] Revealing if you get vanilla or not is generally a bad idea. You only want to reveal it if there is a good reason, because otherwise you are just narrowing down the list of players to shoot at. Not to mention, you're basically advertising that you are a likely bodyguard. | ||
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Do not take witch unless you are certain you will be around at the daypost every single time. I assume that you only get a few minutes to make your decision on whom to save. I didn't realize that Vet could actually dodge 1 lynch. This makes it far more likely that mafia will try and grab it, which means it probably shouldn't be on the 15-20 list. | ||
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It is very viable for any single mafia team to simply not run, and hope that some other scum team competes and spotlights themselves. Discussion will center around every candidate running, so the ability to stay out of the spotlight while still splitting up the elected roles between multiple teams is a tempting prospect. A couple guidelines for running for mayor as i see them: * Do not run for mayor if you are dreamflower or Doctor * Do not run for mayor if you are vanilla townie, unless you are a solid scumhunter(or have zero faith in any of the other options) _______________ Framer+ NRA member poses an interesting problem. If a town player takes NRA member, the optimal play is to claim, but only if the framer has also claimed. An NRA member can absolutely NOT CLAIM if the framer is hidden. As pointed out by others, the framer could simply direct any claimed blues into the NRA member. For this reason, I think it makes sense for Dropbear to go for Framer. I haven't fully thought of all the possibilities, but in my current wine-addled state this makes a lot of sense. There exists the possibility for Dropbear to be mafia, but I don't think there is very much mischief he can cause to us by lying, especially compared with the amount of attention he would draw on himself. Cost benefit analysis says he should draft Framer. However, the thief/roleswapper is a problem as they could swipe the power. Dropbear can't simply come out into the thread and claim he got it. This is where Chaosers Qatol plan comes in. If a player lower down takes Qatol, they can PM Dropbear and ask him if he got framer, then ban him if he did. This nullifies the power, and leaves us in good shape. This is a bit convoluted I admit, but I do like the idea of Dropbear going for Framer. Not much risk vs moderate reward. ________________________ Kenpachi, you have the second overall pick. I'd love to hear your overall thoughts on the game so far. Mig, I'd like to hear your thoughts too. Is our current townie picking plan a good one? What are potential downfalls? Are there any roles that should be on the tier list? Etc. Protact, I think you missed this question when i asked it earlier: If cupid tries to tie the NRA member to another player, will cupid be killed? also What order are actions performed in. If a role swapper and thief both target the same player, which person gets the role? First player to send in their action I presume? | ||
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For Reference: Investigative/Defensive Roles Picks 1-20 Top 6 pick one of these roles taken into consideration high placed mafia may take something else: Inventor Jack NRA (must claim) Rock Star 7-14: NKVD Medic Detective Veteran Bulletproof Doctor Parity Cop 15-20 Jailkeeper Bullet Bill Capitalist Meth Man Bulletproof Witch Role Cop Veteran Tracker KP and Auxillary Roles Picks #21-28 Methman Day Vig Dreamflower America King Maker Qatol Copy Cat Mad Hatter Bad Santa Ace | ||
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On October 14 2011 08:30 Jackal58 wrote: How do you figure? There are 3 different scum teams all trying to identify their competition. Each one of those teams will be trying to pick a DT role. Well, there are very few situations where an investigative role is better for mafia than a KP role. Why bother investigating a player if you can just shoot him? Role cop/Capitalist/etc are good roles for mafia though, as they allow them to find other strong roles(not alignments) and are good roles for co-ordinating with Assassin/thief/role swapper etc. The pure detective roles like Parity Cop, NKVD and Bullet Bill are next to useless for mafia. | ||
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Also, there is no need for it to be high up on the list, as you might as well actually just grab a role if you are in the top picks. Basically, Copy cat does not directly contribute to town winning. It may, but it doesn't necessarily. On the other hand, investigative + Defensive roles DO directly contribute to town winning, hence them being slotted higher. | ||
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I am running for mayor I also think the likelihood of Mig being scum is fairly decent. I have never played with Mig before, but have watched him in the last 4 or so games he has played over the last few months. From what I can tell of Mig's town play, he tends to ooze green. He is assertive, vocal, active and generally searching for the optimum pro town strat. However, this game he has been conspicuously absent. I have posed this question to several players, as well as Mig himself. Here is his answer: + Show Spoiler + [10/13/2011 9:12:39 PM] Mig: and personally I dont think I need to latch onto anyone either [10/13/2011 9:12:43 PM] Mig: my play will speak for itself [10/13/2011 9:12:59 PM] Mike Hadfield: Here is my tip for you, if you are in fact town. [10/13/2011 9:13:36 PM] Mike Hadfield: Get into the thread and start building a presense. So far you have very little in the way of contributions, likely because you have been spending a lot of time in Skype. [10/13/2011 9:14:50 PM] Mike Hadfield: 'Mig' in my mind is a player who should be ardently pushing for the most pro-town plan he can find, and looking to optimize any role picking plan. So far you have been conspiciously absent from giving your views in thread on this stuff. [10/13/2011 9:18:59 PM] Mike Hadfield: cat got your tongue?  [10/13/2011 9:21:40 PM] Mig: yes! [10/13/2011 9:21:46 PM] Mike Hadfield: haha [10/13/2011 9:21:48 PM] Mike Hadfield: lol [10/13/2011 9:25:34 PM] Mike Hadfield: lol [10/13/2011 9:25:46 PM] Mike Hadfield: the suspence is killing me.... [10/13/2011 9:25:57 PM] Mig: Sands plan seems fine I discussed it a bit with him but I dont really have anything to add for it [10/13/2011 9:26:00 PM] Mig: rofl sorry [10/13/2011 9:26:04 PM] Mike Hadfield: haha [10/13/2011 9:26:05 PM] Mike Hadfield: lol Basically he spend 10 minutes typing and deleting responses after I made my statement(you can see when people type/delete stuff in skype). In fact, my entire conversation with Mig leads me to believe he is scum. I happy to pass along my skype log to interested parties. Here is another thing. How in the world can Sandro, Syllo and Mig all be 99% sure that the others are town at this stage of the game!? That makes no sense. However, there is one class of player who is eager to accept that other players are town. I'm speaking of course about Scum players. I questioned Mig about how he could be so certain Syllo was town, and he responded by saying that they had a long skype conversation, and despite the fact that most of what they discussed was non game related he is now confident in Syllo's alignment. + Show Spoiler [Mig's response] + [10/13/2011 9:01:48 PM] Mike Hadfield: Here's the real question: Why would you think anyone is for sure town at this state? In a set-up like this, scum can easily pass themselves off as townies, since there are ACTUAL other scum to hunt. No need to fake reads, no need to bullshit. Also, no plan that we have come up with yet is at all a threat to mafia, so they have no problem giving support. [10/13/2011 9:02:10 PM] Mig: yes its nothing game related really [10/13/2011 9:02:33 PM] Mig: its more of I have talked for many hours with syllo when he is scum and town and to me he seems very town f [10/13/2011 9:02:36 PM] Mig: from what I know of him [10/13/2011 9:02:42 PM] Mike Hadfield: so you are willing to make a pro-town read based of 'nothing game related'? [10/13/2011 9:02:43 PM] Mig: certainly more than anyone else right now for me [10/13/2011 9:03:08 PM] Mig: yes because its based on my personal knowledge of syllo [10/13/2011 9:03:47 PM] Mike Hadfield: nothing makes me think a player is scum more than them considering a player town, when there is no reason for them to do so. A Scum player who wants to run for mayor has very legitimate reasons to try and search out strong pro-town players, and latch onto them in a bid for joint candidacy. You then ride the coattails of the strong pro-town player into Office. I believe one or both of Syllo/MIg are attempting to do this. Sandroba, you need to explain yourself as well. Several days ago when we spoke, you indicated you would like to run for mayor, and that you would use your lynch power to kill one of the other players running for mayor. You felt there was a high likelyhood of anyone running for mayor to be scum. However, now you have two players, Mig and Syllo, running for mayor(read:more likely to be scum) who you are willing to go to the wall for and support 100%. That does not jive in my head. The idea that a player can be 99% sure of anyone else's alignment on Day 0 is silly. ANY decent player can use PMs to look like town on Day 1(or in this case day 0/day -1) because there is very very little to actually discuss. Not to mention in this game that problem is compounded, because scum actually have legitimate targets to scum hunt. So, if i'm elected mayor, will i auto-lynch Mig? The answer is no. I agree with Mig on some things, he is not particularly great at playing as scum, and he is good at showing himself as town aligned when he is town. So if he's not oozing green by day 2, we have a likely scum we don't even need a dt check for. This means the threat of him being in office is not great(like he said), but why would we waste an elected role on a player who so far has failed to contribute, and frankly is oozing red. Also, in the off chance Mig is green, he will likely have a strong role(pick #5), and taking a chance killing him at this stage is a poor town move. _____________________ Several players have stated it is a risk to have me in an elected position, because I am good as scum. This is false. If you look at my games as scum, I typically get detected very early on: In Closed Casked mafia I was on 3 or 4 peoples radar on Day 1 In LOTR mafia I was both shot and Dt checked by night 2 IN Salem mafia I was pegged 100% by Dr H, and basically the entire town thought I was scum by the end of the game Contrast that to my town play, and things look very different. I am good enough at establishing myself as a townie that I am generally left unmolested by town and able to do what I am good at, hunting scum. I am almost never up for lynch, and am able to keep town moving in productive directions. ________ Why should I be mayor? 1. Protection. I will die if I am not mayor. Look at games where I survived as town till the endgame, and you will find I was instrumental in the victory. The ability to have a clear thinking, strong townie down the stretch is extremely important. I drafted 11th, this basically means that I will not be receiving medic/doc protection, despite the fact that i have a good role, because we need our protection roles to focus on Meapak tonight. Given the fact that there are 12 players who all actively want me dead, my chances of living through the night are very slim. 2. Ability to find greens. This is my strongest trait as a pro-town player. I am generally very effective at parsing which players are green from the rest of the pack. 3. Ability to find reds. I actively admit there are probably better pure scumhunters than me in this game. However, I have lynched many a scum, and my ability to hunt directly corresponds to how much effort i can put into the game. In case you can't tell, I am putting an enormous amount of effort into this game. I absolutely love PYP games 4. I am not vanilla. I have a role which I will be able to leverage much better if I have the protection of mayor. I feel like I am the best candidate hands down. Assuming you DO NOT want to vote for me, here are my recommendations: Do not vote for Meapak or Jimbo. At picks 1 and 3 they have the ability to be extremely dangerous as mayor. Assuming they are town, meapak will have to rely on medic protection, and Jimbo on his own merits given the threat he has JOAT or Rockstar. Do not vote for the Mig/Syllo cabal. Chaoser is too low in the picking list, and likely does not have as important a role as the players higher up. Wiggles would probably be my choice. He is at the point in the draft where he likely has a decent role, but not high enough to have a high-powered mafia role. As far as who I would vote for, I agree 100% with Wiggles sentiments. I have very little idea right now of who I would lynch. As the day goes on we will accumulate far more info than we have now, as players are beginning to spotlight themselves. My choice will be a combo of my own thoughts along with input from the town. ##Vote Radfield __________ There are a lot of players running right now. If you are town, do not run if: a) you are vanilla b) you have dreamflower or doctor c) you have a defensive role This should go without saying. | ||
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Radfield
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Same goes for syllo and mig. I'd like to see the convo that leads you both to thinking the other is town. Redact as necessary. PM me or send it over skype, whichever keeps the formatting best. Syllo I will respond to your post in due time. I am on my touch right now. I will say this though, I added you on skype immediately after talking with mig last night. | ||
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Radfield
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Will you pass on your mega-convo you had with Mig? | ||
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Radfield
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On October 14 2011 22:04 syllogism wrote: Only sandroba has been talking about 99% probability, so you are twisting our words for your own benefit. I've also not said anything about Sandroba's alignment. Also it's interesting that you made those conclusions without actually being in contact with me in any way (you did add me on skype and admittedly our time zones aren't compatible; PMs are however an option). I'm not running for mayor, though I certainly would push for my election as well if I could do it at this juncture but the votes aren't there. Thus I'm doing the next best thing; attempting to elect someone who I've the strongest town read of. I think he has a better chance at getting elected, which is mostly why I'm not running myself. Can you please elaborate on what you think our alignments are? Do you think me and mig are scum buddies and just being extremely daring? You did mention that you think one or both of us is scum and trying to "to ride the coattails of the strong pro-town player into Office". Who is the strong pro-town player then and which one is latching onto him? Mig didn't even want to run and I pushed him into it. You aren't very consistent and coherent with your accusations, which is quite scummy. My intention was not to twist your words. You are indicating that you have a lot of trust in Mig at a point in the game when I think that amount of trust is unfounded. Not to mention it happens to be for a player who I found to be somewhat scummy both in his in-thread play, as well as the conversation I had with him last night. Same goes for Sandro, though I see now why he believes you to be 99% town(his chat log). That at least makes sense. However, it doesn't really make sense to support a third party(Mig) just because a trusted player seems to think they are legit. Unless Mig also used his one-time-only-100% town card. As far as your alignments, I don't have concrete reads on any of you. However i'm sure you can see where my suspicions come from when we have 3 players all(or mostly) thinking each other are town, at a time in the game when those type of certainties shouldn't exist. I'll quote my thoughts on you from my convo with Mig: I'll tell you what I think about syllo: he buddied both plans, mine and sandro's, while offering little commentary on either he also posted a bunch of info on roles/picking without giving any analysis or commentary he also made an extremely pro-town point about the framer, and it's potential to screw with town he also tend to be only moderately active early game as a townie, so he fits that mold fine However, this in nowhere near enough to make a read. In my opinion, making reads based on PM/IRC/Skype instead of on contributions in thread is a bad plan, and doomed to screw you over. Last game in LOTR i convinced Sandro that i was town through Skype yet before that he was convinced I was scum based off my in game play If pressed I would say i had a slightly pro-town read on you, add in your statement to sandro, and I would say you are probably town. Mig on the other hand is different. As of last night he had contributed very little, in a set-up where I would think he would be chomping at the bit to optimize our picking plans. My conversation with him also leads me to think he is scummy. I'm happy to PM you those logs. Also, the fact that he didn't want to run for mayor makes me more likely to think of him as scum then as town. Mafia want to avoid the spotlight, but if a townie comes up and says 'hey, run for mayor, i'll support you' then what scum would refuse? Mig is a strong player, why was he shying away from running in the first place? Sandro I think is likely town. He vehemently argued against my plan, and bullied me over in Skype. He proposed a well-thought out plan, and you can tell he put a lot of thought into it. Could he be scum? In this set-up of course, but he's well off my list for now. The one question mark i had was his sudden flip to pushing you/mig as elected roles, but that is mainly cleared up. Any further questions? Anything I miss? | ||
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Radfield
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On October 14 2011 23:07 syllogism wrote: No, though you may make specific inquiries over skype Why do you think Mig is town? | ||
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Mayoral voting will be one of the most important ways to link scum together in the long run. Since scum are likely to vote for their buddies, we can glean a lot of info from today. If scum decide NOT to vote for their buddies, that makes it more likely for us to log two townies into the elected roles. Either way this election is extremely important for town, so people need to start talking. | ||
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Radfield
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Yet here you are slinging mud on me, and taking my remark out of context. tsk tsk __________ Next part: “I don’t care about the fact that I don’t trust wherebugsgo, as long as he is voting for the people that I want to get elected.” This makes perfect sense. I want to get elected, I could care less whether or not the players voting me are scum or not, as long as i get the votes. Why? Because I know that having me in an elected role is fantastic for town. Therefore, all i care about it their votes. + Show Spoiler + Obviously I also care about their reasons for voting, as that helps to pinpoint their alignment. Honestly, your whole post is forced. Obviously we need to analyze, be active and scumhunt. No one is really suggesting otherwise. They are simply prioritizing. I agree that trusting someone this early in the game is strange. But the keyword here is strange, not necessarily scummy. Though I certainly understand where you are coming from. But every single player I have talked to about Mig seems to think he came across as a townie in their conversations(I did not). That means I am willing to give him another look, and readjust to the situation. I think the likelihood of you being scum are fairly high Jimbo. I think you are trying to force a contribution here. However, as you are the number 3 pick, and already a target for scum, I will not be lynching you tonight. Scum will likely deal with you in due time. | ||
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On October 15 2011 04:26 JimboSilvers wrote: I wasn't speaking specifically at you, Sandroba, when i mentioned discrediting analysis. I think that you are elevating other things higher than they should be, but I was referring to this: This is a terrible way of thinking about the game, and i don't know why it hasn't been questioned till now. We talked about this last night. I was making a point, and you agreed that you saw I was using hyperbole to make a point. It's like you're pretending to not understand what my intention was with that remark. Also: The purpose was not to point out Sandroba's scummy behaviour. This does not jive with the following: I have one scum to out I will lynch Sandroba if elected mayor, for blatantly pushing pro-mafia policies and ideas. | ||
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Radfield
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On October 15 2011 08:37 JACCUZISPLAT wrote: Inventor so you can't make a police radio that gives the wrong results. Also, every single detective will know the results were false since the broadcast results don't match with the results that they received. You will have 4 or 5 players pushing to lynch the inventor immediately. On October 15 2011 08:39 JimboSilvers wrote: This was already answered. Elected roles can be banned. No, Elected roles CANNOT be banned. They are not roles, they are elected officials. | ||
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Radfield
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On October 14 2011 02:50 Protactinium wrote: Mayor and Pardoner are not considered roles, they are considered elected offices. So yes, the Qatol role can ban the Pardoner/Mayor, but it would only remove the powers given to them by their role (the one they picked). They would still retain their mayor/pardoner powers. There are 4 parties. Framer can make his target look like any one of them | ||
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Radfield
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On October 15 2011 08:56 Mr. Wiggles wrote: If I had to lynch right now, it would probably be Syllo. I'm getting a pretty bad vibe from him from his responses to what I was asking, and from the whole mayoral nomination in general. Like I said, I feel he has an ulterior motive for his actions, whether it's because mig is his scum-buddy, or because he thinks he can manipulate mig if he became mayor/pardoner, but between Sandro/Mig/Syllo, I feel there's at least one scum trying to be manipulative, and in my mind Syllo is the most likely candidate at this time. I might change my opinion in the future, as new information comes up, but if I had to lynch right now, it would be him. If I could choose mayor/pardoner right now, it would be one of Jimbo/Radfield for the one position, and then someone else, I'm not sure who exactly for the other. Radfield and Jimbo, I chose, as they both seem capable, nominated themselves to the election, are active, and seem like decent scum-hunters. (Jimbo likes theory and guides, which implies he's at least experienced). I'd probably end up choosing Radfield, due to his lower queue position, and also because I get the feeling Jimbo is a riskier or more aggressive player from his posts. As well, I'd be able to get better reads on Radfield in subsequent days, as I have a better feel for his play. So, Radfield would be the pardoner. This is because I don't know who I'd put in the second position, and pardoner is more dangerous. For mayor, I'd pick maybe Chaoser if he picked up his activity, or Scamp, if he did the same and nominated himself. They're both level-headed players, who I feel wouldn't do anything too crazy with the lynch, and who could use the protection to scum-hunt effectively. Really, there isn't really an ideal mayoral candidate at the moment in my mind, but if I had to choose, it would be one of those two. There's a general lack of thread activity and discussion, which I feel is really hurting the elections. There's probably more going on in private, but I feel the thread serves us better, because we can actually argue as an entire town here, and not just a few people convincing others in private, where there's less repercussions to what they say. Why not discuss things in the thread? I actually think that even though this is a PM game, thread discussion is more important than normal. This will help stop the different mafia families from being able to plan and manipulate in the background, if we force more information into the public thread. They won't be able to hide as effectively by only really interacting with a few players. Unless everyone's dumping their PM and IRC logs, we also don't really have a way to tell if anyone's contradicting themselves or not taking a hard stance on something. I think that major things should be posted in the thread, and not kept solely to PMs. This also helps for analysis, as it disseminates more information to town, which lets us analyze better, and less information dies with a player. (This is directed at everyone, not just mig) I originally felt the same as you did Wiggles. It made zero sense that 3 players would be so convinced of each others alignment. Yet for several reasons I'm starting to come around to the idea that it's possible Sandro, syllo and mig are all town. I think Sandro is probably town, based on his pre-game plan, and based on how vehemently he argued with me about the accountability picks. In addition, our entire skype chat lead me to believe he was prob town. Syllo told Sandro he was town. 100%, no chance of lying town. This game only. Could he be lying? Yes, of course, but i don't think so. Not many players would straight up lie to a friend like that, and hence i'm inclined to believe him. It's a bit of a cheap strat, but there it is. Mig. Mig was the one I was most suspicious of, particularly after my convo with him last night(of which i posted snippets in thread). However, after discussing this with several other players, most of whom felt he seemed town aligned based on their conversations, I was willing to give him another shot. Add to this the fact that Sandro(a player I somewhat trust) is pushing me to trust Mig, and that he is very likely green. I won't delve into it, but Sandro insinuated several things that push me down the path of Mig being green. I have discussed more with Mig tonight, and it seems that we line up on the vast majority of our reads. I'm happy to expand on this if anyone likes, as i realize it is a complete 180 from yesterday. I fully agree that we need more conversation in thread. I am getting bogged down in PMs + chat, and I'm sure I'm not the only one. Kenpachi Scamp Bum prplhz Node supersoft Arctocod heist foolishness Erandorr Sinani All of you need to get in the thread and start posting. I don't care how much you guys have been posting in PMs(and i know for a fact some of you have), we need thoughts in-thread. Who are you voting? What are you looking for in a mayor? WHO SHOULD WE LYNCH!? I'm beginning to think that this day would be more productive if we spent more time figuring out who to lynch. Problem is, as I am running for mayor, I am loathe to scare anyone away from voting for me by indicating I may lynch them | ||
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Radfield
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On October 15 2011 09:14 prplhz wrote: can we do some scum hunting? this is all getting lost in electing people and that's very important, but usually we'd use 48 hours to talk about who is scum and who isn't. right now there's not enough of that from the candidates for election. Agreed. Who do you think is scum? | ||
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On October 15 2011 09:00 Jackal58 wrote: That's what I was looking for. Not the mayoral power but the players role. I though I saw it but I couldn't find his post. (I was at work) So if there is a Qatol role in the game he should not run for mayor. He should ban the mayor immediately though. If this scenario is well received by all of you I would suggest only vt players run for mayor. Who do you think is our best bet for mayor right now? Who would you like to see get lynched? | ||
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Radfield
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On October 15 2011 09:53 prplhz wrote: on a scale from e^i to sqrt(democratic republic of congo) i'd put you right around that sound it makes when turtles think about mozart's influence of modern furniture. I laughed in real life at this | ||
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Radfield
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Look at your filter. Other than your mayoral post, you only have 1 or 2 posts longer than 2 lines. That is why you are being ignored. One of you needs to step it up and contribute. | ||
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Good reasons have been presented: *Ran for mayor then did absolutely nothing to try and get elected *Sat on the sidelines and sniped at posts, without actually trying to improve the atmosphere. *weak weak case on Dropbear. Dropbear was talking about the Framer role before the game even began, and anyone who read his filter would be able to see that. He obviously wanted the role, and seemed to think he could redirect mafia KP with it(which is a very pro-town mindset). Once he found out he could not, he backed down. He also mentioned to someone that he wanted to use the role for the lols, which I can understand, as many players feel the same about the bus driver role. Chaoser, did you try contacting DB outside of the thread before posting your case? So, now that your head is on the chopping block, what are your thoughts Chaoser? ___________________ I am ok with the idea of Greymist as an elected role, but I am strongly against Jimbo. I'll post the PM I wrote to him detailing my suspicions: The main reason I think you are scummy, is that you built a case based on taking quotes out of context, and on seemingly deliberately focusing on what was literally said, as opposed to the intended meaning of the comments. Reading your log with Sandro, I didn't feel like you thought he was scummy, but then you came out in the thread an made a big case against him, ignoring the obvious pro-town contributions he made earlier. He put a lot of effort into pushing through his plan and his plan is a good one. You also painted me as scummy/suspicious based on a quote that we had already discussed. Whether you claim you did this inadvertently is irrelevant. You also seemed to backtrack hard once sandro responded to you, going so far as to state your intention was not to paint sandro as scum, when it obviously was. It's possible you are town, and it's possible you were just knee-jerking, but at this point i'm still leaning scum on you. Nothing personal, and i'm always willing to change my opinions given additional evidence He has responded to this, and I will admit I am slighty less suspicious of him at the moment than I was. However, I am still suspicious, and on top of that I think it is very bad policy to elect someone with one of the top slots. At pick number 3, Jimbo can basically assume that the top players took Inventor/JOAT. If he is scum, that means he has his pick of scum roles, many of which are very very bad if combined with Mayor. Hero, Godfather, Framer, etc. Not to mention that killing Sandro at this stage is extremely short-sighted. JImbo is basing his entire case on the idea that Sandro is pushing scum motives: promotion of not analyzing, scumhunting etc. But this is false, and deliberately missing the forest for the trees. Sandro is making a point, and trying to show that promoting defensive roles is the optimum choice for town, in addition to trying to find townies, not mafia. Because the more townies we can protect, the more mafia will shoot at each other. I freely admit that Sandro has done a poor job in thread over the course of Day 1. I understand his position, and other players do as well, yet I can certainly see where players are coming from when they think he is suspicious. He asked me yesterday why players thought he was suspicious: + Show Spoiler + [10/14/2011 10:12:58 PM] Sandro Maculan: yeah [10/14/2011 10:13:00 PM] Sandro Maculan: but aparently [10/14/2011 10:13:10 PM] Sandro Maculan: only a selected few can see the obvious [10/14/2011 10:13:26 PM] Sandro Maculan: and the rest actually wouldn't mind me getting lynch [10/14/2011 10:13:29 PM] Sandro Maculan: I wonder why [10/14/2011 10:17:11 PM] Mike Hadfield: because on the surface it is very strange that you accepted mig as town, just because you believed syllo [10/14/2011 10:17:29 PM] Mike Hadfield: and that you pushed Mig as lead candidate, instead of syllo [10/14/2011 10:17:59 PM] Mike Hadfield: hence, people think there is a contradiction in logic, and that something sneaky is going on [10/14/2011 10:18:12 PM] Sandro Maculan: I guess You need to get in here and clarify your position, and be active in-thread. Obviously I realize you have been active on Skype, but that's not good enough. Voting in Jimbo is a bad idea, and killing Sandro at this stage is a terrible idea. My goal, no matter what you think my alignment is, is to lynch scum today, and everyday. I'm telling you right now, that lynching Sandro is probably the least likely to fulfill that goal. | ||
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On October 15 2011 18:03 wherebugsgo wrote: After some extended and heated discussion in PMs I think it's best that this go in the thread. Currently, Radfield leads the mayoral candidacy with 6 votes. HOWEVER, Radfield is a terrible candidate and should NOT be allowed into office. If you are voting Radfield please strongly reconsider your vote and take your vote off of him. Vote GreyMist or Mig instead. The optimal situation is if we can get Mig/Greymist to 7/8 votes each. We need both of these guys elected to office. I think both are town, and we need townies in office, not Radfield. Currently I suspect any voters on Radfield, and I will continue to do so until you have provided adequate reason for me to think you are not suspicious. I repeat, WE CANNOT ALLOW RADFIELD TO BE ELECTED. On October 15 2011 19:35 wherebugsgo wrote: also, you don't find it odd that Radfield said that the scumteams would be running candidates for mayor, then he ran himself? It seems like a good way to relieve suspicion on himself; as scum that's a great way to get yourself into office. I also don't doubt that Radfield is good at scum seeing as he completely convinced sandroba he was town in LoTR through PMs. Electing Radfield into office is basically a gamble. We gamble that he's town and he potentially gets protection, or that he's scum and so we get him off the candidacy list. I don't think we can be sure of Radfield's alignment this early in the game and so we should go with the two candidates we CAN be sure of, GreYMisT and Mig. Mig is really transparent and obvious town, GreYMisT is a relatively new player so I'd find it extraordinarily unlikely he's scum based on the things he's said and done both in thread and in PM. Is there an actual argument in here somewhere? Basically what you are saying is that there is a risk I may be scum, and therefore should not be mayor. But what does a scum Radfield as mayor really look like? Fact is, regardless of what you think my alignment is, you should know from my playstyle that I will be hunting scum no matter what. You may think that my role in my hands could be dangerous, but I have a role which can confirm itself(and is shown to NOT be dangerous to town), and works with great synergy as the mayor position. You're also completely ignoring the vast upside of having a pro-town Radfield in an elected slot. If I am allowed to live till late-game, which an elected position will grant me, I will undoubtedly be a game changing presence in favor of town. I am clear thinking, good at scum hunting, and excellent at keeping town discussion moving in productive directions. You may think that I can give these benefits without the protection of an elected position, but I will be dead night 1. There are 12 players actively opposed to seeing me elected. There are 12 players actively trying to cut me down and reduce my effectiveness. There are 12 players who want me dead and out of this game. Bugs, if you are NOT one of those 12 player, then you need to shape up and stop doing their work for them. Let me do my job. Your day 1 scum reads are notoriously poor, yet you always push them with reckless abandon. Take off your scum-goggles, and slow down. In LOTR you had awful reads day 1, and solid reads every day after that(in the dead QT). | ||
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On October 15 2011 19:42 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I'm going to go with voting wiggles. I think someone we see as the best choice should come second and be pardoner, and I think greymist can secure enough votes to do that, and out of the others wiggles is my second preference. Why are you voting for wiggles, when he probably one of the most likely to be scum of the remaining candidates? Why are you ignoring Mig as a candidate? Also, you stated the main reason you were leaning wiggles was because he answered your questions, yet now as far as I can tell all the major candidates have stated their lynch intentions. What are your reasons for voting Wiggles now? | ||
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On October 15 2011 21:01 Arctocod wrote: Hello, I am Arctocod. Here are my observations. With no disrespect to Greymist, he is not a veteran and has yet to show himself to be excellent at Mafia. I find it extremely weird that anyone is supporting him into office, because there's nothing more dangerous to the mafia than a very good player who cannot be killed. This is something I'd expect experienced players to recognize. The fact that this is being ignored and a newbie is being voted into position is simply based on fear of what if either Radfield or Mig is scum. Here is something interesting. I think we can all agree that the trio of Syllogism, Mig and Sandroba is composed of some of the best players in this game. It is highly unlikely they'd support each other so openly if they were on the same scumteam, not to mention the possibility of those three friends getting mixed up in one team is very slim. So this means that at least 1-2 of them are pushing the Mig candidacy with honest intentions. After having spoken extensively with all of them I am convinced Syllogism is town, and I think Mig is town. Sandroba is a bit more shady, but he is pushing something logical. I do not mind people not agreeing about the conclusion that Mig is the best choice, I do however really not want a new player voted into office, that's directly pushing mafia agenda as the best way for mafia to deal with a strong town double voter is to make sure the position is badly manned. I want to iterate this: The second best choice for any mafia family after putting one of their own into position, is to put a weak player into position. I am especially surprised to see Foolishness cast his vote away like that. Someone who is as capable as he is at this game, someone who can tell scum from town with real ease, should definitely share his reads and explain to us why we should be voting the same way as he does. I fully agree with Arcto here. I even agree with players that Greymist is possibly town. But the main benefit that the elected roles confer is NOT the powers, it is the protection. Fact is, there is relatively little danger of having scum in the elected roles until the extreme late game(unless they get hero/vet, but that is unlikely). The main downside of voting in scum is that you lose the opportunity to protect a strong townie. NOT that you possibly confer a power onto scum. As long as the elected roles(particularly pardoner) are not allowed to reach the endgame, the best play is to vote in strong townies. If they are confirmed town in the meantime, even better. | ||
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Unfortunately this is the most important time to push my candidacy, but it can't be helped. I will try to answer PMs from work, and if it's slow I may be able to post in thread. I should be back in plenty of time to discuss the lynch, and to adjust if necessary. | ||
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Would you define your role as more pro-town, good for either(or vanilla), or pro-mafia? Role does not equal alignment, but some roles are borderline useless for mafia and it would be silly to ignore this fact. | ||
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On October 16 2011 06:12 kitaman27 wrote: Mig/Radfield, would you both be capable of being around at the deadline each cycle if you were to be elected the pardoner? I don't think there is a need for that. Protect said we can conditionally pardon. | ||
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On October 16 2011 07:03 wherebugsgo wrote: It's clear that we can't get Radfield off the platform. (or, rather, I can't) So, instead, I'd prefer Mig to 100% get the mayor role. So, I've switched my vote to Mig. I'd rather have Mig as Mayor and be assured that we know who the bodyguards are than have Radfield as mayor and be unsure. If you are more sure of Mig, then you should want him as pardoner Not to mention I have stated several times that my role has excellent synergy with the mayoral position. Besides, no scum elected role would try to kill the bodyguards in this setup, since it protects them from the other scum teams. | ||
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Im not sure if chaser is still the best lynch, though I freely admit I don't have a better candidate ATM. * no one has defended chaser, and Everyone seems to think he is scum. * if chaser is scum, I would expect more votes for jumbo since he is the only candidate nit set on lynching chaoser. I'm not saying I won't lynch chaser, but these two things raise red flags. I would like to discuss it when I get back. Thoughts? | ||
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Chaoser is still on the short list, but there may be someone better we can all agree on. | ||
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Anyways Heist, it's not so much that you looked particularly scummy, but I wanted an alternative to Chaoser, and with only a half-hour to scumhunt you looked pretty good, and were fairly acceptable to most people. The last thing I wanted was to not kill chaoser, and kill a player who others thought was town. Anyways, node won out based on my PMs with him mainly, and the fact that he was also an acceptable lynch to the 5 or 6 players I was discussing with. There is going to be a lot of action tonight, so we need to sort some things out. If you are a weak doctor, you need to either telegraph who you are protecting, or outright tell someone(at like 1-2 minutes before the deadline). Telegraphing is preferable however. Meapak has claimed inventor in thread, yet many players seem to have missed that fact(including node ). Medic/Doctor protection should be on him, since as long as he co-operates with us he should be allowed to live. However the likelihood of him getting his role stolen/swapped is like 99%, so maybe we don't need to let him live after all. Since if he gets killed after getting his role taken, it isn't a big deal.In fact, I just noticed this from the OP regarding thief: Neither you nor they may not use their role the cycle you steal from them. + Show Spoiler +I assume it's supposed to say Neither you nor they may use their role the cycle you steal from them. So that means that we may not get an invention after all, or at least that Meapak can give the invention to his scumbuddy, and claim he had it stolen. In light of this, I'm actually thinking we should NOT protect him tonight. Not sure yet though, but i'd like to hear some opinions on this. At any rate, a weak doctor should absolutely NOT protect meapak. As has been mentioned in thread, both Errandor and prp have tried for dreamflower and gotten vanilla. This means they are likely town, and likely bodyguards(I don't actually have the list yet), and hence a good place for the weak doctor to protect. Pending the answer to the question below, the jailkeeper should not target Meapak. What happens to the thief if the player he tries to steal from is 'jailkeepered'. Does the thief get another shot on a later night, or does he lose his power? I think the chances of one of the top 4 roles having the NRA member are fairly strong(other than meapak, who probably IS the inventor). Therefore, any role with the ability to visit should think long and hard before targeting any of Kenpachi, Jimbo, Deconduo. Can the framer cause vanilla townies to 'visit' the NRA member, and hence be killed? Given that node flipped America, yet we didn't have an anonymous nuke fired day 1, there is probably no politician. Or at least no politician on Node's team. I wouldn't be surprised if multiple teams went for an america/politician combo. (I don't think there is any evidence of vote tampering either, but I wouldn't expect it at this stage) Detectives have a slew of good targets, but again, I would be wary of investigating the #2/3/4 picks at this point. We're not in a rush to catch scum, and even if we were there are plenty of other people outside those picks worth investigating. Not to mention that finding confirmed town at this point is good as well. | ||
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You're right though, with America taken at pick 17 there were unlikely multiple teams going for an america/politician combo. | ||
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Meapak casually and without responsibility gives his thoughts on the setup Meapak decides to run for mayor Meapak trashes the very town-looking mig/radfield train and accuses me of being scum Meapak withdraws his application Meapak claims roleblock on his invention Let's go over your points. I agree that pre role-selection Meapak looked pretty shifty, specifically I had him listed as "poor logic/buddying/tentative" on my spreadsheet. But I had plenty of players like that, and pre-game PYP isn't exactly super conducive to making reads. Meapak ran for mayor, and then dropped out suddenly. He also outted that he was inventor, which was really dumb. When I PMed him about this, here was his response: I understand the risks of giving mayor to the top spot, however I have to at least try and run. Whether I role claimed or not, as the #1 pick I have no doubt I will be targeted by the thief and role swapper tonight. If I can get those bodyguards I won't have to worry about any of that. I at least wanna be able to get a couple inventions off before I die and bgs are the most surefire way. I will support if it becomes apparent I don't have a chance (don't write me off yet, the day has just begun), or if it's to deny Mig/Sandroba. I obviously pointed out that bgs don't work that way, but i can see how someone may think that, and it goes a long way to explaining both revealing his role in-thread, and why he then he didn't press his campaign. Point 3: I don't think it's fair to call me and Mig a 'train on day 1'. In fact, I would say the train was mig/syllo/sandro and I was initially very suspicious of it as well. In fact, until learning additional info, I was pretty sure Mig at least was scum, So i can definitely understand why players would be against that train. His response to me: Fuck well so much for that plan. I'm gonna have to think for a bit now. In any event, you can count on my support over the likes of mig and syllo. He DID support me, and followed through with his vote. In fact, him withdrawing his mayor application was very much due to my interference: Your chances of getting mayor are extremely slim. The risk of giving the top slot mayor is too great, as had already been discussed in the thread. You need to rely on medic protection, and hope that you get off the Police Radio(or other invention). Chances of you getting your role stolen or swapped tonight are very very high Given you think I am town, I could use your support. If I don't get an elected position, I am almost surely going to get shot tonight. There is more going on this game than simply what is in thread Palmar. You of all people should know that. The fact that Meapak was roleblocked is a null-tell. Yes he could be scum and didn't want to have to give his invention to me or mig(the only viable people to give to), but obviously if we DO have a roleblocker, Meapak would be the target. Lynching Meapak at this point is stupid. If he IS the inventor, we should clear out the scum in front of us first, and hope that we hit the roleblocker. That would go along way to confirming Meapak as telling the truth(though not confirm him as town). Do I think Meapak is town? Not really, but inventions are too important at this point to ignore. Foolishness is super scummy at any rate, though there may be better targets as well. I will have more time to look things over after work. | ||
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Yes, town is in an amazing spot right now. We have investigative roles and a bunch of KP roles at our disposal(3 dead scum last night + America). If everything goes right, we should cruise though this game , but there is no guarantee that everything will go right. We have a massive leak somewhere, as far too many people know far more than they should. Scum will be teaming up at this point, since they are dead in the water if they do not. Three targeted KP, with no scum dying and no scum overlap can get rid of town power roles and confirmed townies very quickly. Assuming that some of the 'town' KP is actually mafia, then that adds to our difficulties. Add in the potential roleblocker and there is possibility things could go downhill very fast. Now chances are none of this will come to pass, but I don't really want to feel like a moron when I suddenly die tonight or tomorrow night and town careens into a loss. All town players need to start assuming that the players they trust(despite not being confirmed) are potentially scum. We also need to get off IRC/Skype and start posting in the thread, or we may get to a point where we need to find scum without the help of blues, (and all the supposed reds are dead)and can't because there is no content in the thread. I think the case on Meapak is crap, and I think that foolish is a better target. This whole sheeping Meapak without cause is silly. In fact, there are a number of players I am willing to lynch over Meapak. Palmar, if not Meapak then who is your second choice. Foolish, get in here and show that you care enough to defend the actions you have taken this game. I want to hear EVERYONE'S thoughts on Meapak, and on who they want to lynch today and why. | ||
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Did someone on your scum team try for NRA Jackal? And you've narrowed it down to Meapak? Explain. | ||
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I don't follow... Spell it out for me cause sometimes I'm slow. How do you know he's NRA? | ||
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Meapak is Red. We have a confirmed check on him, and he is scum. He is also a confirmed rockstar, so we need to lynch him, and use our night-time KP elsewhere. It's possible that Meapak was framed(he is the #1 pick), but his play has been pretty scummy all game, and the reason he was checked is because he was already suspected. My defense of Meapak earlier -> False Bugs attempt to start an alternate wagon on Sandro -> False Massive leak in the circle -> False At this point scum need to lynch townies, and cannot afford to bandwagon another scum player. My hope was that when presented with either a Meapak lynch or a Sandro/Bugs lynch, we would see people avoiding Meapak. There was simply no need to burst into the thread and yell confirmed red, when the thread was already suffering. Hopefully any townies out of the loop see that. Jackal, you were wondering why the role-swapper would go after the #2 pick instead of Meapak. The answer is simple, Meapak is also a Yorkist, and was on the same team as Kita. At least that's the going theory. Meapak is Red ##Vote Meapak_Ziphh | ||
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On October 19 2011 07:49 Meapak_Ziphh wrote:Talk about over reliance on blues. Taking a red check at face value is not 'over reliance on blues'. Sitting back today and not trying to out scum would be that. I sat on this for 36 hours, and tried to see what i could make of it. You are scum. You have a gun. Consider that if you were framed, the framer would have to have made you one of these roles: Bad Santa, Vig, Day Vig, Capitalist, JOAT, Ace, BC, Dreamflower, NRA Member. If the framer chooses to have his target show up as any of the roles listed above, then he counts as having a gun for Bullet Bill That is the only way you could have shown up as having a gun. Bad Santa, Vig, Day Vig, Capitalist, Ace, BC and Dreamflower are all stupid frames, since #1 pick would never take them, and none of them are inherently scummy. That leaves only JOAT and NRA member. NRA member doesn't make sense, since presumably the detective may be able to figure out if they should be dead depending on the nightkills(if the dead players are vanilla or non-visitors). That would run the risk of completely wasting your frame. So that leaves JOAT. Tell me Meapak, why did the framer want you to look like the JOAT? I can see why the framer may want to change your role to something more scummy. Both Role Cop and Capitalist rely on finding scum based on role. But JOAT!? That isn't scummy at all, it's basically a null-read as it is great for Town or Scum. Assassin, Vote Rigger, CPR Doc, HERO are all exceptional and believable frames if you want the first pick to look red. Not to mention, half the thread already believed you were the inventor, and the other half already KNEW you were rockstar, so why bother framing you and changing your role? You are scum Meapak. | ||
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You also had 6 votes when I was still defending you! You were practically getting lynched before the dt check was already revealed(3/4 of the way through the day). | ||
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The inventor has invented Bill Murray! Holy God | ||
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On October 20 2011 20:49 Scamp wrote: As for House Chezinu, unless there's some way for there to be a cult in the game I think we should just ignore it. I agree, but if we assume there are still 5 scum left, that changes things immensely. At this point I think we need to operate under the assumption that there are only 3 scum left, and we will figure things out if the game is still ongoing. However, last night the bullet bill checked Jimbo, and got back a result that jimbo was NOT carrying a gun. But if the Bill Murray invention affects flips, it could have also effected results. In fact, it is possible at this point(with a run-away town victory looming) that Jimbo and Foolish used the invention to actually change their alignment, and the mods allowed it. Once the OP gets updated with how many townies and how many scum are left, I will begin to worry. We are still waiting on the results of one check, but at this point I think our remaining 3 scum are: Supersoft Jacuzzi Sinani My preliminary thoughts are that we nuke Super, and lynch jacuzzi. But once we get the results of the check back we will know more. SCAMP, don't nuke yet We need to know if a hider(supersoft) can be killed during the day via nuke.Does anyone dispute the fact that these three players are likely scum? | ||
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Wiggles, Chaoser and Cheese were all Lancaster. On night one, Chaoser and Cheese were both killed. Chaoser was likely to be shot, and Cheese had an important role(Godfather). Who was Wiggles protecting that was more likely to die than Chaoser, and more important than Cheese?? | ||
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But it seems unlikely to me that any of those 3 players(super, jacuzzi, sinani) were more important to protect than either Chaoser or Cheese. So perhaps I'm missing something. Only option would be if Super flips Framer or something. But at pick #18..... | ||
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Scamp, please nuke Supersoft. On October 21 2011 05:47 supersoft wrote: same thing with radfield. He didnt answer any of my PMs This is the one single PM you have sent me all game, sent after I asked Protact if we can kill a hider during the day. : you wanna kill me or why do you ask such a Q? Are you really put out that i didn't bother responding? YES, that is the obvious response. You have made zero effort to PM me this game, so don't talk about me not answering any of your PMs. No hard feelings man, you're just scum. In other news: ##Vote Sinani | ||
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If Foolish was scum, he was almost certainly Lancaster. That means 1 team is dead. It also explains the missing medic protection from Wiggles on Night 1. He is the only possible player that makes sense for Wiggles to protect. Jimbo I am not sure however. The BB check returned no gun, and his play this game has been fairly pro-town, except for the invention. There is no way that a town-aligned player would create something like BM, and not create something that directly helps town. If Jimbo was scum, he was York as he was for sure not lancaster(got cheese and chaoser killed) and when Foolish was discussing with Decon it seemed apparent that Decon and Jimbo were not on the same team. Foolish told me the night before he died that Jimbo was getting Framed. In fact, here was his final PM: Since you're not on skype I'll give you some of what I've found out so far. It wasn't my intention to give this to you so late in the night. supersoft is a Tudor. I say this with a 100% probability attached. The remaining Tudor is of the people who picked 1 as their first number (heist, Erandorr, Jaccuzi, sinani, and myself, to be scientifically correct). Also Jimbo is getting framed tonight. Right now I am fairly confidant that Heist, Errandorr and Jaccuzi are town. Foolish is dead(and Lancaster), so that leaves Sinani as the last Tudor. Foolishness was trying to show how 'helpful' he was, so he was feeding me bits of info. I think that with Super and Sinani dying, we're going to see the last of the Tudors. Lancasters are already dead, so that leaves either 1 or 2 Yorkists left, which means only 1 scum KP remaining. Foolish mentions a framer in his PM, and that would certainly explain why Jimbo had no gun when the BB checked him. However if there is a Framer I don't know who it would be. Tudors don't have a Framer, because they would have made Meapak or Decon look town on Night 1. Lancasters don't have a Framer because they are dead, but also because they already had cheese as godfather. So that means if there is a Framer he is York, which fits with the fact that Jimbo was apparently framed. There are very few people at this stage who even COULD be the framer, so we should be able to nail them down quick. Just thought I'd do some theorycrafting We'll see how it all pans out. With all our townside KP and investigations, by morning we should have the last of the scum either dead or caught. | ||
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14 of 28 players remain ? of ? Commoners remain 1 of 4 Lancastrians remain 2 of 4 Yorkists remain 2 of 4 Tudors remain ? of ? Chezinuites remain 2 of 3 Bodyguards remain Assuming the hosts aren't screwing with us, we have 5 scum left. That is too many scum for my poor spreadsheet to handle Time to recalibrate. This also means we started with only 14 townies, vs 14 non-town players..... | ||
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Greymist doesn't have a gun, so KP is def the last scum. Throw in the towel Ken and save us 48 hours | ||
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What in the devil did the Bill Murray invention do? And who was given it... Foolish? | ||
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This game was all about PMs and real-time chat. Honestly, at this point I feel chat like Skype/IRC are much much more powerful for town than PMs, and PMs are already a huge advantage for town. Several players I was fairly convinced were town based on my interactions in skype. Was I fooled by Sandro? Absolutely. But I talked very little with Sandro after day 1, and certainly didn't trust him enough to give him the important information. He knew the roles of me/mig/syllo, but that was pretty much it. Simply from the kills that York chose you can see he was mainly in the dark as he never knew Dreamflower, CPR Doc, bodyguards, etc. Also, my conversations with Sandroba went down precipitously as the game went on, Day 0 we talked alot, but by Day 2/Night 2 we were basically not talking at all. Honestly Sandro, I think you could have gleaned a lot more info from me had you pushed for it. I don't really think I'm very good at PM games though, as I am far too trusting out-of-thread and far too willing to trust roleclaims. For instance Sandro got mad at me Day 1 for not following his plan, yet I didn't even realize till days later that Sandro did not follow his plan either, and that his claim of going for Rockstar didn't make sense at all(not to mention he knew it was a safe claim, given he was the rockstar). By the time I figured this out, Sandro was basically already narrowed down to being scum, so it didn't matter. Here's how things played out in general from my perspective. Day 0 I was fairly convinced Sandro was town. Originally I thought he looked pretty scummy, just based on the brevity of his plan in-thread. After talking with him though, I felt he looked quite town and I felt his plan would actually work pretty well. Ironic that he clashed with another scum player in his role selection(GF). Though it seemed like day -1 and day 0 were about plans etc, it was really about establishing activity levels and feeling players out. Day 1 was all about pushing for mayor for me. I had gotten Bullet Bill, and knew I could be a powerful force if elected. My original thought was that I could investigate my bodyguards(who should be vanilla) and if they had a gun then they were certainly scum. Turned out that strat was never necessary, but it was my original thought(though killing ones own BGs is somewhat counter-productive) I sent over 100 PMs this game, and on Day 1 I was pushing every single player I knew to vote for me. Sandroba, Mig and Syllo were all pushing for Mig to be elected, and by the time I got started he was already ahead. I knew if I sat back and just waited I could very well not get elected. So I got busy with direct PMs: Kitaman, Foolishness, Meapak, Scamp, Deconduo, prplhz, Node, Jimbo, Bumatlarge, as well as discussions with Heist, Hiro and Errandor who all came to me. Of the players I PMed, 6 of 9 were scum, but that didn't really matter. If I gave them a good reason to vote for me, and scum hate going against a good reason. Eventually 8 of the 13 players voting for me were scum I was working for the last 11 of 12 hours of Day 1, so by the time I got home I had very little time to figure out who to lynch. Chaoser was the absolute consensus at that point, as basically every single player i talked to wanted him lynched. With him claiming both medic and busy IRL(and I always like to give busy IRL people a second chance) he was basically off the table in my eyes. If he really was a medic, scum would likely shoot him anyways. So this left me grasping for a new lynch. I had to find a general consensus, since if I didn't lynch Chaoser and instead hit a townie I was going to lose a lot of credibility. I had about 5 convos going at once and it eventually settled on being Heist or Node. Originally I sent in Heist, but after re-reviewing my PMs with node, I felt he was the better option. I rechecked all my ongoing skype convos, and 4 out of 5 were good with node(only chaoser wanted heist). Here is the PM convo, starting at the bottom: + Show Spoiler + Well, Meapak claimed his role in the thread. So presumably the information is there for those looking Mig, Syllo and Sandro are doing an extremely poor job of creating thread presence. I posted my thoughts on them in the thread, and have had extensive conversations with Sandro and Mig, though mostly Sandro. In fact, Sandro would be my strongest town read right now, but he is doing a poor job explaining himself in thread. He's taking an approach of "how could you townies be so dumb as to think i am scum", which is obviously a bad approach. That being said, he is one of the people i would LEAST like to see killed. Right now both Chaoser and Wiggles seem a little off to me. Neither are making a very strong show of actually wanting mayor. After Jimbo posted his big posts today, I felt fairly certain that he was scum, given the way he backpedalled off of both me and sandro. Casting suspicion on me and then apologizing, building a case against Sandro(and running on a platform of lynch sandro) and then claiming his intent was not to paint Sandro as scum.....? I also do not trust meapak, which is part of the reason I wanted to have him make a Police Radio. It is a known quantity, and can't be exploited or hide his scum team. He seems to be uninterested in the Police Radio, and is trying to brainstorm other possibilities. Keep on thinking of good inventions. I plan on bullying meapak into creating whatever invention is most fittingly pro-town, as I simply don't trust him fully right now. Original Message From Node: First off, I was not aware that Meapak was Inventor. You may wish to be careful with that information in the future. I'm thinking either yourself or Jimbo are going to get my mayor vote. I'm iffy on the whole Mig / syllo / whoever else is somehow "confirmed innocent" (because, well, they aren't) -- I'd rather vote for the people that actually look to have their head on straight in-thread. I'm pretty supportive of the "lynch sandroba" platform, considering that his retorts towards various accusations have ranged from ad-hominem to spouting "his words are being distorted" as a first line of defense. In your opinion, do any of the mayoral candidates look particularly scummy? The police radio is pretty damn good, but I'd consider holding on to it until we have a better idea of the number of detectives out there. A good invention fits the circumstances -- a good inventor won't just make the "most OP" item, but come up with whatever helps the town the most at the time. When I invented it, it served more than one purpose. In addition to showing everyone the DT checks, it confirmed that a few people weren't lying about their roles (most notably GM about being the vote checker). At the time, people were saying Inventor should just make bulletproof vests and be done with it. Fuck that shit. However, I'm not sure what a "better" invention would be right now. Information is definitely key -- maybe something that reveals every role that got taken, so we know what to look out for? It could also semi-confirm any early roleclaims. I will definitely think on it some more. I'm actually kind of worried about confirming townies with the police radio. With its incarnation in PYP:I, it broadcasted everything in-thread. I worry that so early in the game, it would serve to give the mafia good targets more than anything else. Of course, I'm assuming that our DTs mainly check townies. I dunno, I just think it could have negative consequences at this point. Hide nested quote - Original Message From Radfield: What are your thoughts on the mayor race? Who are you considering voting for? I could use your support, as I think it is key I gain the protection of the elected roles. I also intend on pressuring Meapak into inventing a police radio for tomorrow, as I think it is the single best invention we can get. Anything which can confirm townies en masse is huge for us. I'd like you to rack your brain though, and see if you can figure out an invention that would work even better in this particular set-up. The main things that tipped me here were a) He was not reading the thread very carefully b)He spent more time talking about inventions then the game c) He never finds a good invention, only naysays the Police Radio d) He never responded to me, and never thought up a good invention. I was most certainly NOT sure Node was scum, and any case I had against him was flimsy at best. However he was the better pick than Heist, and town got extremely lucky that he was America. In one fell swoop, we removed America from scum, and handed it to town(Scamp). Massive break for town. Prp was also on the table for a while, but at some point Hiro roleclaimed to me which meant prp was either extremely lucky, or had actually gone for Dreamflower. No chance I was lynching a player who had gone for dreamflower. Night 1 Hiro had contacted me and roleclaimed Dreamflower to me, and I kept that information secret. Since Jimbo had confirmed Chaoser as scum, I spent most of the day chatting with Chaoser trying to glean his thoughts. With 2 town KP known, and two town DTs known, me and Mig were able to organize extremely effectively. I didn't know the CPR doc, and Mig didn't know dreamflower, and that was the way we wanted it. End result was two dead scum(Chaoser and Cheese), one scum caught(Meapak), and one confirmed town power role(Scamp). Day 2 After the Day post(3 dead scum) town was in a great position. Once Ken outted Deconduo, and he was nuked, we were in an amazing position, because I still had the Meapak red result. We felt the best way was to try and get the thread going, and generate some discussion, as opposed to just outting the DT check. Our thought was that scum would absolutely not want to lynch Meapak, and would turn to another player like WBG or Sandro instead. As it turns out we DID catch someone trying to do this(prplhz), but I was too caught up in him being confirmed dreamflower(or really lucky ) to notice it. The other scum basically avoided the bait, but so be it. At this point everyone was basically sure Wiggles was scum, but we had Meapak so there was no rush.By the end of Day 2, with 6 scum dead, America/CPR/DF/BB/DT all in town hands, we were feeling pretty untouchable. This was my list of scum at that point: Wiggles, Jimbo, Foolish, Supersoft, Jacuzzi, Sinani Then: Heist, Kenpachi, WBG, Sandroba Then the dreamflowers: prplhz, Greymist, Errandor Night 2Heist had claimed Parity Cop at this point, so the thought was to have Mig check heist, and heist check Jacuzzi. I would check Jimbo, and we would shoot Wiggles(certainly scum) and Foolish(very likely scum). There were several reasons I thought Foolish was scum. *His general inactivity from my point of view. He was claiming he was very active, yet from what I could tell, and the players I spoke with, he was actually doing very little. Of course this is because he was working in scum circles, and I was working in town circles. *His mayoral vote was very suspicious. On one hand he was telling several players he thought I was likely town, yet on the other hand he was telling different players that it was essential I not get elected. This was part of his response to me asking him why he was pushing Greymist: Why is "giving something to the town" so important? Are you still acting like this is any other game of mafia? The elected positions are not about finding someone who is not scum, and they are not about finding someone who will scum hunt the best. *Most of my suspicion however came from direct dealing with him however. Foolish kept dripping me tidbits of mostly unimportant info, or info I already knew, and claiming to other players to 'ask Radfield how helpful he was being'. It seemed he was trying to pump me for information, while giving me what I felt was fairly irrelevant or already known info. -He wanted to know how Cheese died(Asking about townside KP in my eyes. Not to mention I already suspected Foolish of being Lancaster, so in my mind this was asking how his buddy died.) -He told me Tudors had killed Kitaman(Something that was irrelevant to me as I already assumed one of the other scum teams had killed him. This actually made me more suspicious as I couldn't see why a townie would really care which scum killed a different scum, so why did he think it was important i knew?) -Asked me about Hiro's alignment, specifically not his role, just alignment.(Fishing for DF in my eyes. I already knew that by process of elimination, Dreamflower could only possibly be one of a few players, since prp had publicly claimed he went for DF. Foolish seemed like he was trying to make it look like an innocent question by stressing only alignment, when in fact a simple answer from me would confirm him as dreamflower) - Told me Deconduo was 100% Tudor scum. (Keep in mind this is AFTER Kenpachi had already posted this in the thread, so I was honestly a bit confused as to why Foolish thought he was even being helpful with this tidbit. However it did show me Foolish wasn't properly reading the thread, since he didn't know KP had revealed Decons family, nor did he even realize NKVD could do this) These were pretty much the four items we discussed, and all four made me think Foolish was scum, though I see now that from his point of view they wouldn't have seemed so scummy. Palmar had also had a convo in which it seemed Foolish had basically claimed scum:http://pastebin.com/jNR7xVau In fact they were both pretty much fishing each other.... This is the PM I recieved from Foolish the night he was killed: Since you're not on skype I'll give you some of what I've found out so far. It wasn't my intention to give this to you so late in the night. supersoft is a Tudor. I say this with a 100% probability attached. The remaining Tudor is of the people who picked 1 as their first number (heist, Erandorr, Jaccuzi, sinani, and myself, to be scientifically correct). Also Jimbo is getting framed tonight. This was supposed to be the big relevation of information he was going to give me, in case he was killed. Supersoft was basically already 90% for sure scum to me given that he had claimed hider, and given his in-thread actions, and more importantly given the list. He also mentions the remaining Tudor is one of 5 players..... so big deal. Lastly is the mention of a framer. At this point, given the confirm-able roles in the game, the framer could only be an extremely select few people. The fact that he could know of the existence of a framer, and who that framer was targetting seemed like something only scum could know. At this point I was sure he was just feeding me bullshit, and trying to show how 'helpful' he was. I was fairly convinced he was scum.My suspicions of Jimbo were far less certain. By his in-thread actions and talking with him in PMs he seemed town, however he had a couple strikes against him: *A confirmed scum dropped inventor to him. *He did not make an invention Night 1 When I spoke to him on Night 2, I told him it was essential for him to give the invention to me or Mig, and that it was essential he give us a dayvig shot. My reasoning was that we did not need investigative inventions, since we already had scum quite narrowed down. What we needed was KP to eliminate them. A dayvig would have given us that ability, as well as hold us accountable at the same time since it is entirely public knowledge. For me or mig to abuse it would have been very difficult if one of us was scum and the other was not. Also, giving an invention to any other player ran the risk of that player being shot, whereas Me and Mig were assured protection. Jimbo refused, and I told him point blank that I would lynch him the next day if he did not comply. With that he kinda agreed, but then came back 5 minutes later and said Protact would not allow a dayvig bullet as an invention, because it was 'too public'. I thought this smelled like BS, so I PMed protact asking if a nuke was an acceptable invention. Protact said yes, so I pushed Jimbo to invent a nuke, telling him Protact would accept it. At this point he did an about face, and basically told me that being so bossy was no way to get compliance. To me this seemed like a complete about face: First he was ok with a dayvig but then it wasn't allowed, the moment I found him an alternative he changed his tune. Eventually he agreed to a nuke, but refused to give it me or Mig. At this point I was sure he was scum, as he was acting so illogically in regards to his invention. Once Bill Murray was invented, it was obvious to me that he was not pro-town, as no pro-town player would make something like that. Day 3 Several things contributed to the added confusion regarding House Chezinu, and the thought that Jimbo/Foolish were scum in disguise. Obviously the main one for me was that I felt Jimbo/foolish WERE scum, and that if they weren't my spreadsheet couldn't fit 5 more scum. However, I also received my Bullet Bill check 12 hours late, when everyone else got their checks back right away. The OP was also not updated to show how many players were left on each team. These two things made it feel like the mods agreed to let Jimbo/Foolish flip random, but not quite sure how to approach the ramifications of that decision. Once Jimbo and Foolish were flipped as town, we could basically narrow down the options: Assuming no framer: Mig/Radfield/WBG had all killed or participating directly in killing members of each team Heist, Scamp, Jacuzzi had all been checked Prp, Greymist, Errandor all went for dreamflower Hiro was confirmed dreamflower, and had followed his shots. Sandro, Kenpachi had nothing confirming them but gut reads Supersoft and Sinani were almost surely scum by process of elimination, as it would be very difficult to keep finding scum among the confirmed players. A Framer could have messed things up, but Framer was very unlikely to be at the bottom of the draft list. It's possibly Jacuzzi was the Framer and framed Heist, and Heist faked his parity cop check, but unlikely . Night 3Once Super and Sinani both flipped scum, we were in the clear. We had 3 investigations and 2 KP, so that was pretty much GG even if only one had flipped scum. Just like PYPInsane, this game was almost over by the time role selections and mayor picks were done. Scum again avoided many of the best scum roles, either for fear of rolechecks, or fear of overlapping. After Night 1 flipped, and certainly by the time I revealed Meapak had been checked, scum needed to gamble and team up. If they just went their own way, they would surely be torn apart by town, which is exactly what happened. The Night 2 kills overlapped on Syllo(vanilla) and took out Jimbo, a player likely to be lynched. If they had teamed up and co-operated, town still loses an all out KP race at that point. Co-ordinate their shots to kill Scamp and Bugs, and begin to eliminate Dreamflower and Bodyguard candidates. Eventually they would have to fight amongst each other again, but they needed to severely cripple town first. Town: Jimbo - Inventor Mig - Detective WBG - CPR Doc Scamp - Copycat Syllo - Vanilla Radfield - Bullet Bill Hiro - Dreamflower Dropbear - Bomber Man Bum - Vanilla Arctocod - Ace Jackal - Ackbar Greymist - Vanilla Foolishness - Vanilla Heist - Parity Cop Erandorr - Vanilla Jacuzzi - Vanilla 6 great roles, 4 decent roles, 6 vanilla Tudor Meapak - Rockstar Decon - Bulletproof Supersoft - Hider prplhz - Vanilla All defense all the time. I certainly understand the strategy, but I think with picks 1/4/16/18 they could have done much better. Soooo many good options. Taking something like NRA at #1, Assassin at #4, capitalist/rolecop at #16, etc. I think in this setup defensive roles were good for town, but only so-so for mafia. Lancaster Kenpachi - NKVD Cyber - Godfather Wiggles - Medic Chaoser - Pupeteer Good roles if they hadn't been decimated. I think Kenpachi should have used NKVD to connect with other teams though. Not to buy town cred, especially since two of his team were dead. York Sandroba - vanilla Node - America Kitaman - Role Swapper Sinani - Vanilla 2 good roles despite low picking slots Anyways, great fun this game, though I'll admit we got lazy at the end. Big thanks to all the hosts for putting this on, PYP is so much fun. I'll edit any mistakes i've made later. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Extra funny that Day 1 I was cautioning Sandro not to be overly trusting of Mig. My point was that he was basing his whole read off of Day 0 skype conversations, and that those were really poor things to go off of. I then proceeded to accept Sandro as town based off of Day 0 Skype conversations I forgot to mention, there was some excellent infiltration by town of scum circles. WBG, Palmar, Foolish and probably Jimbo all did a good job of wringing info out of scum. On night 3 WBG handed us our two kills(prp and Sandro) by convincing Sandro he was scum, basically ending the game right there. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 24 2011 07:31 bumatlarge wrote: Ah you were the BB radfield, great minds think alike! Indeed, and you probably didn't realize it, but you basically confirmed yourself when you told me you went for BB. It was funny because of how careful you were being as to whether or not you got it, when of course I already had it I think things like IRC impersonation are outside what I would generally consider the limits of the game. At that point you are playing a different game than what I initially signed up for. After this incident, it's highly likely no one from this game, or anyone watching this game, will get caught again, but I would expect that if this continued en-mass, many new players would get burned. How do people feel about things like IRC and Skype in general? Personally I feel a PM only game would be far more fun than a PM game with real time chat. Certainly more balanced in favor of scum. Many players here also talk a lot outside of mafia games, which gives them a massive head start towards deducing their buddies alignment. Do people prefer real-time chat in games? ALSO...... NO MODKILLS!! I can't remember the last game I played with no modkills. Sure sinani was cut a bunch of slack, but still.... no modkills | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 27 2011 10:00 Palmar wrote: I was a bit of a liability too, because I got sidetracked in my gotta catch 'em all pokemon hunt for roles, and stupidly aggressive behavior which ended in me getting killed. The victory is all radfield's, syllo's and mig's. Various other players contributed, but they were in the middle of things with powerful picks and good communication. As much as my ego enjoys the praise, I'm not sure how much credit we actually deserve. I would say the one thing me and Mig did very well was getting elected, as that was a huge piece of the town victory puzzle. However, Jimbo finding out Chaoser/Cheese was extremely important, as was Bugs leaking it to me and Mig. If Bugs doesn't leak that, than I'm left groping for a target for Dreamflower, possibly losing him Night 1. Not to mention me and Mig were able to co-ordinate our checks and not overlap with Bugs' CPR shot. The circle was simply given an ungodly amount of power roles to co-ordinate. Me and Mig didn't really do anything special, we were just working with the info that Palmar and Bugs were giving us, and appropriately co-ordinated CPR/DF/BB/DT and later America + Parity Cop. The reason town dominated was not due to me/Mig/Syllo playing exceptional mafia, it was simply that the resources we had, combined with poor mafia shots, made the game a rout. We worked down our list and had 3 of 7 mafia wrong on day 2(Jacuzzi/Foolish/jimbo or heist instead of Ken/Sandro/prp), yet still went through the game with only 1 miss. | ||
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