EPT
This game looks awesome.
Pick Your Power Interesting!
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
This game looks awesome. | ||
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Radfield
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Radfield
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Radfield
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If a Mayor is a defensive role(a vet) and is shot, does his veteran status get removed, or does a bodyguard die. Likewise if a Rockstar is shot, which bodyguards die first? Is this the complete list of players with guns(for Bullet Bill): Bad Santa, Vig, Day Vig, Capitalist, JOAT, Ace, BC, Dreamflower, NRA Member. Can Rock Star, Vet, Martyr, Meth Man, NRA Member be roleblocked and lose their defensive power for the night? If Mad Hatter is shot when roleblocked, do his bombs still go off? Or does it just stop the moving/placing mechanic? Can an assasin target vanilla townies for a hit? eg: Ver Vanilla Does a politician who buys a nuke or kinglynch have to actually post in the thread to activate the power? JOAT say six abilities, but only lists 5. If a thief tries to steal the role of a vanilla player, does the thief lose his power or is it refunded for another try the next night? Bodyguard roles are chosen from vanilla townies. Will an agent of chaos be added to the group of vanilla townies when randomly selecting the bodyguards? Or does an AoC get priority for becoming the bodyguard. If an Agent of Chaos blows up, and the mayor/pardoner is a defensive role(say a vet), will the elected official die, or just take a 1 KP hit? Does Qatol have the ability to mislead role checks but not alignment checks? This seams like a rather strange ability considering that the power has to be posted in thread(##ban: ) which means the role will out itself, leaving no need for a role check. If someone claims vanilla town, can BloddyC0bbler shoot him? Also, I assume that BC can only shoot at night. How long will the pardoner have to use his abilities after a lynch? Can he use it on Showtime!'s and the vote riggers abilities? How long does a Paranoid Doc/Jailor/Roleblocker abilities last? 1 full cycle? If a Paranoid Doc or Jailkeeper protects a Hero/Assassin/Ackbar(or any other daytime role) will that player lose their special ability for the next day? If a tracker follows a vanilla mafia, will they always be tracked to the KP target? Or will only one of the 4 mafia members 'perform' the kill? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 02 2011 05:46 GMarshal wrote: note to self, dav-vigi rad so that I have less competition for mayor. :-P and redff :-( I'm pretty sure my vest blocks dayvig hits.... you can still be pardoner though | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Player List: 1. Foolishness 2. Jackal58 3. Greymist 4. sinani206 5. sandroba 6. wherebugsgo 7. Sevryn 8. syllogism 9. Drazerk 10. kitaman27 11. GMarshal 12. Mr. Wiggles 13. hiro protagonist 14. chaoser 15. InserT_FreQ 16. bumatlarge 17. heist 18. meapak_zipph 19. Arctocod 20. prplhz 21. Radfield 22. JACCUZISPLAT only a few more! | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 02 2011 06:31 syllogism wrote: So if a scum team gets the agent of chaos role, there is no way to prevent him from becoming a bodyguard and thus potentially killing all the other bodyguards + mayor + pardoner when they feel like it? Seems rather obnoxious, though with 3 competing mafia teams they might not be inclined to "waste" one of their players I don't think so. My guess is that the agent of chaos gets added to the mix of eligible bodyguards(vanillas). Then out of that pool the 3 bodyguards are randomly selected. I don't know that for a fact though. It's only a guess. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 02 2011 06:31 GMarshal wrote: Its probably not terribly effective against nuclear warfare though. Also want to be one of my PM buddies? ^_^ Sure do. | ||
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Radfield
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Of course, killing off strong players is worth more than numbers, and the mayor/pardoner are likely to be strong players. | ||
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Radfield
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If a Rockstar is shot, do his bodyguards die in his place? Or are his bodyguards the same as the mayor, in that he cannot be hit until his bodyguards are dead? What happens if the Assassin correctly targets the mayor(when there are still bodyguards alive). Or is that simply not allowed? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
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Radfield
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Radfield
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On October 12 2011 03:14 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Just realized I've never played a PYP game during the picking phase, isnt it now time to come up with some convoluted picking plan? Once alignments go out, we will have plenty to discuss. Plenty.... | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
Today we have one very specific goal: Try to organize an effective picking strategy for town. This is my fourth PYP game, but that doesn't necessarily mean much, as this is a wildly different set-up. 15 Town vs 12 Mafia means that plans which were excellent for past games, no longer necessarily apply. Also, several roles which were extremely powerful in mafia hands, are now a much lesser threat to town(as mafia have a good chance of targeting each other). My strength as a player is not necessarily coming up with iron-clad plans, and I don't expect this to be iron-clad. I need input, and I almost always need help with the details. Please don't nit-pick details at this stage, and if you see a problem then look for a solution. First off, lets talk about previous plans and if they will work in this set-up: A 'No Pick' List: The idea behind a no-pick list is we come up with a list of roles(mafia favoured roles) and put them on this list. Any player found with one of these roles(via use of power or role-check) is more or less treated as red. Originally this was combined with Bullet-Bill to give him maximum effectiveness. However, this type of plan was always somewhat flawed, and doesn't allow town players to take roles in an effort to deny mafia. Role Denial: Having Town players take heavily pro-mafia favoured roles in an effort to keep them out of mafia hands(recruiting GF/CPR doc etc.). Typically this is achieved by assigning certain slots(top or mid-top) to prioritize and take these roles. By knowing which pick has taken a certain role, this allows us to keep tabs on OP roles like Inventor or in past games, CompVig. This is one of the most important things town can do in my opinion. Even if we organize in no other way, WE HAVE to have several top picks take certain roles as denial. However, the key is figuring out which roles are actually so dangerous as to worry about. Ver's PYP Plan: -top 6-7 picks take the best town roles and defensive roles. -picks 8-11ish take the 'accountable' roles (caller GF, thief, inventor, cpr doc mainly) -rest pick whatever This approach is taken because the mafia cannot guarantee more than 1 member in the top 6+ picks, while they can guarantee any number of members in the middle or bottom picks. This is a good plan, but notice the bolded section. Given that there is a 15 vs 12 ratio in this game, we cannot guarantee by any means that more than a few of the top 6/7 roles will be town aligned. Also, Ver has picks 8-11 taking the 'accountable' roles(role denial) but that works less well in this set-up. If player 8 tries to take a role, only to wind up vanilla, he CANNOT blow the whistle without roleclaiming vanilla, opening him up to both the assassin, and Bloodycobbler roles. Assigning Picks: In PYP2 I tried to organize a system which would land us as many investigative roles as possible by giving everyone a % chance to take a certain investigative/defensive or miscellaneous role. I'm not going to go into detail here, as with only 15/27 players town aligned, this makes a mediocre plan very bad. ________________________________ What are our picking strategy goals? How do they differ from past PYP games? Goals: * Accumulate as many investigative roles as possible into town hands. * Use the top picks to take roles that need to be held accountable(first) and roles that are extremely powerful(second) * Make a priority list of town roles That's it. No complicated schemes, no major pick assignments or no-pick lists. Mainly townies will be choosing for themselves which role is best. The main way in which this game differs from previous PYP incarnations is that most of the roles are far, far less scary for town. CPR Doc or Comp Vig(or any role which gives 2 or more KP) are normally heinously frightening roles for town to deal with, as they straight up double mafia KP. However, KP roles(in mafia hands) in this set-up have a decent chance of killing off other mafia players(1 in 3 chance of hitting mafia at beginning of game). While these multiple KP roles are still something to worry about, they are no longer game breaking. Second, we no longer need to fear the killer combos that mafia can summon up. Assassin+Role Cop or Capitalist!? Politician + Kingmaker or America!? No longer all that frightening, because mafia have an excellent chance of overlapping their picks. Three teams are all vying for the same power roles and the same combos, which means the chance of Team A getting politician and Team B getting kingmaker fairly decent. At any rate they cannot guarantee them even if we ignore the combos. _______________________________ Accumulate as many investigative powers into town hands. Blues don't win mafia games... analysis does. Don't rely on DT's to do the work. Right...RIGHT? Unfortunately... kinda wrong. In this game we have an inordinate amount of scum to catch. Every townie in this game is looking at 14 town players and 12 mafia..... it's brutal and it's precisely why we need investigative roles. Defensive roles are also important given that we will have at least 3 KP(probably more like 5) per night, for most of the game, but I expect players to mix these in on their own initiative. There are two main reasons we need to prioritize dt type roles this game: First and easiest: Mafia don't want them. Most of the investigative roles in this game are far, far more powerful for town than for mafia. Chances of mafia prioritizing them are low, which means town should have their pick of the litter. If a mafia team uses one of their picks to deny an investigative role to town, this puts them at an immediate disadvantage compared to the other two mafia teams which took all pro-mafia roles. Investigative roles, unlike Defensive or Offensive roles, are much less likely to be taken, and hence give us a greater chance to actually get blue roles. In no way am I suggesting we only try to take Investigative roles and ignore the others, that would be foolish. Instead I'm simply suggesting that we need to make DT-Roles a higher priority than Def or Off roles. Second: Behavior analysis is going to be extremely tough this game. Typically when a player leads lynches against multiple mafia, or shoots a mafia in the face, we can (at least temporarily) cross them off the list of potential mafia. Not so this game. Voting lists, night actions and good reads will not prove a townie. Every mafia player has 8 other players to try to find and kill to buy town-cred. This is great for us as town in a way, but unfortunately makes it extremely difficult to find mafia. This is precisely why any role which can correctly identify mafia is extremely important to us as town. In this game, investigative roles are in many situations going to trump behavior analysis. Use the top picks to take roles that need to be held accountable(first) and roles that are extremely powerful(second) This is where we need a lot of discussion, and where I am most hazy about the optimum strat. Roles that need to be held accountable: Inventor, Assassin, Thief, RoleSwapper. CPR Doc and Vote Rigger are on the outskirts. JOAT is so good it doesn't necessarily need to be held accountable, but needs to be talked about. Inventor: Absurdly powerful. Basically won the game for town in PYPInsane by giving town a listcheck, and a Police Radio. I have no doubt that this role in mafia hands would be just as deadly. There is absolutely no way to ensure that this role ends up in town hands. None. Therefore, it is essential that we know who has it. All inventions are announced publicly, which means that if that player misuses the role, we can lynch/vig him. Unfortunately this leaves the Inventor wide open to be sniped immediately(1 minute into day 1) by the Assassin. Therefore it is important we know who the assassin is. PICK #1+ Show Spoiler + Inventor should be making list checks, and only list checks. With twelve mafia in this game, the potential for game breaking list checks is off the chart. In a normal game, list checks look like the following, and are extremely overpowered: 2/5 mafia 1/5 mafia 2/7 mafia 3/10 mafia 0/4 mafia etc. However, in this game we have potential for checks that look like this: 4/5 mafia 5/5 mafia 7/9 mafia etc. A single check like that would blow this game out of the water for town. No other potential invention power can do something like this(though Police Radio came close). There do exist a framer and a godfather(who changes both his own and another's alignment) and that could reek some havoc on the listchecks. Also, if the inventor gives his listcheck to a mafia player it spells trouble as well. No matter what we choose though, we should try to decide in advance what invention the inventor should give out, as this gives us the ability to keep tabs on him. Assassin: We need to know who has this role. First off so they can't kill the inventor. More importantly though is that the ability to roleclaim in a PYP set-up is very very important for town. Think of how many town players in PYPInsane roleclaimed: The listcheckDT, bulletproof, modern detective, tracker, role cop, both inventors, multiple vanillas, etc etc. This role directly hampers towns ability to organize and gather information, not to mention that if combined with Capitalist, Role Cop, NKVD or Extractor it becomes extremely powerful for mafia. PICK #2 Thief and Role Swapper : These roles need to be accounted for only because of the fact they can swipe the Inventor or Assassin. If we are committing to keeping tabs on those two roles, then by default we also need to assign the Thief and Role Swapper. PICKS #3 and 4 CPR Doctor: In a normal PYP set-up, this is an essential role to block, as it adds immensely to mafia kill power. However, in this set-up it is much less scary to town. First, there is a chance that any shot will kill mafia instead of town(~33%). Second, there is a chance that the CPR doc will actually SAVE someone. With likely 4 or 5 KP per night the CPR doc will get progressively more likely to start making saves. Combine that with the fact that separate mafia factions will be trying to kill the same strong townies, and the chance for a save climbs even higher. NOT WORTHY OF A PICK Vote Rigger: In most set-ups a vote rigger is extremely powerful in mafia hands. Not this game though. Why not? We have a Pardoner in the set-up. Not only that, but Protactinum has stated the Pardoner has ability to set conditions on his Pardon in the event he is not around. This means the Pardoner can state he will always use his Pardon if a vote rigger's powers are activated. Poof, vote rigger is hard countered before the game has even begun. NOT WORTHY OF A PICK JOAT Very Very strong. Excellent for either mafia or town and as such needs to be a top pick in the hopes it finds a home in town hands. PICK #5 + Show Spoiler + I realize players do not like having their picks dictated, and I realize that part of the fun for people is to get roles they will have fun with. However, with a 15 vs 12 split, we seriously need every town player to be a team player. This plan means that we are allocating the first 5 slots particular roles: 1. Inventor 2. Assassin 3. Thief 4. Role Swapper 5. JOAT Keep in mind however, that the top picks are very likely going to be mafia players. Each mafia team can co-ordiante their picks, therefore they are far more likely to wind up with with a unique number, and hence more likely to be near the top of the list(Which is why JOAT is down at #5). This is both a benifit to us and a detriment. It's good for town because it forces mafia to take the picks we allocate to them or expose themselves if they do not. It's bad for us in that a mafia player can let a role 'slip' down the list for a buddy, and we'll never see it again. However I don't think this is a huge downside, since we get to kill the mafia player who lets it slip. Meaning the mafia have to abandon a player simply to get a strong role(putting them at a disadvantage to the other mafia teams). It's not ideal for town, but it's better than the alternative.+ Show Spoiler + Let's assume that Incogito has the first pick, and that town has assigned him to take Inventor. However, he takes a different role instead, and lets Inventor slip to the #7 slot, where his mafia buddy Qatol is waiting and picks it up. If at any point in the game it becomes obvious that the inventor is mafia, we simply lynch Incognito. This doesn't kill the inventor, but it at least kills a mafioso. Remember that the alternative to the assigned picks is having no idea where the Inventor is to start with. This means that if anti-town inventions start showing up we don't even get a confirmed mafia out of the deal. Make a priority list of town roles As I see it, these are the strongest roles for town, in relative order, and by category: Investigative: 5Jack 5Inventor 5Detective 5NKVD 4Parity Cop 4Capitalist 4Bullet Bill 3Role Cop Watcher- NO Tracker - NO Defensive 4Medic 4Rock Star 4Witch 3Jailkeeper 3Bulletproof 3Doctor 3Meth Man 3Veteran Martyr - NO Hider- NO Hero - NO NRA Member - NO(unless you want to claim it night 1) KP 4Vigilante 4Dreamflower 3.5Day Vig 3.5America 3.5King Maker 3Mad Hatter 3Bad Santa 3BC 3Ace Other Qatol Copy Cat The rest is basically non-optimal roles. This gives us a townie pick list that contains these roles. If you want to pick something else, that's fine, but I see these roles as the best roles for town(In very rough order): Jack Inventor Detective NKVD Parity Cop Doctor Rock Star Vigilante Dreamflower Capitalist Medic Witch Day Vig Bullet Bill America King Maker Jailkeeper Bulletproof Bad Santa BC Ace Qatol Role Cop Meth Man Veteran Mad Hatter Copy Cat This gives approximately 25 roles for the 15 town-aligned players. The rest of the roles are not really worth taking for townies. The further down on the pick-list you are, the further down this role list you would pick, always keeping an eye towards the investigative roles though(which are a bit too clumped towards the top for this strat). This presumably gives us a fairly decent chance of getting as many quality blues as possible. _____________________ What does this plan do, and what does it not do? *Assigns the top 5 players roles which are dangerous, and are essential for town to know their whereabouts. *Gives town a general priority list for making picks, hopefully minimizing overlap and maximizing investigative roles. * Does not attempt to block all strong mafia picks, instead allowing mafia to cockblock themselves and get more vanilla players, putting them at a disadvantage to town Have a problem with the plan? Great! Lets talk about it. Don't pop in and snipe 1 little problem though. This is something that needs to be sorted out, and needs to be sorted out before the pick list is revealed. Input is needed. ------------------- Some notes on various roles: Janitor: Not in the least bit frightening. We already learn way less from a flip since mafia will be attacking mafia all over the place. Losing 1 flip is nothing to be afraid of. With an investigative role heavy line-up, town is strongest at night anyways. Showtime! and Vote Rigger:Completely nullified by any competent pardoner. Neither of their abilities should ever go unpardoned. Doctor: Excellent in this set-up as you are either normal, jailkeeper, or weak... And you are told if you are weak! A weak doctor can act as another investigative role. This doesn't work if you don't know your sanity, but in this case you do. Step 1, telegraph your protections "I think blank should be protected tonight", Step 2, you either die and get flipped as a weak doctor(implicating your breadcrumb), or you live and have a confirmed townie. Simply a fantastic role. NRA Member If you take this role as a townie, you absolutely have to claim it day/night 1. The chances of tearing our blues apart are way too high. By claiming you do not even open yourself up to hits, as you cannot be roleblocked. This role should be treated as a buffed up BP Vest. Politician Kinda scary, as there is a decent chance the mafia can team up a kingmaker/america with the politician. However, this means they are using two of their powers for 1 extra KP. I'm not sure how scary that really is considering the other potential powers. Not to mention they run the risk of overlapping with other mafia teams, and making themselves vulnerable to role checks once they activate their powers for evil. Bomber Man Somewhat scary, but fairly likely to hit other mafia members, and fairly likely to explode prematurely and not do maximum damage. Not all that potent in this set-up. Cupid Useful for mafia only to kill a strong defensive role. Other than that it only adds a single KP. Vigilante With two shots, this is probably one of town's best offensive weapons. Dreamflower Pointless for mafia to take, so players at the bottom of the list should think of taking this role(no need to take it high). Again, telegraphing here is important(but be subtle) as your death can confirm an innocent. Roleclaiming and asking for medic protection is possibly worthwhile in this situation. | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 11:54 chaoser wrote: Woot woot, let's get this started! An important note to everyone, the Pardoner is basically a Prince of Darkness x2 and while there's a lot of KP in this game, there's also a lot of defensive roles in this game as well. A mafia team with medics+Pardoner with Hero as his ability would be horrible for town. As such, they'll probably fake an aim for mayor and actually want pardoner instead. I learned my lesson in XXXIX with GM -_-. We need to get rid of the pardoner outright as early as possible. Pardoner is a threat, but if they ever use their power inappropriately they get lynched. Scary in the endgame, and needs to be eliminated before we get down to 6-8 players, but for now it is an excellent insurance policy against the Vote Rigger and Showtime!. On October 12 2011 14:14 Cyber_Cheese wrote: I don't like the idea of re-thinking the pro-town stance. We might need to make it harder to gain credit for pro-town play, but we shouldn't overhaul the system. Pro-town play is still pro-town, but mafia have more incentives than usual to do it. Multiple candidates for the lynch is better than usual. Mafia attempts to rig the vote may land on another mafia member, and then we get a ton more information than in a standard vote-rigging scenario. Until someone lynches a player from each mafia faction, there is no pro-town player. Obviously if a player is actively lynching scum, then they won't be on the chopping block, but each and every player is still a suspect until they kill someone from all three houses. THEN they get to the point where in a normal game we would give them likely townie status. Look at my play in PYP1: Lynched two mafia and was successfully organizing town.... as the serial killer. The same approach for mafia exists in this game: Legitimately lynch other scum players, use your town-cred to cruise to victory. On October 12 2011 14:19 Cyber_Cheese wrote: The watcher definitely isn't as powerful as usual, but it's still useful to have some idea how many people visited a target, and then see how many claim to. I'm thinking that would work better with small numbers, eg. confirming to yourself one or two people at a time. Watcher is one of the worst roles in this game. It's only redeeming feature is the potential for Bum to write us a story. On October 12 2011 19:16 Mig wrote: I am fairly sure in personality that is all the Ace role had to do. Because we went through this scenario where everyone had to say the words I am town before. If that's true, then the Ace role is extremely powerful for town. Questions: Can Cupid target the NRA Member at night without dying? For the purposes of the BC role, what constitutes a roleclaim? If I say "I tried to get DayVig but didn't get it", does that equate to a vanilla role claim? If I state I have bodyguards(but am not the mayor) does that equate to a Rock star role claim? If I state I have an investigative role, and all the other investigative roles are dead, is that a roleclaim? Approximately where is the line drawn? | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 19:49 Cyber_Cheese wrote: Assigning roles to numbers is a decent plan, and for a few roles (eg. inventor), it sounds great. I see two problems. First and foremost, the situation where a role doesn't actually get chosen occuring, giving the mafia a role they can potentially safe claim throughout the game because no-one else should have it to counter claim. This seems like a problem more for people with very mafia friendly roles like GF. (The perfect example.) The other problem I forsee is with mafia knowing everybodys role. Medics can only protect so many people each night, and mafia know their targets in advance. I suggest two workarounds. 1) That if this goes through we work out which roles we can easily keep accountable first. (eg. the inventor has to invent something town friendly, america has to declare it's targets in the thread, anything we can check their actually doing what they say they are fits here) 2) We don't apply this rule to everybody. I don't know how to work this one, but essentially we cant let the mafia know who all of us are without being sure we know all of them. Since we can't do the latter, it seems like giving them complete information shouldn't be done. Remember that the mafia can coordinate their picks, so it's more likely that they will rank high on the list. I'm really not sure what you mean. If a role doesn't get chosen how do mafia get a safe-claim? Not to mention that there is no such thing as a safe claim anyways since role is not an indicator of alignment. How will mafia know everybody's role? We're only talking about assigning 5 picks(4 if we drop the JOAT) which means mafia only know 4 players role, and no one elses. The rest of the picks are all up to the discretion of the individual. It's possible i'm just not understanding you, but it's possible you need to re-read my post. | ||
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Radfield
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On October 12 2011 12:28 JimboSilvers wrote: Since it is going to come up, I'll say this now. Almost half the player-base is Mafia. This makes denying powerful mafia roles nearly impossible, and not cost effective. The best course for the role picking phase will be for us to focus on getting good town roles, and letting the various mafia parties fight among themselves for the good mafia roles. (Denying each other good combos in the process) On that note, I want to know if you guys think it's a good idea to make a coordinated list of powerful town roles, or a bad idea. The obvious upside is that if we coordinate our picks then we have a higher chance of getting more roles, but at the cost of letting every mafia knowing the general location of certain power roles. I for one am against this sort of ordering. It's called Pick YOUR power, Not Pick THEIR Power. I'll pick my own role, thank you. I understand this sentiment, but I strongly disagree with it if taken to the extreme. Particularly, what do you think of the idea of having the top 4/5 picks be allocated, with the other 23 players able to use their discretion? It allows us to keep tabs on several roles, minimizing their potential damage to town. Thoughts? Also, I thought you were the flame/Ver/Incog smurf.... but those three are our hosts so.... | ||
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On October 12 2011 20:29 Cyber_Cheese wrote: As for the 'safe' claim part: Imagine a mafia is assigned to be thief. Suddenly, they have no incentive to choose thief, and they know no-one below them can pick thief for fear of being vanilla. They now have a role they can claim throughout the game while secretly using any other role they feel like. And that's assuming that we can hold thief/role-swapper accountable. If we don't predetermine every bodies roles, it only protects the other pre-determined accountable roles from being swapped. Situation: Thief is town, Assassin is mafia. Assassin claims to have it's ability stolen while previously using it pro-town (On the other factions.) In a later game scenario, it might be important that the town keeps everybody alive it can, and can't afford to kill the thief incorrectly before realising the assassin lied after the thief is lynched. Scenario 1 is perfectly acceptable. The point of the pick assignments is to keep the Inventor and Assassin as known quantities. If the thief wants to steal someone else's role, so be it, at the very least everyone will know where the thief is. Situation 2 is also acceptable, and certainly better than the alternative, which is not having any idea at all where those important roles are. Also, JOAT is not there so it can be held accountable, It's mainly assigned a spot so we don't have 5 different townies trying to grab the role. Also, it doesn't allow one of the top 4 spots to let their pick slide, and instead take the JOAT(the most powerful role in the game after Inventor). Kingmaker is already held accountable by virtue of the publicness of the power. Not to mention, assigning Kingmaker to a slot would allow outrageously easy politician snipes. On October 12 2011 20:32 deconduo wrote: Assigning picks has had reasonable success in other PYP games, however this game will be different. The high number of mafia and them being split into factions means that if we assign the top 5 roles they will almost certainly be killed off pretty quickly. Regardless of who gets Inventor, Assassin etc, there will be at least 2 mafia factions looking to kill them off. If there are a lot of mafia in the the top 5 this works out in our favour, but otherwise it just means that powerful townies die at the start. Something worth thinking about at least. Having the top 5 roles be killed off quickly is fine. The other option is to have no idea where Inventor and Assassin are, and that is most likely a worse situation for town. Keep in mind that with the ability to co-ordinate their picks, mafia are more likely to end up in the top few slots than townies. This means that any snipe attempts into the top of the list will likely result in dead mafia. Also, if we need to keep the Inventor around we can, as we will likely have multiple protection roles(or at least the threat of multiple protection roles). | ||
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Radfield
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We need to get some things straight concerning assigning the top 5 picks. From the responses so far, it seems like very few people actually understand the purpose. The purpose is not to stop mafia from getting the roles(Inventor or Assassin), that is impossible. The purpose is not to be 100% sure that the top 5 picks are exactly what we want them to be, that is also impossible. The main purpose is to keep tabs on the Inventor and the Assassin(possibly the framer), and ensure that someone is held accountable for their actions. YES, a player can take a different role and allow Inventor/Assassin/Theif/etc. to drop to a scum-buddy, BUT THAT DOESNT MATTER! Because if the role is used improperly we lynch the player who was supposed to have it. Sure, that doesn't stop the role, but it at least allows us to lynch a scum out of the deal. The thing is that you HAVE to consider the alternative. If we have no assigned slots at all, what happens when the inventor/assassin starts shitting things up? What is our recourse? Fact is, we're forced to go on a merry chase amongst the top picks to find him, and are unable to use roleclaims to solve the problem(Assassin has infinite kills and can kill immediately). Here's the scenario, with two possible outcomes: The inventor starts making anti-town moves: Option 1: Since we have assigned the inventor to spot 1, we know exactly where to look for our lynch/Vig. We kill the player in slot 1, and either kill the offending inventor, or kill his mafia buddy who let inventor drop. Worse case scenario: 1 dead scum with a scum inventor on the loose. Option 2: We have not assigned the inventor to any particular slot. This means the Inventor is probably in the top 3 spots, but may have fallen much farther. We spend a night or two hoping we have a role cop/detective/Capitalist in our mix and that they figure out who the offending party is. Conversly we just start lynching and vigging straight into the top of the list. Worse case scenario: 0 dead scum, wasted role checks, wasted time in discussion, scum inventor on the loose. Someone please please tell me where I am going wrong!? There is simply no ADDED downside to allocating the top slots to dangerous roles. It is NOT meant to be a guarantee that we become impervious to these roles, but it gives accountability to the roles which can be game breaking. THERE IS NO DOWNSIDE! + Show Spoiler [Sandro's Plan] + On October 12 2011 23:44 sandroba wrote: Okay time for Sandroba's Plan (TM). I've thought long and hard about this game and the ultimate goal for town is to focus on surviving and let the bad guys hopefully and inevitably kill each other. This game will tend to balance itself since the currently winning team will always be focused by all others. Town has a HUGE advantage over all other teams by outnumbering and "outroling" them. Mafia info advantage is extremelly nerfed since they only know their own teamates. So how to exploit this? We focus on picking information/protection/survival roles. We are surely going to need a little bit of kp too, but that is secondary. By limiting where on the player pick order kp can be chosen we buff 4 (capitalist/rolecop/bulletbill/tracker) info roles, basically making them aligment checks or close to it. We can hold people that chose kp accountable by knowing where they are. We shall not try to deny any roles to mafia and let them fight for them and get insta-nailed when caught having one of those roles. My list would be the following, really simple (of course inventor is considered prot/info): Picks 1-20: Rng between info and protective. You can't pick anything else and if you are found having any other role you will get lynched. We win this game by sheer numbers and outsurving mafia. Mafia will have a hard time shooting in this list since anyone can be vet/bulletproof/rockstart/jack etc. That keeps our medics/dts alive and that's the ultimate goal. Picks 21-28: Your choice of kp/utility or prot/info if you are feeling lucky. Kp recomended since we might need to get rid of scum in a hurry. No role denial will take place. Mafia teams will fuck each other over without our help. If you are found havinga ny mafia oriented role in any position you WILL be mercelessly murdered (i.e. Voterigger/showtime/framer/extractor/janitor/etc). Capitalist/jack is a minor issue with this since he will show having a gun to bullet bill checks but I can live with that and I can leave with that and we can clear that shit up in thread/pms and luckly we won't even have to deal with it. For this to work I need full support on this from everyone and FoS on those pesky mafia always trying to ruin my imba plans. Of course I accept criticism/sugestions to improve this plan =) The good: * Focus on info+ defensive roles * Avoid KP roles among certain pick slots to strengthen our investigative roles(Capitalist, Bullet Bill, Role Cop) The Bad: *There is not really a plan here, more of just a general overview. However, it basically lines up well with my priority list of town roles in my large post. The Ugly: *Strange refusal to acknowledge the benefits to having assigned picks. Your argument as I can see it is this: On October 13 2011 00:12 sandroba wrote: Since we have assassin/bc I think it's a bad idea to assign any roles. Let mafia fight for them and deny each other. and that somehow not making a list allows mafia to 'fuck themselves over'. These are both incorrect. First, assassin is not a threat by defenition since we know where it is. Even if it 'slips' to a different slot, the assassin has no guarantees that the players actually followed the accountability list. Second, BC is not a threat, as a player actually has to roleclaim, they can't simply state several days earlier that they will follow a particular plan(not to mention BC is just a dumbed down Vig, it's not a threat anymore than any other KP role). Lastly, the idea that not making a list will cause mafia to 'fuck themselves over'. I strongly disagree with the logic behind this. There is just as high a chance for townies to get vanilla by trying for the inventor/assassin/JOAT as there is a mafia player. In fact, the argument could be made that by leaving everything in the air, We will end up with more vanilla townies who went for the powerful roles than mafia, since mafia can co-ordinate among 4 players. Also, by removing 5 or 6 high powered mafia roles from the mix, this actually causes MORE chance for mafia to get vanilla by overlapping with other mafia teams. We effectively reduce the pool of good mafia choices, meaning there are less high-quality roles for mafia to pick from, meaning we end up with more vanilla mafia. Honestly, we lose nothing from assigning the top 5 or 6 slots. All we gain is some accountability for certain roles. Some players are scared that by assigning these roles the players will become a target for mafia.... guess what, the top players already ARE a target for mafia. Not to mention that the top picks are more likely to be mafia players(since they can co-ordinate), which means the mafia will likely be shooting at other mafia if they try to snipe the top picks. Also, this means any mafia who land in the top slots are automatically exposed to the town influence, and are forced to play along or risk exposure. Arg. Someone please articulate a downside to this plan compared to the plan of assigning no slots at all. __________________ On October 13 2011 00:09 Meapak_Ziphh wrote: Woot let's do this. Radfield, what do you think about having the top five picks publicly claim their roles? It does open them to the BC role but at the same time we have absolute acountability and we have clear medic options. It would be pretty simple to organize the medics (i.e. if you're pick 5-8 you protect pick one, 9-11 you protect pick two). I'm worried atm that we'll get strong roles only to have them immidiately killed off. Think about it, if all three mafia teams shoot into the top, we could have just lost our inventor, jack, and town alligned assassin. Getting the top picks is great but we need some way to protect them otherwise it's pretty useless. If they claim it gives us two things. One, a clear oppertunity to organize medics. Two, if the mafia gets in the top spot it forces them to take the role assigned to them by the picking plan or risk being Ace'd. Having people claim is a good way to prevent the mafia from letting a role slide to a scumbuddy. This way, even if the mafia gets inventor or something similary powerful, we'll be able to kill them off without a problem. Top 5 roles don't need to roleclaim, that would be redundant since they presumably already followed the picking plan. If we don't follow the picking plan, then we cannot roleclaim, since assassin will chew us up. We can protect players without them having to roleclaim, as we should have a decent amount of prot roles. I'm not actually sure i'm picking up your meaning though. How does roleclaiming stop mafia from letting a role slide to a scumbuddy... presumably they can just lie, no? On October 13 2011 00:18 chaoser wrote: This is made worse by the fact that there are different mafia factions in this game so things get even more confusing with them all going for the same roles and possibly same strats and soon you'll have to deal with the mess that happened in PYP2 where a traitor said someone picked his role in the top 5 and we ended up losing two days to that alone except this time it will probably be worse when we try to control the role list. Just because town made a mistake once does not mean we are doomed to repeat it. This is NOT an argument against assigning several picks, this is an argument against playing poorly. On October 13 2011 00:18 chaoser wrote: Sandroba hits the nail on the head. This game is about outlasting, not about trying to win the game as early as possible as town. The longer the game goes on, the more mafia will have to start worrying about each other and the more information and time town has to figure everything out. Let the mafia deal with fighting over roles, we should focus on getting as many protective roles as possible. Look at how LOTR played out: Two medics basically bought town enough time to lynch the last three mafia. I'd say protective roles are #1 picks and then investigative roles and then KP roles. Mafia will probably be going for as many KP as possible to try to overcome our defensive roles if we play like this so we can just lynch anyone suspicious that also has KP. This I completely agree with. Investigative + Protective, with a dash of KP mixed in. That is towns best set-up. However, we can have that and still assign some slots at the top to keep the most dangerous roles accountable. The two ideas work well together and are not mutually exclusive. [B]On October 13 2011 00:30 GreYMisT wrote: In PYP Insane the inventor died almost imediatly because he was forced to roleclaim, he was only ever able to get the police radio because of the copy cat role. I understand that the inventor is stupidly powerful, but won't everyone knowing who he is just cause him to have a giant target painted on his head? or is his only goal to get the 1 list check made before he dies? The one thing i disagree with in Radfield's plan is the no-pick list. This seems to be a great way to give scum a list of roles that won't be taken, leaving them open to being picked. On that same note it is important to establish a list of roles that townies would want to prioritize over others. As far as sandroba's plan goes, I like it. If town can get most of the protective roles than we can just survive the crossfire until mafia numbers become more adequate to deal with. Unfortunately, you're guilty of not reading my post properly. Never did I suggest a no-pick list, in fact I stated it was a poor idea. As far as the inventor, YES it makes him a giant target. So what? There is a decent chance he is mafia, but beyond that we will have plenty of protective roles. If the Inventor starts pumping out Police Radios, then obviously he will be protected. Besides, you need to balance this against the potential huge downside of having a mafia player grab the inventor and us not knowing where or who he is. This is the risk that comes with not assigning any picks. | ||
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