EPTAnyway none of this changes the fact that lots of jubjubs are being stupid.
The New TL Mafia Metagame - Page 2
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
Anyway none of this changes the fact that lots of jubjubs are being stupid. | ||
flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
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bumatlarge
United States4567 Posts
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
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Incognito
United States2071 Posts
The main problem is that mafia are too timid in the thread and aren't pushing their agenda like they should. A mafia with a strong thread presence should be able to easily deflect votes and lead the town in circles. This doesn't happen because lower level mafia are too scared to get out in the spotlight and primarily focus on individual survival. This is a mistake, as you are likely leaving a lot on the table if your team leaves you out to die while you singlehandedly engage the masses. While yes, having your team defend you might increase future risk, you cannot discount the value of having larger numbers for a longer time, especially in the early stages of the game where numbers and KP are critical. While survival will win you games, you can't just have your whole team cowering in fear while you get picked apart little by little. Hiding and hoping you don't get noticed is a recipe for disaster. As mafia, you have to be actively involved in misdirection, or you will eventually get destroyed by the growing wave of information that the town acquires. So how do you determine how to defend yourself and push your agenda? Obviously there are the townies who are dead set on getting you lynched, but these aren't as common as you think they are. Do your attackers truly know that you are mafia, or are they arriving at the right conclusion using faulty assumptions and logic? If its the latter, then you have a definite chance. You can often sway public opinion just by being persistent and making good arguments. Focus on the logic of your attacker's arguments. Are your attackers misrepresenting your posts? Are they using neutral or pro-town signals and claiming that they are anti-town? Do they logically derive a motive from your posts, or do they just make assumptions and leap to a conclusion without any sound basis? These are easy ways to pick apart your attacker's arguments. Just be persistent, as a townie should be looking at all the evidence that points to his innocence. On tunneling: This works the same way as building a case against mafia. When you are trying to get a mafia lynched, you don't argue against your target, as they're obviously not going to change their minds and agree with you that they are mafia. Instead, you spend your energy trying to convince others to vote for said mafia, while generally ignoring your target's pleas. Likewise, when you are being attacked by a player who just won't change his mind, just ignore him and focus on what is likely easier to control - the opinions of other townies. There's no need to fill the thread with 20 pages of you trying to convince the other person of your guilt/innocence. Just because one person is dead set on killing you doesn't mean that others feel the same way. In a sense, the best way to resolve a tunneling scenario is where each party (attacker and target) ignore each other and convince others to their point of view. A quick point about lying: When you're lying or trying to hide something, you tend to want to keep your story straight so that you don't contradict yourself. You limit yourself to certain statements so that you don't have to keep as many details straight. However, when you're innocent, you aren't as worried about consistency, so you will actively volunteer any and all evidence that could potentially help your case. Put yourself in the shoes of a townie. If you are being attacked, don't worry about consistency. Use any and all information to your advantage, and don't be afraid to pull information from multiple sources. Mafia are generally more afraid than they should be about pushing their agenda. Since they know they're guilty, they think townies will catch on quicker than they actually do. The truth is that the town generally has to sift through a lot of information, and the pieces don't fit together as clearly as they do when you are mafia and already know what the answers are. When you are mafia, you subconsciously filter out information that you know leads to the wrong answer, and are paranoid/nervous when people start poking their noses in the right direction. But do the townies really catching on to something, or are they just exploring their possibilities? Chances are, unless they've really found the answer, or are close to finding absolute conviction, you have a chance at convincing them otherwise. Better yet, act preemptively and instead of waiting for people to catch on to how your behavior points to your guilt, take advantage of other paths of behavior that lead to what you know is the wrong answer and convince townies to waste time exploring those options. The key is to spread doubt, overload the town with information, and keep the town guessing while you push your agenda. It doesn't really matter if you are eventually caught, as long as your death doesn't incriminate other fellow mafia. | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
 .Many people here are first time/new players. I read a lot of games but my first time really playing was on TL (and it shows - I admit my scumdar is pretty shoddy). You can't expect them to be pro and up to your standards already, TL isn't a Mafia specific site so most people playing are probably pretty new  . I'm very ashamed of my SNMMV play, though in my defense I wasn't really paying that much attention to it (sorry GM).That said the scum play has been really, really bad in the few games I've played in so far. | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On August 07 2011 07:41 Incognito wrote: So how do you determine how to defend yourself and push your agenda? Obviously there are the townies who are dead set on getting you lynched, but these aren't as common as you think they are. Do your attackers truly know that you are mafia, or are they arriving at the right conclusion using faulty assumptions and logic? If its the latter, then you have a definite chance. You can often sway public opinion just by being persistent and making good arguments. Focus on the logic of your attacker's arguments. Are your attackers misrepresenting your posts? Are they using neutral or pro-town signals and claiming that they are anti-town? Do they logically derive a motive from your posts, or do they just make assumptions and leap to a conclusion without any sound basis? These are easy ways to pick apart your attacker's arguments. Just be persistent, as a townie should be looking at all the evidence that points to his innocence. You should try playing in a game as mafia and seeing how well this works...but maybe I'm just bitter On August 07 2011 08:56 Curu wrote: Why not try to help people get better then instead of repeatedly telling them they suck .Many people here are first time/new players. I read a lot of games but my first time really playing was on TL (and it shows - I admit my scumdar is pretty shoddy). You can't expect them to be pro and up to your standards already, TL isn't a Mafia specific site so most people playing are probably pretty new . I'm very ashamed of my SNMMV play, though in my defense I wasn't really paying that much attention to it (sorry GM).That said the scum play has been really, really bad in the few games I've played in so far. It's because it's recurring that Ace is saying these things. Frankly it seems there are just so few people who care. Post game discussion seems to be occupied by the same 5 people each game. | ||
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Ace
United States16096 Posts
The ability to READ is the problem here. You were in that shitty SNMM with VisceraEyes where the level of reading was terrible. Do you honestly think my ability at the game is what made me realize what was going on, or was it the obvious "Ace is actually reading what people say" reason? If several people have to keep saying "thats not what was posted" or "read the thread" then chances are your being stupid. Ignorance is for the newbies, they just don't know. Stupidity is for people that know, or are being told what to do and refuse to heed the advice and that is where this thread is directed. @Foolishness: Everything Incognito said works though. Even if a player is correct, if the reasons are wrong there is always a chance of escape if you're Mafia. Even better if they misrepresent what you say, because Towns with lots of good players will turn around and lynch them instead. | ||
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
Foolishness, you were pretty obvious in PTP as Mafia even without getting outed for faking a post restriction if for no other reason than how little/useless your contributions were when people knew you were a good scumhunter lol. IMO it's much harder for a great Town player to play as scum because people expect you to do something worthwhile. If your Town play is horrible you can just do stupid shit all game and not get called out for it. | ||
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:20 Ace wrote: Getting better is moot here. Experience DOES NOT MATTER. The ability to READ is the problem here. You were in that shitty SNMM with VisceraEyes where the level of reading was terrible. Do you honestly think my ability at the game is what made me realize what was going on, or was it the obvious "Ace is actually reading what people say" reason? If several people have to keep saying "thats not what was posted" or "read the thread" then chances are your being stupid. Ignorance is for the newbies, they just don't know. Stupidity is for people that know, or are being told what to do and refuse to heed the advice and that is where this thread is directed. @Foolishness: Everything Incognito said works though. Even if a player is correct, if the reasons are wrong there is always a chance of escape if you're Mafia. Even better if they misrepresent what you say, because Towns with lots of good players will turn around and lynch them instead. Yeah I know, I'm just bitter because it felt like only one player was reading the things I was writing, and the rest of the town didn't bother to care ^.^ I'm not one to give up in any situation, mafia XXX is proof of that  | ||
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Meapak_Ziphh
United States6786 Posts
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Curu
Canada2817 Posts
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DropBear
Australia4411 Posts
People aren't always going to listen to you in game. It happens. Even if you are some kind of Mafia god, they aren't always going to listen to you. On August 06 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote: stop being a pessimist ace, there is a ton of people on this forum willing to try to improve, instead of telling us why we suck, tell us how to improve. add content to your mafia guide, that'd maybe help mafia stop sucking, and in turn force towns to improve too. What he said. | ||
Ver
United States2186 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:20 Ace wrote: Getting better is moot here. Experience DOES NOT MATTER. The ability to READ is the problem here. You were in that shitty SNMM with VisceraEyes where the level of reading was terrible. Do you honestly think my ability at the game is what made me realize what was going on, or was it the obvious "Ace is actually reading what people say" reason? If several people have to keep saying "thats not what was posted" or "read the thread" then chances are your being stupid. Ignorance is for the newbies, they just don't know. Stupidity is for people that know, or are being told what to do and refuse to heed the advice and that is where this thread is directed. @Foolishness: Everything Incognito said works though. Even if a player is correct, if the reasons are wrong there is always a chance of escape if you're Mafia. Even better if they misrepresent what you say, because Towns with lots of good players will turn around and lynch them instead. Yeah that SNMM game was one of the few times it was too painful to read the thread. When I saw your argument against Palmar day 1 it was really obvious even skimming that you were town and he was mafia and it seemed like town would have an easy win. Yet the voting list was everyone on some random doofus and you on palmar. And then you get lynched unanimously day 2 LOL. The only other game I've read a bit of recently was arkham and in that it seemed like the mafia team didn't really have a good idea of what they should be doing. They were just like 'sup lets hang out' and then got lynched repeatedly because they weren't ready and couldn't prepare in time. Reactionary instead of preemptive. Town did reasonably well for what they had it seemed. On August 07 2011 07:04 kitaman27 wrote: The Ver smurf/Foolishness normal had annul lynched day one I believe, but that was pm's too. That didn't have anything to do with pm's I just caught him in a logic gap in the thread. On August 06 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote: stop being a pessimist ace, there is a ton of people on this forum willing to try to improve, instead of telling us why we suck, tell us how to improve. add content to your mafia guide, that'd maybe help mafia stop sucking, and in turn force towns to improve too. After the first few dozen exertions of fruitless effort the thought of 'why bother' must have surely crossed his mind. Maybe this is just late night insanity but would it be useful/interesting if there was like a 'round table' of top players who discussed a game while it was going on (observing) in some private qt or forum and then shared it with everyone after? | ||
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Palmar
Iceland22633 Posts
And Curu, the case on amber was in no way weak, I didn't have time to convince everyone, but what I highlighted in my posts had me pretty convinced he was scum | ||
GMarshal
United States22154 Posts
On August 07 2011 18:05 Palmar wrote: SNMM was a really, really bad example due to the number of inexperienced players in that game. And Curu, the case on amber was in no way weak, I didn't have time to convince everyone, but what I highlighted in my posts had me pretty convinced he was scum 3 maybe 4 players out of 12 were new. The rest were at least semi experienced. Ver I love the round table idea | ||
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flamewheel
FREEAGLELAND26782 Posts
Also darn nice essay Incy. | ||
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Hesmyrr
Canada5776 Posts
I never seriously read any other mafia games with 24hr/48hr timeline so I don't know how quality of others compare to here, but the inexperienced players might simply not be misunderstanding the level of attention required. I myself thought quickly skimming the thread once a day was enough in the past. Either way Round Table idea sounds epic. | ||
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citi.zen
2509 Posts
The round table idea is awesome, from my perspective as a consumer. As a teaching tool, I am pretty sure that as Foolisness mentioned, it will be read by the same circle of players. Stil, I'd love to see it happen. | ||
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BloodyC0bbler
Canada7876 Posts
On August 08 2011 05:29 citi.zen wrote: Most players don't need to work on "finesse" items. It's about deciding to put in the effort to read, write and think critically. Too often that minimum commitment is not there. The round table idea is awesome, from my perspective as a consumer. As a teaching tool, I am pretty sure that as Foolisness mentioned, it will be read by the same circle of players. Stil, I'd love to see it happen. round table idea should be built of players who aren't neccesarily just "top tier". Active players who play consistently and have decent results should be on it if it is done. Most of the players in what is considered the best players of the forum barely play now and part of me feels that a core group of players set to analyze a game behind the scenes as it happens should be built of people who actively play as well as those who are considered top notch. | ||
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