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Even dumber than 2 years ago.
Player A: Prove you're Town.
Player B: What? That absurdly ridi-
Player A: He can't do it! Lynch him!
Jubjubs (chanting): It makes so much sense! Lynch him!
or the equally stupid because it's the same thing:
Player A: Prove you aren't Mafia.
Player B: ....
Player A: He's defending himself! Lynch him! Defending yourself is a scumtell!
Jubjubs: My god! Why didn't we see this before! *smacks collective forehead*
There is a difference between ignorance and stupidity. Try to be on the ignorant side, ok?
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United States22154 Posts
Am I a terrible person because I giggled at this?
Although I partially agree, there's a lot of focus on people being "confirmed" because they were on the right bandwagon, or whats worse, being "obviously" scum for doing things that are either pro-town or null tells, what irritates me the most is that people seem to not be reading the thread, but rather just picking out certain posts and voting based on that, without listening to logic or any arguments against their faulty logic.
So tell me Ace, how do you propose to remedy this? Do we need more bootcamp games? Maybe a team melee style mini in which we pair some of the newer players with more experienced players?
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despite this, towns seem to be doing really well as of late. so really, if mafia sucks so bad that even using flawed methods town is slaughtering mafia, maybe the first step should be to improve mafia players.
you cant improve in anything unless you need to improve. so flawed methods are giving great results, we have to change that. the way to do this is not to demand that players stop using flawed methods, but to make sure those methods stop working, thus forcing towns to step up their game.
stop being a pessimist ace, there is a ton of people on this forum willing to try to improve, instead of telling us why we suck, tell us how to improve. add content to your mafia guide, that'd maybe help mafia stop sucking, and in turn force towns to improve too.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Agreed with Ace, and even though I'm a pessimist myself I think there's still hope. Town and Mafia both currently play under the assumption that the majority of participants in a game are lazy (which is relatively true to some extent).
Of course, Mafia is supposed to be fun. If you're playing in a game and having fun, that's the majority of it. Some people don't care to improve for one reason or another, and just like the game as it is.
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Gmarshal the easiest way for people to improve is for them to learn how to read.
Palmar, part of the reason the Town has been doing well is that hosts have given Towns lots of crutches and after the 5 millionth time it's starting to work out. Take out the mass power roles, tone down the number of town prot roles(or make them ineffective), up Mafia KP, and give Scum better roles and things will go back to where dying is actually a very real possibility if you're Town.
As for not being a pessimist: no. I've told people how to improve numerous times. I'm not repeating myself. But maybe I'll finish my Scum guide, and write a Town guide. Then again there is too much awesomeness to share and since people don't read anyway I'm not sure it's worth my time.
@flamewheel: There are a lot of lazy people though. If I have to read another game where people expect someone like BC or Meapak to do majority of the work I'm posting more Head-On-Pants pics.
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I dunno what's going on but it's a lot better than the metagame a few month ago of
Day 1: Lynch Townie
Day 2: Lynch Townie
Day 3: Lynch Townie
Day 4: Lynch Townie
GG
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
There Ace goes again, flaunting his literacy in front of all of us.
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I kinda agree with palmar that scum teams seem to be sucking as of late and most of the town continue cluless, while some few players that are actually investing time in the game and reading the thread looking for motives try to fight a uphill battle to convince the reactive mob of their reads.
I, in particular, would be very interested in reading a scum guide from some of the good scum players around, since I don't think I'm very effective as scum. =)
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On August 07 2011 00:06 Ace wrote:
Palmar, part of the reason the Town has been doing well is that hosts have given Towns lots of crutches and after the 5 millionth time it's starting to work out. Take out the mass power roles, tone down the number of town prot roles(or make them ineffective), up Mafia KP, and give Scum better roles and things will go back to where dying is actually a very real possibility if you're Town.
Those power roles don't come into play until day 2, and many, many games as of late towns are lynching mafia on day 1. The methods may not be good, but the reason for such success is definitely not power roles. I think bad mafia play is much likely candidate for what has been happening of late.
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On August 07 2011 02:38 Palmar wrote:Show nested quote +On August 07 2011 00:06 Ace wrote:
Palmar, part of the reason the Town has been doing well is that hosts have given Towns lots of crutches and after the 5 millionth time it's starting to work out. Take out the mass power roles, tone down the number of town prot roles(or make them ineffective), up Mafia KP, and give Scum better roles and things will go back to where dying is actually a very real possibility if you're Town.
Those power roles don't come into play until day 2, and many, many games as of late towns are lynching mafia on day 1. The methods may not be good, but the reason for such success is definitely not power roles. I think bad mafia play is much likely candidate for what has been happening of late.
This is actually a valid point. I think that the level of play has lowered on both ends, but the most dramatic thing for me is seeing so many day one scum lynches.
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Lynching Mafia on Day 1 doesn't guarantee success, and it doesn't mean Mafia will lose. If the Town is winning convincingly every time then it may be setup related and/or shitty players. The Power Roles may not always come into play on Day 1, but even with a mislynch a bunch of Power Roles running around without a good set of roles for Scum is going to sway the game in Town's favor a lot.
How many games have Mafia been lynched Day 1 lately? 3, 4 out of maybe the last 20 games? That doesn't constitute many games.
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United States4714 Posts
Out of the last 5 major games PTP2/WaW2/RTM/AA/XLIII, a townie has only been lynched once. 1 3rd party 3 mafia lynches.
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United States22154 Posts
On August 07 2011 05:42 Mig wrote:
Out of the last 5 major games PTP2/WaW2/RTM/AA/XLIII, a townie has only been lynched once. 1 3rd party 3 mafia lynches.
I refuse to consider WAW2 a real game. :-P
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That's still not a lot of games. 2 of which are PM games iirc (AA, PTP2) that also had a ton of roles, and one hosted by Caller.
What were the setups for all of these games, and what happened Day 1 to get Mafia lynched? Was it actual good play from the Town, bad Scum play, or something else?
ETA: and why are you only counting those and not other games. Normals are "major" games, theme games aren't.
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On August 07 2011 05:54 Ace wrote:
That's still not a lot of games. 2 of which are PM games iirc (AA, PTP2) that also had a ton of roles, and one hosted by Caller.
What were the setups for all of these games, and what happened Day 1 to get Mafia lynched? Was it actual good play from the Town, bad Scum play, or something else?
ETA: and why are you only counting those and not other games. Normals are "major" games, theme games aren't.
AA: we tried to lynch a townie, mafia defended him in what we deemed a scummy way, so we switched the votes last minute to the mafia. another mafia died during the night, the mafia godfather got lynched the day after that and 2 more mafia died to mig's excellent hatter play the next night. None of these were based on DT checks or anything like that, so the conclusion is bad scum play.
RTM: 3 people up for lynch day 1 based on analysis (although one of them was breadcrumbed scum by a dead DT). 2 of the 3 were mafia, one of the mafia claimed dt and bussed the other, we lynched that guy. The next day our vigis and hatters killed 3 mafia, and we lynched the mafia godfather.
WaW2: I claimed 3rd party day one and got lynched, then all hell broke lose and it's a caller game. I still won because... why the hell not!
Mafia XLIII: Varpulis lynched on day 1 based on analysis, game is still in progress.
PTP2: Mafia was about to be lynched on day 1 when a day-DT got a scum result on BC (who was miller), we switched the votes and lynched BC the miller, shot mafia that night. Next day the town lynched the mafia godfather.
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oh, and the XLIII town just lynched the godfather in that game, based on analysis.
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For AA: That could be considered good Town play. Even without DT checks that doesn't mean PRs didn't have a major impact. Then again, if it's Vanilla Town vs Scum and it's a massive loss chances are bad Scum play.
RTM: How did a Mafia claim DT on Day 1 and bus the other with no checks? Did the game start Night 0? Also what was the setup. That sounds pretty ridiculous but if that was the game hosted by RoL I better read the setup again.
Waw2: No comment.
MafiaXLIII: I'll wait till the game is over.
PTP: Isn't exactly the most balanced of formats because of the nature of the game. A Day DT v_v
Also all of these are Theme games except XLIII - what about the Normals?
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United States22154 Posts
AA was a normal. Also wasn't aa the one where the sk led the town all game long? :-P
To be honest I think scum play and town play has been pretty abysmal, and the stick to measure that should be normals. RTM was semi theme IMO, and AA the sk sided with the town, so they are hardly an even measuring stick.
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ok, then what about all the other normals before that one? Why not count those. Small sample size isn't good.
Anyway none of this changes the fact that lots of jubjubs are being stupid.
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
I don't care the least bit about most theme games, but I do follow normal games relatively frequently (not as of this past month though). I can't say I remember off the top of my head a normal game other than the current one [it seems?] that Mafia has been lynched Day 1.
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kitaman27
United States9245 Posts
The Ver smurf/Foolishness normal had annul lynched day one I believe, but that was pm's too.
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I haven't read much of the recent games, but if a mafia gets lynched on day 1, chances are its their fault. There usually isn't compelling evidence to lynch on day 1, so most day 1 lynches go on lynching the "most scummy" person. Unless townies are playing well and aren't acting suspicious, it shouldn't be too difficult for mafia to split the vote or get the town to switch to another target.
The main problem is that mafia are too timid in the thread and aren't pushing their agenda like they should. A mafia with a strong thread presence should be able to easily deflect votes and lead the town in circles. This doesn't happen because lower level mafia are too scared to get out in the spotlight and primarily focus on individual survival. This is a mistake, as you are likely leaving a lot on the table if your team leaves you out to die while you singlehandedly engage the masses. While yes, having your team defend you might increase future risk, you cannot discount the value of having larger numbers for a longer time, especially in the early stages of the game where numbers and KP are critical.
While survival will win you games, you can't just have your whole team cowering in fear while you get picked apart little by little. Hiding and hoping you don't get noticed is a recipe for disaster. As mafia, you have to be actively involved in misdirection, or you will eventually get destroyed by the growing wave of information that the town acquires.
So how do you determine how to defend yourself and push your agenda? Obviously there are the townies who are dead set on getting you lynched, but these aren't as common as you think they are. Do your attackers truly know that you are mafia, or are they arriving at the right conclusion using faulty assumptions and logic? If its the latter, then you have a definite chance. You can often sway public opinion just by being persistent and making good arguments. Focus on the logic of your attacker's arguments. Are your attackers misrepresenting your posts? Are they using neutral or pro-town signals and claiming that they are anti-town? Do they logically derive a motive from your posts, or do they just make assumptions and leap to a conclusion without any sound basis? These are easy ways to pick apart your attacker's arguments. Just be persistent, as a townie should be looking at all the evidence that points to his innocence.
On tunneling: This works the same way as building a case against mafia. When you are trying to get a mafia lynched, you don't argue against your target, as they're obviously not going to change their minds and agree with you that they are mafia. Instead, you spend your energy trying to convince others to vote for said mafia, while generally ignoring your target's pleas. Likewise, when you are being attacked by a player who just won't change his mind, just ignore him and focus on what is likely easier to control - the opinions of other townies. There's no need to fill the thread with 20 pages of you trying to convince the other person of your guilt/innocence. Just because one person is dead set on killing you doesn't mean that others feel the same way. In a sense, the best way to resolve a tunneling scenario is where each party (attacker and target) ignore each other and convince others to their point of view.
A quick point about lying: When you're lying or trying to hide something, you tend to want to keep your story straight so that you don't contradict yourself. You limit yourself to certain statements so that you don't have to keep as many details straight. However, when you're innocent, you aren't as worried about consistency, so you will actively volunteer any and all evidence that could potentially help your case. Put yourself in the shoes of a townie. If you are being attacked, don't worry about consistency. Use any and all information to your advantage, and don't be afraid to pull information from multiple sources.
Mafia are generally more afraid than they should be about pushing their agenda. Since they know they're guilty, they think townies will catch on quicker than they actually do. The truth is that the town generally has to sift through a lot of information, and the pieces don't fit together as clearly as they do when you are mafia and already know what the answers are. When you are mafia, you subconsciously filter out information that you know leads to the wrong answer, and are paranoid/nervous when people start poking their noses in the right direction. But do the townies really catching on to something, or are they just exploring their possibilities? Chances are, unless they've really found the answer, or are close to finding absolute conviction, you have a chance at convincing them otherwise. Better yet, act preemptively and instead of waiting for people to catch on to how your behavior points to your guilt, take advantage of other paths of behavior that lead to what you know is the wrong answer and convince townies to waste time exploring those options. The key is to spread doubt, overload the town with information, and keep the town guessing while you push your agenda. It doesn't really matter if you are eventually caught, as long as your death doesn't incriminate other fellow mafia.
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Why not try to help people get better then instead of repeatedly telling them they suck  .
Many people here are first time/new players. I read a lot of games but my first time really playing was on TL (and it shows - I admit my scumdar is pretty shoddy). You can't expect them to be pro and up to your standards already, TL isn't a Mafia specific site so most people playing are probably pretty new  . I'm very ashamed of my SNMMV play, though in my defense I wasn't really paying that much attention to it (sorry GM).
That said the scum play has been really, really bad in the few games I've played in so far.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On August 07 2011 07:41 Incognito wrote:
So how do you determine how to defend yourself and push your agenda? Obviously there are the townies who are dead set on getting you lynched, but these aren't as common as you think they are. Do your attackers truly know that you are mafia, or are they arriving at the right conclusion using faulty assumptions and logic? If its the latter, then you have a definite chance. You can often sway public opinion just by being persistent and making good arguments. Focus on the logic of your attacker's arguments. Are your attackers misrepresenting your posts? Are they using neutral or pro-town signals and claiming that they are anti-town? Do they logically derive a motive from your posts, or do they just make assumptions and leap to a conclusion without any sound basis? These are easy ways to pick apart your attacker's arguments. Just be persistent, as a townie should be looking at all the evidence that points to his innocence.
You should try playing in a game as mafia and seeing how well this works...but maybe I'm just bitter
On August 07 2011 08:56 Curu wrote:Why not try to help people get better then instead of repeatedly telling them they suck . Many people here are first time/new players. I read a lot of games but my first time really playing was on TL (and it shows - I admit my scumdar is pretty shoddy). You can't expect them to be pro and up to your standards already, TL isn't a Mafia specific site so most people playing are probably pretty new . I'm very ashamed of my SNMMV play, though in my defense I wasn't really paying that much attention to it (sorry GM). That said the scum play has been really, really bad in the few games I've played in so far.
It's because it's recurring that Ace is saying these things. Frankly it seems there are just so few people who care. Post game discussion seems to be occupied by the same 5 people each game.
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Getting better is moot here. Experience DOES NOT MATTER.
The ability to READ is the problem here. You were in that shitty SNMM with VisceraEyes where the level of reading was terrible. Do you honestly think my ability at the game is what made me realize what was going on, or was it the obvious "Ace is actually reading what people say" reason?
If several people have to keep saying "thats not what was posted" or "read the thread" then chances are your being stupid. Ignorance is for the newbies, they just don't know. Stupidity is for people that know, or are being told what to do and refuse to heed the advice and that is where this thread is directed.
@Foolishness: Everything Incognito said works though. Even if a player is correct, if the reasons are wrong there is always a chance of escape if you're Mafia. Even better if they misrepresent what you say, because Towns with lots of good players will turn around and lynch them instead.
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Well yeah, no excuse for SNMMV. I didn't really read the thread (which is what you're complaining about), I shouldn't have subbed in there in the first place cause I couldn't maintain interest due to PTP (sorry again GM!).
Foolishness, you were pretty obvious in PTP as Mafia even without getting outed for faking a post restriction if for no other reason than how little/useless your contributions were when people knew you were a good scumhunter lol. IMO it's much harder for a great Town player to play as scum because people expect you to do something worthwhile. If your Town play is horrible you can just do stupid shit all game and not get called out for it.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:20 Ace wrote:
Getting better is moot here. Experience DOES NOT MATTER.
The ability to READ is the problem here. You were in that shitty SNMM with VisceraEyes where the level of reading was terrible. Do you honestly think my ability at the game is what made me realize what was going on, or was it the obvious "Ace is actually reading what people say" reason?
If several people have to keep saying "thats not what was posted" or "read the thread" then chances are your being stupid. Ignorance is for the newbies, they just don't know. Stupidity is for people that know, or are being told what to do and refuse to heed the advice and that is where this thread is directed.
@Foolishness: Everything Incognito said works though. Even if a player is correct, if the reasons are wrong there is always a chance of escape if you're Mafia. Even better if they misrepresent what you say, because Towns with lots of good players will turn around and lynch them instead.
Yeah I know, I'm just bitter because it felt like only one player was reading the things I was writing, and the rest of the town didn't bother to care ^.^ I'm not one to give up in any situation, mafia XXX is proof of that 
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Just as an update for you Ace, we just lynched a scum day one in DrH's game...
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LOL that doesn't count, that was practically everyone derp troll voting and somehow lucking into the main bad guy.
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I would certainly read the scum guide if you finished it. I'm sure the majority of the other new players would as well.
People aren't always going to listen to you in game. It happens. Even if you are some kind of Mafia god, they aren't always going to listen to you.
On August 06 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
stop being a pessimist ace, there is a ton of people on this forum willing to try to improve, instead of telling us why we suck, tell us how to improve. add content to your mafia guide, that'd maybe help mafia stop sucking, and in turn force towns to improve too.
What he said.
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United States2186 Posts
On August 07 2011 13:20 Ace wrote:
Getting better is moot here. Experience DOES NOT MATTER.
The ability to READ is the problem here. You were in that shitty SNMM with VisceraEyes where the level of reading was terrible. Do you honestly think my ability at the game is what made me realize what was going on, or was it the obvious "Ace is actually reading what people say" reason?
If several people have to keep saying "thats not what was posted" or "read the thread" then chances are your being stupid. Ignorance is for the newbies, they just don't know. Stupidity is for people that know, or are being told what to do and refuse to heed the advice and that is where this thread is directed.
@Foolishness: Everything Incognito said works though. Even if a player is correct, if the reasons are wrong there is always a chance of escape if you're Mafia. Even better if they misrepresent what you say, because Towns with lots of good players will turn around and lynch them instead.
Yeah that SNMM game was one of the few times it was too painful to read the thread. When I saw your argument against Palmar day 1 it was really obvious even skimming that you were town and he was mafia and it seemed like town would have an easy win. Yet the voting list was everyone on some random doofus and you on palmar. And then you get lynched unanimously day 2 LOL.
The only other game I've read a bit of recently was arkham and in that it seemed like the mafia team didn't really have a good idea of what they should be doing. They were just like 'sup lets hang out' and then got lynched repeatedly because they weren't ready and couldn't prepare in time. Reactionary instead of preemptive. Town did reasonably well for what they had it seemed.
On August 07 2011 07:04 kitaman27 wrote:
The Ver smurf/Foolishness normal had annul lynched day one I believe, but that was pm's too.
That didn't have anything to do with pm's I just caught him in a logic gap in the thread.
On August 06 2011 23:18 Palmar wrote:
stop being a pessimist ace, there is a ton of people on this forum willing to try to improve, instead of telling us why we suck, tell us how to improve. add content to your mafia guide, that'd maybe help mafia stop sucking, and in turn force towns to improve too.
After the first few dozen exertions of fruitless effort the thought of 'why bother' must have surely crossed his mind.
Maybe this is just late night insanity but would it be useful/interesting if there was like a 'round table' of top players who discussed a game while it was going on (observing) in some private qt or forum and then shared it with everyone after?
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SNMM was a really, really bad example due to the number of inexperienced players in that game.
And Curu, the case on amber was in no way weak, I didn't have time to convince everyone, but what I highlighted in my posts had me pretty convinced he was scum
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United States22154 Posts
On August 07 2011 18:05 Palmar wrote:
SNMM was a really, really bad example due to the number of inexperienced players in that game.
And Curu, the case on amber was in no way weak, I didn't have time to convince everyone, but what I highlighted in my posts had me pretty convinced he was scum
3 maybe 4 players out of 12 were new. The rest were at least semi experienced.
Ver I love the round table idea
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FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
Observers of the Round Table go go go.
Also darn nice essay Incy.
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At least I can declare myself somewhat innocent of not "reading" the thread, whatever that specifically means. Instead I replace out like 80% of the games. -_-
I never seriously read any other mafia games with 24hr/48hr timeline so I don't know how quality of others compare to here, but the inexperienced players might simply not be misunderstanding the level of attention required. I myself thought quickly skimming the thread once a day was enough in the past.
Either way Round Table idea sounds epic.
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Most players don't need to work on "finesse" items. It's about deciding to put in the effort to read, write and think critically. Too often that minimum commitment is not there.
The round table idea is awesome, from my perspective as a consumer. As a teaching tool, I am pretty sure that as Foolisness mentioned, it will be read by the same circle of players. Stil, I'd love to see it happen.
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On August 08 2011 05:29 citi.zen wrote:
Most players don't need to work on "finesse" items. It's about deciding to put in the effort to read, write and think critically. Too often that minimum commitment is not there.
The round table idea is awesome, from my perspective as a consumer. As a teaching tool, I am pretty sure that as Foolisness mentioned, it will be read by the same circle of players. Stil, I'd love to see it happen.
round table idea should be built of players who aren't neccesarily just "top tier". Active players who play consistently and have decent results should be on it if it is done. Most of the players in what is considered the best players of the forum barely play now and part of me feels that a core group of players set to analyze a game behind the scenes as it happens should be built of people who actively play as well as those who are considered top notch.
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yikes towns have such loose lips these days.
the round table idea is good if people read it but i feel like no one would : /
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Round table seems good, I wouldn't mind reading it and/or participating.
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Same. I'll be traveling for a while and might miss it, but I'd defiantly read/participate in it if I was available.
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I would read a round table for sure always looking to improve :O
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I would participate in the round table in a heartbeat.
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On August 08 2011 05:58 BloodyC0bbler wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 05:29 citi.zen wrote:
Most players don't need to work on "finesse" items. It's about deciding to put in the effort to read, write and think critically. Too often that minimum commitment is not there.
The round table idea is awesome, from my perspective as a consumer. As a teaching tool, I am pretty sure that as Foolisness mentioned, it will be read by the same circle of players. Stil, I'd love to see it happen. round table idea should be built of players who aren't neccesarily just "top tier". Active players who play consistently and have decent results should be on it if it is done. Most of the players in what is considered the best players of the forum barely play now and part of me feels that a core group of players set to analyze a game behind the scenes as it happens should be built of people who actively play as well as those who are considered top notch.
I agree with this. The round table shouldn't be set up like a museum showpiece solely by vets. It would probably be better to model it after a master class. A lot of times, writing out your thoughts is a good way of seeing how concretely you understand the concepts needed to analyze, plan, and just play mafia in general. Including a group of active and consistent players along with top players will also be a good way to get them to learn more hone their skills. As long as there is discussion and feedback from top players to keep a good line of thought/keep things in check, a round table discussion can turn into some sort of out-of-game bootcamp. Useful for those who are in the discussion, as well as useful for those who read it. I think it might be a good idea to keep the group relatively small though (maybe 10-12ish players) so that we can keep the discussion focused and avoid redundancy.
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United States2186 Posts
Okay reception is good. We'll do it next normal game then.
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Just make sure there are some good players actually playing the game!
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United States22154 Posts
On August 08 2011 15:28 Ver wrote:
Okay reception is good. We'll do it next normal game then.
Dammit I'm hosting that, I guess I'll miss out on all the juicy discussion. -_-
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i read this and all i think is "i'm not invited, you assholes"
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On August 08 2011 21:21 GMarshal wrote:Show nested quote +On August 08 2011 15:28 Ver wrote:
Okay reception is good. We'll do it next normal game then. Dammit I'm hosting that, I guess I'll miss out on all the juicy discussion. -_-
Explain to me why the host cannot participate in the roundtable? Yeah, you've got responsibilities come cycle-change, but as a normal, you're not doing much else beyond that. I don't see why you couldn't be part of the discussion while hosting...
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Because he kinda knows everyone's role already and can't offer unbiased and purely analytical commentary?
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United States22154 Posts
It's cool, I'll just read along ^_^
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Is this happening? Or will it just get moved to Ace's game?
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EPT![[image loading]](http://th06.deviantart.net/fs71/150/f/2010/061/2/2/ZP___Pants_on_head_by_SasukeXIII.jpg)
