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On August 02 2011 09:20 chaos13 wrote:
DrH has the right idea here. Yes, confirmed townies are excellent. However, mafia can easily fake claim a role like medic or vig, and then we would need to waste our DT checks in order to confirm those claims. Not only that, but we have no idea who the day vig actually is. If it's in the hands of a weaker player, that could lead to complete and utter disaster. Having one player coordinate all the actions of the blues is never a good thing. There is far too much room for error in such a situation, especially since mafia are able to PM and influence the game as well. Ultimately, however, it is up to the individuals with the roles to decide what to do. Discussion about this is very good, but I would rather not waste all day with it. Just something to keep in mind if we're still arguing about it in 24 hours.
Vigis, because there are probably a lot of you in here: Do not shoot unless it is at confirmed scum. If you feel you must shoot anyway, take out lurkers and liars. This sort of common sense is all too often ignored, and results in dead town. Even take DT claims with a grain of salt. If analysis points to a player being town when a claimed check has shown red, proceed with caution. It could be a miller or a scum's fake claim in order to waste a vig shot, especially if the claimed DT player has been under suspicion.
has nothing to do with fake claims in fact the fake mafia claims are the only part of the plan that i like that i think would be advantageous too bad the day vig will just get smoked night 1 and none of this will matter
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golden rule of mafia don't kill townies for "information"
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On August 02 2011 09:22 Curu wrote:
Fake claiming Medic acts like real Medic, because then Mafia can never hit the person they are told to protect without risking outing the fake claimer.
Fake claiming Vig is terrible when we know Mafia KP, they can be caught ezpz.
Good point about vig. Medic is a good claim for them, however, for just the reason you stated. It functions exactly like a real medic. i.e.) We have no way to distinguish between them.
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On August 02 2011 09:21 heist wrote:
I'm trying to think of ways to not have the confirmed townie train end with the Soldier's death, but actually now that I think about it more, there can't be double of every blue role. Unless mafia would really like to stick out their necks, there should be at least a singular blue role claim. That's the person the Soldier can pass the information to. We can increase this likelihood by switching the day vig from Soldier to Sniper.
What is everyone's thoughts on making one sniper claim and do the day vig shot? As far as I know mafia can't day vig. And I'm almost positive there is only 1 soldier, who can confirm himself if need be.
Anybody who is publicly known to be controlling the blues/leading the town is going to get shot eventually, especially if they've got kp.
I'll eat my hat if we've got more than 1 medic in a 20 player game.
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On August 02 2011 09:29 Varpulis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 09:21 heist wrote:
I'm trying to think of ways to not have the confirmed townie train end with the Soldier's death, but actually now that I think about it more, there can't be double of every blue role. Unless mafia would really like to stick out their necks, there should be at least a singular blue role claim. That's the person the Soldier can pass the information to. We can increase this likelihood by switching the day vig from Soldier to Sniper.
What is everyone's thoughts on making one sniper claim and do the day vig shot? As far as I know mafia can't day vig. And I'm almost positive there is only 1 soldier, who can confirm himself if need be. Anybody who is publicly known to be controlling the blues/leading the town is going to get shot eventually, especially if they've got kp. I'll eat my hat if we've got more than 1 medic in a 20 player game.
why on earth would you support this plan in that case
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On August 02 2011 09:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
has nothing to do with fake claims in fact the fake mafia claims are the only part of the plan that i like that i think would be advantageous too bad the day vig will just get smoked night 1 and none of this will matter
There's many things that have the potential to go wrong. Regardless, I agree with you. At it's heart, it's not a bad plan, there are just far too many things that can cause it to be detrimental, and I would be much more comfortable with our blues using their powers as they see fit as individuals. By all means, discuss with a town circle if you can get one going, but until that point, think for yourself.
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I would be for this plan on like day 3 with a sniper using the second shot because by then we would have a lot more info to make a better choice on who to shoot and if we do kill a townie with it by accident it would give us even more info.
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On August 02 2011 09:33 Trotske wrote:
I would be for this plan on like day 3 with a sniper using the second shot because by then we would have a lot more info to make a better choice on who to shoot and if we do kill a townie with it by accident it would give us even more info.
I don't much care for this attitude. You're brushing off the potential of a town hitting town by stating that it will give us info. How exactly would it do that? The only information it gives us is that our sniper is a shitty scumhunter. Mafia hits are the only kills we gain information from.
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I don't see why i am being fos'ed for opposing this plan.
Why would we want to enforce a double lynch and use a dayvig shot day 1, when we can use it later game when we have a far higher chance of hitting mafia. All this plan will most likely do is kill 3 townies and lose us a dayvig shot which can be far more useful later on. Idk what the fuck is going on when its a good idea to double lynch day 1. It seems to be the proponents of this plan are just like LETS KILL TOWNIES FASTER!!!!1111ONEONE!!!
If anything it's scummy to defend this plan and then just call whoever is against it scum with zero reasoning. We lynch today, vigs for the most part should hold their shots, and we win this game by scumhunting, not by some kooky plan Sandroba made up in 5 minutes.
Pros
1. get a confirmed townie
2. Every blue claims to this townie??
Cons
1. Double lynch on the day when we are most likely to lynch town.
2. Mafia can infiltrate pm circle
3. One townie directing all blue actions
4. Confirmed townie will most likely be shot
5. We lose a dayvig shot early when it can be put into far better use later on in the game.
Someone please put forward a convincing argument as to why this plan is good aside from pulling a Drazerk and going "lolscum"
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On August 02 2011 09:37 chaos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 09:33 Trotske wrote:
I would be for this plan on like day 3 with a sniper using the second shot because by then we would have a lot more info to make a better choice on who to shoot and if we do kill a townie with it by accident it would give us even more info. I don't much care for this attitude. You're brushing off the potential of a town hitting town by stating that it will give us info. How exactly would it do that? The only information it gives us is that our sniper is a shitty scumhunter. Mafia hits are the only kills we gain information from.
more importantly, if he likes the idea of the pl an, why does he want us to wait till day 3 after the vig has shot twice -_-
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On August 02 2011 09:30 chaos13 wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 09:25 DoctorHelvetica wrote:
has nothing to do with fake claims in fact the fake mafia claims are the only part of the plan that i like that i think would be advantageous too bad the day vig will just get smoked night 1 and none of this will matter There's many things that have the potential to go wrong. Regardless, I agree with you. At it's heart, it's not a bad plan, there are just far too many things that can cause it to be detrimental, and I would be much more comfortable with our blues using their powers as they see fit as individuals. By all means, discuss with a town circle if you can get one going, but until that point, think for yourself.
The point of mass claim to a confirmed townie is to force mafia to fake claim and the dayvig can sort the actions of the blues in a reduced pool of players, confirming the blues and eliminating suspicious people from the right pool. If mafia roleclaims medic even better, the day vig asks for a prot on himself and the mafia can't shoot him, profit. Things can go wrong either way, having an organized plan is better than no plan at all.
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On August 02 2011 09:29 DoctorHelvetica wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 09:29 Varpulis wrote:On August 02 2011 09:21 heist wrote:
I'm trying to think of ways to not have the confirmed townie train end with the Soldier's death, but actually now that I think about it more, there can't be double of every blue role. Unless mafia would really like to stick out their necks, there should be at least a singular blue role claim. That's the person the Soldier can pass the information to. We can increase this likelihood by switching the day vig from Soldier to Sniper.
What is everyone's thoughts on making one sniper claim and do the day vig shot? As far as I know mafia can't day vig. And I'm almost positive there is only 1 soldier, who can confirm himself if need be. Anybody who is publicly known to be controlling the blues/leading the town is going to get shot eventually, especially if they've got kp. I'll eat my hat if we've got more than 1 medic in a 20 player game. why on earth would you support this plan in that case
hmm, it's a good point actually.
A serious question: Do you guys think we'll have a better chance of killing scum if we do this day 1?
If we can kill scum it's worth it (durr) but otherwise I have a safer suggestion:
Why don't we wait until there are only 2 mafia left. That way they can't doublestack and we don't lose a blue role night 1.
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If you use the sniper as a second lynch but don't have him claim until he is out of kills he can't get taken out until he is just a normal townie.
And since the sniper would be acting on the towns behalf it would show you who was pushing really hard for the vig shot on a townie. and let you reexamine what the townie who got shot had said because he was now a confirmed townie.
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On August 02 2011 09:39 redFF wrote:
I don't see why i am being fos'ed for opposing this plan.
Why would we want to enforce a double lynch and use a dayvig shot day 1, when we can use it later game when we have a far higher chance of hitting mafia. All this plan will most likely do is kill 3 townies and lose us a dayvig shot which can be far more useful later on. Idk what the fuck is going on when its a good idea to double lynch day 1. It seems to be the proponents of this plan are just like LETS KILL TOWNIES FASTER!!!!1111ONEONE!!!
If anything it's scummy to defend this plan and then just call whoever is against it scum with zero reasoning. We lynch today, vigs for the most part should hold their shots, and we win this game by scumhunting, not by some kooky plan Sandroba made up in 5 minutes.
Pros
1. get a confirmed townie
2. Every blue claims to this townie??
Cons
1. Double lynch on the day when we are most likely to lynch town.
2. Mafia can infiltrate pm circle
3. One townie directing all blue actions
4. Confirmed townie will most likely be shot
5. We lose a dayvig shot early when it can be put into far better use later on in the game.
Someone please put forward a convincing argument as to why this plan is good aside from pulling a Drazerk and going "lolscum"
The heart of the matter is whether having a confirmed townie earlier is worth the risk of a less accurate vig shot. And the advantages are great, someone who can potentially point out suspicious claims, coordinate actions, provide a safe outlet for DT checks, etc
We are not killing 3 townies to do so.....and stop assuming they are going to be townies just because it's day 1.
First of all, someone is dying to the lynch anyways. Someone is getting hit by mafia KP anyways. We are only introducing 1 more KP into the equation for a double lynch.
Second, it is not a PM circle. It is a PM dictatorship. No blues will know each other. Mafia will know no more of blue roles than the town. The medics really should only be targeting the Soldier. We are not losing the dav vig shot for nothing; we are trading it for a confirmed townie with the benefits of a double lynch.
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On August 02 2011 09:46 Trotske wrote:
If you use the sniper as a second lynch but don't have him claim until he is out of kills he can't get taken out until he is just a normal townie.
And since the sniper would be acting on the towns behalf it would show you who was pushing really hard for the vig shot on a townie. and let you reexamine what the townie who got shot had said because he was now a confirmed townie.
Wait wait wait
You're promoting the a plan where vigs just shoot without claiming, and kill townies for information.
FoS.
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i don't like relying on roles, particularly in a semi-closed setup. still, it's a tempting plan despite its flaws, and heist is making the most sense here. delaying the plan a night or two is better for several reasons. first, to execute the plan we have to do essentially a double lynch, which usually doesn't have value day 1. second, with night action history, the dayvig will be able to make a better decision, post-claims.
the hate against redff and drh is ill-advised, i think. their concerns are legitimate. drh is doing a better job of voicing them though.
also
heist wrote
The heart of the matter is whether having a confirmed townie earlier is worth the risk of a less accurate vig shot. And the advantages are great, someone who can potentially point out suspicious claims, coordinate actions, provide a safe outlet for DT checks, etc
those advantages don't exist if you're debating doing this plan day1 vs day2. in both cases, the person will be able to point out suspicious claims, coordinate actions, provide safe outlet for dt checks, just a day later. these advantages only exist if you're debating doing this plan vs not doing it at all.
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I'm fine with sandrobas plan, I've tried one other pm game where everyone mass claimed to a townie day one, and it would have worked great if godfather didnt get dt chcked night one and considered confirmed town, so the scum team had the role list by day 2 (<3 drh). I'd prefer if we pushed the day vig hit to closer to deadline for more discussion though.
Biggest problem however is whether we have a day vig or not. Could the people who still havent commented on it do so? The sooner we know if the majority of the town agrees with the plan the sooner we can focus on who to kill/lynch.
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On August 02 2011 09:56 Varpulis wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 09:46 Trotske wrote:
If you use the sniper as a second lynch but don't have him claim until he is out of kills he can't get taken out until he is just a normal townie.
And since the sniper would be acting on the towns behalf it would show you who was pushing really hard for the vig shot on a townie. and let you reexamine what the townie who got shot had said because he was now a confirmed townie. Wait wait wait You're promoting the a plan where vigs just shoot without claiming, and kill townies for information. FoS.
I never said kill townies FOR information. I just said it does give us some.
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On August 02 2011 09:08 ghrur wrote:Show nested quote +On August 02 2011 09:00 Curu wrote:On August 02 2011 08:54 redFF wrote:On August 02 2011 08:51 Curu wrote:
Huh? I don't understand your post. The confirmed Townie tells the player who he is going to shoot or protect, he doesn't tell all Medics what every Medic is doing.
Since we know how much KP Mafia has I very much doubt any of them are going to be able to claim Vig. So you want one townie conducting every single vig hit/medic protect/hatter bomb? k here's an example. Mafia-I will be protecting player x Confirmed townie-no someone else is protecting him. now mafia know's to not hit player x. I would be more open to this plan day 2 or 3. But all i see is 2 townies getting lynched and losing a dayvig and that person most likely dying the next night. No, it goes like this: Mafia-I will be protecting player x Confirmed townie-stfu I choose who you protect, you'll be protecting player y Mafia-Okay... Yup, and if Mafia shoots player Y, and player Y dies, then clearly the medic isn't a medic but is mafia. :/ So if mafia tries to be medic, it effectively hurts them.
But mafia knows that player x probably isn't protected....
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Having said that I support the plan if we have a good shot day one. double lynching with no information makes it really likely we kill two town which is no bueno.
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EPT
