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Real Time Mafia

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syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-25 09:11:43
June 25 2011 08:18 GMT
#35
e: nm

/out

since LaL is starting tomorrow and I'm not confident I can be active enough in both
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-06-27 08:40:44
June 27 2011 08:33 GMT
#85
/in

Since LaL isn't starting anytime soon after all. +2 GMT isn't ideal for this though
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 07:37 GMT
#265
Some thoughts regarding the real time aspect of the game.

No hits will be allowed 6 hours before the lynch. I will further consult with other hosts and decide if this rule needs further alteration. I might just change it to no hits on the top 2 vote getters.

Thus if you have to role claim, do it within that time frame unless you know you've a medic on you, though it would be hilarious if someone went "I am the Detective, long post shortly" and got instasniped. Role claiming in this format is even worse than in standard format because you can immediately get hit and even if you don't, one medic can't keep you safe througout the day. One roleblocker can nullify a detective despite the block only lasting for 36 hours because it also takes 12 hours to get detective results.

Detectives should time their checks so that they get the results back early enough to potentially make a case for someone. If you know you aren't going to be around, do it earlier.

At least on D1, medics should send in their targets very early and ideally so that the [36h] protection wears off before the the no-hits period begins. This is not to say you should time it exactly, as that would leave mafia a six hour time frame of guaranteed non-protection. The first six hours of the day and the last six hours of when hits are still allowed are most likely mafia hit times. If medic actions can't be sent in advance and overlap is to be avoided, medics have to be around for the day post so that they can immediately send in their next saves. Obviously if mafia has used their KP for the day, you should send in your save right before the lynch.

Having said that, I think they are just as likely, especially from day 2 onwards, to take their chances and just ignore all of above. They don't have to send in their hits all at once and using some or all of them to derail town discussions and force WIFOM is worth the risk. Past day 1 good medics who can be active throughout the day should just act based on what's going on.

Whether a lurker check is worth doing over a normal check, knowing that mafia will likely avoid lurking, isn't clear to me. Further, if there are two detectives and only a few lurkers, they will likely check the same people. We can slightly decrease the probablity of this occurring by dividing the player list into two and having the detective in the first half to do a lurker check and the other one a normal one, but that could also lead to no lurker check.

Due to the possibility of a compulsive vig being in the game, from day 2 onwards we should determine the best vig targets every day. I suppose someone usually does it in a standard game as well, but it should be more of a democratic process in this game.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 08:06 GMT
#281
If it's not obvious yet, don't telegraph your actions. Claiming vigi and asking if a certain target is fine can get you sniped and lead to horrible WIFOM
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 08:27 GMT
#286
Can actions be sent in advance? That is to say, can detectives and medics PM their next targets before the day post as long as the PM specifically clarifies their intention?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 12:29 GMT
#301
This should go without saying, but don't post information regarding what you intend to use as a scum tell later on. A good player doing just that warrants a FoS.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 12:48 GMT
#307
Frankly this meta of blues trying to keep their heads down is a silly one. Every good mafia player is aware of the meta and indeed mafia without fails prioritizes hits on players who fit into this category. Further, in this game blues know they've to meet the activity requirements. That is not to say we should shoot blindly, and depending on how many players are on the lurker list tomorrow even role claiming might be a possibility, particularly if there are only 2 or so. We would risk a quick mafia snipe, but at least that would cost mafia KP. Even better, we could wait until mafia has used their hits for the day. Obviously role claiming is a terrible idea if the list is bigger, but I wouldn't expect there to be more than one blue on the list, in which case shooting into the list isn't that risky. We should, however, only target players who are genuinely been worthless and even then we should be very careful as the likelihood of mafia purposely staying lurking in this game is low.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 15:12 GMT
#320
Oh okay so the one who has actually posted something of substance is the suspicious one. The one who has given the new and different format some thought rather than post worthless lists and copy pasted "how town should play" guides. Perfect.

My plan for lynch was going to be lynching someone who has posted a lot to avoid being on the lurker list without contributing anything, but unfortunately some players feel the need to post their every single thought, including the fact this is a decent idea if there are no better alternatives present. I even hinted that Dropbear should stop alluding to this plan as it relies on players not actually being aware of it, but he still made another reference.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 15:23 GMT
#323
Furthermore, you should read your own post history and attempt to find things that are "worth anything" and could be characterized as scum hunting. Hint: there's nothing to be found. This is not OMGUS, it's just a statement of a fact and as you know, 12 hours into day 1 is hardly when any decent analysis is to be expected.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 15:38 GMT
#327
I checked his post history earlier. He has generated a lot of discussion which is goodt and is obviously attempting to establish himself as a town leader. Some of his posts have a bit weak logic, but I didn't notice anything particularly anti-town. I'm leaning town as if he were scum, he would pretty much have to be GF. Stating he isn't wishywashy about his vote is a bit odd though.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 16:06 GMT
#330
The post initially included a suggestion to abuse the detective lurker mechanic, but unfortunately RoL had already closed that door by the time I woke up
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 16:39 GMT
#343
Arguing with scum is definitely pro-town as long as it's not pure OMGUS and you should do it whenever possible. As I said I'm leaning towards GM being town for now and as such I'm not casting a vote on him. We've over 30 hours until lynch and I don't particularly believe in pressure voting people I'm not suspicious of. The way I approach mafia is first and foremost statistical, which is to say I can never know someone is mafia until they flip red or I detective check them. How people act and what they say simply increase the probability of them being mafia, despite the meta here being that you've to be certain about your votes.

I'm starting to reconsider whether this approach is good and whether I actually enjoy playing mafia.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 17:43 GMT
#361
Mig I actually thought the same thing when I read Jackal's post and was waiting for him to come back and see how he was going to proceed. He didn't even vote in the voting thread. Sinani's point about leaders was wrong or poorly stated, but not really scummy. Leaders are fine, as long as they too are scrutinized and their lead is followed because their arguments are sound, convincing and logical, not because somehow established themselves as leaders.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 19:50 GMT
#403
Even assuming GM is red, it's fairly unlikely he felt threatened enough to ask his scum team to intervene. There is over 30 hours until lynch and he had one or two votes on him. It's just silly to attempt to find such connections on day 1 and this early.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 20:11 GMT
#414
On June 29 2011 05:06 Palmar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 04:50 syllogism wrote:
Even assuming GM is red, it's fairly unlikely he felt threatened enough to ask his scum team to intervene. There is over 30 hours until lynch and he had one or two votes on him. It's just silly to attempt to find such connections on day 1 and this early.


Stop that shit.

All you've done all game long is posting neutral blanket statements.

Sorry, that's not neutral, that's just an argument against making bad cases early on. You've done nothing at all either so. I'm not going to stop pointing out bad logic or poor cases and I'm frankly of the opinion unless there's a big slip on d1, the odds of actually lynching scum aren't higher than with a pure random lynch
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 20:17 GMT
#419
Hey guys here's a good OMGUS for you.

Just hit that all button, press ctrl-f and type Palmer

Then look through the useless pile of junk he's created
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 20:29 GMT
#422
I'm not afraid of leading bad lynches at all, but I'm not going to lead lynches I don't believe in. There are a few players who are slightly suspicious (Drazerk for one), but the problem for me is that it's impossible to tell if they are bad town (like me I suppose), or bad mafia. Such a lynch is definitely preferable to lynching an active, contributing player like GMarshall, so I'll commit to such a lynch later or even make a case. There are also surprisingly many good players still lurking.

Also I maintain my analysis of the game mechanics was clearly pro-town and useful, which is more than can be said of your contributions so far.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 20:43 GMT
#427
I don't mind being attacked, the issue is more when a more experienced player accuses me of not contributing while he has done nothing at all so far. Of course, that could just be an indication of his alignment, but it's still hard not to react. I strongly believe my posts early on were all pro-town or neutral despite mostly being related to game mechanics.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 22:58 GMT
#460
So let's see Hiro, 3 hours ago you made a post promising you had some "leads" and would make a case on me (when in fact, there was already a bad case/wagon which you never improved) and go "scum hunting". Now 3 hours later you still haven't made a case, jump on the said stupid and easy wagon, vote for me citing my lack of opinions so far being your sole reason despite this being your first complete non-fluff post. Are you not seeing the hypocrisy?

Around 15 people haven't even voted yet and most of them haven't expressed any suspicion yet. See the problem?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 28 2011 23:11 GMT
#467
On June 29 2011 08:05 hiro protagonist wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 07:58 syllogism wrote:
So let's see Hiro, 3 hours ago you made a post promising you had some "leads" and would make a case on me (when in fact, there was already a bad case/wagon which you never improved) and go "scum hunting". Now 3 hours later you still haven't made a case, jump on the said stupid and easy wagon, vote for me citing my lack of opinions so far being your sole reason despite this being your first complete non-fluff post. Are you not seeing the hypocrisy?

Around 15 people haven't even voted yet and most of them haven't expressed any suspicion yet. See the problem?


no problem, glad your here. who do you think is scum?

I already stated that Drazerk is suspicious and if the lynch was to be held right now, I would be voting for him. I will be looking through more post histories tomorrow and vote accordingly. There are a lot of players who haven't been contributing anything at all while obviously being present (jackal for one has been posting one liners that aren't even game related) and he doesn't always play like that, so he is definitely one I will be paying more attention to. Sinani206's play is different from his town play in XLII, but he is also new so I'm not sure if that meta is helpful.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 07:49 GMT
#546
Catching up now, we should bear in mind it takes 12 hours to get DT check results back. Thus he definitely didn't have time to get his check back in reaction to your post and he would have had to check him based on Drazerk's first post in the thread or just randomly. I think he is the best lynch target currently based on his posts. I'll have to recheck the timeline to see if him checking Drazerk and then pushing him makes sense.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 07:57 GMT
#547
It's pure WIFOM, but I've to say I liked Drazerk lynch more before TAA flipped DT. Drazerk was already being pushed, so why would mafia kill TAA? If they thought TAA might be DT, this would just make people even more suspicious. DT only has one check a day so they could just snipe him tomorrow morning and attempt to derail Drazerk lynch some other way
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 08:36 GMT
#548
His posts are still scummy, especially him hugging GMarshall and then talking about confirmed townies, bizarre

##vote Drazerk
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 10:10 GMT
#552
VisceraEyes' play definitely does not look like his town play in PTP, SNMMII and XLII
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 12:38 GMT
#557
As I noted above, I'm liking Drazerk lynch less based on TAA's flip and timings. Visceraeyes isn't playing his usual town style. As of now I concur he is the better lynch

##Vote VisceraEyes
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 12:41 GMT
#558
EBWOP: as of now = right now
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 13:10 GMT
#562
Also FoS youngminii for bandwagoning me despite noting in XLII I was tunneled by RoS and now he is doing the same except the case is even worse. Him stating he'll "laugh [his] ass off if [Drazerk] flips non-red" is also pretty scummy
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 13:11 GMT
#563
EBWOP: RoS = RoL
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 17:15 GMT
#610
I don't think a one-shot vigi would waste a shot at someone who was fairly likely to be on the lurker list tomorrow. Seems more like a bad blue snipe based on one green post by him
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 17:27 GMT
#614
I don't understand, you say you didn't agree with his opinions but you want to lynch him now? Do you agree with his case now?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 17:35 GMT
#617
I think Drazerk is a decent lynch alternative based on his posts, but based on the time line it's very unlikely TAA actually DT checked Drazerk. He started making his case before he could have gotten the DT check back and in his last post he didn't seem quite sure about him anymore

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=10037034

That post could also be him breadcrumbing with the whole "strong scum vibes", but he follows that up by saying he isn't so sure. So, assuming he DT checked Drazerk, he must have at that point known his alignment. I don't see why he would hesitate rather than push harder.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 19:49 GMT
#653
On June 30 2011 04:35 ~OpZ~ wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 05:39 TheAwesomeAll wrote:
Drazerk gives me really strong strong scum vibes. Though at this point it doesnt make much sense anymore. Care to explain why you started to attack the sinani's? Hitting them doesnt make sense to me at all, they are playing anti town, but not scum. Everything pointed at GM at that point. Killing them seems a bit premature. so if drazerkcan explain that a bit more would be nice.
syllo, stop taking everything so personal, and stop arguing makes you look bad/scum also makes it hard for me to read you.
Cya in the morning guys, hope i wont be dead <3


DTCHEGMKC

DT Check GM?, or Drazerk? is it a command? Was he actually breadcrumbing? Is this a coincidence....WE MAY NEVER KNOW.

I'm fine lynching GM, while we all are bsing, but that can wait a few days I guess...Drazerk or VE is perfectly fine with me...unless someone wants to lynch a sinani....

Looks like DT CHEK DRAZERK to me, which would explain why he stopped pushing for him. Going back 12 hours from that post, he would have had to make the decision to check Drazerk based on this post http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=10027708
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 20:59 GMT
#689
Can you stop spamming the thread with complete nonsense? Though at least this makes it slightly less likely you are both scum
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 22:05 GMT
#711
I think there's 6 hours left until lynch based on the day post, which would mean the third kill was indeed a mafia kill and not a vigi hit. Well, unless someone someone was double stacked, but that seems unlikely.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 22:14 GMT
#715
On June 30 2011 07:11 GMarshal wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2011 07:05 syllogism wrote:
I think there's 6 hours left until lynch based on the day post, which would mean the third kill was indeed a mafia kill and not a vigi hit. Well, unless someone someone was double stacked, but that seems unlikely.

So, who do you think should be lynched today?

The one I'm voting for obviously, VisceraEyes. He seems to have disappeared and I don't think Drazerk being mafia makes sense based on how he has behaved in the last few hours and the fact TAA got hit.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 22:15 GMT
#716
EBWOP: makes little sense
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 29 2011 23:56 GMT
#749
GGQ has a bit over 4 hours to do something to avoid being modkilled. Why would you offer to replace someone when you clearly don't have time to participate? Hopefully it's just a one night thing. I've to say your request for the host to take into account your inability to be around when "deciding on the lurker list" is a pretty scummy request.

I'm going to bed in a bit, and I still think Drazerk is the worst lynch out of the three alternatives and Sinani206's voluntary activity despite there not being that much pressure on him is making him look better. Sinani201/Nisani201 seems like a decent vigi possibility tomorrow.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 08:54 GMT
#908
I absolutely can't believe Drazerk was scum. I'm fairly confident it means the scum team as whole is terrible or the good players weren't around when Drazerk was spamming the thread
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 08:56 GMT
#911
Also why isnt' VisceraEyes dead yet? Why not double stack?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 08:57 GMT
#912
Oh I suppose it's likely he has two medics on him
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 09:11 GMT
#917
If your action is on a timer and you are roleblocked, do you get the notified of the roleblock immediately
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 09:19 GMT
#919
Also I assume mafia KP is updated in real time as well, meaning killing mafia right now would deprive them of their third kill
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 09:38 GMT
#921
On June 30 2011 18:17 Palmar wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2011 18:11 syllogism wrote:
If your action is on a timer and you are roleblocked, do you get the notified of the roleblock immediately


lol

stop soft-claiming and just ask the hosts in pm.

That wasn't a soft claim. I was wondering why VisceraEyes wasn't roleblocked immediately. Perhaps there are two GFs, though that seems like a stupid idea in this format
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 12:51 GMT
#927
I'm convinced that Youngminii is scum. Early on he basically ignored TAA pushing Drazerk and concentrated on his case against GM and once TAA flipped DT he started bussing him and ignored reasonable arguments against the lynch despite claiming he didn't find Drazerk's posts scummy. He also didn't actively push for Drazerk lynch despite VE apparently being obviously a townie. I now realize TAA wasn't a blue snipe after all, but an attempt to save Drazerk. Him flipping DT ruined this plan.

+ Show Spoiler +
On June 28 2011 15:47 youngminii wrote:
LOLWUT
That was completely unexpected, I've never played a nightless game before. I'm going to assume that it was a scum hit?
The mafia were clearly trying to blue snipe and LSB seemed as if he was creating a plan. This leads me to believe the scum misinterpreted this as a Vet (no not experienced player, I mean the actual role) trying to make a good plan/trap to catch scum. My guess? The mafia roleblocked him and killed him hoping he was a Vet or at least a blue.

If the above is true, then this is a best case scenario for us as it means no other blue role will be roleblocked today.

His understanding of the real time mechanics is bizarrely poor. He is a good player, so why is this the case? Further, you ”assumed” that was a scum hit? There was absolutely no chance at all that being a one-shot vigi hit and you know that. Seems like a scum overcompensating due to him knowing for a fact it was a scum hit. That roleblocking scenario makes absolutely no sense whatsoever.


+ Show Spoiler +
On June 28 2011 16:32 youngminii wrote:
I can see what sandroba's saying, I don't fully agree but I don't fully disagree either. As for your point #4 I have actually acknowledged that as a complete fail by me, and you're actually wrong, roleblocks do in fact block the Vet's extra life, I took the time to ask RoL.

If you're going to make snide (rude) remarks about the people you are accusing, at least check your facts before blatantly throwing around 'facts'. I'm not impressed by the way you're handling yourself this game but I'm fairly certain you're not a scum.

If I was a DT and I was suspicious of GM, I would check him. I'm not going to tell you to do it though since we're operating a "do what you want" policy this game afaik.

+ Show Spoiler +
On June 29 2011 00:09 youngminii wrote:
i like the way you think theawesomeall

don't worry about palmar though, he's always like this
i can only think of gmarshal as the best dt candidate for now

okay i'm gonna head off now i'll be back when i wake up

+ Show Spoiler +
On June 28 2011 16:52 youngminii wrote:
It's completely situational though, say everyone on the lurker list is scummy. Then obviously the DT will check them. But what if they're not, what if there are more pressing issues at hand and you really need to check someone like you or me or GM?

This is why the threat of being kicked into the lurker list is enough, while blues should do what they feel is best.

Enough of this talk imo, I absolutely agree with TheAwesomeAll's post but there's soo many people who basically haven't posted yet either. I'm going to head out for a bit and I'll stop clogging up the thread until more people have posted.

Ciao ^o^

Early on, he seemed to think GM was a good DT check target, but was really wishy washy about it for no reason. I find it hard to believe he didn't realize by this point he would very likely be GF or town. In addition, he agrees with TAA's post about GM being suspicious, but then sort of doesn't because not enough people have posted yet? I guess ”clogging up the thread” with actual analysis isn't something that would serve your goals. He never really ended up doing any analysis despite there being an abudance of material.

+ Show Spoiler +
On June 29 2011 16:40 youngminii wrote:
Well okay I don't see anything wrong with lynching Drazerk now. I'll laugh my ass off if he flips non-red.

+ Show Spoiler +
On June 30 2011 02:25 youngminii wrote:
To the person that said "What if he checked GM".

If you go back and read his posts he explicitly says "DT don't bother checking GM, if he's scum he's definitely GF so it would be a waste".

To which I agree. Hence Drazerk is our best target. You can argue on whether or not he checked him but it doesn't really matter, he's the best target going on from the information we have. If you don't agree then there's either something seriously wrong with you or you're scum, plain and simple.

In any case, he tunneled Drazerk pretty damn hard, I didn't agree with his opinions at all but here we are.

+ Show Spoiler +
On June 29 2011 13:28 youngminii wrote:
I thought I told you guys to stop this shit with sinani.

The Palmar lynch I can completely understand. He's terrible yada he likes bandwagons he just wants to kill people etc. I KNOW
This is his town play. Sure, there's a possibility that he's mafia and he's hiding behind his regular town meta (unlikely) but this is just him, you can't do anything about that. In fact, I've heard his scum play is excellent (never seen it myself), if so why would he post like a poor town?

Anyway, between hiro drazerk syllo I'm gonna go with syllo. I firmly believe that both hiro and syllo are scum at this very moment, drazerk's posts are too shallow to make a judgement out of.

For syllo, some of you are arguing that his first post about helping direct blues should relieve him as that is clearly town favoured. Wrong, go read that post again, it's a very heavily veiled post that doesn't actually help anyone. Do you really think a medic won't know that the last 6 hours of a day is unhittable? What syllo does is point this out, then says but medics shouldn't save straight away because scum will hit in the 6 hours before the last 6, but then it's up to the medics because if we tell them what to do scum will abuse it etc. etc.

Then in the next paragraph he completely nullifies everything he said by saying "But nah, you can ignore everything I said if you want". Just remember, lots of scum like to make a huge 'helpful' post at the start to appear as townie as they can. I've seen this first hand.

Every post he has made until Palmar calling him out has been extremely neutral and unhelpful to the town cause. As soon as Palmar gets to him, syllo OMGUS votes Palmar?

Yeah and there was the whole EXTREMELY WEAK hiro voting for syllo for 'pressure' and after like a one liner from syllo hiro backs off.

Best candidate, by far. Easily.

However, then he later retroactively, while bussing his teammates, agrees that DT checking GM was a bad idea after all!

Also this is when bussing begins. His justification for voting Drazerk is very strange. Previously he didn't have an opinion on Drazerk because his posts are too ”shallow” (???). Also note that suddenly the real time mechanics are completely obvious, while initially he didn't even realize mafia could kill in real time.

On June 30 2011 02:30 youngminii wrote:
No, I don't agree with his case. I had no opinion of Drazerk and I still don't, not one big enough to justify a lynch. However, when a DT dies and his last action was to tunnel a guy who shouldn't have had a case on him in the first place, coupled with his theory of Drazerk and GM working together, it logically makes sense to go after Drazerk since he felt so strongly about it.

Could he have just tunneled Drazerk without a check? Yes. But it's just as likely that he did check him, we don't know for sure.

What I'm trying to say is, Drazerk is the most logical lynch based on the information we have. You seriously want to lynch VisceraEyes for his somewhat questionable actions? It's not THAT scummy to prioritise him over the guy that the DT was gunning for.

Wow, you still don't have an opinion on Drazerk despite wanting to lynch him. By that point it had been repeatedly pointed out that the time line on TAA checking Drazerk doesn't make sense. Also saying it's just as likely that he was DT checked than not shows he either doesn't care about the game mechanics or pretends to be oblivious.

+ Show Spoiler +
On June 30 2011 02:42 youngminii wrote:
lol

I said I wouldn't vote him if it was just based on the analysis against him. However, with the whole DT thing I believe his lynch would be completely justified.

@syllo, I somewhat agree and I was considering whether or not my vote on him is justified (I still think it is) and then I came across this:

Show nested quote +
On June 29 2011 08:56 Drazerk wrote:
Well looks like I am dead, At least when I am dead ill flip green Proving GM is innocent. Was bound to happen as I am always day 1 lynch suspect.

When I die you will be at a disadvantage but at least you will have a Guaranteed Townie. ( Medics better defend him don't let my death be in vain )

I'm off to bed

I am sick of this "nah i'm dead anyway i'm off see ya" attitude. I've been seeing this far too often lately and I'll be more than happy to policy lynch this.

People speak of creating pro-town conditions? This is just about as anti-town as you can get. This attitude where you roll over and die is absolutely unacceptable. We have to create a town meta where this will get punished, just like lurkers getting policy lynched and what not.

tl;dr kill drazerk

With the DT check in doubt and me and chaos13 voiced our suspicions regarding him wanting to lynch Drazerk despite not having an opinion on him and thinking TAA's case against him wasn't good his hilarious weak justification for voting for him was gone, he had to backpedal a bit and find a better excuse for bussing. He still didn't bother doing any real analysis, just found one post with him martyring that had already been pointed out.

+ Show Spoiler +
On June 30 2011 03:01 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 30 2011 02:50 sandroba wrote:
Okay, half your analysis is based on other players aligment. Let me say this, if you think GM or whoever else is scum go ahead and vote for him. The fact that Drazerk defended GM says nothing. Every aligment has resons to defend town/scum (they trully believe they are town / defending teamates/ gaining town cred). They way he went about defending GM gets him town points in my book even if GM is scum.
Only the first post you quoted I agree it can be interpreted as scum behaviour, but I don't think it's soliid enough to warrant this huge quickforming bandwagon.

fuck yeah you are the towniest motherfucker in this entire thread
hi5

palmar i wish you'd just stick to one guy, other than that i've enjoyed your more recent posts

let me ask you this
if we lynch visceraeyes and he flips red, what information do we gain? am i suddenly scum because chaos13 linked us together? i hardly think so
if we lynch drazerk and he flips red, dear god we have a ton of information, syllo is under fire, gm is under fire, lots of the people that are on the viscera train are under fire

then again, based on recent games they're both probably non-red lawlawlawl

remember: lynching based on analysis on day 1 is relatively difficult and pretty luck based, i'm a lot more comfortable following a possible dt check

He wants to lynch Drazerk for information, which is generally a terrible reason to lynch someone, but not for him because he is bussing his teammate and knows if he flips red he can get a bunch of townies lynched based on them being on the wrong wagon.

On June 30 2011 10:20 youngminii wrote:
Also, huge /facepalm on town for forcing a DT roleclaim.

Did you seriously think VisceraEyes was playing scummy? Think very carefully and reflect upon these words:

He is not the one that played badly. YOU are.

Scum slip? Why do you think it's town forcing a DT to roleclaim rather than scum team? This is also when he says VE was obviously a townie, despite not actually making any effort to get Drazerk lynched.

On June 28 2011 15:05 youngminii wrote:
Show nested quote +
On June 28 2011 14:55 sandroba wrote:
Okay, I'm going to go completely against everything that's been said so far. Mafia are not dumb. They are very likely NOT going to lurk in this game. People should NOT be shooting into the lurker list until later or only if this becomes a real problem.
You guys can argue WIFOM all you want, but I'm willing to bet mafia won't find themselves in the lurker list any time soon.
Also we shall not make any lists this game. We will discuss 2-3 players at a time and leave blues to act on their own.
I shall start discussing YM. You pretty much started being agressive as always, but I feel after Mafia XLII you must have learned already that this is gonna lead us to endless confusion, no? My opinion is that you are abusing your town meta this game, throwing pointless flawed acusations like there's no tomorrow. Makes a lot of sense as scum trying to hide their colors doesn't it?

It does make a lot of sense but I seriously just have to throw it out there:

My scum play is even worse than my town play, if you can imagine.

You say I've thrown around pointless flawed accusations but I haven't really, in XLII I tunneled 2 people with lengthy analyses but this game I've done no such thing, nothing of the sort although I am trying to maintain the same level of aggressiveness.

I agree with you that arguing WIFOM is stupid though. Who gives a flying fuck who the mafia are gonna shoot on that list (well the medic does but discussing it isn't going to help), all you're going to do is waste valuable time and space and confuse everyone and everything.

I agree, your scum play is incredibly bad, as shown above. That is also why your "lengthy analyses" are missing.

Youngminii is SCUM
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 14:26 GMT
#938
Don't this big games usually have 2 DTs? Seems like an extremely risky bus
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 14:28 GMT
#939
Though early on Youngminii made a weird comment about our "only DT" dying. If there's no roleblocker, would that indicate there's only one dt
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 14:34 GMT
#941
The real DT doesn't have to claim though as he can instead check other linked suspicious people and if mafia happens to kill him, his flip will guarantee one or more scum lynches. Letting VisceraEyes to die instead of doing such a risky gambit makes more sense
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 15:45 GMT
#958
On July 01 2011 00:41 Palmar wrote:
lol, that's convenient.

I wonder what propped that shot, youngminii and I pointing in his direction?

Go town, lol

Can you link me to where youngminii pointed to his direction?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 15:49 GMT
#960
You were leaning towards him being scummy which you should get some credit, but it was buried, as far as I can see, in a huge list of suspects, which isn't for me quite enough to clear you
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 17:05 GMT
#986
That doesn't make sense to me. Why not update it in real time?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 17:10 GMT
#991
There's no way this setup has 3 DTs, so if there's another DT out there, VisceraEyes is scum and a check would be wasted on him. I still don't think it makes any sense whatsoever for VisceraEyes to claim DT and bus Drazerk in that situation if they can't tell how many DTs the setup has.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 17:14 GMT
#994
Well you better ask RoL how it works before someone gets flipped. If town can lose KP in real time, so should mafia.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 17:53 GMT
#997
But every power role has to take the same risk and I would say more often than not it would be a risk worth taking as mafia, but I suppose changing the rules midgame is bad
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 20:32 GMT
#1022
As I mentioned earlier, the scummiest thing youngminii has done so far was wanting to lynch Drazerk despite having no opinion of him based purely on a supposed DT check by TAA, even after it was shown the time line didn't really allow for it. Before TAA flipped blue, he had mostly been avoiding Drazerk completely and claiming his posts were too "shallow" or something.

His response to my case, especially #7 was quite weak as well, considering he freely admitted to tunneling townies in XLII and a lot of veterans also thought VE was acting out of character.

Soon after the case he posted that "he was pretty damn satisfied" with my recent posts, but then 10 minutes later decided keeping his vote on me was worth it after all based on chaos13 looking "god damn pro-town"
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
June 30 2011 20:48 GMT
#1025
As for GM, I don't see how vigi hitting him is useful. The vigi would have to roleclaim and we've no way of knowing if the vigi is town without wasting a DT check on him. Now, this would net us two scum, but the odds them doing this gambit are low. However the mere possibility means GM can't be confirmed in this manner. Even assuming we believe the vigi and thus confirm both, one or both of them will be likely mafia targets. If the vigi is a compulsory vigi, this doesn't seem like a good trade. It seems to me GM has to be lynched sooner or later.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 09:17 GMT
#1103
Actually that's a decent plan
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 09:18 GMT
#1104
Especially since by now it will be clear whether there is one or two compulsive vigis (two is very unlikely anyway)
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 09:19 GMT
#1105
EBWOP: err by tomorrow
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 09:20 GMT
#1107
No, the comp vigi does not have to reveal as he can just shoot GMarshal on d4. Actually even revealing himself to lynch red at this point wouldn't be a bad alternative
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 09:27 GMT
#1112
The only way this plan can go wrong is if there is no compulsive vigi, but we will likely also know that by the end of the day 3. If there is a compulsive vigi, GM is guaranteed to either die tomorrow or be confirmed town
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 09:36 GMT
#1113
So that we can be certain that there isn't more than one compulsive vigi, if there's still a one-shot vigi left, only shoot at the lurker list today
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 14:11 GMT
#1125
So in my analysis of the mechanics I left one thing out, which may be obvious, but it's still something worth considering. I think it's quite likely GF is the one who sends in the kills or at least is around at the time to approve them. Assuming this, we can make a list of players who have been around at the time of the kills and have a reasonably good chance at determining who is GF.

I've been fairly lenient in terms of what I consider "being around", mainly because it's possible that there is no host around when the PM is sent. Some players can be removed from consideration as they aren't realistic GF candidates or even players who would be sending in mafia kills. Palmar initially wasn't around for the first kill and in fact wasn't initially going to participate, so I don't think he can be the GF, just based on the fact he wouldn't have been elected due to being absent or uncertain to participate. Further, the real time aspect of the game makes it likely the GF is someone who can be around at the time of the day post.

The only person who has without a doubt been around every single time is youngminii. Mr. Wiggles has been around at least 4 times and Gmarshal 3.

Of course, it's entirely possible to decide on the kills beforehand, but the kills haven't been sent immediately after the day posts and appear at least somewhat reactionary. It's also possible for the GF to be lurking, but generally GF is very active.

This isn't damning evidence, but taking into account who the likely GF candidates are in terms of experience, thread activity and finally the known scum team, I think there's a high chance one of above is GF. Youngminii is obviously my pick so far.

Oh and I just noticed youngminii actually knew that the game has 4-5 KP and then later "mistakenly" thought mafia has only 1. To be fair, as he pointed out, he is co-hosting Closed Casket mafia, which only has 1. He also was somewhat asking to be DT checked here. Seems odd he wanted possible GF candidates to be checked and included himself. Finally, Dropbear publicly disagreed with youngminii's "case" against me. Some here obviously disagree, but I think the case was really weak and I find it curious Dropbear bothered to adress it even in this length. Could have just been him distancing himself from Youngminii. Oh, and Dropbear was a roleblocker and they both australians, making it easier to coordinate.

A lot of WIFOM above, but when combined with my earlier case against youngminii, I think youngminii is a good lynch today. Someone should compile another list of players who were active at the time of the kills to make sure I got it right.

Youngminii is GF
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 16:55 GMT
#1132
You are right, I did have to assume a lot, which is why I asked that question on irc on day 1
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 16:59 GMT
#1134
Don't they pick both RB and GF? Obviously such a thing has no meaning in a regular game, but this is the first game played in real time on these forums, correct? I didn't put much relevance to that tidbit, it was just something that occurred to me
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 17:00 GMT
#1135
But yes, if everyone on the scum team can act independently, most of what I said above is meaningless. I was made to believe GF usually does send in the actions.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 17:05 GMT
#1137
I played in XLII and some other forums, but yes
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 18:44 GMT
#1142
Oh I didn't believe that at all, it was just something worth considering. It doesn't even have to be the GF, but you can infer things from activity during kills regardless of whether it was the GF who send in the kills.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 19:54 GMT
#1151
He still hasn't provided any analysis of his own. I would definitely vote for him if youngminii isn't a realistic lynch today
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 20:06 GMT
#1156
We won't lynch him today because he is almost certainly correct about his presence on tomorrow's lurker tomorrow. If there's no one-shot vigi and thus no lurker shots, we may have to lynch him tomorrow, though given how dire the mafia situation currently is, I find it unlikely he would be so willingly be a target on himself. I should stop assuming mafia is playing well though, given Drazerk's play and their choice of kills.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 20:06 GMT
#1157
Wait, I guess we will lynch VisceraEyes today
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 20:09 GMT
#1160
Unless someone with more experience of these setups thinks 3 DTs is even remotely possible. Do remember that that would mean 6(!) lurker checks on day 2.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 20:15 GMT
#1162
We already know his "checks": Drakerz and Varpulis. Conveniently Varpulis died before Viscera was forced to reveal his role.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 20:39 GMT
#1170
Viscera checking Drazerk frankly doesn't make sense. Mafia not killing him immediately after day 2 post makes no sense. Do you know why? It's quite possible medics would either send in their PMs too late or still be stuck with their previous targets due to it lasting 36h. These could be explained by mafia being inept of course, but it just to the suspicion.

What is the alternative method of dealing/confirming him then? Make him do the same check tomorrow? Mafia could kill proposed targets and giving him too much leeway would allow him checking another mafia. Moreover, the target would likely be VT. Unless we get lucky, I don't think we can trust him unless he gives us a red.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 20:40 GMT
#1171
EBWOP: adds to the suspicion
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 20:51 GMT
#1174
I would like Viscera to reveal when and why he checked Drazerk. Also explain why you saved your check so late into the day, only to check the person who was already being pushed hard.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 20:55 GMT
#1177
If you read Chaos' later post, he wanted to get Varpulis or VE checked. I'm not sure what that implies because he had ample time to react to the results, assuming he didn't waste his check on someone else earlier. VE can also be GF who shows up as DT, which would explain the bus and the gambit.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 21:04 GMT
#1180
That makes sense except for the part where you says he could stop town from mislynching, as he could just as well be diverting a lynch from his scum mate.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 21:09 GMT
#1182
Well as long as there are at least 2 other mafia around, we can keep him around, but it's unlikely he will be helpful. If VE is red, lynching him today would drop mafia KP to 1. I'm up to lynching Youngminii/sinani201 still, obviously.

VE should still clarify the time line/reasoning behind Drazerk check
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 21:15 GMT
#1186
It's not a major WIFOM, because 3 DTs a setup with 2 lurker checks per DT every 3 days is extremely unlikely. I'm willing to entertain the possibility as long as we have other solid lynch alternatives, but I don't believe it.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 21:20 GMT
#1188
Also VE voting Kenpachi today is interesting, given his flip and his presence on the lurker list
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 21:56 GMT
#1193
I don't understand. When was an hour after you first could? You were around throughout the day. Please give us the exact time and the post
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 22:22 GMT
#1196
VisceraEyes, I'm waiting. Are you saying you send in your check 1 hour after Drazerk's martyring post?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 22:33 GMT
#1197
I'm spamming, but I'm stunned by how long it is taking for him to look at his PM and check the time stamp.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 22:42 GMT
#1203
So you are saying you didn't send it after his martyring post? Please don't disappear this time, I've another question after this
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 22:49 GMT
#1208
VE is 100% scum by the way. He is saying he decided to check a newbie 1 hour into the game based on no posts, but "meta" of him playing poorly in some other game or something nonsensical like that. Then he supposedly got his guilty check back and proceeds not to mention Drazerk at all for hours, until he finally makes his case when there's a wagon forming on him.

VE makes his case June 30 2011 02:37


[B]On June 30 2011 08:37 VisceraEyes wrote:
In light of 206 triumphant return, I will go back and reread 201's posts. I'm not really convinced, but since I'm catching flak for sticking to my guns against Drazerk, I'm willing to bend in the name of clearing my name.

Palmar, if you DARE say I'm scummy for doing so, so help me.....


Are you telling me you got a guilty check in Drazerk, wrote your case, and then 6 hours later you were willing to "bend" in the name of clearing your name? Is that right?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 22:57 GMT
#1212
The mere fact how much he hates being in this thread is a testament to VE's scumness. If he was a DT, he would be in here answering questions immediately. I don't see how anyone could believe his reasoning behind the check, the time of the check, when he made the case and the fact he was willing to switch to another lynch to save himself despite the guilty check
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 23:04 GMT
#1217
Shocking
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 23:11 GMT
#1228
It's almost certain the remaning mafia are among the people defending/advocating keeping VE around after the DT flip. Youngminii is still the best lynch today, however.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 23:28 GMT
#1244
Mr. Wiggles looks pretty bad based on his defense of VE. It's not possible for mafia to have shot VE, all mafia hits are accounted for (Sandroba, Chaos13, Varpulis). If a vigi killed one of those, just claim.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 01 2011 23:36 GMT
#1252
This game has taught me not to presume the scum team isn't awful. It's amazing that they managed to get two of their players on the main wagons on day 1 and then pulled a gambit which basically relied on there being only 1 DT in a 30 player game. Further, they apparently didn't even bother checking if the DT claim and the "guilty check" made any sense in the context of the thread.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 00:07 GMT
#1262
How many hours until lynch, 4? A bit too late for me, alas
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 00:27 GMT
#1267
Mainly due to you playing really poorly and not particularly caring. Lynching you won't get Opz nuked, assuming you are telling the truth?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 00:28 GMT
#1268
Oh nevermind, can't read
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 00:30 GMT
#1269
We could lynch someone else, have you relocate your bombs tomorrow and then vigi you
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 00:31 GMT
#1273
Right, lets do that. Anyone around? Should we lynch Hito or Sinani201

Also if you are gf/mafia, this gambit is a waste of time
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 00:37 GMT
#1278
We could lynch Hyaach too, his post regarding VE is pretty scummy
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 00:41 GMT
#1284
Yes, we are starting to run out of realistic GF candidates. Palmar tunneling Drazerk/VE on day 1 would be a bit bizarre if he were GF, but he did want to avoid lynching VE today or even talking about him
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 00:47 GMT
#1292
I've to go in a bit and don't really have to time to go through post histories, Sinani201/Hyaach and even gtrsts all sound fine
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 00:47 GMT
#1293
That is to say, can we decide quickly, not that you really need my vote
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 01:02 GMT
#1303
That's really nice. So you are a vanilla vigi and not a compulsive one? Do you have a lurker shot left?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 01:19 GMT
#1321
I'm inclined to believe his claim. That graph seems a bit too much effort for a scum and there's no counterclaim. He should still have a lurker shot left, which we can use tomorrow. I think I'll have to vote Hiro unless someone can make a quick case on Wiggles.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 01:23 GMT
#1324
Voting Wiggles, almost purely based on the lack of realistic GF alternatives, so I suppose you'll have to claim too. Meanwhile, Supersoft just stealth voted gtrsrs.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 01:25 GMT
#1327
No that's not what I said, obviously the case has to be convincing. However it's 4am over here and the game is basically won so the standards are lower.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 08:06 GMT
#1391
This is unwinnable for scum. However is left should just give up
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 08:15 GMT
#1393
EBWOP: whoever*
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 08:20 GMT
#1394
Also Jackal58 that flip doesn't make you look too hot right now
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 08:27 GMT
#1395
Also whoever is scum is incredibly bad for not shooting youngminii immediately after day post
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 08:27 GMT
#1396
Unless you are youngminii/hiro, of course
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 09:24 GMT
#1401
GGQ kept his vote on youngminii despite the role claim and being around at the lynch
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 10:45 GMT
#1411
gtrsrs should be vigied/hatted first, I think
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 11:03 GMT
#1413
And what is this Supersoft

http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/viewpost.php?post_id=10089038

Soft claiming vigi? The only reason why you aren't the #1 target is the fact you subbed sinani206, which would mean top 3 lynch wagons on day 1 were scum
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 14:48 GMT
#1418
GGQ subbed Rean who didn't have time to play the game as seriously as "he would like". Don't really want to read too much into this, but if he was a vanilla town I'd say he wouldn't have to put as much effort into it.
On June 29 2011 06:50 Rean wrote:
Just wanted to apologize to everyone for subbing out, but I got in some trouble at school today which means I won't have the time to take this game as serious as i'd like and I don't want to ruin it for others by being inactive.

On June 29 2011 06:29 GGQ wrote:
Havent followed this thread at all, will be back later tonight with a post, I hope.

I'm not mafia, though.

Oh
On June 29 2011 12:36 GGQ wrote:
As a sidenote, to whoever is the 'third party' that's deciding on the lurker list, I am physically capable of posting only in the evenings on most days, so please keep that in mind. Thanks

Ask yourself, would vanilla town worry about being on the lurker list? Perhaps he wasn't thinking clearly, but he also reacted with extreme hostility when I pointed this out.
Also, my 'request' was just a notification to the third party that I work most days and can only post in the evenings, so there's only a ~6 hour span where I'm going to be posting things, no matter my alignment. Also, no matter my alignment I don't want to be on the lurker list for obvious reasons. Can you explain why you think this is scummy?

He found it "extremely unlikely" that VE would bus his teammate and wanted to get some credit for voting to lynch Drazerk instead of VE.

He volunteered to substitute into the game and has been too busy to play every day. He didn't switch from youngminii to Mr. wiggles despite the mad hatter claim and didn't even react to the claim despite being evidently lurking throughout that period. He posted immediately after the lynch. Note how close the vote was (5-4). To be fair, I think he really has been busy as he mafia team wouldn't be this incompetent if he was actively contributing. I think he is a top 3 vigi/lynch candidate.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 14:57 GMT
#1420
I didn't really think Supersoft was red, though I had forgotten that breadcrumb, I was just hoping to get him to post a bit to completely rule him out and to role claim
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 15:18 GMT
#1423
I agree, but you are pretty unreadable due to your tendency not to do much on the first few days or whatever. Certainly not a top target yet
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 15:51 GMT
#1426
Yes, your lurker bomb ruined our perfect record
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 16:31 GMT
#1429
If you aren't comp vigi, there's no comp vigi
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 16:53 GMT
#1431
The scum team should just concede instead of making us waste time on this
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 17:56 GMT
#1440
You should convince whoever is left to spare us the trouble, it's 15-1 and we've a bunch of confirmed townies
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 17:57 GMT
#1441
Though I suppose you can't do that, carry on
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 18:16 GMT
#1443
Vain didn't even vote yesterday?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 20:08 GMT
#1445
Now would be a good time to concede if you happen to be it
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 22:23 GMT
#1457
So Mig, what was GM's master plan in this game? Allow VE to fake claim DT and then get him lynched for town cred? Then when it failed, he panicked and gambled on none of the possible vigis or hatters taking his offer? Then he bussed his GF, knowing full well there was a claimed hatter who was very likely going to bomb him on the day after. Then, instead of immediately shooting YM after the lynch, he decided it would be better to wait and pray YM, without any persuasion, would decided bombing GM wasn't a good idea after all? Scum play has been so bad even disregarding all of the above him being on the scum team makes very little sense.

Having said that, I still think testing his vet claim is okay.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 22:26 GMT
#1460
Also I'd like to remind how scummy it was of GGQ to not switch his vote from youngminii to Wiggles after the hatter claim. He was there the whole time, lurking.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 22:28 GMT
#1461
Timing of the last mafia kill points to it being someone else though
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 22:54 GMT
#1467
Yes, though unfortunately mafia hits have been terrible overall so can't read too much into that
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 22:57 GMT
#1469
For Palmar to be the remaining mafia goon (?) this would have had to be an experimental game in which the mafia team agrees to allow him to bus most of his scum team to gain town cred and then play alone for two weeks. I guess the alternative is that no one on the team thought people would pay attention to Palmar on day 1.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 23:00 GMT
#1474
Day 2 hits were okay, day 1 hits not so much, even if they thought TAA was detective
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 02 2011 23:08 GMT
#1479
I like how Vain returned after 2 days of lurking (he has been active elsewhere) only to post one word reply about him missing the vote. He was my #3 lynch so hopefully he'll get mod killed.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 08:54 GMT
#1496
If we can't fully trust GM, it seems ideal play is to have youngminii plant his bombs on GM and some lurker, who doesn't get named, and have him not detonate the bombs until much later. The remaining scum will have to waste a shot on youngminii eventually. Of course, if youngminii or GM is somehow lying, this will prolong the game unnecessarily.

Someone should do behavioural analysis of the people remaining and determine who is most likely to be a jerk who doesn't mind wasting everyone's time in an almost unwinnable game
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 09:08 GMT
#1498
Hiro hasn't posted in almost 48 hours and only 3 times in the last 5 days or something, so unless he suddenly makes a grand reappearance, he, too, should be mod killed. If it's him, he would have had to send in the Sinani201 kill and intentionally lurk despite the mod kill risk.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 13:44 GMT
#1504
At least two of those should be mod killed
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 13:55 GMT
#1508
Hiro has posted 3 times in 5 days, I suppose if he returns tonight he might dodge the mod kill
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 15:53 GMT
#1513
Opz supposedly also has a lurker shot, so we should determine the best target for that as well. GGQ seems okay
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 16:07 GMT
#1516
Yes, it's also a bit weird how he sort of threw a tantrum when people piled on him after d1 and seemed to lose interest in the game for a while
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 16:41 GMT
#1519
Anyway, if we don't confirm Gmarshal with a bomb, the remaining scum will not shoot him until LYLO and thus him likely being a veteran doesn't do us any much good. If we do confirm him, scum will have to waste a bullet on him eventually. As I said, we don't have to detonate the bombs today, albeit it's tempting
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 16:41 GMT
#1520
Claiming veteran, especially immediately after day post, was such a terrible move
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 16:46 GMT
#1521
I wonder why they didn't role block you, seems like a better idea than randomly role blocking youngminii. It was quite likely one of the vigs would shoot at you to confirm.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 16:53 GMT
#1524
He said he was roleblocked on day 2 and thus his bombs were on his day 1 targets rather than day 2
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 20:01 GMT
#1534
This game should be put on hold until we get the official lurker list and Vain gets mod killed
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 20:15 GMT
#1539
So that means the remaining scum gets second free shot at our blues without them being allowed to use their powers. Further, youngminii likely didn't even send in his normal bomb target because he was waiting for the lurker list
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 21:17 GMT
#1549
I would start with GGQ, he still hasn't explained why he didn't switch his vote from youngminii to wiggles
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 21:22 GMT
#1552
That doesn't make sense, 3 of the people on that list are town
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 21:22 GMT
#1553
Or at least 3
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 21:26 GMT
#1558
On July 04 2011 06:26 Jackal58 wrote:
Show nested quote +
On July 04 2011 06:22 syllogism wrote:
That doesn't make sense, 3 of the people on that list are town

So? We outnumber him 14 - 1

I meant Palmar's excuse for not agreeing with the plan doesn't make sense
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 23:23 GMT
#1584
OP specifically states hatter can detonate himself. It's such a stupid claim that would only keep him alive for a few days at most and he voted to lynch GF
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 03 2011 23:57 GMT
#1591
Well I reread the thread and nothing really stood up. Meta points to the last one being some stubborn veteran, but none of them really make sense as the last scum. I think I'll have to vote GGQ or Eiii today. I don't think, however, we'll be hitting mafia today.

YM should be allowed to post his actions tomorrow no matter what, so if he gets sniped early, the flip should be delayed until his actions are in.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 04 2011 08:47 GMT
#1640
Haha, amazing. Mig I don't think you had a chance even if you survived until lylo. While you weren't my top suspect, you echoed Wiggles' point about the possibility of 3 DTs even after VE started getting more and more suspicious
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 04 2011 08:51 GMT
#1641
And whoa Palmar and I were millers
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 09:42:45
July 04 2011 09:40 GMT
#1648
Mataza you were on my likely townie list along with GM, YM (after claim) and Palmar <3

My lynch order was, before Jackal's plan, GGQ, Eiii, Jackal, Mig, Hyaach, Hiro, Cthsazsa
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 04 2011 09:46 GMT
#1650
I think we would have convinced YM to confirm GM and if we had delayed the confirmation as I suggested, it would have been extremely difficult for you to win if you kept sniping the actually suspicious players
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 09:57:23
July 04 2011 09:56 GMT
#1653
Palmar and GM were 95+% town. The only way them being mafia made sense if this was indeed some huge gambit from the beginning or if they didn't read their role PMs and communicate with their team.

You pushing GM even this late into the game was a scum tell as Palmar pointed out
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 10:04:04
July 04 2011 10:03 GMT
#1658
Well okay you weren't pushing, but you are a good player who was completely avoiding discussing how unlikely it was for GM to be mafia given what occurred on day 1 and 2 and Wiggles flipping GF. Instead you focused on confirmation and you weren't really trying to convince YM to confirm him

e: unfortunately this also applies to a lot of other good players
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 04 2011 10:11 GMT
#1661
Yes, I should have realized there was another role blocker when YM said he got blocked on day 2.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 04 2011 10:37 GMT
#1663
Hiro was town MVP for starting the wagon, obviously
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 13:34:32
July 04 2011 12:45 GMT
#1672
Mig and Wiggles both slipped by somewhat protecting VE at that point, especially since they didn't even mention that hitting scum would lower mafia KP by 1. You put a lot of thought into the defense and glossed over such an important detail. Indeed, the defense made it sound like you just wanted him to live one more day. Further, if you are highly suspicious of someone, you shouldn't be defending him at least until the person in question has at least addressed the concerns. Mig completely ignored VE's really poor explanation, despite being around, I should have noticed that. I had to dismiss Palmar's reluctance as bad play (otherwise your play was pretty flawless) as it didn't make sense for him to aggressively bus everyone else on his team and then object to lynching the most obvious scum in the game.

e: as for GGQ, I didn't realize there was a 50min gap between his post and the Wiggles lynch deadline, the announcement post was just late, so you weren't really lurking when youngminii claim occurred
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 04 2011 14:13 GMT
#1678
TAA was that one post a breadcrumb of some sort?
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
July 04 2011 14:37 GMT
#1681
Yes but then you went on to say you weren't really sure, making it a bit difficult to interpret
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 15:10:14
July 04 2011 15:01 GMT
#1684
Did mafia realize this format makes medics much less useful? It's pretty obvious, but besides the medic timing issues you never have to blindly double stack the target as you can just shoot once and if the target doesn't die, you just shoot again. This is also why I thought VE not dying immediately was really suspicious. Fake claiming DT convincingly in this format is quite difficult.
syllogism
Profile Joined September 2010
Finland5948 Posts
Last Edited: 2011-07-04 21:23:08
July 04 2011 21:22 GMT
#1707
re: QT

I was actually actively fishing for a mafia shot early on, but that got derailed pretty quick. In my first game I didn't mention any blue roles at all as green and now I started doing pretty much the opposite.
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