Well here is what I have seen after waking up and reading through the past few pages of the thread.
We start out with a bandwagon on Drazerk with seemingly no resistance. A DT dies, after he had been tunneling Drazerk. For some reason this convinces everyone to jump off of his bandwagon. MAJOR target deflection onto VisceraEyes, someone who it isn't likely TAA checked, based on his posts. Target deflection is a good way to resist a bandwagon without being obvious. On the VisceraEyes lynch, I see a bandwagon that is even faster and less resisted than Drazerks was. Let's also note that syllogism was gaining a fair number of votes before TAA died.
So tell me, what real reason do you guys have for changing your votes off of Drazerk? What really changed when TAA died?
Here is what I propose. A vig shoots Drazerk. We lynch syllogism or VisceraEyes. All three of these players have very good cases against them. Tomorrow a vig uses their lurker shot on ~OpZ~, a veteran player who has been lurking and is entirely aware of it, and doesn't seem to care about it. People have also brought up sinani206 again. After reading through his posts, he seems more like an inexperienced townie than a mafia.
On June 29 2011 23:34 chaos13 wrote: Well here is what I have seen after waking up and reading through the past few pages of the thread.
We start out with a bandwagon on Drazerk with seemingly no resistance. A DT dies, after he had been tunneling Drazerk. For some reason this convinces everyone to jump off of his bandwagon. MAJOR target deflection onto VisceraEyes, someone who it isn't likely TAA checked, based on his posts. Target deflection is a good way to resist a bandwagon without being obvious. On the VisceraEyes lynch, I see a bandwagon that is even faster and less resisted than Drazerks was. Let's also note that syllogism was gaining a fair number of votes before TAA died.
So tell me, what real reason do you guys have for changing your votes off of Drazerk? What really changed when TAA died?
Here is what I propose. A vig shoots Drazerk. We lynch syllogism or VisceraEyes. All three of these players have very good cases against them. Tomorrow a vig uses their lurker shot on ~OpZ~, a veteran player who has been lurking and is entirely aware of it, and doesn't seem to care about it. People have also brought up sinani206 again. After reading through his posts, he seems more like an inexperienced townie than a mafia.
Dude the votes went ON to Drazerk after the detective died. His vote count doubled in no time after TAA died. He was leading the lynch by about 10 votes.
I completely oppose the cases on both Drazerk and syllogism. Viscera needs to speak up and if I had to choose one of these three it would be him.
Dude the votes went ON to Drazerk after the detective died. His vote count doubled in no time after TAA died. He was leading the lynch by about 10 votes.
I completely oppose the cases on both Drazerk and syllogism. Viscera needs to speak up and if I had to choose one of these three it would be him.
Oh hell I just looked at page 3 and saw a couple Unvote Drazerk, Vote VisEyes
Drazerk is still in the lead. You can ignore my post now
So, here we are, closing in on the end of day 1, and we're still arguing over completely nonsensical stuff. I'm writing this post in hopes that some of you will lend enough trust in it to actually try and get this town organized and hopefully find some scum. This thread is a mess, but we can fix that. I know some of my stuff hasn't been exactly the best posting for creating atmosphere, but I kinda don't function in this game unless some people in town hate me, which makes me severely disappointed VisceraEyes isn't trying to kill me as usual.
We have a couple of good candidates for lynching, some of those should perhaps rather be shot and others might step up their game to the point where it's more beneficial to keep them around, for now.
I'm going to attempt a strategy that I personally haven't tried. I'm going to categorize the people in town and try to make sure that we actually get something done. First up, the list of targets that make good lynch targets.
Lynch candidates
Drazerk - mostly based on TAA's analysis and his inability to contribute to the game, he also seems to have mostly disappeared. Best argument against lynching him is that the bandwagon is forming way too fast. After putting in all the thought it took to make this post, I've gone the whole circle and I now agree he should be lynched.
VisceraEyes - Based on the fact that he continually promises contributions and lies about being working on cases, but has yet to deliver anything. He is also far from his normal town play, and has soft defended GMarshal several times. The best argument against lynching him is that he's the hardest lynch in the group, with very little current support.
Sinani206 - Hasn't contributed anything, refer to DB's and Sandroba's analysis on him for further information. Especially incriminating is the fact that he actually mentioned DropBear has a good case against him, that's a scumslip if I ever see one.
Seriously, from this point on, if you're pro-town, you're voting of Drazerk.
I can completely support vigi shots on sinani206 and VisceraEyes.
Second up, my version of a Zodiac list. This has nothing to do with the player's ability to identify mafia or play well as scum. This isn't a list of players who are good at the game or experienced at the game.
This list contains people who have the ability to lead a town. Whether they're doing it as mafia or town. Everyone on this list warrants a DT check. If you find anyone on this list especially scummy, analyse him, find his links and find his goals. If you think someone on this list is town, listen to him and pray you're right.
This list should be avoided by Vigis, because if everyone here dies, we risk losing the town into inactivity, and we all know how that can end up.
Leaders
GMarshal - GM has unrivalled ability in this player pool to lead and direct the town. He has been accused. Our dead cop pointed out that if he was mafia he'd be Godfather, and that DT checks should not be wasted on him. I agree with this. We keep GM around without checking him, for now.
youngminii - Very strong and aggressive player. I know he has definitely got what it takes to lead the town, both down the right path and awry. He is a great target for a DT check. He has played in my opinion pro town, and I only wish he had slightly more input on the discussion.
chaos13 - Yeah, despite me hating his overly careful town play, he reeks of a player who can take the reins when needed. I really want him to start contributing attacks an aggression, but I guess his style is to remain a bit more in the back. Another good target for a DT chck
Palmar - Fuck yes, I'm including myself because it's true. Trying to lead the town is exactly the point of this post. I am aggressive, borderline trolling, but that's my style. There is obviously no need to DT check me, from my point of view, but if it makes you feel better you can. Oh, and I'm just going to come out and say I'm a complete vanilla green, no special abilities.
Mr. Wiggles - Great player, but less willing than the rest on this list to step up and lead. He's good at interrogating peopleand he's got pretty damn great scumplay. Very good target for a potential DT check.
Now for the third part of my guide, I'm listing up player that are being generally useless, underperforming or otherwise deserve to be shot, especially if they somehow end up on the lurker list.
Let me say this: I fully support Vigilantes making independent decisions, these are just suggestions.
Vigi targets, lurkers, scum and assorted trash
aprudds - lack of content and general uselessness
hiro protagonist - scummy as hell and a good shot target
VisceraEyes - he's great at town when he wants to be, he clearly doesn't want to be.
sylogism - scummy blanket statements, needs to step up his game and start hunting scum
Kenpachi - he never contributes
gtrsrs - aggressive player that has basically shut up this game
And finally, any other lurker I can hardly remeber posting in the thread.
My last list contains strong analysts that generally don't take a leadership role. Whenever someone from this list posts an analysis, read it with a critical mind. Many in here are actually much better at scumhunting thant he people on the leader list, so the townies on here may be our greatest allies.
Analysts and good players that usually don't lead town
DropBear - good analyst, I think he's town
Cthsazsa - some parts of his play are kinda scummy, not sure. need more content
Jackal58 - late game player. Barring a good reason no point in offing him early
Sandroba - one of the best players in the game, he shold probably get DT checked at some point. Listen to him when he's analysing stuff
Vain - useful player, but lacks contributions atm
Varpulis - good analyst, I am hoping for much more input from him.
So, I've left you with lists with ideas on how to proceed, the last thing I want to touch on in my little guide is posting equitette. I've broken these myself, but it's time to clean up.
Posting equitette
Rule 1 - Don't do a post by post analysis that is 10 pages in word. Just highlight the scummy parts and explain the reason. Most importantly, tell us what prompted the investigation of the particular player in the first place.
Rule 2 - Whenever you present a FoS, follow it up with a vote against that person. Explain why you're sticking a vote and FoS on him.
Rule 3 - Do not fucking roleclaim unless you have a great reason to.
Rule 4 - Try to focus on a single or couple of people at the time. No matter how awesome you thin you are, don't post a scumlist of 6 people on day 1 and 2, you did not win the game on day 1/2 and you're just reducing focus.
Rule 5- Don't post unless you have something to say.
Thanks for your time town. I want input on my ideas, but from now on we're working to create a good atmosphere to work in as town.
I know I have left players out. This only means I didn't fit them in any of our lists. I still stand by the notions that vigis should be shooting. This post clears no one. The people not on here might as well be the scum.
Very good post, Palmar. If you're looking for me to be more aggressive, I start out Day 1 really confused and focus on getting town reads rather than scum reads. By Day 2 and 3 I have a much better idea of what to work with and I get more aggressive as the game goes on.
With that said, I will be voting to lynch either Drazerk or VisceraEyes. At this particular moment I am leaning more towards Viscera. I will make my choice between the two within a few hours.
On June 29 2011 23:56 chaos13 wrote: Very good post, Palmar. If you're looking for me to be more aggressive, I start out Day 1 really confused and focus on getting town reads rather than scum reads. By Day 2 and 3 I have a much better idea of what to work with and I get more aggressive as the game goes on.
With that said, I will be voting to lynch either Drazerk or VisceraEyes. At this particular moment I am leaning more towards Viscera. I will make my choice between the two within a few hours.
Please, stick your vote on Drazerk.
There will not be enough time to sway the vote on VisEyes.
I'm hoping a friendly vigi reads this and shoots VisEyes. Either way, day 1 lynches are very often quite random, and going after someone a confirmed DT was tunneling is not a bad idea by any stretch of the imagination.
We need Drazerk dead anyway, and he is the easiest person to convince town to lynch.
And yet, after reading through his posts again I don't get a scum vibe from him. There have been a few decent analysis' done on him, but the lack of resistance to his bandwagon really doesn't sit well with me, and he seems like he is genuinely trying to contribute.
VisceraEyes, on the other hand, has promised analysis multiple times and has not contributed it. This is one of the biggest scum tells I've found in games I've played before.
Here are all the posts in which he has said he is working on a case/will contribute
I go to do research to answer GM's question and I come back to this?!?! Real Time is going to be INSANITY.
Vaccuous and fluffy. I think 201 is leading there with the 8-10 (exaggeration, but just barely) posts concerning his name. Yes, we get it. They're not the same people.
I was also going to say LSB for talking about a plan to put people on the lurker list and then not following through...but....
On June 29 2011 01:15 VisceraEyes wrote: Only 4 pages in 8 hours...not bad guys, but it seems we're caught up in a lot of mudslinging and tunneling, something I thought we as a town vowed not to do d1.
Yes, we have to find a lynch target for today...but come on guys. Bring a case with SUBSTANCE.
I know, I haven't done much in the way of scumhunting yet. You don't have to remind me. I'm working on a case as we speak. Just letting you know I'm awake and reading.
Ciao!
On June 29 2011 08:38 VisceraEyes wrote: It appears the main topic of discussion here is Dazek vs. Syllogism. In the name of keeping discussion down to a few candidates, I'm going to go ahead and read back through these two individuals' posts. Stay tuned!
On June 29 2011 09:03 VisceraEyes wrote: I fail to see how you flipping green will prove ANYTHING about GM. You could just as easily be wrong about GM. However, if you flip RED, it's unlikely that GM is town...but I wouldn't lynch him based on that alone.
Dealing in absolutes is very scummy to me. Just sayin.
Back to reading. -.-
Here are all the posts in which he has provided his personal opinion on the game/suspects. + Show Spoiler +
Not a single one of his posts makes me feel he is a townie.
I am going to stick with trying to lead the town on Drazerk. If you succeed in pulling people in on the VisceraEyes lynch, then I will obviously switch over, as I was the one who brought him up in the first place. My fear was we wouldn't get enough support, but you just might.
My argument for Drazerk is that lynching a target with no content that was being tunneled by a confirmed DT is a better lynch than most on day 1. It is a good lynch.
Good luck with your VisceraEyes train. It's a good lynch too.
I sincerely hope both those players will end up dead tomorrow.
On June 30 2011 00:16 Palmar wrote: Okay, your call.
I am going to stick with trying to lead the town on Drazerk. If you succeed in pulling people in on the VisceraEyes lynch, then I will obviously switch over, as I was the one who brought him up in the first place. My fear was we wouldn't get enough support, but you just might.
My argument for Drazerk is that lynching a target with no content that was being tunneled by a confirmed DT is a better lynch than most on day 1. It is a good lynch.
Good luck with your VisceraEyes train. It's a good lynch too.
I sincerely hope both those players will end up dead tomorrow.
I think it was Mr.Wiggles who brought this up earlier. Don't lynch someone you think is useless - lynch who you think is most scummy.
Seriously, go back through Drazerk's post history and find me posts that are more scummy than VisceraEyes. Show me why he is more likely to be mafia than Vis is, because right now I don't see it, and I don't want a townie lynched when we can get scum.
That invitation extends to everyone who has voted for Drazerk.
Explain to me how he is MORE scummy than VisceraEyes. Tell me why I should vote Drazerk over Vis. Explain why there has been no resistance to his bandwagon. Explain why Viscera hasn't posted the analysis that he has promised to multiple times.
Drazerk has posts that give off scumtells. For Viscera, it's a lack of posts.
I don't understand why the bandwagon against Drazerk is a bad thing. A lot of people are voting for him. That just means Cthsasa's analysis against him was good. It's not OMGUS, it's just agreement.
On June 30 2011 00:54 youngminii wrote: drazerk is more scummy than visceraeyes in that our only DT was tunneling him
that's all you need
The question there is who did he really check? A better argument can be made that he checked GMarshall.
Exactly this. You are betting on the fact that he checked Drazerk, when we have no way of knowing for sure. In fact, he could have been roleblocked or not have used his check at all yet. It brings to mind Mafia XXXIX, in which Mig flipped DT in the endgame. Everyone was convinced he checked me because he randomly said he thought I was town twice. However, the obvious read was not correct - he had checked someone completely different.
On June 28 2011 11:59 Eiii wrote: he's just taking advantage of the lurker-killing mechanic to softclaim a KP role, I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Don't worry about him at all!
Everyone who has been accusing others of making contentless posts, I give you Fluff 101 by it's Honorary Professor, Eiii!
On June 28 2011 13:46 youngminii wrote: Varpulis, you're a GMarshal clone, your post is exactly like his opening post.
Which is pretty ironic if you put it that way.
Anyway, I find myself really not understanding these early days. A few players like to make big posts about how town should play, what down should watch out for, pro-town environment etc but they pretty much all say the same thing. They all seem to have more purpose than content-- that is, they're supposed to establish the posters as big names for people to pay attention to or follow throughout the game. And to be honest, the showiness puts me off a bit. If you're just going to say what everyone's heard before, why do it so loudly?
I promised myself I'd post my thoughts more, so there they are :B
Lists are whatever, they just let blues who don't know what's going on fall into the hands of a) mafia or b) some nice green dude.
He brings up "pro-town play", lists and flashy posters yet fails to give any opinion on whether he likes or dislikes them other than "puts me off a bit". You don't seem to want to tell us what you think Eiii! Your thoughts you promise are simply a list of all possible outcomes!
On June 28 2011 17:04 GMarshal wrote: Hint mafia *isn't* spamming, they are making simple posts that aren't quite lurking, but that serve no purpose, fluffy posts to be clear.
Isn't this exactly what he's accusing hiro of doing? The guy has ~7 posts in the thread, and as TAA points out most aren't stellar contributions.
On June 29 2011 08:06 Eiii wrote: A agree with sandroba on this one-- though syll hasn't been super active or anything, none of his posts make me feel like he's trying hard to stay off the radar. After reading people's thoughts on drazerk and looking through his posts though, I can't say I get the same vibe from him. It even feels like people are trying to divert attention away from him at the moment, so that's where I'll hang my votehat for now.
##Vote: Drazerk
I covered this in my analysis of the voting on Drazerk. His reason for voting Drazerk is completely contradictory to what is actually happening!
CONCLUSION
Eiii is hiding like crazy! He says nothing at all! He is trying to keep people off his scumbuddy GMarshal! He is bandwagoning with very poor reasoning! Now that sinani and Marshal aren't under any pressure anymore he disappears without a trace!
I'd just like to say that I really don't like a case on one person (GM) based on the actions of another (Eiii) I think it makes way too big assumptions and opens us up to scum purposely pretending to be tight with townies, like I think that Drazerk was doing. This especially because, while I don't know the meta here that well, it seems to me that GM would be the best or one of the best people on the scum team and so would tell everyone else to stay away from him because they would be much more likely to slip than he would.
Guys, wow. I've literally never awoken to find this many votes on a totally different target than before (let alone the other target being ME). Holy piss. Yes, I've promised contribution. I've been rereading and rereading and rereading again. The result is not-so-surprising. Instead of defending myself (I have excuses, none of them good), I'm going to share my thoughts with the town as a whole. Give me a few minutes to get everything together, but now that the pressure is on, you can believe me this time. :D
On June 30 2011 01:32 VisceraEyes wrote: Guys, wow. I've literally never awoken to find this many votes on a totally different target than before (let alone the other target being ME). Holy piss. Yes, I've promised contribution. I've been rereading and rereading and rereading again. The result is not-so-surprising. Instead of defending myself (I have excuses, none of them good), I'm going to share my thoughts with the town as a whole. Give me a few minutes to get everything together, but now that the pressure is on, you can believe me this time. :D
I expect nothing short of spectacular from you. You've put it off long enough that I don't trust you at all anymore, and it only makes me more suspicious that you react as soon as pressure is put on you.
On June 30 2011 01:31 Navillus wrote: I'd just like to say that I really don't like a case on one person (GM) based on the actions of another (Eiii) I think it makes way too big assumptions and opens us up to scum purposely pretending to be tight with townies, like I think that Drazerk was doing. This especially because, while I don't know the meta here that well, it seems to me that GM would be the best or one of the best people on the scum team and so would tell everyone else to stay away from him because they would be much more likely to slip than he would.
Hi Navillus.
You have three posts in the thread, none of them containing much useful stuff. You parroted something someone else said about Drazerk, but that's it.
I want your opinion on who might be scum, not on how mafia might play. If you take note you'll see that I left you out of my big post on the town. This means you haven't contributed anything of value, which makes you i turn impossible to analyse, and thus it's anti-town.
Please, take interest in the game.
At present you're probably skirting the lurker list. If you end on it you deserve to be shot.
On June 30 2011 00:40 Sinani201 wrote: Drazerk has posts that give off scumtells. For Viscera, it's a lack of posts.
I don't understand why the bandwagon against Drazerk is a bad thing. A lot of people are voting for him. That just means Cthsasa's analysis against him was good. It's not OMGUS, it's just agreement.
Also I want this to be emphasized about Drazerk. I actually when I was catching up and saw the bandwagon forming went back to look at his posts and the analysises on him with the strong mindset that he was not guilty, 1. because I think bandwagons this early aren't great and 2. Because I consciously didn't want to look like some lurker who was just jumping on the easy bandwagon, but after reading Cthsazsa's analysis and even more so Drazerk's response, he looks really scummy. The analysis has great points but I think that he really shows scumminess in his follow-up, he martyrs and, as I pointed out before, switches from GM is scummy, to GM isn't, to HE'S A CONFIRMED INNOCENT, which I really think there was no warrant for as a townie and makes little to no sense.
On June 30 2011 01:31 Navillus wrote: I'd just like to say that I really don't like a case on one person (GM) based on the actions of another (Eiii) I think it makes way too big assumptions and opens us up to scum purposely pretending to be tight with townies, like I think that Drazerk was doing. This especially because, while I don't know the meta here that well, it seems to me that GM would be the best or one of the best people on the scum team and so would tell everyone else to stay away from him because they would be much more likely to slip than he would.
Hi Navillus.
You have three posts in the thread, none of them containing much useful stuff. You parroted something someone else said about Drazerk, but that's it.
I want your opinion on who might be scum, not on how mafia might play. If you take note you'll see that I left you out of my big post on the town. This means you haven't contributed anything of value, which makes you i turn impossible to analyse, and thus it's anti-town.
Please, take interest in the game.
At present you're probably skirting the lurker list. If you end on it you deserve to be shot.
First, I'm pretty sure my point about Drazerk was not me parroting, I don't think anyone else pointed out that he might've been trying to frame GM, and if someone did I didn't see it, but to contributing I'll go back through the thread and see who I'm suspicious of, hopefully soon. (I'm really busy IRL right now sorry)
EPT
