EPTOn July 09 2011 16:18 Curu wrote:
btw I only read the role claim post before I saw this. A failsafe claim is almost always a fakeclaim. It didn't even require analysis of any of citizen's posts.
It's too bad Palmar and Amber got so tunneled in on JeeJee.
This is why you never rely on claims unless you are playing with very experienced players who can spot out fakeclaims. Some players are sickeningly good at this at Mafia Scum forums, I saw someone pegged as SK and all powers revealed just because of the powers he claimed.
btw I only read the role claim post before I saw this. A failsafe claim is almost always a fakeclaim. It didn't even require analysis of any of citizen's posts.
It's too bad Palmar and Amber got so tunneled in on JeeJee.
This is why you never rely on claims unless you are playing with very experienced players who can spot out fakeclaims. Some players are sickeningly good at this at Mafia Scum forums, I saw someone pegged as SK and all powers revealed just because of the powers he claimed.
It's kind of hard to peg citi.zen's claim as fake because of the powers he claimed. No one except Scum would know RoL dying reveals flips for the rest of the game. So if anyone tried to argue with citi.zen about that then they'd have to explain where the flips came from.
When ilj investigated RoL and saw Mafia Janitor that's the only hint you could have had without taking into account the way he survived a shot. Really hard to call it a fake claim because Mafia could just as easily turn around and say Palmar is lying about his Virgin role because he can't prove it while citi.zen "proved" it by virtue of being alive. In this instance arguing about whether or not it's failsafe isn't going to work very well.
On July 09 2011 18:48 Kurumi wrote:
1. Mafia did nothing to win this game
Why? Two major errors made by town gave them the game - Caller trolling(mostly lying) and ilj's shady role claim. Also deciding on hits on N0(and other ones, with claims too -_-) couldn't be easier:
Tier 1 (most likely to get hit, not in particular order) : Caller, GGQ, Fishball, LSB, BloodyC0bbler, Amber[LighT] (notice that only BC is the VT)
Tier 2 (might get hit based on reads) : Chezinu, Scamp, Jackal58, ilovejonn,
Tier 3 (new players, would never got hit) Palmar, VisceraEyes, Kurumi
The scum's game was just shooting vets and getting free blues too, I tried to attract shots asking some dumb questions about Coroner to get hit - getting perhaps Coroner Kurumi is worse than getting Vanilla Townie BloodyC0bbler, still.
2. Chezinu and Caller are amazing players
Really, Chez had amazing reads, but his case was never brought up. I was against lynching Chezinu as You know - because ilj stinked scum like heck and after his flip maybe we'd think what should be next. Caller dug his own grave - but was resilient and uncontrollable by anyone.
I am sad these players did not try to influence the town more - especially Chezinu.
3. Giving every Mafia Member a role is dumb
Seriously? Scumdoc is like roleblocker on vigilante, scum team had a Roleblocker and roleblocker for DTs - Lawyer. Scumteam had 2aKP(anti-KP), the same amount as town. Also the Janitor role.. Giving scum even more information than they need.. Amazing.
Just think how it'd go without Caller shooting GM and getting Roleblocker N0.
Conclusion
Setup favored scum heavily, town had really no option to play high risk - high reward style, role distribution played out terribly, I am angry at ILJ and myself - because the only thing I could do entire game is to try attract the hits(and failing), lie and pick on shady roleclaim.. I didn't notice how citi.zen was lurking (I was suspicious of Amber because of that) and couldn't think logically - why the heck last scum would get replaced when it can't win? Modkill would be fair and fast.
My thoughts on Closed Casket Mafia
1. Mafia did nothing to win this game
Why? Two major errors made by town gave them the game - Caller trolling(mostly lying) and ilj's shady role claim. Also deciding on hits on N0(and other ones, with claims too -_-) couldn't be easier:
Tier 1 (most likely to get hit, not in particular order) : Caller, GGQ, Fishball, LSB, BloodyC0bbler, Amber[LighT] (notice that only BC is the VT)
Tier 2 (might get hit based on reads) : Chezinu, Scamp, Jackal58, ilovejonn,
Tier 3 (new players, would never got hit) Palmar, VisceraEyes, Kurumi
The scum's game was just shooting vets and getting free blues too, I tried to attract shots asking some dumb questions about Coroner to get hit - getting perhaps Coroner Kurumi is worse than getting Vanilla Townie BloodyC0bbler, still.
2. Chezinu and Caller are amazing players
Really, Chez had amazing reads, but his case was never brought up. I was against lynching Chezinu as You know - because ilj stinked scum like heck and after his flip maybe we'd think what should be next. Caller dug his own grave - but was resilient and uncontrollable by anyone.
I am sad these players did not try to influence the town more - especially Chezinu.
3. Giving every Mafia Member a role is dumb
Seriously? Scumdoc is like roleblocker on vigilante, scum team had a Roleblocker and roleblocker for DTs - Lawyer. Scumteam had 2aKP(anti-KP), the same amount as town. Also the Janitor role.. Giving scum even more information than they need.. Amazing.
Just think how it'd go without Caller shooting GM and getting Roleblocker N0.
Conclusion
Setup favored scum heavily, town had really no option to play high risk - high reward style, role distribution played out terribly, I am angry at ILJ and myself - because the only thing I could do entire game is to try attract the hits(and failing), lie and pick on shady roleclaim.. I didn't notice how citi.zen was lurking (I was suspicious of Amber because of that) and couldn't think logically - why the heck last scum would get replaced when it can't win? Modkill would be fair and fast.
1.) citi.zen did a pretty good job of "winning" this. sandroba managed to not get lynched until very late in the game. That's not exactly "doing nothing".
I also don't know why you think the Scum would bother hitting you if you're asking dumb questions. Really, unless you are perceived as a threat most competent Scum teams aren't going to care what you do. If you want to attract a NK - scum hunt. Even an unconfirmed Townie with their head on straight eventually becomes a threat. The thing is the Mafia are trying to kill everyone else before you hit that point. If you never do then you'll be alive in the end game most of the time and in general that is a BAD thing for a townie. Getting NK'd a lot by Scum in your games usually means you're pretty good or at least perceived to be.
2.)Chezinu had good reads but unfortunately none of that matters if you don't convince people. I've said it time and time again it's not what you know but what you can convince people to believe. Players like L are dangerous and get more respect (as Scum at least
) because he can convince people of stuff even with evidence staring them right in the face that says it can't be possible. That level of play is really much more valuable than someone who figures stuff out but doesn't communicate it to the rest of the Town. Caller actually started off well. Even his first lie about having 1 shot wasn't too damaging. It was everything else and the interaction with BC that sent everything down hill.3.)I don't know if you noticed this but the Town had *a lot* of power roles. In fact I almost had to nerf them because more than 50% of the Town had power roles. Let's review:
The Town had:
2 Vigilantes
Jack of All Trades
Cop
Medic
Virgin
Mason
Forensic Scientist
Between them they had:
5 KP
3 information abilities
2 prots
1 null for the NK
2 townies able to confirm their innocence
1 role able to spot the dead bodies that Mafia investigated and also get roles and alignment
and 1 ability (Mimic) that could do a number of things that pretty much if targeted to Mafia almost revealed them in any way
Mafia had:
1 roleblocker who couldn't act on consecutive days
1 doc
janitor
lawyer
The Mafia could null 1 power role per night, prot 1 person, make 1 person flip Innocent (which never helped them), and their main advantage was tied to 1 role which died relatively early. The
Town had more power roles than the Scum by twice the count and that's without counting the person that gets Masoned to Amber.
How was this setup favored for Scum again? Even with 2 townie modkills and the surviving Vigilante only hitting 1 Scum the Town STILL almost won. I mean imagine if ILJ just happened to investigate GM early on, then when RoL dies the Town asks for a mass claim? Talk about an insane advantage. Not only did the Town have their traditional numbers advantage but you were so close to having a pretty big come up on information while the Mafia were stuck with 1 KP. They had NO additional KP while the Town could nullify the Mafia NK up to 3 times. Once again - the Town could have no lynched for 3 days at one point while claiming and shit would have hit the fan. Show me a scenario with these roles that Scum had a major advantage and I'll believe you. Otherwise I don't see where the basis of this is coming from.
town had really no option to play high risk - high reward style
And thankfully you didn't. When this happens the Town usually loses.
@Palmar/sandroba: deconduo got modkilled for a mistake he made. He had referenced something in his PM that Caller saw and could have used to know that duo was a Vigilante and therefore innocent. He didn't do it on purpose afaik. You can role claim all you want and that won't get you modkilled but what duo did left me no choice.
On July 09 2011 21:10 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
I knew I played a bit sloppy n0, but which posts were you referring to specifically?
![[image loading]](http://img691.imageshack.us/img691/2979/effdischiz.gif)
I knew I played a bit sloppy n0, but which posts were you referring to specifically?
On June 29 2011 05:58 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
These two sentences contradict each other. I agree with palmar for the most part. We shouldn't hold back hits for the sake of holding them back. If you have KP and have someone you think is scum for whatever reason go for it. There is almost no reason to wait for general town consensus on who is scum and fire a shot. I have pushed this agenda in there games, and I will do it now. I think single people are better at making educated decisions than a group, at least when it comes to killing a mafia.
I would also rather our KP get's used than it not be used, but I wouldn't say use ALL of it on Night 1, that would be foolish. But I wouldn't say hold onto your kill like it's a first born. Kill people you find scummy, as you said in the bold, we are never going to be absolutely certain someone as scum to make a unilateral decision, and holding out for that 99% guarantee just isn't going to happen.
Err I droned a bit, but to summarize as soon as our KP roles have someone they reasonably think is scummy, just fire the shot. Don't even think twice. I wouldn't go as far to say that ALL KP should be used N1 though, that might be a bit too crazy.
These two sentences contradict each other. I agree with palmar for the most part. We shouldn't hold back hits for the sake of holding them back. If you have KP and have someone you think is scum for whatever reason go for it. There is almost no reason to wait for general town consensus on who is scum and fire a shot. I have pushed this agenda in there games, and I will do it now. I think single people are better at making educated decisions than a group, at least when it comes to killing a mafia.
I would also rather our KP get's used than it not be used, but I wouldn't say use ALL of it on Night 1, that would be foolish. But I wouldn't say hold onto your kill like it's a first born. Kill people you find scummy, as you said in the bold, we are never going to be absolutely certain someone as scum to make a unilateral decision, and holding out for that 99% guarantee just isn't going to happen.
Err I droned a bit, but to summarize as soon as our KP roles have someone they reasonably think is scummy, just fire the shot. Don't even think twice. I wouldn't go as far to say that ALL KP should be used N1 though, that might be a bit too crazy.
For one why would any Townie say not to hold back Vigi shots as if that is sound advice? Especially in a no flip game? If anything just shooting too much is bad until you can at least figure out the alignment of the dead body. When you said "there is almost no reason to wait for general consensus" that was the tipping point. Sure, Vigilantes need to act without listening to the Town at times. But saying that right after telling people not to hold back just screams "kill at will no matter what".
Then you said you'd rather the KP get used up. Once again this is a no-flip game: You'd have to be pretty stupid as Town to think that using up all the Town KP fast is a good idea. There were no clashing role claims, no investigations, and no situation where between 2 people on had to be Scum.
So what sense did it make for Vigilantes to be shooting all willy nilly again?
I feel like I did play a bit subpar this game, especially the things I pointed out. I see what you are saying about how my advice was bad in this scenario.
