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That's the only way to tell really.
Also, to add on to that, if RedFF tells us anything about Amber, we'll need amber to confirm that it's true. That is, if Amber isn't restricted in PMs as well -_-
A word on masons, if they exist:
Add people you think are town, to contribute to analysis, but don't be afraid to add people you are unsure of so that you can poke and prod in PM land as well. PMs are a good way to gather information as town, and so long as you don't do anything stupid (Read: Claim in PM), I don't think it can hurt but only help to find scum if they're present in a mason circle.
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@Amber[Light]
Do you have an ability that can help town?
@Chaos13
There's no reason to kill off Amber[Light] right now. If he's useless town, shooting or lynching is a waste. If he's scum, then he's already made himself a public figure, and also, is incapable of any misdirection. A simple role or alignment check on him will resolve problems.
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On June 01 2011 01:52 DropBear wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 01:25 Node wrote:
##Vote sandroba
Also, it sounds silly, but I'm pretty sure Amber is town at this point. He's said a lot with very little and is clearly trying to help us out. Ok, so you're voting because Amber's trying really hard. Sandroba is a terrible lynch. The main reason seems to be his original plan. It was against the rules but when he posted his idea it was before deconduo clarified the rules. It might not be the best plan but he's obviously trying to help. He is accused of turning quiet. Within only 2 pages of the announcement of his plan the following people told him his idea was terrible: chaos13 Eternalmisfit Rean Varpulis Palmar Mr Wiggles BloodyC0bbler GMarshal stefftastiq redFF Mataza That is a lot of negativity to swallow, why is everyone surprised that he has gone quiet? I'd pipe down too if I was told by half the town to stfu. Varpulis, who tried to alter the plan is then jumped on next. He decides to "withdraw" and is immediately jumped on by kita and Palmar. Their plans might not be good ones but it doesn't make them Mafia. They are just trying to help, if poorly. Redtooth in XXXIX was an example of that. Their contributions are much larger than several players so far, even if they have gone quiet recently.
I'd like to address part of this quickly. Here's San's post, for reference:
On May 31 2011 05:29 sandroba wrote:
Alright, I have a sugestion to make. Everyone should state which player they designed the role for. We don't know how much KP mafia actually has, so after today things might get confusing. This way we can implement LAL more effectively. I would also like to sugest that any person who claims before having any IMPORTANT (that lead us to scum) info or are very close to being lynched to be policy lynched. Only time it's ok to claim without meeting the above conditions is when town decides it's time to massroleclaim. Failing to claim at mass roleclaim will also result in a policy lynch.
You say, that San is a bad lynch, because he is trying to help. You then provide excuses for him going MIA because a lot of people shot his plan down.
The thing I see, about Sandroba's plan, isn't that it was just bad, it's that it was bad in a way that benefited scum while providing nothing for town. So, proposing a plan like that can seem like "trying", but it does nothing to actually contribute and if people don't see through it, benefits scum. I explained this already after he proposed his plan:
On May 31 2011 05:36 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Yes, knowing the pick order doesn't do much to help town, but does a lot to help scum. If town sees that the person they picked for is fake-claiming, they need to use their discretion on what to do. They can call them out on it right away, or maybe the role they gave is very useful for town, and shouldn't be claimed, or the fake claim will draw something the real role would want, like a hit. It's entirely situational, and up to the person who gave the role to know what to do, in what situation. A list of who gave something to who, just lets mafia set up even more confusion, and makes it easier to fake-claim.
Then, after his plan is shot down, he more or less disappears. You say it's just because everyone was negative to him, but for me, that shouldn't be an excuse to stop trying as town. When you come up with a bad idea, you try to fix it, or you find a better one, you don't just give up on it. Looking at his behavior, it seems scummy to me. Make a bad plan that benefits mafia, get told that it's bad, disappear? This doesn't sit well with me, because it seems like someone trying to draw attention away from himself after he proposed something scummy.
So, for now ##Vote: Sandroba
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On June 01 2011 08:21 Mataza wrote:Show nested quote +On June 01 2011 08:15 redFF wrote:On May 31 2011 21:44 Mataza wrote:
No problem. I don´t vote yet, because I don´t intend to vote more than once.
I looked into 5 people who gave me a strange gut feeling, and only kitaman actually kept giving me that after rereading.
Its a pretty weak case, and I consider his role and his meta behaviour to be possible explanations. I can´t truly judge his meta behaviour, but his responses are unsatisfactory so far.
That´s all there is to it from my side. On May 31 2011 22:28 Mataza wrote:
Well Jackal, because an opinion is a fickle thing.
Every little thing you read influences it. It may change several times a day.
A vote, on the other hand, is a big commitment to me. It is my sign of dedication towards my opinion. It won´t move that easily, and therefore placing my vote should have a greater impact. Mataza, you have posted nothing of use this game. And you saying you are voting me until Amber wiggles his tail to confirm i posted his list is a huge contradiction to something you seemed pretty steadfast on before. So you are certain I'm scum and won't change your vote? I am very suspicious of your list, because Sandroba is on the list. Amber is voting Sandroba right now. I thought I bolded that part. This list is a direct contradiction to Ambers vote.
The list isn't a list of pro-town players. It's a list of players he perceives as strong and influential. The point of the list, is that as people are killed off it, scrutiny is placed on the players remaining on it. It's meant for pressure and to promote people on the list to act pro-town, not to say who he believes the town are. So, it's not a contradiction, it just means he wants more pressure on Sandroba.
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On June 01 2011 07:38 GMarshal wrote:
Instead answer these questions.
1.) If you were a vigilante who would you shoot tonight
2.) if you were a kingmaker who would you make king tomorrow
3.) what is your favorite colour
4.) Of all the players with more than ten posts in the game at the moment, which seem the scummiest?
1) Rean or Tackster maybe, hard to say at this point
2) Sandroba, what he did with it would tell me his alignment 100%
3) Green, but I enjoy many colours, it depends on the object
4) I thought Sandroba, but I'm re-evaluating, maybe tnkted
Did you answer your own questions, GM?
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@BC
I brought his plan up, because it was related to why I thought he was scum. I didn't jump back to discussing it's merits, only that it was a bad plan in a way which benefited mafia. That was my bit of analysis, to add on to Sandrobo. However, his reactions and posts in the resulting shitstorm made me start to think he was less likely to be scum, and more likely to be a townie, pushing a really bad plan.
That said, I'm going to place my vote on Tackster for now.
##Vote: Tackster
Night.
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Hey guys, back.
Firstly, Day 1 wasn't very productive. I don't think this needs to be said, but it bears repeating. Among the newer players, you need to cut the back and forth. It doesn't amount to anything, and it only serves to clog up the thread. State your points once, clearly, and then only bring it up again when it's relevant. There was a lot of arguing, which only causes obfuscation, and lets scum hide behind it. We should also reduce the amount of one-liners and repetition. We get that you think someone is scummy, there's no need to repeat it over and over. For example, redFF, I can see you want to kill Mataza, but you don't need to express the desire every 10 posts, especially when you don't add anything more to it besides repetition. We also need to stop posting one-liners. They're useless, spammy, and normally barely relevant to the discussion at hand.
Next, the sudden switch of the lynch at the last second was suspicious, to say the least. I think a lot of it was over-eager town, but it still sits oddly with me, to the extent that I'd suggest a DT check on San/Tack, and a vote-list check on Viscera lynch if possible. It's also unfortunate that BC was killed, as he could have been a valuable asset for town, and it was easy to see he was trying to help focus town. I'm going to go back and look at BC's posts to see if there's anything to learn, and I also think his Zodiac list bears looking at.
Last, my thoughts for potential night actions:
Detective-style roles:
Tackster (For reasons stated)
Sandroba (For reasons stated)
GMarshal (Acting oddly in my eyes, worth a check)
tnkted (Odd actions, claims lynch invulnerability and I'd rather not waste one trying)
Palmar (Fist-bumps can be anything, it would be nice to know he's town, at least)
Vote-list checks:
VisceraEyes lynch, Day 1 (Reasons already stated)
Mason style roles:
Use your discretion. If you can pressure in PM, pick people who may be scum to ascertain their alignment. If you're unsure of your abilities, pick people who are likely to be town and strong analysts to collaborate with.
Medics:
Dropbear
Node
Use it on people, you think are likely to be town, and who are worth protecting or are likely to be hit.
Vigilantes and other KP:
I'm actually unsure of this at the moment. I might come back later after thinking it through more, but I hope they use their discretion. Just because you can shoot night 1 doesn't mean you need to, especially if you have no strong scum reads. Carpet bombing the town probably isn't a great idea when there's already so much confusion.
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On June 02 2011 10:38 Mig wrote:
I can't see any reason to sinani to lie about this. If he is lying and we didn't kill him. Then whomever gave him his role would tell everyone that sinani was lying and lynch him. Just seems like way too big of a risk for a mafia to take.
So I think it is safe to assume he is telling the truth. In that case we should take the trade and have bum kill him that way we don't have to use any of our kp to do it down the line.
It couldn't be a recruiting role, could it? As in it brings back BC, but changes his alignment? I'm trying to think of any possibility where scum would want to do this, and that's about the only one I can think of. The only other thing, would be if he's something like a methman or NRA member, but then he'd only do a 1 to 1 trade, and that's bad for scum, so it's unlikely. Also, if we send Bum in to do it, any possible traps become irrelevant, because they won't kill town anyways :p
I think we should go for it, if we're sure of his alignment.
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Wow, ninja'd 
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What the hell?
Last night I shot at Sinani, because I wasn't convinced that bum was an SK and not scum, and then further that he would actually shoot sinani because it would bring back the batman.
Somehow, my shot was redirected to deskscaress.
I also wouldn't put it past scum to frame me.
Bum is scum, mafia has a redirector or busdriver, and I was framed. That's all I can think of. They didn't want sinani killed so that BC could come back, so they sent the shot somewhere else.
If you guys want me to claim, I will.
Can a roleblock stop the SK from killing?
I don't believe Bum about being roleblocked, that's too convenient, especially because I know mafia have a redirector.
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On June 03 2011 06:24 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 06:22 Mr. Wiggles wrote:What the hell? Last night I shot at Sinani, because I wasn't convinced that bum was an SK and not scum, and then further that he would actually shoot sinani because it would bring back the batman. Somehow, my shot was redirected to deskscaress. I also wouldn't put it past scum to frame me. Bum is scum, mafia has a redirector or busdriver, and I was framed. That's all I can think of. They didn't want sinani killed so that BC could come back, so they sent the shot somewhere else. If you guys want me to claim, I will. Can a roleblock stop the SK from killing?I don't believe Bum about being roleblocked, that's too convenient, especially because I know mafia have a redirector. get out scum. I don't think framing matters when Decon tells us you are scum in the OP!!!!!
How does he say I'm scum? When desks dies, his ability puts the alignment of the player in public. If I was framed, my alignment would show up red. Even look at what Kenpachi said:
On June 03 2011 06:15 Kenpachi wrote:
Besides Bum, Wiggles is easily the strongest player in the game. With him gone, i believe Mafia is most likely a bunch of puppets.
You think mafia wouldn't frame me? I'm likely to attract DTs, simply because I was on several Zodiac lists, as well as being a player whose alignment is hard to tell.
What about what I'm saying doesn't make sense? The two things are completely unrelated. I was framed, and Sinani was replaced with deskscaress. This isn't some scum master plan, just a fucking terrible coincidence.
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If you think I'm scum, go back through the thread, and tell me how I'm scum. Read my posts. I haven't been as active as I've wanted to be, but I've been trying to help the town, and avoid getting embroiled in the mass confusion that's been so prevalent.
Look at what I wrote during the night:
On June 02 2011 07:51 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Vigilantes and other KP:
I'm actually unsure of this at the moment. I might come back later after thinking it through more, but I hope they use their discretion. Just because you can shoot night 1 doesn't mean you need to, especially if you have no strong scum reads. Carpet bombing the town probably isn't a great idea when there's already so much confusion.
I had no idea who to shoot last night, and was probably going to save my shot to avoid exactly the kind of massacre that happened today. Than sinani claimed that he could revive bum, so I wrote:
On June 02 2011 10:45 Mr. Wiggles wrote:Show nested quote +On June 02 2011 10:38 Mig wrote:
I can't see any reason to sinani to lie about this. If he is lying and we didn't kill him. Then whomever gave him his role would tell everyone that sinani was lying and lynch him. Just seems like way too big of a risk for a mafia to take.
So I think it is safe to assume he is telling the truth. In that case we should take the trade and have bum kill him that way we don't have to use any of our kp to do it down the line. It couldn't be a recruiting role, could it? As in it brings back BC, but changes his alignment? I'm trying to think of any possibility where scum would want to do this, and that's about the only one I can think of. The only other thing, would be if he's something like a methman or NRA member, but then he'd only do a 1 to 1 trade, and that's bad for scum, so it's unlikely. Also, if we send Bum in to do it, any possible traps become irrelevant, because they won't kill town anyways :p I think we should go for it, if we're sure of his alignment.
However, thinking about it, I weighed the risks that sinani was lying didn't outweigh the benefits that we would get from having BC back as a confirmed town analyst. As well, I wasn't personally worried about actually dying if it was a trap.
Look back through my posts, what I said correlates to what I did.
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On June 03 2011 06:34 Cthsazsa wrote:GUYS! I promise Wiggles is lying.  I created Desk's role and I specifically stated in the pm that I sent in that, "If you are killed, your killer's alignment is revealed to everyone". I am begging you guys, please do not believe wiggles, we need to lynch him first before we kill anyone else as he is a Confirmed ScumMr. Wiggles, 
Yes, your killers alignment, just like a DT checks alignment. However, framers make an alignment show up as red to all checks done that night.
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On June 03 2011 06:41 Cthsazsa wrote:Wiggles there is no way to "coincidentally" or "mistakenly" be identified as scum. I even asked Dec if he was going to change my role, and he specifically said, Show nested quote +Its looks great to me One of the few roles I don't think I'll change at all. This isn't a matter of not appearing scummy. You killed desk, and we are going to avenge his death with your blood
Have you never heard of a framer?
Here's what a normal framer role looks like:
Framer
You have the power to change how one's alignment and role appears to any detective type actions performed on them that night. You may use it on one person per night and may not use it on yourself.
So, you're going to tell me, that in this set-up, with such crazy roles, there's no way that I could have shown up as red to a check, unless I was red?
I mean, even Sandroba's role was a framer type role, and you're saying there's no possibility of an alignment framer?
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On June 03 2011 06:46 Kurumi wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 06:45 hiro protagonist wrote:On June 03 2011 06:44 Cthsazsa wrote:On June 03 2011 06:40 hiro protagonist wrote:On June 03 2011 06:34 Cthsazsa wrote:GUYS! I promise Wiggles is lying. I created Desk's role and I specifically stated in the pm that I sent in that, "If you are killed, your killer's alignment is revealed to everyone". I am begging you guys, please do not believe wiggles, we need to lynch him first before we kill anyone else as he is a Confirmed ScumMr. Wiggles, If you created desks role, and you where scum, and you knew you had a framer, you would do it...  That is a HUGE wifom and a HUGE "what if". Why are you so easily defending him, scum?. If someone kills Wiggles now, and he flips green, you guys will know I am scum. But I promise you, the above will never happen. because I know something you dont. Yeah,but You're not going to share it because it is fast and You can't catch it,right. Wiggles,mafia would have no point in framing You,so stop it.
Why would there be no point? The entirety of day one was a clusterfuck of bad accusations with shitty reasoning. Greens calling greens red. There were maybe two points of analysis done the entire day. Any intelligent DT would know not to check people based on those analysis.
Then look at me. I wasn't incredibly active Day 1, only showing up at certain times to post, and not doing a ton of public scumhunting. I was a null-read, not scummy, not incredibly pro-town. If I was a DT, I would check myself, simply because it would be hard to get a read. Scummy people look scummy, and you lynch them, and pro-town people look pro-town, so you protect them. People you can't get reads on, you check with a Detective. A framer has to think like a detective.
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On June 03 2011 06:49 Cthsazsa wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 06:45 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On June 03 2011 06:41 Cthsazsa wrote:Wiggles there is no way to "coincidentally" or "mistakenly" be identified as scum. I even asked Dec if he was going to change my role, and he specifically said, Its looks great to me One of the few roles I don't think I'll change at all. This isn't a matter of not appearing scummy. You killed desk, and we are going to avenge his death with your blood Have you never heard of a framer? Here's what a normal framer role looks like: Framer
You have the power to change how one's alignment and role appears to any detective type actions performed on them that night. You may use it on one person per night and may not use it on yourself. So, you're going to tell me, that in this set-up, with such crazy roles, there's no way that I could have shown up as red to a check, unless I was red? I mean, even Sandroba's role was a framer type role, and you're saying there's no possibility of an alignment framer? Wiggles please read the BOLD. You didn't have an action performed on you! You activated Desk's role by KILLING HIM!!! Fellow townies please do the right thing
It's a detective type ability. It doesn't matter if it's activated on death, it's still an alignment check, and thus susceptible to frames. I've told you what I thought, so I'm done arguing. I'm just going to post my thoughts on players now, instead of derailing the town more.
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You are Jules Winnfield. That's right, the worlds most Bad Ass Mother Fucker. You carry a gun that has 2 bullets, which you can use once a night to "lay your vengeance upon thee" (kill someone). You are also so intimidating that you can roleblock someone at night. You may only do 1 of the 2. Should someone bust out of the bathroom and start firing shot after shot at you, they will all miss (know matter how many people are trying to kill you), which you see as a "miracle"(unless you are under doc protection, then its not a miracle). Should a "miracle" happen, you decide to give up your life of murder and intimidation and become a vanilla guy with no special ability.
He can confirm
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On June 03 2011 07:03 redFF wrote:
Ok guys we lynch wiggles. No more discussion of that please. We now have a day to hunt scum. Less with the spam and retarded roleclaims, more with the scumhunting. GO look at what i have said about Mataza, he is clear mafia at this point and refuses to defend himself lol.
Also, don't listen to anything bum or kurumi say, they are not town so it is best to ignore them unitl they give us a reason to lynch them.
I'm still not sure who I'm going to mason with today if somebody wants to be mason'd then by all means tell me and I will consider it.
Stop derping up the thread and start finding scum. No more Wiggles discussion, as steff seems to have confirmed that he was scum. Lets get on to finding the rest of them now!
How am I confirmed scum? You're going to lynch another green because you don't give things thought and just blindly tunnel. I don't get how no one else is looking at this, and just accepting it blindly as true. That's what scum love to do, hide behind wrong DT checks and ride with easy lynches. Another day wasted.
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On June 03 2011 07:09 redFF wrote:Show nested quote +On June 03 2011 07:06 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On June 03 2011 07:03 redFF wrote:
Ok guys we lynch wiggles. No more discussion of that please. We now have a day to hunt scum. Less with the spam and retarded roleclaims, more with the scumhunting. GO look at what i have said about Mataza, he is clear mafia at this point and refuses to defend himself lol.
Also, don't listen to anything bum or kurumi say, they are not town so it is best to ignore them unitl they give us a reason to lynch them.
I'm still not sure who I'm going to mason with today if somebody wants to be mason'd then by all means tell me and I will consider it.
Stop derping up the thread and start finding scum. No more Wiggles discussion, as steff seems to have confirmed that he was scum. Lets get on to finding the rest of them now! How am I confirmed scum? You're going to lynch another green because you don't give things thought and just blindly tunnel. I don't get how no one else is looking at this, and just accepting it blindly as true. That's what scum love to do, hide behind wrong DT checks and ride with easy lynches. Another day wasted. Stop, I wasn't even part of the damn town lynch. Also, deskcaress's role has said you were scum in decon's post. And steff has said you shot deskcaress. Deskcaress' role doesn't even look like a role that can be effected by framers. Also, who would make someone a framer??? Doesn't really seem very likely at all. Everyone ignore Wiggles from now on please. Lets look at some other scum suspects.
deskcarress' role is a detective style alignment check triggered when he dies. It comes back with the person's alignment. A frame changes what an alignment looks like, to all detective style checks.
Your next point, is terrible WIFOM, and you should know it. Town wouldn't make a role, which wastes a lynch, but hey, look, there's a coward who does exactly that. That role is even more anti-town than a framer. I'm also a roleblocker. So saying it's unlikely there's a framer, is terrible logic, and makes me think you just don't want me bringing the possibility up.
Also, look at this:
Sandroba the Painter has died
You are the Painter. You're an artist, a man of creativity and come from a river of wit and inspiration. Each night you can paint any other player to another role you see fit. As a painter, your works are only 2-dimensional, they cannot come to life and thus any person you paint as a different role, doesn't mean they actually play that role, they just appear as that role when investigated.
There is already a framer type role in the game, so don't give me that bullshit.
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Kurumi and Bum are self-confirmed anti-town. They both say they're the serial killer, but one of them is likely mafia. Either way, they're both anti-town, and have called themselves that. They're not lying either, as there's no possible reason for a townie to call himself anti-town. Watch what happens here, because chances are, scum are going to try to bus the real serial killer, to remove KP, to waste town's lynch, and to make themselves look pro-town.
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EPT
