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On May 16 2011 15:28 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 16 2011 14:29 OriginalName wrote:
Ok now that 48 hours of wifom is over I have a question.
Is going through pregame really worth the amount of effort over results or should we play this like a normal game?
Im going to answer this by saying: sort of.
The biggest reason behind this are plans proposed by Radfield and Batman both are basically the same thing. Pro-town plans to attempt to control roles. When has this ever worked in PYP? Never, invariably someone always effs it up. So why bother with wifom, the only real analysis done on actual people was done by Caller, so really I think our best move is to play the game like a really blue heavy normal game.
Im liable to think somebody who suggested a no-pick list is scum just because it looks towny on the outside, control is a scum style so why let them get away with it.
Well we do play it like a "normal" game until the first role claim comes out  Once that comes out and depending on the position the player was in we debate whether it's a falseclaim or not, or even if the person is worth lynching. With so many information roles I'm sure things are going to be kicking off very soon.
Day 2 will be interesting then.
I'm going to say, that we shouldn't drop everything that was discussed before the day started, and that in fact, some people are already making use of it.
Incognito expressed a suspicion in Node and then retracted it immediately. Caller later stated that he believes Node is mafia. From what's happened pre-game until role PMs, Incog now suspects GM enough to call for a hit on him. So, whether these suspicions are able to be substantiated or not aside, we still have information, if solely in the fact that these people were brought up as suspicious, and that Incog and Caller were so quick to start pointing out who they believe are scum.
So, I'm going to say we shouldn't ignore what happened before Role Pms went out, because there is definitely information there. I'm also interested in hearing from Node again, because he was mentioned twice, and has since disappeared, only making two, very small posts.
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On May 15 2011 17:40 Barundar wrote:
updated list:
1. Flamewheel
2. Scamp [7][11]
3. Caller [10][4]
4. Barundar [13][1]
5. Radfield
6. GMarshal [17][2]
7. Deconduo
8. Foolishness [1][x]
9. bumatlarge [1][18]
10. Kavdragon [2][1]
11. Chaoser [2][2]
12. Fishball [5][3]
13. KillerSOS [5][11]
14. Eiii [6][7]
15. Infinitestory [6][10]
16. Dreamflower [4][1]
17. Mr.Wiggles [4][2]
18. Original Name[4][6]
19. tnkted [4][12]
20. Chezinu
21. Ace [9][11]
22. Kurumi [9][x]
23. Incognito[9][x]
24. Node [9][1]
25. kitaman27 [9][1]
Don't know why I wasn't updated.
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On May 17 2011 02:54 Ace wrote:
I think right now it's best to just get a few main suspects, and then attempt to split all of our votes between them. Scummiest gets the lynch, vote checking DT gets a few lists.
This sounds like a somewhat better alternative to me.
There's a couple problems I see with the vote-rigger plan right now (some of which can be addressed):
1. The vote rigger basically decides the lynch it looks like, so we must have a good idea for who we're lynching before the vote-rigger should use his power. This can be remedied by actually talking about the lynch and coming to a consensus then having the vote-rigger act at least past the halfway point of the day.
2. The vote rigger's power may only be used once. So, we must determine when it is best to use it. Either right away, or after a day or two, when player numbers have been reduced and we have a better idea of who we think are suspicious. I'm personally in favour of waiting until Day 2 at least.
3. We don't know who's suspicious, and who isn't right now, or at least, we don't have a great idea at the moment. So, trying to put a lot of suspicious players into the same voting bloc isn't going to work nearly as well when all those suspicions are based off day 1 reads, which have a history of not being incredibly accurate.
The M2DT has three vote-checks, but the vote rigger can only act once. So, if we manage to not have too many people being the only person voting for someone, and have decent amounts of people in different voting blocs, the M2DT can still use his power at most twice before the vote rigger needs to act. Then, whenever the vote-rigger wishes to act, and comes forward, the M2DT can lay out his results so far so we can cross-check them, and come up with an ideal vote-check list for the Vote rigger to create. (This is assuming medics so that the M2DT survives the night)
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On May 17 2011 04:36 Foolishness wrote:
Are we really going to try to base a plan around rigging the votes and getting a votecheck? What happened to "let's treat this as a normal game until someone claims"?
I would hope not. I say play this out normally, but pay attention to people who are randomly throwing single votes out and refuse to vote with any group. If that continues past one day, I'd say it's someone trying to avoid vote check.
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On May 17 2011 06:25 Kavdragon wrote:
Upon further review, there is nothing of much significance with Mr.Wiggles.
He doesn't make scum slips, he doesn't contradict himself as far as I see, but all of his contributions and posting are very "safe". He doesn't come out with any opinions that are unique, and seems to sheep behind a lot of people in an attempt to blend in.
The one thing that sticks out about Mr Wiggles is that he doesn't want to stick out. It seems like he's doing his best to get by with minimal contribution, and that fits my pattern for scum.
I don't mind sticking out, and I'm rather used to it, if 4 day 1 accusations of being scum in a row are anything to go by. :p
I play pretty conservatively in the early game, and try to add where I can. If I independently come up with similar conclusions to others, then whatever, I'm still thinking. I've never read someone's post, thought "good idea", and then reworded it into my own. So yes, my opinions are uniquely me, if you don't see it, that's your loss.
Now, here's an opinion for you: Trying to figure out mafia numbers with no information is useless. It is complete conjecture, and the very fact you're trying to use it to find people to analyze seems weird to me. There's as much validity in saying, mafia chose 1,2,3,4,5,6, as there is in saying mafia chose 9,9,9,9,9,9. It's useless at the moment, and only gains some kind of validity after at least two mafia are killed, because you'll get an inkling of an idea what their number strategy is. That said, it's still and inkling, and not very much to go on, so using that as a basis for analysis is weak. I'd rather see something behavioural or strategical before anything based off numbers already.
On May 17 2011 05:49 Ace wrote:Show nested quote +On May 17 2011 04:41 Mr. Wiggles wrote:On May 17 2011 04:36 Foolishness wrote:
Are we really going to try to base a plan around rigging the votes and getting a votecheck? What happened to "let's treat this as a normal game until someone claims"? I would hope not. I say play this out normally, but pay attention to people who are randomly throwing single votes out and refuse to vote with any group. If that continues past one day, I'd say it's someone trying to avoid vote check. Actually Scum would want to vote with a group. If they don't they risk the possible chance of a group of confirmed townies by the DT. It's better for them and for the Town that people vote together. People voting alone are probably better off left to be checked by another investigation role.
That's exactly what I'm saying though. :p
There will be mafia voting in a group, as there are enough mafia to vote in each bloc, but anyone voting alone for a player is very unlikely to get checked by the vote-checker. So, that makes them a better target for DTs. I wasn't trying to propose we vote-check them, that would be a waste of the power, but consistent solo voting means you will never be vote checked.
Also, a group of vote-checked townies won't be 100% green. There's still the possibility for framers and GFs to be in the group.
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Sorry I've been gone for a while, I'm trying to get rid of a trojan from my Mum's comp and have been looking up and trying to apply fixes.
On the lynch: We shouldn't be afraid to lynch into the top of the list if we think there's a good chance of the target being scum. If we kill scum, all that does is give mafia back their role if they have the copycat. I'd much rather just try to lynch whoever's scummiest than try to lynch someone because they look kind've scummy and if they're green don't have a good role. If mafia have copycat, and you lynch wrong, they get a town role. If you lynch right, they get their own role back, which is better than them getting an additional role.
On Targets: Of course we need to lower the number. What that doesn't mean, for me anyways, is that if something new is brought forward, we should just ignore it. By this, I don't mean more of the FOS spam, but actually well thought out and put together cases. So, we should look through all the potential lynch targets, and find maybe three that look the scummiest, or we can generate the best discussion on. Then, new cases can be evaluated as they are brought forward, and random vote spam can be discouraged, as it isn't even *good* pressure anyways.
Of the top three picks right now, I'm going to be voting for Deconduo at the moment. He's been useless, spammy, and lurky. Incognito has been throwing around a lot of FOS, but I don't think that makes him scum, and Chaoser has been fairly inactive, with very generic posts, but gave an IRL reason for it, so I'd rather see what he has to say on Day 2 when he talks more and it's easier to get a read.
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Really? I think I'm saying pretty much the opposite.
Barundar doesn't want to lynch into the top of the list, I don't give a damn where you are in the list, if you look red. The copy cat is irrelevant if we actually can find someone red. I'm not going to avoid considering people just because of where their queue position is. Also, lynching vanilla just makes it so the copycat gets the first person shot at night. So threaten medic-protection on the top of the list, and mafia will have to shoot into lower parts where the roles aren't as useful to them.
I want to get rid of all the throwaway targets so we can look at the ones with any kind of reasoning behind them. I don't care if people bring in new targets so long as there's reasoning behind it. Just voting for random people at this point is stupid however, as it's unrealistic you'll get someone lynched with just a spam vote and no analysis. I'm not opposed to new people being brought up, if there's something substantial behind it. Barundar just wants to focus on who we have and not add anyone for any reason.
So how's that the same, again?
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On May 18 2011 07:28 kitaman27 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 18 2011 06:49 Foolishness wrote:
Seems to me deconduo is an obvious green (or village idiot). Could you elaborate what makes you think he is obvious green? VI perhaps, but what makes you think he green? He wants us to lynch him because "he thinks he is the mole". He feels as a vanilla, it would be most useful if he were lynched. He has provided no attempt to help town. Are you guys inferring deconduo is the type of person that would rage quit the game because he didn't get the role he wanted?
Well, that's what I'm wondering about at the moment. From near the beginning of the game:
On May 14 2011 21:56 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 14 2011 20:57 Radfield wrote:On May 14 2011 20:24 deconduo wrote:
Oh, and to those coming up with picking tactics, I'm noting going to be following them. I'm going to pick whatever I think is most fun, not whats most optimum. This argument has been made in past PYP games as well. I can certainly understand where it comes from, no one likes to be dictated to, and the point of mafia is to have fun. However, it's important to note that what you're basically saying is, "No matter if role-denial is a great thing for town, I'm going to do whats best for me". This is of course an anti-town and pro-mafia viewpoint, so I hope you understand that I'll probably view it as such, and may hold it against you as the game goes on. I'm not trying to be a jerk here or anything, just trying to point out how I see that particular viewpoint. However, if you disagree and think that role-denial is NOT a great thing for the town, that's a different matter, and i encourage you to elaborate(which i'm sure folks some will). My viewpoint is that the game starts after the roles have been picked. Any optimum picking strategy or awesome pick setup (like LSB's) just goes against my style of playing. I will be playing pro-town once the picks have gone through.Regardless, to avoid confrontation I've chosen numbers in a way that I will hopefully be in the middle/end of the draft rather than the start.
This sugests that he was never initially aiming at any "power roles", unless what he wrote here is a lie. He also makes a promise to act "pro-town", once the roles go out, but never delivers, opting for spam, one-liners, and confusing messages instead.
So, he makes a post inferring that power-roles aren't important to him, so he'll aim for the middle/end of the queue, then he gets an early queue position, and supposedly picks a role, doesn't get it, and now rage-quits? That just seems off to me, when he was saying he wants to be in a position where he wouldn't get a very strong role (or any role at all, potentially). So, he's just thrown us into a bunch of WIFOM, that isn't helping anything. I might be forced to consider that he's the VI, but at this point, that's detrimental to town as well, because it gives him an excuse to post whatever he wants and to be ignored, and to lurk, under the guise of being VI. If we ever want to lynch him, it becomes a big pit of WIFOM, as he and others form a defense over his actions Day 1.
Maybe the best thing would be to have someone just shoot him tonight?
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Hey incog, you forgot me.
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Incognito referendum:
Looks pretty green to me so far, makes good points, constructive posts. The random votes and asking for nukes look weird though, lacks reasoning for early suspicions.
On reflection, I think there's a possibility Deconduo might be Hero. I'll switch my vote for now.
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Can the Mafia 2 Detective use his vote-check ability on previous lynches, or only the latest lynch? For example, on Night 2, can he check how many mafia voted to lynch a player on Day 1, or is it limited to the Day 2 lynch?
Thanks
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Ok then, here's my thoughts for tonight:
Role-Checks:
These are the people who, at the moment, it would be a good idea to check their role. If scum got any of the first queue spots, they're likely to have taken a strong scum role from the no-pick list.
Flamewheel
Scamp
Caller
Barundar
Radfield
GMarshal
Alignment Checks:
These are the people I find somewhat suspicious, or who it would be nice to have an alignment check on.
Barundar
Node
Tnkted
Incognito
Radfield
Ace
Vig-Hit:
Deconduo
I'm thinking he's VI, maybe mafia Hero, either way he isn't helping town, and I don't want to waste a lynch on him later. Debatable.
Medic list:
These are the people I think ought to be protected. Either they're acting pro-town already, or have good potential to help town day 2.
Caller
bumatlarge
Radfield
Incognito
Flamewheel
Foolishness
This is just a summary of my thoughts at the moment. Disagree? Want to add? Just cause it's night doesn't mean we need to shut up.
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On May 18 2011 19:19 Radfield wrote:
So much for 100% eh Incog....
On the bright side, this lynch hopefully gives us oodles of information down the line, once incog and Barundars alignment flips. On another bright note, Incognito won't get targeted by mafia tonight, so in the event he is town he'll probably survive the night. Unless of course a townie shoots him, but if that's the case so be it.
Mr. Wiggles, I very much disagree with your rolecheck list. There is a list of roles in this game that no townie should be caught dead with, so we want to use our rolechecks to try and ascertain alignment. Checking the people at the top of the list gives us very little information regarding their alignment. The top 6/7 all have an excellent excuse(whether legit or not) for taking an anti-town role. No one else on the list has that excuse. Anyone with a role check should be looking at whomever they think is scummy lower down on the list. If they have a scummy role(a role on the no-pick list) then they're probably mafia.
Why is this such a contradiction? I thought the whole point of the "no pick list" is that townies wouldn't pick them, for any reason, to avoid this exact WIFOM. Now you're trying to say that people at the top have an excuse to take anti-town roles? What excuse? That they wanted to deny mafia the role? Then what about people lower down the list? Maybe they just wanted to check if the role had already been taken? That was the point of not picking the roles is to avoid this WIFOM, and to be able to straight up kill people found with those roles. It's funny, because Barundar wanted to avoid lynching into the top of the list earlier as well.
So, I'm going to say it again, people near the top of the list are worth a role-check, and possibly an alignment check. Use your discretion. We can deal with bullshit excuses as they come up, because anyone can come up with a fake reason for taking a role, and even if we decide not to kill them, we can still keep tabs on them.
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I still think a bomb that must be passed every 12 hours and explodes when held by mafia but not by town is a good thing. :p
That'll find mafia for sure, and kill them too.
Also, "Vote-checking Kit" is still ambiguous. For all we know, it will check vote-lists and tell mafia how many people with roles voted to help them snipe.
I say we put in a policy where the person who received the inventor item must claim that they did so, so we can keep them accountable. That way, if they feed us false information, we can do something about it.
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On May 19 2011 09:03 Scamp wrote:
What's that Mr. Wiggles? Was my 'mafia-seeking missile' not a good enough idea?
How's that work?
Also, this would clear townies too, because if they hold it and it doesn't blow up, then they're not mafia (or at least narrowed down to GF or cover).
It's balanced because a framed townie will explode, if a player holds it too long they'll explode, and if a player dies holding it, the bomb is lost.
Also, EXPLOSIONS.
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Mafia-sniffing bomb, mafia-sensitive proximity bomb or something like that, I'd assume.
For vote-checker, just name it mafia-vote checker, then it becomes unambiguous. Just "vote checker" only tells us that it checks votes, not what.
I'd write it so the bomb remains in play until it explodes, or is lost. It can be passed freely with no limit on passes. It's one-use, because its use is to explode mafia.
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On May 19 2011 09:31 Scamp wrote:Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 09:16 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
For vote-checker, just name it mafia-vote checker, then it becomes unambiguous. Just "vote checker" only tells us that it checks votes, not what. No, that's not unambiguous. A mafia-vote checker could be a vote-rigging device that's used by the mafia.
How can it be a vote-rigger?
Also, I think arguing about names is useless at this point. There's nothing in the Inventor role-description that says the invention name must be in line with its function. There's also nothing stopping the inventor from using acronyms to name his inventions so they'll show up as random names.
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On May 19 2011 09:50 Pandain wrote: Show nested quote +On May 19 2011 09:45 Radfield wrote:
Well we need to talk about something.
Here's some interesting tidbits:
Everytime I read the name Chaoser, I pronounce it Chowsah in my head...
Instead of seeing Infinitestory, I read Infestory. Like a pantry, but infested. + Show Spoiler +I friended someone named Mr. Wiggles on B.net but am too afraid to ask if it's the real him.
My B.net name is Jester.481 or the code's something like that.
On May 19 2011 09:52 chaoser wrote:
It's pronounced chow-ser. Like Bowser but not. Or you can be like fucking RoL and call me chaos-er.
Putting that aside, why don't we make an x-ray machine or something that can be used in conjunction with a vote-check/alignment check that gets rid of covers and such.
I pronounce it like RoL 
I'm just going to trust in the inventor at this point, as it doesn't look like the names need to follow the use, and because almost every name is ambiguous. For example, X-ray machine could be an item that kills with radiation. Coming up with anti-town uses for names is endless.
I'm still going to say, depending on item use, that claiming you got the item and what it does is going to generally be the best thing for us.
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Or they have copycat and have inventor now
Night 1 is over at least, and we can start discussing more again. Foolishness, you gonna continue talking? :p Green or not, I enjoy when people talk more, gives us more to work with.
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Ohhhh, a clue. :p
Are you going to share it?
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EPT
