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On February 24 2011 12:33 annul wrote:
here is the funny thing. LSB is probably upset at me for what i did to him the last mafia game, so he is going to try to do the same thing to me that i did to him. i see it coming.
does it make sense? ofc not. is there literally anyone out there who actually likes this cell idea? i expect the rest of the reds to come out!
The reason why LSB is going after you because of what you did that game can be only explained if LSB is mafia who know you are town. I don't see evidence that suggests so.
Town would never go after who they think are non-scum.
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On February 24 2011 13:03 annul wrote:
##unvote
##vote gmarshal
better than chaoser atm
I want to ask you for the reasons why you switched your vote. And why do you think Gmarshall is a better lynch than Chaoser.
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I read about the last three pages and found not very strong reasons that Annul is scum.
I don't see much scum tell in his vote switch from Chaoser to Gmarshall. Annul did justify his vote on Gmarshall on why his plan is bad.
Another thing people keep mentioning is the aggressiveness how Annul is playing which looks like how he played in XXXV where he was scum. The difference is there he was accusing LSB being scum with flawed reasons. This game, he actually justified his vote and did provide reasons unlike the old "LSB postings are spams and have few contributions."
I played with Annul many times before and it seems that he is always aggressive on day1.
XXXV: Accused LSB mafia because he spams and don't contribute much.
Merc Mafia: Claimed medic to me (day vig) and planned to have 100% town victory.
Survivor Mafia (ongoing): After the quick 3 people alliance, he rallied and formed the counter 5 people alliance to take control of the game.
This game compared to other games I played with Annul, I consider that he is playing less aggressive.
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LSB: Storytime! Why Annul was an easy read in XXXV
1) He mad up stuff and pushed stuff that didn't exist
Check, this game he's pushing GMarshal, saying GMarshal is clear mafia, although there is literally nothing in his accusation
2) Besides responses, he posted nothing else
Look at Annul's posts. How many of his posts deal with things other than Gmarshal or defending himself? I can't find any.
Looked over Annul's posts:
1) He posts are generally short and don't have much content to them. I do find Annul saying Gmarshall is mafia based only on his circle thing is not convincing.
2) This is the part I disagree. Annul did what most people will do in this situation. He attacked someone whom he believe is mafia and defended himself when he was in huge danger of being lynched. If he didn't go after someone, ok... since not everyone got a mafia read on day1. And his defense on himself is normal behavior.
To determine if he is really mafia, you have to look at the time when he felt pressured and tried to redirect the lynch to another person (Gmarshall in this case) and if there are any support from others. People did pointed out Gmarshall's circle thing is a horrible idea but no one voted for him after Annul's switch.
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ANNUL, can you response to some critical posts toward you and don't use one liner responses because one liner responses are hard to read alignment.
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Annul, if you don't do anything people will not switch vote. This play style of yours is getting you lynched. While I still believe your aggressiveness is lower compared to other games, what makes you an easy lynch is that you don't reply with logical responses. I hope that is not what mafia is going for.
Also, town players roleclaim regardless when they are getting lynched. That "you'll know soon after" is not general town play.
Can you at least tell us what you observed?
Well, time to vote...
Icemac, you took a huge dive. Care to explained your voting or what you see on the thread?
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On February 25 2011 10:29 annul wrote:
like always, if i am in danger of lynch, i will have a post ready to go at XX:59 before the vote is locked, and if i am still in the lead, i post it with all of my information.
mafia is not a short-term game. it's a long-term game. just because i MIGHT be dead today doesn't mean i need to give up my entire hand. as it is i still think i have a chance, since people are jumping off my wagon. the problem is they are creating other, split wagons in the process... but with 90 minutes to go, i figure i should keep this up since it is working.
if you want to ask me specific questions i can answer them for you, but basic "what do you think" is fruitless, since ive been answering that and somehow that got me an 11 vote wagon
OK. Comment on theses (using more than one line please)
-People are saying you are very aggressive.
-Also LSB's points of you:
Storytime! Why Annul was an easy read in XXXV
1) He mad up stuff and pushed stuff that didn't exist
Check, this game he's pushing GMarshal, saying GMarshal is clear mafia, although there is literally nothing in his accusation
2) Besides responses, he posted nothing else
Look at Annul's posts. How many of his posts deal with things other than Gmarshal or defending himself? I can't find any.
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I really thought annul was not mafia... his play was standard annul and his lynch was too easy without much reasons.
Good thing is mafia dropped by 1.
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Back. Catchup time...
So mafia are targeting experienced players like they always do.
People are talking about annul's lynch and there is a bus on annul. First of all, I don't think mafia would sacrifice one of their member to make others more safe. So those who voted annul early or greatly accused him aren't likely to be mafia. Those who jump onto the bandwagon or voted late without giving good reasons should be looked at.
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Barunder wants to lynch LSB and even is willing to go with sacrificing himself first to prove he is not scum.
LSB says Barunder's analysis on him read too much on few posts and contain many WIFOMs.
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First if Barunder is scum and wants town LSB dead, he won't be satisfy being lynched first. His posts after he 3 essay sized posts did not follow up with the aggressive natural of the essay sized posts. If he is mafia, he needs to get LSB lynched before he is lynched. Because he is willing to be lynched first, that just defeats the original point of his essay sized posts if he is mafia.
LSB did attacked back Barunder. This is pretty standard play and is very like LSB's play. Look back at XXXV when annul accused LSB as scum with shit posts that didn't make much sense, LSB fought back like how he is now. He justified it as putting some pressure back at his accuser and see if he will slip. Barunder did not and again is willing to be lynched first.
To summarize, I don't think Barunder is scum. LSB is playing his standard in terms of his responds (not saying his alignment is town). One additional thing to point out is that they really believe the other is scum.
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Ok. First, I'll admit that my post behavior in this game is weird since I am usually a player who tend to post more than other players. My excuse is being busy.
You also pointed out that I posted a lot more in XXXV. That game was after Pokemafia. Although I didn't played that game, lurker killed that game far more than other games. So I debated ways to out lurkers. At the end of the day, I also did jump on to the LSB/Annul case there and kind of justify my vote. I had a lot more to debate there.
Lastly the pm thing. Here are the whole pm chain I had with Foolishness:
Original Message From Foolishness: Oh whoops. probably should've researched that before I asked you =P But yeah go ahead, every little bit helps! Show nested quote +Original Message From LunarDestiny: I spent more of my posts talking about how I hate bandwagon... However, I can help call Annul out by posting how he is playing like he was in XXXV where his postings are similar since they are not logical. Original Message From Foolishness:
Time to do Foolishness a favor:
Can you vote for annul? I want to pressure him because I'm thinking he's mafia. However I have always been a firm believer in not lynching active players day 1 (no matter what), and I don't want to stray from my norm and have someone realize it >.>
The idea is that we pressure him, then compare everything he says to mafia XXXV and see if he's mafia.
I did exactly what you asked. I called Annul out other than tell him to give reason why he changed his vote to see if his reason is logical or not.
You said that I didn't want to take a side. I refuse to finalize my vote for a player if I don't reason to believe he is scum (however, I do support in putting pressure vote to get people talking). I explained why i don't think annul is scum. Tell me what other side there are except voting annul. At that time, the other two highest vote players (icemac and icanflylow) have 4 votes and their votes are pretty much lurker/inactive votes. I voted icemac to get him talking.
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On February 28 2011 09:56 Foolishness wrote:
You directly said in a post (I quoted it on previous page):
"Another thing people keep mentioning is the aggressiveness how Annul is playing which looks like how he played in XXXV where he was scum. The difference is there he was accusing LSB being scum with flawed reasons. This game, he actually justified his vote and did provide reasons unlike the old "LSB postings are spams and have few contributions.""
You directly told me (in PM):
"I can help call Annul out by posting how he is playing like he was in XXXV"
Did I misunderstand something?
Wow, that is 100% what I actually said...
Yes, I only called annul out. What I tried to do is to ask annul for reason why he switch his lynch and see if his reason is logical.
Give me a break dammit, I reply your post after 6 minutes you sent me the pm. I didn't put much thought in my reply. Fault me for not doing what I promised.
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On February 28 2011 10:09 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 10:07 LunarDestiny wrote:On February 28 2011 09:56 Foolishness wrote:
You directly said in a post (I quoted it on previous page):
"Another thing people keep mentioning is the aggressiveness how Annul is playing which looks like how he played in XXXV where he was scum. The difference is there he was accusing LSB being scum with flawed reasons. This game, he actually justified his vote and did provide reasons unlike the old "LSB postings are spams and have few contributions.""
You directly told me (in PM):
"I can help call Annul out by posting how he is playing like he was in XXXV"
Did I misunderstand something? Wow, that is 100% what I actually said... Yes, I only called annul out. What I tried to do is to ask annul for reason why he switch his lynch and see if his reason is logical. Give me a break dammit, I reply your post after 6 minutes you sent me the pm. I didn't put much thought in my reply. Fault me for not doing what I promised. Your post is a defense of annul, you didn't call him out. People had already mentioned he was playing like he did in XXXV, you defended annul by saying "there's a difference between annul this game and last game. Last game he was using flawed reasons, this game he justified his vote".
Well, that is my style of calling people out. Asking them to contribution more. When i called him out, I didn't do much research on his play, I just asked him to explain his reason.
The post where I defended annul is much later (1 day later?). I looked over annul's posts and was convinced that his aggressiveness is much lower is not good reasons why he is scum.
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On February 28 2011 10:07 Foolishness wrote:Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 10:25 LunarDestiny wrote:
Annul, if you don't do anything people will not switch vote. This play style of yours is getting you lynched. While I still believe your aggressiveness is lower compared to other games, what makes you an easy lynch is that you don't reply with logical responses. I hope that is not what mafia is going for.
Also, town players roleclaim regardless when they are getting lynched. That "you'll know soon after" is not general town play.
Can you at least tell us what you observed?
Well, time to vote...
Icemac, you took a huge dive. Care to explained your voting or what you see on the thread? You seem so reluctant to vote, almost like you don't really want to. If you didn't think annul was mafia, you should have defended harder, or provide reason why we should lynch icemac over him. It's understandable that you would vote for icemac (better him than annul if you think annul is innocent). It's not understandable for you to just vote without giving clear reason. Unless you changed your mind half way through day (it's okay if you did) you thought annul was innocent the whole time correct? If so why not find a better target to lynch? Right now I think all of LSB/Barundar/icemac are innocent, that's why I made a case against you, however hopeless it may be. It seemed like you didn't want to kill any of annul/icemac (which is okay). But tossing your vote on icemac like you did tells me that you really didn't care if icemac died, and that you really didn't care to try to find someone else to vote for. That's not the kind of player I want in my town.
I post what I see. I saw annul's aggressiveness should not be the reason why he should be lynched. I don't see anymore reason why annul is not scum other than his annul is almost too easy.
Again, I believe that there was not enough why annul should be lynched and I did pointed out every counter reason why I thought annul was not scum.
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On February 28 2011 10:45 Foolishness wrote:LunarDestiny has yet to contribute much of anything: Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 07:18 LunarDestiny wrote:
Barunder wants to lynch LSB and even is willing to go with sacrificing himself first to prove he is not scum.
LSB says Barunder's analysis on him read too much on few posts and contain many WIFOMs.
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First if Barunder is scum and wants town LSB dead, he won't be satisfy being lynched first. His posts after he 3 essay sized posts did not follow up with the aggressive natural of the essay sized posts. If he is mafia, he needs to get LSB lynched before he is lynched. Because he is willing to be lynched first, that just defeats the original point of his essay sized posts if he is mafia.
LSB did attacked back Barunder. This is pretty standard play and is very like LSB's play. Look back at XXXV when annul accused LSB as scum with shit posts that didn't make much sense, LSB fought back like how he is now. He justified it as putting some pressure back at his accuser and see if he will slip. Barunder did not and again is willing to be lynched first.
To summarize, I don't think Barunder is scum. LSB is playing his standard in terms of his responds (not saying his alignment is town). One additional thing to point out is that they really believe the other is scum. You seem to say Barundar and LSB are not scum (which is the same conclusion I drew) yet you provided zero help to the town about it. All you did in this post was summarize what had happened previously, without giving new insight to the town. It seems to me that you are clearly around a lot (you don't seem to be inactive) yet I don't see you doing much for the town here. Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 10:37 seRapH wrote:
##Vote: icemac
In case it takes a while to read, was kinda gone the whole weekend kinda Very convenient for you to come in and vote for icemac (although you just got back so I'll cut you a bit of slack).
I said in that post that I was very convinced that Barunder is not scum. The reason is if he is mafia, he would not be contented with being lynched first. No one pointed this out.
I also give out one reason why LSB is playing like he usually is (after being pointed at, fought back with pressuring). I also don't remember this being pointed out.
I gave that post after catching up on the last five pages and these reasons are based on those pages.
Yes, I was inactive after annul flipping scum and about 1/4 of day 2. However I did do some catching up.
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On February 28 2011 10:56 Ser Aspi wrote:Show nested quote +On February 28 2011 10:37 seRapH wrote:
##Vote: icemac
In case it takes a while to read, was kinda gone the whole weekend kinda Yeah what a coincidence. Heres what happened I bet. Seraph pops in mafia irc.
HURRY DUDE LD IS GONNA GET LYNCHED VOTE FOR ICEMAC.
OK GUYS I GOT DA PERFECT EXCUSE. A PLACEHOLDER VOTEI'd rather kill Jbright but apparently lynch closes soon and LD is a decent target so. vote##: LundarDestiny
If I was mafia, I would not do stupid shit like asking Seraph to save my ass after seeing how Foolishness labeled both Seraph and I as mafia. Think the mafia want to out 2 of their own?
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Dude, you got to fight for yourself...
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Man, icemac. I don't want to get out of the lynch if it is because you voted for yourself. I should be lynched if I can't persuade town that I am not mafia.
I will place my vote to equalize your for now. If you switch vote later, I will switch mine too...
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On February 28 2011 12:09 Foolishness wrote:
Thanks for jumping ship last minute guys. You really helped the town on that one.
Why didn't you followed up if you really believed I am scum? I responded to all(?) of your post.
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On March 01 2011 00:31 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On March 01 2011 00:19 Jackal58 wrote:On February 28 2011 20:13 deconduo wrote:First of all we have Jackal. He claimed posting PMs is scummy. When asked to explain the logic behind it he dodged the question twice then posted this gem: On February 25 2011 01:06 Jackal58 wrote:
Decon- We'll simply have to agree to disagree on the posting of PM's. I think it's a bad idea. You don't. I'm over it. It's not an issue worth arguing. I didn't dodge it. You just didn't like my answer. Ya the one you skipped. And now you're in a pissing contest over the content of a posted PM. Have fun. We got scum here folks. Here was the post in question: Show nested quote +On February 25 2011 00:46 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 22:41 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 22:35 deconduo wrote:Jackal, you haven't clarified this: + Show Spoiler +On February 24 2011 05:31 deconduo wrote:Show nested quote +On February 24 2011 02:18 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:13 GMarshal wrote:On February 24 2011 02:11 Jackal58 wrote:On February 24 2011 02:00 deconduo wrote:On February 24 2011 01:56 Jackal58 wrote:
I have received a PM from GMarshall as well. Whoopee. I will probably even answer him.
But posting quotes and copies of PMs is a very scummy thing to do. You can make them say anything. Please stop. What? If someone manipulates or changes PMs to say what they want that's a scum caught straight away. Also as easy for 2 scum or more to edit and post PMs to kill town While I appreciate the sentiment, I don't think that's an issue right now, even if that did happen, when the townie flipped green we would immediately go after the people who posted the PM I understand that. But if we get in that habit scum will use it to kill us at endgame. Better not doing it at all. So your reasoning is: Two mafia might edit a PM and post it to gang up on a townie to get them lynched in a lylo situation so therefore don't do it at all ever. Anyone who does post a PM is scummy. This is so flawed I don't even know where to begin.... What is your logic behind telling people not to quote or post PMs? It honestly does not make any sense to me. It feels an irrational conclusion to jump to. I did explain it. Go ahead and post PM content. Go ahead and get comfy with it. Go ahead and watch scum use that to destroy town at end game. I think it's a horrid idea. I honestly 100% don't understand your logic. From what I can gather you are saying the following. In a lylo situation, 2 mafia 3 town say. Person A + B post PMs showing C is mafia. C denies it and says they are faked. Now according to you, i)If no PMs were posted previously, people A+B would be lynched. ii)If a couple of PMs had been posted previously, and people were 'comfy' with it, C would be lynched. How you managed to get here I have no clue whatsoever. There must be some huge step in logic that I'm missing as to what universe you think this would happen in. -Your 'explanation' was mafia would use it to destroy town at end game. I gave you an example of your supposed endgame situation. You completely ignored it and simple put it down to opinion.
I'll give my take on this...
Posting pm for no reason is a bad thing because it will reveal information to mafia.
However, there are many circumstances where posting pm is good.
For example, look how Foolishness post his pm with me and find that I didn't do what exactly I promised. That generated one point saying why i am mafia.
If he is mafia and I town, and edited the pm, I can denied it and there goes 1 mafia of the two.
If I am mafia and he town. If I denied the pm and same 1 mafia out of the two.
If both are town, I shouldn't lie.
If both are mafia, mafia is stupid.
Icemac also gave out all pm before he died. It give additional information for town to work with and town can use those to accuse or defend people. Taking those pms into the grave is not as useful.
Your case describes that mafia edit the pm and use them for the late game. This situation only works if the other person mafia is editing the pm from is afk and don't claim the pm is edited. This is huge risk from mafia and certainly mafia would take unless they are desperate.
Your other case say that 2 or more mafia talk in circles and post pm to make themselves look good. This case stands because it would be hard to prove these pms wrong. Also even revealing one of them mafia doesn't prove that the other is mafia believe it could very well be legit pm between mafia and town.
But if we just compare the pro and con of post pm. i find it is beneficial for them to be posted given there is a reason.
So I have to agree with deucenuo on this subject and asking you to describe why it is bad to post pm. Also give your reasons why posting pm is bad. (Does the con outweigh the pro?)
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EPT
