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On November 19 2012 09:39 gonzaw wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:34 Keirathi wrote:
Oh java. One of the languages I actually know!
I might be interested in helping. I was already thinking about changing my c++ generator to be a "mafia helper" that would do vote counts, send out role PMs, etc etc, although its written in C# (which is basically Java but better!). After having to program network systems in C.....I don't ever want to even speak about it again >_>
C =/= C#. C# is the powerful features of C combined with the powerful features of Java, but using Java syntax. Basically, if you know Java you already know C#!
E: but yea, I'm pretty sure the only way you're going to get votes/PMs/etc is by actually parsing the data from the forums.
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Here, I'll put an image of what I was planning to do:
![[image loading]](http://yuml.me/54ff2061)
(Replace phpBB with TL in this case)
I want a completely independent System ("Mafia System" in this diagram) that only has the necessary logic behind it.
This system would use functions from a forum ("Forum API" in this diagram) to interact with players/hosts (one function would be "sendPM(Keirathi,rolePM)" for instance).
However, as it seems to be here, TL can't be changed at all basically. So the only services it can give the system is basically in the shape of bots to send PMs, create threads, etc.
Those features, which are the basic ones, would be part of the "FBasic" API/service. It'd just be "sendPM", "checkvotes", "createThread"; "createPost" and the like. This component will be the one that does stuff depending on the forum.
The mafia system that uses these basic features would be "SBasic", a system that has only the basic stuff to run a mafia game.
However (again since in OMGUS we plan to do more stuff....cooler stuff), it should be possible to add more features, which would correspond to "FExtended" (in which a forum would add new features to give to the system) and "SExtended".
We were thinking for instance that in the future we could be able to create Setups, and then show them to the users who could comment on them and rate them. The forum that does this would give the system more services like "newRatingArrived()" and the like, which would correspond to a new component which would implement FExtended.
We also wanted for instance to include the whole Hosting Queue thing in it. This could be an extended feature that would need (maybe) new features from the forum as well as the system itself, so it'd be another FExtended and another SExtended.
Since we wanted this to be "easy to access" and stuff, the "Controller Extension" could be accessed by the System Admin to create any of those as he wants (for instance in the installation of the system), and maybe even change between those after installing it.
Because of all the differences between forums and even in how they play mafia (for instance in here there's a "team that checks setups" like GMarshall/Foolishness/etc, while in OMGUS there isn't) there should be a way to make the system portable for any of these settings/forums/etc.
....oh yeah wall of text here >_>
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On November 19 2012 09:43 Keirathi wrote:Show nested quote +On November 19 2012 09:39 gonzaw wrote:On November 19 2012 09:34 Keirathi wrote:
Oh java. One of the languages I actually know!
I might be interested in helping. I was already thinking about changing my c++ generator to be a "mafia helper" that would do vote counts, send out role PMs, etc etc, although its written in C# (which is basically Java but better!). After having to program network systems in C.....I don't ever want to even speak about it again >_> C =/= C#. C# is the powerful features of C combined with the powerful features of Java, but using Java syntax. Basically, if you know Java you already know C#! E: but yea, I'm pretty sure the only way you're going to get votes/PMs/etc is by actually parsing the data from the forums.
That won't be too hard I think.
I already made a BBCode in OMGUS that creates an automatic vote-count there (haven't tested it yet though), we could make something similar for TL.
In fact we could even use that ZBot Zona did if s/he allows us to!
I take it there's no restriction in having a bot access a "3rd party software" right? Like having ZBot give the system all the info (about votes for instance).
If there is then fuck lol this forum sure doesn't want to make it easier for me.
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If you guys want that feature in TL, it'd be great if you could come over to OMGUS to discuss what exactly should be done in TL regarding the system (i.e what the system would do in here).
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I need huge help guys!:
So I'm stuck at a design decision (about the system) that I think is very important for the game.
It's about roles/setups and how we should handle them.
For instance, here's a question for you guys, let's see if you can answer it to me:
How would you make Greymist's new game, Chrono Trigger Mafia compatible with this system I'm making?
If you can't answer that question....then don't worry you are not an idiot, I can't answer it either.
That's why I need your help in discussing how to solve that problem, if not then we won't be able to have these awesome games in our system 
Here's the forum:
http://www.omgus.net/forum/viewforum.php?f=51
Here's the specific thread discussing this same issue (be sure to read all of it to understand better why I'm not sure what to do):
http://www.omgus.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=411&p=14442#p14442
(P.S: If you are interested in this I recommend reading the other threads in that forum first)
I really want these exotic "themed" games to be part of the system, because:
- They are the ones that would heavily need of a system in the first place! I mean, hosts of those games need like 100 spreadsheets and 99% of their free time to regulate/host those games, why not give them a break and let the system handle it?
- These "weird" themed games happen like every 4 game! They are everywhere! (for instance, Aperture Mafia 2 was a "weird" themed game and it happened 1-2 weeks ago). Not making those games compatible with the system makes the system worthless if half the games in the forum are of that kind
I know it's too much to ask, and I know surely some of you don't really know how to solve it or even care about it; but for those of you that do.....halp ;_;
If you don't know about software engineering or programming and the like just ignore this post (or maybe post something like "Come on gonzaw! You can do it!"  ). But if you have some knowledge then I'd really like your help (even more than before!), at least with this specific issue (you aren't obliged to create the whole system yourself lol, just provide some insight into this matter and some opinions).
Thanks for your help (also please don't ban me for "advertising" another site or something ;_; I guess you do need to join in OMGUS to discuss that.....but well it's the only place where we can create forums to chat about it in the first place. If there's a problem with that if you guys have a better way of communicating then I'd gladly listen.)
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Come on Gonzaw, you can do it! I believe in you!
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gonzaw: you have skype, or irc or something where we can talk in real time?
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Thanks Keirathi for joining!
After this is done you'll receive a blowjob from your user of choice!
See people? Join us and get free blowjobs. There's no downside.
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On November 20 2012 01:23 Coagulation wrote:
I heard marv swallows
that's me
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Random side-note, regarding vote counts, but instead of scraping the forum, couldn't you have all users send their votes to the bot via PM, and then have the bot automatically update a vote count and then a vote list that would contain the times that everyone voted and who they voted for? That way, you could avoid a voting thread and just have what would functionally be the same thing in every vote update post and the fourth or so post in the thread (in spoilers of course). It would also be easy to change it for hidden vote counts, or to accept votes for other choices besides a lynch vote.
I also don't think we could automate the system here to not have to be a user even if we somehow got permission to modify the site, because even TL.net bot is a real user who posts all the bans and stuff. The forum probably isn't set up for that.
Lastly, do you think we should make a new topic for this on TL as well? This is taking up a lot of room in the active games thread, haha.
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United Kingdom36160 Posts
On November 20 2012 01:23 Coagulation wrote:
I heard marv swallows
I almost missed this in the walls of text, you cheeky bugger.
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On November 20 2012 01:40 Mr. Wiggles wrote:
Random side-note, regarding vote counts, but instead of scraping the forum, couldn't you have all users send their votes to the bot via PM, and then have the bot automatically update a vote count and then a vote list that would contain the times that everyone voted and who they voted for? That way, you could avoid a voting thread and just have what would functionally be the same thing in every vote update post and the fourth or so post in the thread (in spoilers of course). It would also be easy to change it for hidden vote counts, or to accept votes for other choices besides a lynch vote.
I also don't think we could automate the system here to not have to be a user even if we somehow got permission to modify the site, because even TL.net bot is a real user who posts all the bans and stuff. The forum probably isn't set up for that.
Lastly, do you think we should make a new topic for this on TL as well? This is taking up a lot of room in the active games thread, haha.
Well, a voting thread is the standard thing to do, and it's the easiest way for players/observers to check the "flow" of votes.
If someone says in the thread "Okay, I'll vote X!", then nobody will instantly know if he voted X if there's no voting thread, they'd need to be F5ing the "voting count" every time.
Also in this forum there seems to be quite a lot of restrictions, so it's not like you can get an "automatic personal vote count" or something like that (something we planned on doing in OMGUS, kind of like a pop-up ad that tells you the currrent votecount)
But yeah thanks for reminding me, some setups may want a hidden voting system
I kind of forgot about that
Although if you define "Day Actions" (which can be PMed to the bot, like "##Day Vig: marv"), then you could define a hidden vote as a Day Action as well.
The "Steal vote" ability would be a Day Action for instance.
Lastly, do you think we should make a new topic for this on TL as well? This is taking up a lot of room in the active games thread, haha
Yeah if you guys want to. I was planning on doing most of the talking in OMGUS (all the tidy threads and discussions are already there), but we can talk about more "TL-oriented" stuff in here.
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Okay this is just my opinion and I didn't read all of this thoroughly but... with volunteer projects you should probably take small steps. Even if there's a lot of motivation right now it might wane and you don't want to be stuck with a half finished product that does nothing instead of a fully finished product that does something (but not everything). You also need to make absolutely sure that people will actually use it, that is to say make it useful and make it really easy to use. I think it's a really good idea to take it up with people like you are doing in here but end users have no idea about Java and diagrams, try to make sure that end users also understand what's actually going to happen so they can provide feedback. Also be careful in restricting people in what they can do because suddenly they'll just do it the old fashioned way to make it just like they want, i mean the old fashioned way has worked for ages anyway and it's not that terrible at all. Make it accessible, a lot of people don't like to run any applications on their computers so consider a web API for your product. While Java is kind of portable everybody can load a website (if not then they shouldn't be hosting in the first place).
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On November 20 2012 09:55 prplhz wrote:
Okay this is just my opinion and I didn't read all of this thoroughly but... with volunteer projects you should probably take small steps. Even if there's a lot of motivation right now it might wane and you don't want to be stuck with a half finished product that does nothing instead of a fully finished product that does something (but not everything). You also need to make absolutely sure that people will actually use it, that is to say make it useful and make it really easy to use. I think it's a really good idea to take it up with people like you are doing in here but end users have no idea about Java and diagrams, try to make sure that end users also understand what's actually going to happen so they can provide feedback. Also be careful in restricting people in what they can do because suddenly they'll just do it the old fashioned way to make it just like they want, i mean the old fashioned way has worked for ages anyway and it's not that terrible at all. Make it accessible, a lot of people don't like to run any applications on their computers so consider a web API for your product. While Java is kind of portable everybody can load a website (if not then they shouldn't be hosting in the first place).
I want it to be integrated in each forum
Like in TL, there could be a bot that automatically does everything, checks votes, creates threads, etc and .
Right now we are at the "let's figure out what the hell we want" phase.
In my opinion what I want is a system that can be integrated in any forum and automates basically every aspect of mafia gaming, with easy interfaces and the like.
One easy reason for this is that I want to both use it in TL and in OMGUS, which have completely different forums and ways to use the forum to play mafia.
Back in OMGUS we are tackling that problem.
Anyways all of us that are "in" this project (it's not a "Project" per se just a bunch of guys talking and shit for now lol) are the "end users" as well so I wouldn't worry about that.
I'm the customer as well and I'll make sure the system fulfills all the needs I want.
Some features can't be done on TL since it's so restrictive, and in that case it might be good to use a web app like you said; although that's not what the system is about (for instance it won't need a web app in OMGUS...well once it's finished hopefully).
I have all the time in the world to make it and wont set any "starting" deadline until I know everything about the system has been acknowledge and we specifically know what we are going to do.
You might as well say that we are just "having fun" now throwing ideas and problems and solutions to those problems. Once we start developing it we'll take it seriously.
If you are interested you can check some threads there (it explains most of this stuff you are talking about).
Also there's no need to know "java" or any tool in particular at this stage. It helps in setting down the design before-hand, but just talking about requirements (like that "portability" issue I mentioned before for instance) suffices at this point.
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Edited
PS: Am I allowed to create a new thread here? To ask opinions, give updates, and basically just post my walls of text somewhere where they won't fuck up with the active games stuff >_>
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United States22154 Posts
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Chrono Trigger Mafia has begun
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EPT
