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All of a sudden you switch to the view that I am inactive? I clearly haven't been inactive. As for your medic "protects" they seem retarded to me, at least your second choice. Your supposed night one choice is between you and Ace/BM and you choice yourself. I could actually believe that protection since I think it was 50/50 based on usefulness of the individual and obviously you would choose yourself on the basis of self interest. However I can't see how the fuck you can run with same train of thought and decide to pick team 2 to protect over team 5.
When we look at there activeness and who posts what team 5 posts way more. If you look at the end pandain posts analysis on the two most suspect teams. Teams 1 and teams 7 which were really well done. Team 2 did nothing of substance yesterday, yet you claim you hastily protected them? That makes no sense.
As far as protecting myself goes, it was argued all over day one the usefulness of the medic and I even was speculating that it wasn't in the game to divert attention from the role. But the general consensus was an immortal medic who is self protecting is a good idea. Plus you can't always count on the mafia to hit in the way you expect, they could be blue hunting and I was acting a little blue. Moderately active posting + Blue role speculation + secondary analysis to stay out of limelight. If they were decent players I feel I would of been a good target, especially if they are trying to avoid obvious protections like you and ace/bm day one and teams 2 and 5 on day two. As another side note, I have done this before and self protected, because it makes sense.
and yeah foolishness I would really like you to elaborate on that. I don't see why you wouldn't vote for either team 8 or team 6 right now.
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Foolishness
United States3044 Posts
I have voted for team 6 already.
As I said, currently I believe the IN's that they are the medic (subject to change of course). I already said twice how it doesn't make much sense for team 1 to be mafia because it doesn't seem plausible for them to be related to anyone other team in the game (except for Rastaban and I, but that would mean one of you medic claimers is green, which is not right). That means that teams 2 and 6 must be mafia.
There's not really much else I can say because it seems obvious from my perspective. I realize that that means very little from your points of view. Honestly I don't know why I expect anyone to change to team 2, I'm keeping my vote on team 6 probably, it just makes a lot of sense from my perspective. I'm not going to push it because I don't want to distract from the medic debate going on, since we'd probably all agree that's the most important topic in the town right now.
BC being inactive through this is not helping your case though. Infundibulum is the one convincing me team 8 is medic, not Incognito.
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I've compiled some posts regarding the role of medic and the two teams that have claimed it.
RoL
He more than either of the other two players makes an effort (if he is medic) to act like he knows less about the medic. If he really was a medic, one would assume that he would know that you send in a PM to protect a certain team. There was also absolutely no need to ask the question if he was medic either as most people would assume that you simply protect a team as a whole. He goes on to make that logical conclusion however and answer his own question in the next sentence which means that this was most likely a deliberate post. He was intentionally asking the question to make himself seem like less of a medic. That'd be good medic behaviour. However if he was mafia, this information would slightly benefit him as he would know how effective his NKs would be. The question still needs not be asked though. I believe that there is a higher probability that this was an attempt to sway our opinion of him as a medic rather than find information as a mafia.
On September 20 2010 15:52 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
Well a couple of things I saw. Foolishness Medic lists are useful because of the psychological implications of it. Will a medic follow it, will a medic protect themselves, etc. I am really wondering if a medic protects an ENTIRE team or just one of the individuals on it, that will definitely show how strong a medic is. Since this is basically everything x2 I would assume most roles are the same and have entire team implications. IE: DT check effects both members of a team (since no reason it shouldn't) therefore a medic protection should cover an entire team.
This next post is consistant with the fact that he didn't claim on day 2 even while under some minor pressure. He doesn't say anything concerning medics that may indicate his role after this.
On September 24 2010 18:29 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:
alright to finish that thought, antitown shit follow by terrible idea for medic claiming for no reason.
Consistant with his behaviour but the sample available for medic behaviour is small anyhow.
Infun
Infundibulum is very unclear in this post about what his stance is but he goes on through the post and basically the only thing he says is that medic should claim if he saves anyone including himself. (Sorry I've been deleting what I've been saying here over and over because it's hard to say much about this post) I'm going to leave any conclusions for this post openended because his behaviour isn't quite definitive of anything just yet.
On September 22 2010 09:05 Infundibulum wrote:Show nested quote +On September 22 2010 08:50 Pandain wrote:
No you silly mongoose, you don't understand. You see, if we had medic claim he would have to protect himself. And then mafia would know to avoid him. Now, so what are the benefits of this?
1. We have confirmed townie(or mafia, so this isn't even that good.) We know not to lynch him.
But if he just protects himself without saying anything, then it will still have the same benefits but mafia won't know to avoid him, therefore we have the possibility of drawing hits into medic protection.
Medic claiming is just a useless tidbit that will help mafia.
Also, you got me killed because "I had no plan" that game, even though that setup was worse for plans!(no role information whatsoever) So shut that "Well we can't make plans" i dont know. it's kind of established at this point that a medic should protect himself. so if the mafia make a hit and it gets blocked, they can assume whoever they targeted was the medic. since the mafia obviously knows who they target, i think it makes sense for the medic to claim then. i'm not sure what happens if a medic protects someone else and blocks a hit though. just precursory thoughts are that if the medic makes a save, he should probably claim - i get the feeling mafia fakeclaims are potentially very powerful in this game
Infundi goes on to say that claiming medic by mafia first is risky as they don't know if there really is a medic or not. However there is only a 50% chance of there being a medic which results in a 25% chance of being lynched especially with the town holding the Incog/Infun team in high regard for their contributions. This allows them to out any medics or half-clear themselves and have a higher potential for getting the other team lynched. His reasoning here is moot and could be really interpreted either way. Granted, the argument looks town-like but he goes on to repeat it vigorously in his next post. LSB's argument against him wasn't very strong but the fact that Infundi keeps pushing this as his defense clearly shows that he's thought alot about how their behaviour would relate to the possibility that they've fake claimed medic. Upon seeing this, one can immediately see that it's not as town-like to do this and is much closer to a 50/50. As well, Incognito has been aggressive this game is contradictory to Infundibulum's claim that the two of them avoid doing risky things. Heavy aggression= risky if you're town or mafia. Town may go to lynch you if you're wrong and mafia just endangers themself.
On September 26 2010 15:18 Infundibulum wrote:
2. Mafia claiming medic first is really risky because they don't know whether there's a medic or not. In a LyLo situation, it's the town that's at risk and not the mafia. There's no reason for the mafia to suddenly stop playing it safe and go balls out unless they want to "win with style." neither Incog nor I is that kind of player (granted that's a bit of wifom, but if you've played any games with either of us you should know that).
Nothing really bothers me other than the last post where he is wrong about Incognito's behaviour this game but tries to use his behaviour as a defence and the fact that he says mafia claiming medic is risky but avoids providing the numbers which actually show otherwise.
Incognito
This post is quite peculiar to me as Incognito states that medics should protect the Vocal town teams. When you think of vocal team in this game who do you think of? Incognito of course. Clearly he was typing down what he was thinking at the moment and was not doing any sort of long term planning whether he was mafia or not. If he was truly medic, the only reason to post this would be for WIFOM purposes which is perfectly fine.
On September 19 2010 18:44 Incognito wrote:
With that said, time for some useful discussion. Unlike the TL Mafia game's I've played, this game doesn't have a Godfather. Therefore, DTs are that much more viable, especially in terms of checking QUIET scummy teams. Medics should be protecting VOCAL pro-town teams. This way, mafia is incentivized to take pot shots at the middle of the pool, as shooting the scummy players is obviously bad and helps narrow down the pool, and shooting active players risks running into medic protection. Mafia is also incentivized to be active because a) they can draw medic protection, b) they must avoid being targetted by DT checks. Mafia can't hide at the bottom because there is no GF or miller card to save them. There are also way to few players to be able to effectively hide from DT checks. The beauty is that even if DTs/medics don't exist, mafia must still play as if they do exist. So this strategy does not rely on the existence of blue roles.
Incognito has been very aggressive in this game which can be considered pro-town but is also pro-mafia in short games such as these.
All in all, I found RoL to be slightly medic-esque, Incognito to be aggressive which isn't necessarily pro-town in this setup and Infundibulum to be slightly non-medic-esque when you see his posts in relation to his partner.
I'm going to go out on a limb here and vote team 8. This was a horrible analysis by the way. I wasn't able to come to many conclusions but the few that I have come to have lead me to this vote. I believe Infundibulum slipped up. All these posts have to do with their behaviour as a potential medic rather than town vs mafia btw.
##Vote Team 8
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On September 27 2010 02:23 Infundibulum wrote:Show nested quote +On September 26 2010 22:27 LSB wrote:
This is a weird defense. Infun is saying that the medic should be like “Oh look there is no counterclaim, obviously infun is medic!”
That’s just dumb. The “Pointing out there is no counterclaim” is an incredibly stupid argument for a medic to rely on when straight out counterclaim is so much more stronger.
This convinces me that Infun is mafia
Please stop twisting my posts. My defense is that a mafia fakeclaim of medic at this point in the game makes little to no sense; neither Incog nor I are the types of players to do ballsy moves like that, I don't think anyone who's played with either of us will disagree about that. The town is who's in trouble right now, and there's no need for the mafia to come out and force a "1 team or the other is mafia because of this claim," situation, but that's what RoL did. I'm pointing out that its dumb for RoL to counterclaim because he's the mafia, and by counterclaiming the mafia play the basic trump card - if he wanted he could have easily argued against our claim without counterclaiming first. If RoL was actually a medic, a counterclaim would have been the right thing to do. But he's not the medic, because his claim makes no sense. As my partner pointed out, his claimed protections Night 1 and 2 are not logical and I'd expect better choices of protection from those 2 players. Show nested quote +Fun Fact™ for those who can't decide who's telling the truth: why do you think it was me who asked Korynne if the medic/protected person gets a PM notification? Don't you think that RoL, masquerading as the eager medic, would have wanted to know this important information? Now that Infun pointed this out, I don’t think trying to read if Team 8 is medic is a good idea. Team 8 has probably been planning this claim for a while, planting information for a future defence. + Show Spoiler +Anyone else wana claim medic? This is implausible from a strategic standpoint. Think for a minute - why would the mafia plan a medic claim from Day 1 when they don't know which roles are in the game? If you are mafia, why go through the trouble just to fake claim medic day 3 (and 'breadcrumb' it day 1 and 2?), running the risk of a real medic coming out and forcing your team into a 1v1 situation? Especially with 2 town deaths already, the risk > reward so much that this can't even be WIFOM. A mafia claiming medic in the way my team did today would have to be playing intentionally poorly. The reason I asked about PM notifications is that there was a lot of talk about medic confirmations and who the medic should protect. Being the medic, knowing whether or not there are PM notifications is pretty important in terms of planning what to do if we make a save, for example.
This is stupid to argue, I asked plenty of questions regarding medic as well. PM notification of saves doesn't really help us this game as there is no PMing unless you are mafia. If a hit misses the medic knows they saved someone. What does it matter if the individual knows they were saved? Its not like they get to know who saved them. I don't see how asking that question makes you any more of a medic then me.
Look, the only thing stopping me from knowing that you're red right now is the fact that you are so obviously defending RoL's counter claim. If RoL dies today you must know you're surely next based on your long and incorrect accusations of my team. Which means you must either be sure you can get my team lynched, or that you are town and genuinely believe that Team 6 is telling the truth. In case of the latter, shame on you :p
I wouldn't expect the second mafia team to be so visibly supportive of Team 6 because if Team 6 is lynched today that visible team [your team!] in all likelihood gets axed next day, since my team would be clear, and that's gg for them. I'd expect the mafia team to play like Teams 2 or 3 has been playing during this Day, especially if you, LSB the townie, are doing the dirty work for them. If you're still holding some animosity because we wanted to lynch you Day 1, please get over it and read the recent day or 2 from a neutral perspective.
Once again this doesn't support how I would play this from mafia. This is an insanely ballsy move that is completely unnecessary from me if I was mafia considering no one suspected me at all.
The key points are:
1. If Incog and I are red, this play is really bad from a strategic standpoint
2. RoL's counterclaim was poorly devised; his claims of protecting himself night 1 and 2 simply don't hold up under scrutiny. See Incog's post.
3. Team 1's vocal defense of Team 6 means they are either mafia trying to flat out win today without a backup plan, or that Team 1 is townie caught on the wrong side and the mafia is letting Team 1 do the arguing. This is because if team 6 dies, they will flip red, most heavily implicating Team 1. So if team 6 is lynched today, I implore the town not to immediately jump at the throats of Team 1 because the playstyle of Teams 2 and 3 this Day fits more closely to a mafia profile IMO.
1. You were going to die anyway, there are plenty of behavioral tells from the previous day like incogs apologetic to your medic claim. It reeks of desperate mafia play.
2. Wrong. Read my reasoning. Anytime a medic can self protect in a game, he should self protect. Plus the reason I can call you out is because the town is going to believe me and get rid of you and if for some reason they choose to lynch the OTHER mafia my ability to protect the other two remaining town makes it really hard for you to make a good hit, since you can't hit me otherwise it proves you are mafia.
3. So flipfloppy. I don't even know what to say to that. Plus your team mate contradicts you by believing Foolishness is 100% town. You can't even get your story strait.
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On September 27 2010 06:02 RebirthOfLeGenD wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 02:23 Infundibulum wrote:On September 26 2010 22:27 LSB wrote:
This is a weird defense. Infun is saying that the medic should be like “Oh look there is no counterclaim, obviously infun is medic!”
That’s just dumb. The “Pointing out there is no counterclaim” is an incredibly stupid argument for a medic to rely on when straight out counterclaim is so much more stronger.
This convinces me that Infun is mafia
Please stop twisting my posts. My defense is that a mafia fakeclaim of medic at this point in the game makes little to no sense; neither Incog nor I are the types of players to do ballsy moves like that, I don't think anyone who's played with either of us will disagree about that. The town is who's in trouble right now, and there's no need for the mafia to come out and force a "1 team or the other is mafia because of this claim," situation, but that's what RoL did. I'm pointing out that its dumb for RoL to counterclaim because he's the mafia, and by counterclaiming the mafia play the basic trump card - if he wanted he could have easily argued against our claim without counterclaiming first. If RoL was actually a medic, a counterclaim would have been the right thing to do. But he's not the medic, because his claim makes no sense. As my partner pointed out, his claimed protections Night 1 and 2 are not logical and I'd expect better choices of protection from those 2 players. Fun Fact™ for those who can't decide who's telling the truth: why do you think it was me who asked Korynne if the medic/protected person gets a PM notification? Don't you think that RoL, masquerading as the eager medic, would have wanted to know this important information? Now that Infun pointed this out, I don’t think trying to read if Team 8 is medic is a good idea. Team 8 has probably been planning this claim for a while, planting information for a future defence. + Show Spoiler +Anyone else wana claim medic? This is implausible from a strategic standpoint. Think for a minute - why would the mafia plan a medic claim from Day 1 when they don't know which roles are in the game? If you are mafia, why go through the trouble just to fake claim medic day 3 (and 'breadcrumb' it day 1 and 2?), running the risk of a real medic coming out and forcing your team into a 1v1 situation? Especially with 2 town deaths already, the risk > reward so much that this can't even be WIFOM. A mafia claiming medic in the way my team did today would have to be playing intentionally poorly. The reason I asked about PM notifications is that there was a lot of talk about medic confirmations and who the medic should protect. Being the medic, knowing whether or not there are PM notifications is pretty important in terms of planning what to do if we make a save, for example. This is stupid to argue, I asked plenty of questions regarding medic as well. PM notification of saves doesn't really help us this game as there is no PMing unless you are mafia. If a hit misses the medic knows they saved someone. What does it matter if the individual knows they were saved? Its not like they get to know who saved them. I don't see how asking that question makes you any more of a medic then me.
Um, the reason PM notification matters is that the person who was protected can speak up in the thread to say, "I took a hit last night." Without PM notification they can't do this. It has nothing to do with one team PMing another team. Claiming a hit matters, even if you don't saved you. Why are you trying to tell people that knowing who the mafia targeted doesn't matter?
Show nested quote +
Look, the only thing stopping me from knowing that you're red right now is the fact that you are so obviously defending RoL's counter claim. If RoL dies today you must know you're surely next based on your long and incorrect accusations of my team. Which means you must either be sure you can get my team lynched, or that you are town and genuinely believe that Team 6 is telling the truth. In case of the latter, shame on you :p
I wouldn't expect the second mafia team to be so visibly supportive of Team 6 because if Team 6 is lynched today that visible team [your team!] in all likelihood gets axed next day, since my team would be clear, and that's gg for them. I'd expect the mafia team to play like Teams 2 or 3 has been playing during this Day, especially if you, LSB the townie, are doing the dirty work for them. If you're still holding some animosity because we wanted to lynch you Day 1, please get over it and read the recent day or 2 from a neutral perspective.
Once again this doesn't support how I would play this from mafia. This is an insanely ballsy move that is completely unnecessary from me if I was mafia considering no one suspected me at all.
Nobody suspected you besides teams 3 and 7, you mean.
Besides, in this quote I'm talking about LSB/Pyrr. Not you/BC.
Show nested quote +
The key points are:
1. If Incog and I are red, this play is really bad from a strategic standpoint
2. RoL's counterclaim was poorly devised; his claims of protecting himself night 1 and 2 simply don't hold up under scrutiny. See Incog's post.
3. Team 1's vocal defense of Team 6 means they are either mafia trying to flat out win today without a backup plan, or that Team 1 is townie caught on the wrong side and the mafia is letting Team 1 do the arguing. This is because if team 6 dies, they will flip red, most heavily implicating Team 1. So if team 6 is lynched today, I implore the town not to immediately jump at the throats of Team 1 because the playstyle of Teams 2 and 3 this Day fits more closely to a mafia profile IMO.
1. You were going to die anyway, there are plenty of behavioral tells from the previous day like incogs apologetic to your medic claim. It reeks of desperate mafia play. 2. Wrong. Read my reasoning. Anytime a medic can self protect in a game, he should self protect. Plus the reason I can call you out is because the town is going to believe me and get rid of you and if for some reason they choose to lynch the OTHER mafia my ability to protect the other two remaining town makes it really hard for you to make a good hit, since you can't hit me otherwise it proves you are mafia. 3. So flipfloppy. I don't even know what to say to that. Plus your team mate contradicts you by believing Foolishness is 100% town. You can't even get your story strait.
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1. Why was I going to die anyway?
2. Nope, and this reasoning was proven wrong by Ace before he died. Let's pretend you're really the medic for a second. Why would the mafia hit your team, who has a really strong inactive player, and been slightly on the radar as potential reds? Why would you protect yourself Night 1 when the mafia had no reason to hit you? At least in our case, the two most likely targets were either our team, due to Incog's large presence in the town, or Ace's team, because he's Ace. We guessed wrong, but never once did we consider that the mafia would hit team 6. I'm not sure what you're trying to sayin the second sentence. Of course I can't hit you - I'm the medic!
3. My teammate and I are independent people that don't always agree on everything. Speaking of teammates, it's probably about time for BC to show up and try to save your ass.
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Oops I guess I forgot
[Vote]Team 6
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I'm not entirely sold on Team 2 being mafia. I've made many enemies this game, such as Team 1 and Team 7. And now Team 6. As it stands right now, Team 1/6 are voting for me in (almost) full force.
The Team 2 thing makes sense given they're also inactive in a game where mafia doesn't need to be active. However, I'm not sure Team 1's vote accusing is the be all end all because no lynch was the dominant option on day 1.
Really, if Team 2 is mafia, the game is already over. Its split between Team 6/8 2 teams and 2 teams. Team 2 is the deciding vote, so if they're mafia, why haven't they wagonned me yet?
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On September 27 2010 04:01 Foolishness wrote: Infundibulum is the one convincing me team 8 is medic, not Incognito.
What convinces you that I'm medic? I'm starting to worry that my words aren't going to get through to the other town team (team 1?) and that we're going to lose. I think I've laid out my arguments fairly well, but don't really know what more i can say...
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yay no need for me to have to make a long post
however im confused, it's obviously between team 6/8 at this point and one is certainly mafia but
if incognito team was medic why the fuck wouldnt he protect himself? with how active and pro town incognito was trying to be you'd think surely they would want to keep themselves alive/think they're likely to be a target.
Or did they think that there was some levelling going on where obviously he'd be the most natural target so mafia might think he was the most natural target for med prot so not hit him?
nahhh that doesn't really pan out well.
obviously my team isnt mafia lol or we could just stack on whichever one of you two we knew was town and get it over with. This is hurting my brain cause team IN has been active enough to get a read off of then you have the other team where the other member is totally AWOL and RoL is well he's him.
anyways
##vote team 8
i like bum voting for team 1 lol
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Oh look here comes the mafia hammer train.
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On September 27 2010 09:46 Incognito wrote:
I'm not entirely sold on Team 2 being mafia. I've made many enemies this game, such as Team 1 and Team 7. And now Team 6. As it stands right now, Team 1/6 are voting for me in (almost) full force.
The Team 2 thing makes sense given they're also inactive in a game where mafia doesn't need to be active. However, I'm not sure Team 1's vote accusing is the be all end all because no lynch was the dominant option on day 1.
Really, if Team 2 is mafia, the game is already over. Its split between Team 6/8 2 teams and 2 teams. Team 2 is the deciding vote, so if they're mafia, why haven't they wagonned me yet?
Not my fault my teammates are lazy >.> and really I'm just voting you temporarily for now. I've mentioned that I managed to only find a bit of information about you two "medic" teams and I'm basically going to go over your actions again before the day is over and think about changing my vote.
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you're not even trying, are you?
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On September 27 2010 10:22 SouthRawrea wrote:Show nested quote +On September 27 2010 09:46 Incognito wrote:
I'm not entirely sold on Team 2 being mafia. I've made many enemies this game, such as Team 1 and Team 7. And now Team 6. As it stands right now, Team 1/6 are voting for me in (almost) full force.
The Team 2 thing makes sense given they're also inactive in a game where mafia doesn't need to be active. However, I'm not sure Team 1's vote accusing is the be all end all because no lynch was the dominant option on day 1.
Really, if Team 2 is mafia, the game is already over. Its split between Team 6/8 2 teams and 2 teams. Team 2 is the deciding vote, so if they're mafia, why haven't they wagonned me yet? Not my fault my teammates are lazy >.> and really I'm just voting you temporarily for now. I've mentioned that I managed to only find a bit of information about you two "medic" teams and I'm basically going to go over your actions again before the day is over and think about changing my vote.
Your buddy just wagoned me so T_T
I'm not really expecting you to change your vote, so if you're mafia, you don't have to bother trying. You have nothing to lose by disappearing and not doing what you say.
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I really haven't been communicating with my teammates honestly haha. They're kinda just moseying along :/. I think they're just happy enough not to have any votes on them. I would've probably been PMing you and probably a couple other teams had it been not considered cheating.
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Think about it this way. 3 teams are on my tail. The only reason for me to be talking right now is that Foolishness is my scumbuddy and I desperately need to convince town not to lynch me. If I'm mafia and Foolishness is town, I don't need to say anything, I just let Foolishness misvote, then have me/my scumbuddy bandwagon on RoL at the last minute.
Look at the votes and look at the positions people have taken.
If I'm mafia, then my behavior doesn't make much sense unless Foolishness is mafia. If Foolishness was mafia, there is no reason for me to medic claim. RoL was scummy enough as it is. I wouldn't have needed to risk claiming when the three other teams are plenty scummy enough to lynch. Besides, It also doesn't make sense for Foolishness to defy my T1 analysis in favor of T7 if we're both mafia. Plainly speaking, its highly unlikely for me to be mafia at this point. Lynch team 6.
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True true... I'ma hold out for now though.
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On September 27 2010 10:24 Infundibulum wrote:
you're not even trying, are you?
i was contemplating just posting my vote to piss people like you off
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EPT
