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Quoting Zona:
"But you know what? If town members lie about their roles - that's good, too. This is the ONLY aspect in which I think it's good for town members to lie - every other type of lie by town members usually muddles the picture and is detrimental to the town, but lying about your role - the thing that mafia doesn't know and wants to know - that's useful for the town.
You are trying to pin down which of the people at Qatol's position in the draft order and above is lying about their role - but identifying liars (about roles) does NOT identify mafia! I reiterate - if you catch someone lying about almost everything else in the game, that might be a sign of mafia - but lying about your role is one thing town members likely SHOULD DO! I wish that a lot of the "vanilla" claims that have come out really are lies! But I have a bad feeling they aren't, due to the way things have played out.
he's advocating not lynching liars, which is scummy as fuck
people who have been hunting liars (like radfield) increase town cred a lot
when he says "but identifying liars (about roles) does NOT identify mafia!" he is just trying to confuse you.
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On May 05 2010 05:15 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 05:04 Qatol wrote:On May 05 2010 05:01 Bill Murray wrote:
what im saying is who gives a fuck who took that role? that was a terrible choice for someone to have picked really early. i am much more worried about who took bulletproof. And I am not worried about bulletproof at all. Why does the town care? We kill during the day. When bulletproof doesn't do anything. what about if: 1) if i give away a gun that night vigs 2) if foolishness is pro-town 3) not sure about meth man 4) jack of all trades these are scenarios where that player that took bulletproof as mafia would put a dent in our plan you are more concerned about a weak doctor than this? weak doctor is like hit or miss bulletproof is 100% unless it's SK afaik
1) You shouldn't be doing this. We have 2 choices: 1. We can whittle down the town early when people haven't posted a bunch. 2. We can whittle down the town very slowly with lynches and sometimes the mafia will hit (see my longer post when I post it. I'm on page 18 still.) I think I'll take #2.
2) So his hit gets blocked once. We are voting on the hit, and I still don't like the town killing too much early.
3) I'd rather the meth man stay hidden (but active) and take a hit from the mafia.
4) Again, I'd rather the jack not hit at all than hit a town player. And I'll take the 1/15 (2 players dead, jack won't hit himself) chance that the jack hits the bulletproof.
None of these put a dent in our plan. Bulletproof doesn't stop lynches.
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To give further emphasis on why it's important to preserve our roles - the serial killer. Pretty much no one has talked about our other enemy (except for a mention by Scamp) - but consider this person's abilities.
Appears innocent to cops.
Cannot be killed at night.
Has no team - so there will be no teamwork slipups that we can catch.
Other than a unlucky hit by this person on the methman, town will have to identify this person and lynch (or dayvig or venge-kill) him or her to win. If this person is careful in the thread and we fail to identify him or her by his or her posts - which is the only role that can identify this person? The tracker. The tracker is the only role (other than an inventor's inventions) that can identify the serial killer. And now it seems like the town has basically told both mafia and the serial killer which half of the players they can ignore if they're looking to kill the tracker. Stop digging after roles, please!
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zona all you are doing is appearing scummy to me
you don't want roleclaims which would very much benefit the town, and you want to ignore liars
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now im not saying for medics or cops or such to claim publicly, but they could breadcrumb or something
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i even tried to breadcrumb to find out who was the detective/cop before i gave out my cellphone
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On May 04 2010 07:15 Bill Murray wrote:
Who is gonna step it up? How many have taken time to help? Our cause is a noble one, scumhunting... ahhh how i love it... but it's only noble if people will do something. I really need people to claim. Scum would be helped by that, though, so it's probably a bad idea. One could think of alternative ways to claim if they were smart, though. Using their brain. Right? Couldn't one just ... i don't know. One could softclaim. Perhaps that's bad, though, as mafia would target them.
if someone was a cop though they would find it beneficial to let me know... it's just hard to do so where we can't pm... yeah im gonna stop rambling now
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On May 05 2010 05:27 Bill Murray wrote:
zona all you are doing is appearing scummy to me
you don't want roleclaims which would very much benefit the town, and you want to ignore liars
I've already explained myself. Roleclaims allow the mafia and serial killer to target strong roles to kill, especially with one doctor out of the way. I entirely disagree with the idea that roleclaims help the town right now.
I also think it's a good idea for town power roles to lie about their roles (and only about their roles) until it is the appropriate time for investigators to reveal results. The time when a general roleclaim is necessary is only when the town is in dire straights and a mislynch will likely lead to a town loss.
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LOL @ bill. This ain't the single player campaign where you only wory about yourself. If you are red or continue to play iffy, we all lose. You already had a night to create an unaccounted for invention. Now you talk about guns... cool shit but if you've really learned anything from the past few games is that people with nukes or guns do NOT on the balance fare well. Everyone wants to be a hero (low cost but BIG bragging rights if your brilliance lands a red on day one, plus some people are just annoying and "deserve it" so some amount of satisfaction is guaranteed). DTs, on the other hand... always help. Especially here, where our default one may not be sane.
@Zona: good points on the role claims.
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On May 05 2010 03:16 Qatol wrote:
I'll probably spend a few hours writing a post
what happened to that, qatol?
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 05 2010 05:20 Bill Murray wrote:Quoting Zona:Show nested quote +"But you know what? If town members lie about their roles - that's good, too. This is the ONLY aspect in which I think it's good for town members to lie - every other type of lie by town members usually muddles the picture and is detrimental to the town, but lying about your role - the thing that mafia doesn't know and wants to know - that's useful for the town.
You are trying to pin down which of the people at Qatol's position in the draft order and above is lying about their role - but identifying liars (about roles) does NOT identify mafia! I reiterate - if you catch someone lying about almost everything else in the game, that might be a sign of mafia - but lying about your role is one thing town members likely SHOULD DO! I wish that a lot of the "vanilla" claims that have come out really are lies! But I have a bad feeling they aren't, due to the way things have played out. he's advocating not lynching liars, which is scummy as fuck people who have been hunting liars (like radfield) increase town cred a lot when he says "but identifying liars (about roles) does NOT identify mafia!" he is just trying to confuse you.
Honestly, I think Zona has a good point. If I drafted high up, and got a sweet role, there is a good chance I might lie about it, particularly claiming Vanilla.
But I still think that the copy-cat leads us to a mafia, for all the reasons I laid out before. I also think it likely that Sidesprang is the copy-cat, again for the reasons I previously posted.
However, as far as what happens after Sidesprang, I'm not so sure.
And Zona, I'm definitely not advocating a mass roleclaim in any form. Apart from the Jeejee and Hobbes thing, which in retrospect doesn't look as promising as I thought at the time, I haven't asked for anyone to roleclaim. I only compiled the list of people who had already roleclaimed.
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On May 05 2010 05:31 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On May 05 2010 03:16 Qatol wrote:
I'll probably spend a few hours writing a post what happened to that, qatol?
On May 05 2010 05:21 Qatol wrote:
(see my longer post when I post it. I'm on page 18 still.)
I'm on my 6th page in word right now. Don't worry, it's coming.
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@citi.zen: I wanted to set up a PM network giving 1 person the ability to PM everyone, and we could coordinate through triangulation
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radfield, the copycat is now a weak doctor, it really doesn't matter.
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well, since this has slowed down, i'm going to go do my last test for this semester
be back in at most 2 hours, as that's the time limit on it.
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On May 04 2010 14:42 ~OpZ~ wrote:Show nested quote +On May 04 2010 14:13 Korynne wrote:
Hmmm, this further increases my suspicion of BM/Foolishness.
I'm assuming d3 could've died trying to protect one of them.
Well now that mafia copy cat has a nub weak doctor role...
Can someone claim alignment on BM/Foolishness? I guess it's a bad idea to reveal your role so soon though. =\
FoS on BM/Foolishness, but certainly don't want to lynch the wrong one here. =\
[...] You don't think BM had protection if he wasn't mafia? Seriously, mafia hitting BM would of been....Not the smartest idea if he's town. So forget your FoS. It's weak. Extremely shakey.
Okay seriously OpZ you need to read, or be more clear.
A weak doctor died, which means that he could've tried to protect a mafia and got killed. Seeing as how we're all like PROTECT BM AND FOOLISHNESS, d3 could've died protecting one of them. I'm not implying BM or Foolishness should've died, I'm saying d3 could've died trying to protect one of them if they are mafia. Granted, SK probably killed someone and mafia killed someone but then again one of their kills could've been blocked so who knows...
Also citi.zen, why do you vote for killing me out of me OpZ and Falcynn, I have no opposition to you killing me for information (finding out that BM/Foolishness is mafia/compvig) but you didn't state a reasoning.
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Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On May 05 2010 05:36 Bill Murray wrote:
radfield, the copycat is now a weak doctor, it really doesn't matter.
I'm not hunting for the copycat or the weak doctor, I'm hunting for scum, regardless of role. I'm not sure where else we can start.
I'm realizing now that Qatol could have lied about being Vanilla at the start to protect himself, in which case all my logic flies out the window. It also means Sidesprang could be one of our few townies with a sweet role... ugh.
I suppose if that is the case Qatol could let us know before we lynch him(...I know, again with the roleclaims....)
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On May 05 2010 05:33 Bill Murray wrote:
@citi.zen: I wanted to set up a PM network giving 1 person the ability to PM everyone, and we could coordinate through triangulation
Not guaranteed to help, and likely easy to infiltrate. How do you know you aren't giving it to the wrong person, who can then try to get roleclaims from other players in PMs? Or, if nobody trusts them, how can they be effective? How can this person be effective if they don't have access to DTs? Who will protect them, when you need protection too.
Look, I'm all for town circles, but they are not THAT strong either. There may be better inventions I have not thought of, I just don't this one is it.
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The copycat possibly getting weak doctor is important - it's not something that doesn't matter.
If we go with the prevailing assumption that the copy cat is mafia, the mafia now have a weak doctor. But a weak doctor for the mafia is as good as any other (non-paranoid) doctor for the mafia since they already know who not to target! In fact, it seems like it would be pretty damn useful for the mafia to have a doctor as the doctor can protect against night kills against mafia members - kills from the compulsive vig, the joat's shot, and the serial killer as well.
Now of course if the compulsive vig is mafia, then it's probably not as big of a deal, since the vig won't shoot his or her own team anyways. But what if the compulsive vig is town? Actually, I don't like where this leads...
If we have a town compulsive vig and the town votes on who the vig should shoot (making the target public) then it becomes simple for the mafia copy cat weak doctor to prevent the hit. And better yet (for the mafia), in this situation the compulsive vig gets put in a bad light after this happens because people might suspect the vig didn't follow the town's will when the town's target didn't die.
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That last paragraph, I meant it becomes simple for the mafia copy cat weak doctor to prevent the hit, if the town target was a mafia member.
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EPT
