|
ok. yeah it's 5 am here, i'm a bit cranky too. watching KT vs Woongjin has cheered me up tho 
|
On April 19 2010 18:38 Bill Murray wrote:ok. yeah it's 5 am here, i'm a bit cranky too. watching KT vs Woongjin has cheered me up tho
stupid KT wrecking my fantasy team. knew i shoulda took stars.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 19 2010 13:53 Incognito wrote:Ok. Time for some stuff. First of all, theres a lot of people moaning that we should just lynch an inactive because we don't have enough information. These people should step it up. There is actually quite a bit of information out here to analyze. So instead of waiting for one of us to come up and hand you the information on a plate, please try to go through and look through posts organized by user. First off, innocents. A few people have caught my attention as very likely innocents. These people are: Zona BC d3_crescentia Caller All the people on this list have been posting rationally. (Ace would probably disagree with me on this about Caller, but from what I remember from Caller's previous games, he didn't post like this as mafia). Time to pull out the accusation gun. Osmoses: Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 07:08 Osmoses wrote:
I'm a total newbie but wouldn't it make more sense to save double lynches as late as possible, when you have solid info to go on? This is his first real post. He plays the I'm a newbie card, and proceeds to ask a question that is already being discussed. No contribution here. He also makes preemptive excuses for his posting, emphasizing that he is a newbie, but...you get the picture. Check out TL Mafia V for an example of Tricode pulling the same stunt. From experience, new pro-town players would not try to emphasize their newbiness, as it adds a burden for the town. On the other hand, new mafia players tend to use this to excuse their useless behavior. Panic usually sets in and they try to play the im confused card. Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 05:58 Osmoses wrote:
Assassins will influence politics, trying to gear lynches in their favor against the ones they suspect to be assassins... Basically they will be the very annoying players that you can't really pin as scum or townie because they have double agendas. They may just appear confused or stupid, I mean they'd have to cook up some pretty elaborate schemes to sway the votes in the favor of someone they want killed if that person doesn't act like scum.
Its really pretty tiring trying to figure out who's what and who and why with such little information, and no clues -_- The only effect assassins have on the town is their votes and their influence, but lynching the right guy seems hard enough already, so if they do sway the vote we might just get a scum anyway... Should we really even be worrying about them? Their night kills, having only 2, will surely be spent on someone they truly believe to be an assassin, so as not to waste them, and the longer the game goes the closer the odds get to 50%. Those seems like good odds. More confusion. How ironic. Anyway...Ok...So its tiring trying to find out who is who...but you haven't said anything yet about what you HAVE found out. Oh you also say there's little information to go on? Yeah I'm sure its very tiring to look for information that's not there...in which case you might as well just have given up. Oops! Well, if you're so tired trying to information, surely you must have found at least something. Spit it out. We want to hear it. Anyway, thats the one person who stuck out in my mind. Everyone should be looking for information instead of lying around and complaining how there is no information. Some information is there. And some of it we have to bring out so we get more information. From experience, mafia games are usually more stagnant when theres no pms. You can't call people out as effectively as you can in pmland, partially because of spam, and partially because people don't feel inclined to respond when theres more than one accusation out there. So for now, I'm going to switch strategies and only try to focus on one suspect at a time. I expect responses.
OK, then lets focus on one person at a time. First off, I don't think his statements about the double lynch are particularly scummy. We were discussing them at the time, and it DOES make some sense in a way to save them for when we have better information; better chance of netting two bad guys. Mind you, i'm against the idea and think we should use our first one at the earliest opportunity.
However, what did jump out at me ealier was this post:
On April 18 2010 17:18 Osmoses wrote:
I'm suspicious of Zona, his attack on BC seems forced somehow, too condescending, but also too fervent for both to be scum. Why is everyone, that is to say BM, focusing on the assasins anyway? It seems to me they are very unlikely to win in the end, as they will probably be lynched or killed by other assassins well before the end of the game.
Here's my supergenius plan: lynch the least active player, it's the quiet ones you gotta watch!
To my mind, Zona seemed quite legit at that point, and more importantly this was a bandwaggon vote, given that Bill Murray had stated he was voting Zona just prior. It seemed suspicious then so i noted it down.
|
did someone really just read into my voting? you should go read TL Mafia XX LOL
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 19 2010 19:19 Bill Murray wrote:
did someone really just read into my voting? you should go read TL Mafia XX LOL
No, I'm reading into Osmosis' bandwaggoning of your voting
|
On April 19 2010 18:55 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 13:53 Incognito wrote:Ok. Time for some stuff. First of all, theres a lot of people moaning that we should just lynch an inactive because we don't have enough information. These people should step it up. There is actually quite a bit of information out here to analyze. So instead of waiting for one of us to come up and hand you the information on a plate, please try to go through and look through posts organized by user. First off, innocents. A few people have caught my attention as very likely innocents. These people are: Zona BC d3_crescentia Caller All the people on this list have been posting rationally. (Ace would probably disagree with me on this about Caller, but from what I remember from Caller's previous games, he didn't post like this as mafia). Time to pull out the accusation gun. Osmoses: On April 18 2010 07:08 Osmoses wrote:
I'm a total newbie but wouldn't it make more sense to save double lynches as late as possible, when you have solid info to go on? This is his first real post. He plays the I'm a newbie card, and proceeds to ask a question that is already being discussed. No contribution here. He also makes preemptive excuses for his posting, emphasizing that he is a newbie, but...you get the picture. Check out TL Mafia V for an example of Tricode pulling the same stunt. From experience, new pro-town players would not try to emphasize their newbiness, as it adds a burden for the town. On the other hand, new mafia players tend to use this to excuse their useless behavior. Panic usually sets in and they try to play the im confused card. On April 19 2010 05:58 Osmoses wrote:
Assassins will influence politics, trying to gear lynches in their favor against the ones they suspect to be assassins... Basically they will be the very annoying players that you can't really pin as scum or townie because they have double agendas. They may just appear confused or stupid, I mean they'd have to cook up some pretty elaborate schemes to sway the votes in the favor of someone they want killed if that person doesn't act like scum.
Its really pretty tiring trying to figure out who's what and who and why with such little information, and no clues -_- The only effect assassins have on the town is their votes and their influence, but lynching the right guy seems hard enough already, so if they do sway the vote we might just get a scum anyway... Should we really even be worrying about them? Their night kills, having only 2, will surely be spent on someone they truly believe to be an assassin, so as not to waste them, and the longer the game goes the closer the odds get to 50%. Those seems like good odds. More confusion. How ironic. Anyway...Ok...So its tiring trying to find out who is who...but you haven't said anything yet about what you HAVE found out. Oh you also say there's little information to go on? Yeah I'm sure its very tiring to look for information that's not there...in which case you might as well just have given up. Oops! Well, if you're so tired trying to information, surely you must have found at least something. Spit it out. We want to hear it. Anyway, thats the one person who stuck out in my mind. Everyone should be looking for information instead of lying around and complaining how there is no information. Some information is there. And some of it we have to bring out so we get more information. From experience, mafia games are usually more stagnant when theres no pms. You can't call people out as effectively as you can in pmland, partially because of spam, and partially because people don't feel inclined to respond when theres more than one accusation out there. So for now, I'm going to switch strategies and only try to focus on one suspect at a time. I expect responses. OK, then lets focus on one person at a time. First off, I don't think his statements about the double lynch are particularly scummy. We were discussing them at the time, and it DOES make some sense in a way to save them for when we have better information; better chance of netting two bad guys. Mind you, i'm against the idea and think we should use our first one at the earliest opportunity. However, what did jump out at me ealier was this post: Show nested quote +On April 18 2010 17:18 Osmoses wrote:
I'm suspicious of Zona, his attack on BC seems forced somehow, too condescending, but also too fervent for both to be scum. Why is everyone, that is to say BM, focusing on the assasins anyway? It seems to me they are very unlikely to win in the end, as they will probably be lynched or killed by other assassins well before the end of the game.
Here's my supergenius plan: lynch the least active player, it's the quiet ones you gotta watch! To my mind, Zona seemed quite legit at that point, and more importantly this was a bandwaggon vote, given that Bill Murray had stated he was voting Zona just prior. It seemed suspicious then so i noted it down.
The more I think about it, I do get townie vibes from you because of you putting FoS onto Osmoses. Being a little more experienced than you, and take this with a grain of salt because I am not the best town player as my play always appears scummy when im green, you shouldn't read into day 1 votes because it is the random voting stage of the game. analyze the wagons after someone is dead, though, as you can see patterns emerge. I've actually found a couple people on mafiascum that way.
|
Alright, quick morning post before I go to work. I'm glad Jugan is starting to speak up. Here's the list of semi-inactives again, stolen from IntotheWow from some pages ago with some modifications -
+ Show Spoiler +
RebirthOfLegend
Scaramanga
RaGe
[NyC]HoBbes
Fulgrim
krndandaman
nbtnbt5
love1another
jpak
motbob
Notes: I've removed Jugan, Incognito and KF91 from this list, though I'm still a bit iffy on KF91 as he hasn't said much recently. At any rate, this is a lot of people not saying or doing much.
JadeFist isn't on this list either since he recently posted, BUT it's interesting to see what he posted:
On April 19 2010 13:51 JadeFist wrote:
Voted Caller.
Last time I played decafchicken, a long time forum veteran, was the Godfather. I feel like the choice for mafia members is not entirely random and I wouldn't be surprised if a forum "celebrity" such as Caller was mafia.
But whether or not someone is a forum veteran is irrelevant to if they're actually Mafia (and in that game decafchicken wasn't ANYWHERE near as active as Caller's being). If that were the case why not vote for Ace or Incognito or RoL? Let's not have any bandwagons going on here, whether they be from uninformed townies or scum redder than this delicious Sriracha sauce I've got here. Don't fade away into the darkness just yet; we've got more to talk about.
|
Radfield
Canada2720 Posts
On April 19 2010 19:34 Bill Murray wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 18:55 Radfield wrote:On April 19 2010 13:53 Incognito wrote:Ok. Time for some stuff. First of all, theres a lot of people moaning that we should just lynch an inactive because we don't have enough information. These people should step it up. There is actually quite a bit of information out here to analyze. So instead of waiting for one of us to come up and hand you the information on a plate, please try to go through and look through posts organized by user. First off, innocents. A few people have caught my attention as very likely innocents. These people are: Zona BC d3_crescentia Caller All the people on this list have been posting rationally. (Ace would probably disagree with me on this about Caller, but from what I remember from Caller's previous games, he didn't post like this as mafia). Time to pull out the accusation gun. Osmoses: On April 18 2010 07:08 Osmoses wrote:
I'm a total newbie but wouldn't it make more sense to save double lynches as late as possible, when you have solid info to go on? This is his first real post. He plays the I'm a newbie card, and proceeds to ask a question that is already being discussed. No contribution here. He also makes preemptive excuses for his posting, emphasizing that he is a newbie, but...you get the picture. Check out TL Mafia V for an example of Tricode pulling the same stunt. From experience, new pro-town players would not try to emphasize their newbiness, as it adds a burden for the town. On the other hand, new mafia players tend to use this to excuse their useless behavior. Panic usually sets in and they try to play the im confused card. On April 19 2010 05:58 Osmoses wrote:
Assassins will influence politics, trying to gear lynches in their favor against the ones they suspect to be assassins... Basically they will be the very annoying players that you can't really pin as scum or townie because they have double agendas. They may just appear confused or stupid, I mean they'd have to cook up some pretty elaborate schemes to sway the votes in the favor of someone they want killed if that person doesn't act like scum.
Its really pretty tiring trying to figure out who's what and who and why with such little information, and no clues -_- The only effect assassins have on the town is their votes and their influence, but lynching the right guy seems hard enough already, so if they do sway the vote we might just get a scum anyway... Should we really even be worrying about them? Their night kills, having only 2, will surely be spent on someone they truly believe to be an assassin, so as not to waste them, and the longer the game goes the closer the odds get to 50%. Those seems like good odds. More confusion. How ironic. Anyway...Ok...So its tiring trying to find out who is who...but you haven't said anything yet about what you HAVE found out. Oh you also say there's little information to go on? Yeah I'm sure its very tiring to look for information that's not there...in which case you might as well just have given up. Oops! Well, if you're so tired trying to information, surely you must have found at least something. Spit it out. We want to hear it. Anyway, thats the one person who stuck out in my mind. Everyone should be looking for information instead of lying around and complaining how there is no information. Some information is there. And some of it we have to bring out so we get more information. From experience, mafia games are usually more stagnant when theres no pms. You can't call people out as effectively as you can in pmland, partially because of spam, and partially because people don't feel inclined to respond when theres more than one accusation out there. So for now, I'm going to switch strategies and only try to focus on one suspect at a time. I expect responses. OK, then lets focus on one person at a time. First off, I don't think his statements about the double lynch are particularly scummy. We were discussing them at the time, and it DOES make some sense in a way to save them for when we have better information; better chance of netting two bad guys. Mind you, i'm against the idea and think we should use our first one at the earliest opportunity. However, what did jump out at me ealier was this post: On April 18 2010 17:18 Osmoses wrote:
I'm suspicious of Zona, his attack on BC seems forced somehow, too condescending, but also too fervent for both to be scum. Why is everyone, that is to say BM, focusing on the assasins anyway? It seems to me they are very unlikely to win in the end, as they will probably be lynched or killed by other assassins well before the end of the game.
Here's my supergenius plan: lynch the least active player, it's the quiet ones you gotta watch! To my mind, Zona seemed quite legit at that point, and more importantly this was a bandwaggon vote, given that Bill Murray had stated he was voting Zona just prior. It seemed suspicious then so i noted it down. The more I think about it, I do get townie vibes from you because of you putting FoS onto Osmoses. Being a little more experienced than you, and take this with a grain of salt because I am not the best town player as my play always appears scummy when im green, you shouldn't read into day 1 votes because it is the random voting stage of the game. analyze the wagons after someone is dead, though, as you can see patterns emerge. I've actually found a couple people on mafiascum that way.
I am actually starting to get suspicious of you Bill Murray. Not so much from your posting, but more from what seems to be going on around you.
First Osmosis bandwaggons a vote from you on a player who I had thought seemed quite legit. Second, two relatively inactive folks both come out in favour of your assassin plan, despite the fact that no one else can even understand your plan at first, let alone thinks it's a good idea.
On April 19 2010 03:54 nbtnbt5 wrote:
What do we have to lose to try the plan out? It's not like we really having anything to base our lynchings on atm, and it seems like a reliable method of making the mafia take action.
On April 19 2010 02:17 TheLardyGooser wrote:
I still think BMs plan makes the most sense if I understand it right. I feel like it would put the mafia at a much bigger disadvantage but I am still new at this?
A few other things which HAVE jumped out at me about your posting. You keep mentioning things like: being the miller, seeming scummy when green, always being green, being an obvious townie, etc. In addition, you seem to be encouraging people not to take your voting seriously. It seems very possible to me that after having been green for a few games in a row, you can simply use that excuse once you finally hit a red role.
I'm not trying to be harsh here, and I appreciate the advice you offered about day one votes, but all these little things seem to be adding up for me. What do other people think?
|
Belgium9947 Posts
Just read the entire thread, going to class now. I voted, will post my thoughts later today (around 7 hours before voting deadline)
|
On April 19 2010 09:00 Roffles wrote:
Yeah, just gonna chime in a little here. I disagree on lynching an inactive. I'd rather gamble and kill off someone suspicious than take a guess at an inactive. As someone earlier mentioned, if people are inactive, then as the game drags on, people aren't going to take their word at all. Why not just gamble now and take a shot at someone who seems suspicious now? Go big or go home.
Games in the past that ive played all point to lynching big players that look suspicious pays off some of the time but most turn out town, then you're left with inactives which allows mafia to sit there, do fuck all and get away with it
|
Jesus fucking christ, reading through this is like pulling teeth, I'm voting to lynch Jugan as his non senseical crap looks exactly like what 0cz3z used to do to confuse the town when he was mafia and i suggest that everyone else dose the same
Edit: I would just like to let you all know that watching one piece >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> reading this shit
|
|
|
On April 19 2010 22:06 Scaramanga wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 09:00 Roffles wrote:
Yeah, just gonna chime in a little here. I disagree on lynching an inactive. I'd rather gamble and kill off someone suspicious than take a guess at an inactive. As someone earlier mentioned, if people are inactive, then as the game drags on, people aren't going to take their word at all. Why not just gamble now and take a shot at someone who seems suspicious now? Go big or go home. Games in the past that ive played all point to lynching big players that look suspicious pays off some of the time but most turn out town, then you're left with inactives which allows mafia to sit there, do fuck all and get away with it That's why I'm changing my vote from Caller. I only voted Caller back when he was still inactive, but now that he's gotten pretty active I'm going to switch my vote to RoL since he's the only guy that people seem to jumping on who seems to be truly inactive. I can see people's reasons for voting for Jugan, and he definitely seems like a good candidate for tomorrow's lynch, but I think we should lynch someone who's been completely inactive just about in order to encourage people to start posting more. Even if all we do is force people to post random one liners that gives no benefit to the town, without clues we're going to need everyone to start posting in order to have something to analyze.
|
FREEAGLELAND26781 Posts
|
Ace I had the pleasure of waiting 20 hours (when you said 3) for your extensive analysis of your post. I also have left the bet unresolved and it is still outstanding. Your entire extent of posts to this point has been a "fuck it, I'm not helping this stupid town." Please explain why we shouldn't be suspicious of your actions as a result.
|
On April 19 2010 20:37 Radfield wrote:Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 19:34 Bill Murray wrote:On April 19 2010 18:55 Radfield wrote:On April 19 2010 13:53 Incognito wrote:Ok. Time for some stuff. First of all, theres a lot of people moaning that we should just lynch an inactive because we don't have enough information. These people should step it up. There is actually quite a bit of information out here to analyze. So instead of waiting for one of us to come up and hand you the information on a plate, please try to go through and look through posts organized by user. First off, innocents. A few people have caught my attention as very likely innocents. These people are: Zona BC d3_crescentia Caller All the people on this list have been posting rationally. (Ace would probably disagree with me on this about Caller, but from what I remember from Caller's previous games, he didn't post like this as mafia). Time to pull out the accusation gun. Osmoses: On April 18 2010 07:08 Osmoses wrote:
I'm a total newbie but wouldn't it make more sense to save double lynches as late as possible, when you have solid info to go on? This is his first real post. He plays the I'm a newbie card, and proceeds to ask a question that is already being discussed. No contribution here. He also makes preemptive excuses for his posting, emphasizing that he is a newbie, but...you get the picture. Check out TL Mafia V for an example of Tricode pulling the same stunt. From experience, new pro-town players would not try to emphasize their newbiness, as it adds a burden for the town. On the other hand, new mafia players tend to use this to excuse their useless behavior. Panic usually sets in and they try to play the im confused card. On April 19 2010 05:58 Osmoses wrote:
Assassins will influence politics, trying to gear lynches in their favor against the ones they suspect to be assassins... Basically they will be the very annoying players that you can't really pin as scum or townie because they have double agendas. They may just appear confused or stupid, I mean they'd have to cook up some pretty elaborate schemes to sway the votes in the favor of someone they want killed if that person doesn't act like scum.
Its really pretty tiring trying to figure out who's what and who and why with such little information, and no clues -_- The only effect assassins have on the town is their votes and their influence, but lynching the right guy seems hard enough already, so if they do sway the vote we might just get a scum anyway... Should we really even be worrying about them? Their night kills, having only 2, will surely be spent on someone they truly believe to be an assassin, so as not to waste them, and the longer the game goes the closer the odds get to 50%. Those seems like good odds. More confusion. How ironic. Anyway...Ok...So its tiring trying to find out who is who...but you haven't said anything yet about what you HAVE found out. Oh you also say there's little information to go on? Yeah I'm sure its very tiring to look for information that's not there...in which case you might as well just have given up. Oops! Well, if you're so tired trying to information, surely you must have found at least something. Spit it out. We want to hear it. Anyway, thats the one person who stuck out in my mind. Everyone should be looking for information instead of lying around and complaining how there is no information. Some information is there. And some of it we have to bring out so we get more information. From experience, mafia games are usually more stagnant when theres no pms. You can't call people out as effectively as you can in pmland, partially because of spam, and partially because people don't feel inclined to respond when theres more than one accusation out there. So for now, I'm going to switch strategies and only try to focus on one suspect at a time. I expect responses. OK, then lets focus on one person at a time. First off, I don't think his statements about the double lynch are particularly scummy. We were discussing them at the time, and it DOES make some sense in a way to save them for when we have better information; better chance of netting two bad guys. Mind you, i'm against the idea and think we should use our first one at the earliest opportunity. However, what did jump out at me ealier was this post: On April 18 2010 17:18 Osmoses wrote:
I'm suspicious of Zona, his attack on BC seems forced somehow, too condescending, but also too fervent for both to be scum. Why is everyone, that is to say BM, focusing on the assasins anyway? It seems to me they are very unlikely to win in the end, as they will probably be lynched or killed by other assassins well before the end of the game.
Here's my supergenius plan: lynch the least active player, it's the quiet ones you gotta watch! To my mind, Zona seemed quite legit at that point, and more importantly this was a bandwaggon vote, given that Bill Murray had stated he was voting Zona just prior. It seemed suspicious then so i noted it down. The more I think about it, I do get townie vibes from you because of you putting FoS onto Osmoses. Being a little more experienced than you, and take this with a grain of salt because I am not the best town player as my play always appears scummy when im green, you shouldn't read into day 1 votes because it is the random voting stage of the game. analyze the wagons after someone is dead, though, as you can see patterns emerge. I've actually found a couple people on mafiascum that way. I am actually starting to get suspicious of you Bill Murray. Not so much from your posting, but more from what seems to be going on around you. First Osmosis bandwaggons a vote from you on a player who I had thought seemed quite legit. Second, two relatively inactive folks both come out in favour of your assassin plan, despite the fact that no one else can even understand your plan at first, let alone thinks it's a good idea. Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 03:54 nbtnbt5 wrote:
What do we have to lose to try the plan out? It's not like we really having anything to base our lynchings on atm, and it seems like a reliable method of making the mafia take action. Show nested quote +On April 19 2010 02:17 TheLardyGooser wrote:
I still think BMs plan makes the most sense if I understand it right. I feel like it would put the mafia at a much bigger disadvantage but I am still new at this? A few other things which HAVE jumped out at me about your posting. You keep mentioning things like: being the miller, seeming scummy when green, always being green, being an obvious townie, etc. In addition, you seem to be encouraging people not to take your voting seriously. It seems very possible to me that after having been green for a few games in a row, you can simply use that excuse once you finally hit a red role. I'm not trying to be harsh here, and I appreciate the advice you offered about day one votes, but all these little things seem to be adding up for me. What do other people think?
I don`t really care to listen to the BW calls about the BM plan. I addressed this with a post a few pages back... I definetly misunderstood it at first, but I still feel it is best plan out there by virtue of the fact it is the only plan out there, so prove me wrong I implore you.
At this point, all we have is a stupid witch hunt aimed with no evidence at people who are just being unpleasant.
As it stands right now for all of the people except RoL that have multiple votes we have followed the same stupid formula.
1) They are inactive, we call them out
2) Flame war starts
3) Votes get cast
If you were red wouldnt you maybe not want to be a huge dick to everyone and make them all look at you?
I am sorry but our governing philosophy right now is, if the guys a dick he must be red.
Out of the whole thread I feel like the only people that make any sense at this point (myself included) are Radfield, and IntotheWow.
We are all dead men
|
Belgium9947 Posts
We really need a change of attitude here imo.
I propose a town-wide ban (with lynching if not lived by) on accusations/analysis of previous posts until Day 2, and a lynch of the currently least active, most voted person RebirthOfLegend
Because let's face it, we're not going to be able to have enough of us agree on an already suspicious person to be able to lynch him on day 1, and we're only helping mafia decide which townies to snipe atm.
This would help us focus on getting a decent plan together for the rest of the game.
|
|
|
Vote changed to RebirthOfLegend because he has not made a post yet in this game, and I completly agree with voting off the least active person to begin with. Also I think a consensus may be met on this, as opposed to others.
|
On April 20 2010 02:59 RaGe wrote:
We really need a change of attitude here imo.
I propose a town-wide ban (with lynching if not lived by) on accusations/analysis of previous posts until Day 2, and a lynch of the currently least active, most voted person RebirthOfLegend
Because let's face it, we're not going to be able to have enough of us agree on an already suspicious person to be able to lynch him on day 1, and we're only helping mafia decide which townies to snipe atm.
This would help us focus on getting a decent plan together for the rest of the game.
you are so red
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
