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FREEAGLELAND26780 Posts
A few things: If you haven't already noticed, I'll be running this game now since Ace is off sexing. Please send PMs for role actions and inquiries to me.
Oh, and I won't be able to write up any new stuff (i.e. nukes falling/being launched or day ending) until later tonight, since I have an away tennis match. I promise to get back here posthaste though. Since I won't be back by the time, if any deadline is to be met, consider the game on hold.
Thanks!
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On April 10 2010 02:51 JeeJee wrote:
hold on let me get this straight
if we're in lylo, lmnop has to be mafia, and if we're not, it's okay if we fuck up since it's not lylo?
my question is, why do you ignore a lying roleclaimer in favor of someone who may not be mafia at all, just because if he isn't, we can make a mistake? do you realize this means this time next day will be the same except we will have one less townie arguing? and instead of 1/3 town being mafia, it will be almost half?
@citizen i have all the answers to that post; i am surprised you misinterpretted my position yet again, but i have to run to a meeting. i will be back in 1hr10min +/-10min, well before any nuke deadline. so BE HERE
Where did lylo come from? I thought ~OpZ~ said LMNOP was Mafia no matter either citizen or Caller was lying, which makes him a perfect compromise. Hell, you even agreed he has to be Mafia if Caller is correct:
On April 08 2010 23:45 JeeJee wrote:
let me rip the mafia to shreds
iaaan
haster
citi.zen
lmnop
Currently there are 4 Mafia 5 Townie. (44.4%)
Next day there will be 3 Mafia 4 Townie. (42.9%)
Where did 1/3 and half the Town argument come from? (unless I am failing at numbers again.) Moreover, the fact that Town has to vote together does not change, and getting four Townies to agree with each other will definitely be easier than getting five Townies to agree with each other.
However, I agree with your statement that it is beneficial to get Caller/citizen issue resolved now- and I am eagerly waiting how laaan and d3_cresentia will place his vote. Hopefully it will be enough to break this stalemate.
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I can't believe you guys are still not seeing that Caller is red. It's beyond me how he can have you believe one lie after another after another simply by changing his story after any new suspicion is shed on him.
Look at micro-mafia 1. I was in the same situation with Ace there. I was right there too. Of course, being right doesn't matter if you can't persuade others, so I guess I fail and Caller wins. Too bad for the town. Sorry, I am out of patience.
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On April 10 2010 03:40 citi.zen wrote:
I can't believe you guys are still not seeing that Caller is red. It's beyond me how he can have you believe one lie after another after another simply by changing his story after any new suspicion is shed on him.
Look at micro-mafia 1. I was in the same situation with Ace there. I was right there too. Of course, being right doesn't matter if you can't persuade others, so I guess I fail and Caller wins. Too bad for the town. Sorry, I am out of patience.
Jesus Christ, be glad you are not voted out like you did in micro-mafia 1. I hate when people use other games for their argument- that is exactly where all this PGO nonsense is coming from. The most important thing today is to prevent Townie (you) lynch, so there should be no problem voting off LMNOP if the situation demands so.
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ok im back meeting overran by 15min or so
writing up a post..
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On April 10 2010 03:36 haster27 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 02:51 JeeJee wrote:
hold on let me get this straight
if we're in lylo, lmnop has to be mafia, and if we're not, it's okay if we fuck up since it's not lylo?
my question is, why do you ignore a lying roleclaimer in favor of someone who may not be mafia at all, just because if he isn't, we can make a mistake? do you realize this means this time next day will be the same except we will have one less townie arguing? and instead of 1/3 town being mafia, it will be almost half?
@citizen i have all the answers to that post; i am surprised you misinterpretted my position yet again, but i have to run to a meeting. i will be back in 1hr10min +/-10min, well before any nuke deadline. so BE HERE Where did lylo come from? I thought ~OpZ~ said LMNOP was Mafia no matter either citizen or Caller was lying, which makes him a perfect compromise. Hell, you even agreed he has to be Mafia if Caller is correct: Show nested quote +On April 08 2010 23:45 JeeJee wrote:
let me rip the mafia to shreds
iaaan
haster
citi.zen
lmnop
Currently there are 4 Mafia 5 Townie. (44.4%) Next day there will be 3 Mafia 4 Townie. (42.9%) Where did 1/3 and half the Town argument come from? (unless I am failing at numbers again.) Moreover, the fact that Town has to vote together does not change, and getting four Townies to agree with each other will definitely be easier than getting five Townies to agree with each other. However, I agree with your statement that it is beneficial to get Caller/citizen issue resolved now- and I am eagerly waiting how laaan and d3_cresentia will place his vote. Hopefully it will be enough to break this stalemate.
ok, again, you are not reading within the context. it is a useful skill to have, but not when you're trying to ensure nobody is misinfored, especially not in this situation.
Read that whole post again. You will notice that those 4 have to be mafia under TWO conditions:
1) caller is telling the truth
2) we're in lylo
if we are in 5-4 split, we have those 4 mafia, and we are in lylo
if we are in 6-3 split, we are not in lylo, and two of iaaan/lmnop/haster is mafia
the argument that opz put forward is regardless of the situation (and regardless of whether caller is a liar or not), lmnop has to be mafia and if he's not, we are not in lylo so we can afford to make a mistake. that means if we can afford to make a mistake we are in 6-3 situation, (here is where the 1/3 town comes from) and after that we would be in 4-3 lylo.
make sense?
i say the argument is silly because we have a lying claimer staring us straight in the face and you seem to be ignoring it! in favor of what? someone who may be mafia or may not (however if not, we can presumably afford to make the mistake)
note: well, the above you is a you as in a general you, not a specific you. I'm expecting you (a specific you) to ignore it because you are on his team if my jugment is correct. the general 'you' refers to our shield
re next: i believe d3 is the last non-voter
writing up a post to address your original queries now..
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Okay, that's an argument I can accept. By the way, you are going to launch a fake nuke to extend the day if necessary, right?
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I am sorry but I have to leave for moment so I'll have to keep my vote on Caller. This should be no problem since JeeJee will launch fake nuke like he said he will if the Town is in no lynch situation.
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Decleration:
I'm now officially a mindless drone that follows ~OpZ~'s orders...
I occasionally will post something half-useful, but that's about it.
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On April 10 2010 01:28 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 01:20 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 23:55 JeeJee wrote:
to be fair i haven't gotten your clear stance on citizen's roleclaim lie. what do you make of it? at least answer this; i have done my best to explain my position as clearnly as possible. this still stands unanswered by opz, which irks me the most because this is what i base my whole argument on citizen's lynch about. it has been standing unanswered this entire time, even after i started ignoring all of my other points/queries in an effort to get your official stance on this one so there is no confusion with other points, yet somehow this still remains unanswered. please please PLEASE answer this. give me your official statement here. I have done my best to answer every single thing about my position and i believe i have done so. please return the favor by answering this one thing Well, your argument is actually two pronged: you point out my role seems inconsistent with your view of the PGO. You also say this is more inconsistent than Caller's play, and that my claim only makes sense for a red, not a townies, as opposed to Caller's claims. You thus want to vote for me instead of him. Keeping this in mind, please answer this bit: Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 00:43 citi.zen wrote:On April 10 2010 00:37 JeeJee wrote:On April 10 2010 00:24 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia? The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it. On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target? to be fair, i'm not saying caller is being consistent. I'm saying he's the lesser of the 2 evils because at least he hasn't provably lied about his role in a way that doesn't make sense for a townie but does make sense for a mafia trying to dodge a FoS placed by opz or, would you like to pull up my relevant posts so that i may have a clearer idea of what you mean by saying "you keep saying caller is being consistent"? like i said, nobody can afford being misinformed here How does it make sense for a townie to claim Cop so as not to be a mafia target? This only makes sense for a red - since they are not afraid to be killed at night.
first of all, one of the 'prongs' of my argument isn't that your role seems inconsistent with my view of PGO. no. again wrong. let me be perfectly clear. You claim ability X. then you claim role Y with ability Z. There isn't a matter of opinion or assumption here. I have outlined many times, google f'ing PGO if you so desire, i am tired of explaining this point for the umpteenth time. citizen has lied on his role, provably lied, and you don't give a damn. this isn't my view on PGO, this is definition of PGO.
now, this lie (this provable lie) does not make sense if you are a townie. Period. it does make sense otoh if you are a mafia. this is why i am voting for you. and am upset i have only been able to convince iaaan of this fact.
now onto caller's claims. again, i am distraught he isn't posting but that seems to be irrelevant now.
his lies so far included lying about his country name and lying about his antinuke arsenal. both of these i have addressed and did state they look sketchy. however townies can lie with appropriate motive -- look at opz, he has lied several times and he's as good a townie as any, but this works because he had the right motive. however, citizen's lies DO NOT HAVE THE APPROPRIATE MOTIVE FOR IT from a townie point of view. moreover they are more severe and confirmed in the sense that he lied about his role. our track record indicates the only anti town player we caught was because he lied about his role!
god damn i can't make it any f'ing clearer than this.
and the worst part? opz has not addressed the very simple fact that citizen has provably lied about his role. this is what irks me and at this point this is the only thing i want him to answer.
again i re-state:
##vote:citizen
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FUCK INTERNET LAGGINGP OST ALRDY
On April 10 2010 01:28 citi.zen wrote:Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 01:20 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 23:55 JeeJee wrote:
to be fair i haven't gotten your clear stance on citizen's roleclaim lie. what do you make of it? at least answer this; i have done my best to explain my position as clearnly as possible. this still stands unanswered by opz, which irks me the most because this is what i base my whole argument on citizen's lynch about. it has been standing unanswered this entire time, even after i started ignoring all of my other points/queries in an effort to get your official stance on this one so there is no confusion with other points, yet somehow this still remains unanswered. please please PLEASE answer this. give me your official statement here. I have done my best to answer every single thing about my position and i believe i have done so. please return the favor by answering this one thing Well, your argument is actually two pronged: you point out my role seems inconsistent with your view of the PGO. You also say this is more inconsistent than Caller's play, and that my claim only makes sense for a red, not a townies, as opposed to Caller's claims. You thus want to vote for me instead of him. Keeping this in mind, please answer this bit: Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 00:43 citi.zen wrote:On April 10 2010 00:37 JeeJee wrote:On April 10 2010 00:24 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point. we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'. let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim. also True...Citizen would of done better claiming his nukes were stolen. Smart boy, smart boy.... actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie. Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic? oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here. No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia? The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it. On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target? to be fair, i'm not saying caller is being consistent. I'm saying he's the lesser of the 2 evils because at least he hasn't provably lied about his role in a way that doesn't make sense for a townie but does make sense for a mafia trying to dodge a FoS placed by opz or, would you like to pull up my relevant posts so that i may have a clearer idea of what you mean by saying "you keep saying caller is being consistent"? like i said, nobody can afford being misinformed here How does it make sense for a townie to claim Cop so as not to be a mafia target? This only makes sense for a red - since they are not afraid to be killed at night.
first of all, one of the 'prongs' of my argument isn't that your role seems inconsistent with my view of PGO. no. again wrong. let me be perfectly clear. You claim ability X. then you claim role Y with ability Z. There isn't a matter of opinion or assumption here. I have outlined many times, google f'ing PGO if you so desire, i am tired of explaining this point for the umpteenth time. citizen has lied on his role, provably lied, and you don't give a damn. this isn't my view on PGO, this is definition of PGO.
now, this lie (this provable lie) does not make sense if you are a townie. Period. it does make sense otoh if you are a mafia. this is why i am voting for you. and am upset i have only been able to convince iaaan of this fact.
now onto caller's claims. again, i am distraught he isn't posting but that seems to be irrelevant now.
his lies so far included lying about his country name and lying about his antinuke arsenal. both of these i have addressed and did state they look sketchy. however townies can lie with appropriate motive -- look at opz, he has lied several times and he's as good a townie as any, but this works because he had the right motive. however, citizen's lies DO NOT HAVE THE APPROPRIATE MOTIVE FOR IT from a townie point of view. moreover they are more severe and confirmed in the sense that he lied about his role. our track record indicates the only anti town player we caught was because he lied about his role!
god damn i can't make it any f'ing clearer than this.
and the worst part? opz has not addressed the very simple fact that citizen has provably lied about his role. this is what irks me and at this point this is the only thing i want him to answer.
again i re-state:
##vote:citizen
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##VOTE: Elemenope
This lynching is not the one I want. JeeJee is right about one thing: when we have a confirmed liar we should vote them off. We disagree on who that is, and JeeJee's unwillingness to acknowledge Caller is at least as suspect and Inf/myself worries me and should be noted for future reference.
At the end of the day I would favor lynching me or Caller over Elemenope. Get the votes for either and I shall join you.
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jesus christ i hope this goes thru
##nuke:opz
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jesus christ i hope this goes thru
##nuke:opz
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Since the discussion earlier today has been all about Citizen/Caller, here's what I'm thinking. Citizen's PGO claim doesn't make any sense in consideration of what PGO usually is, and I'm thinking that there's some other hidden something to his role. On the other hand, we have Caller, who has spouted a bunch of BS about how he's Israel/Japan/Bratislava/whatever, as well as being an Insane Cop. I'm not sure of Caller's true alignment, since he might easily be mafia making shit up about people - and because he's an alignment cop he would have the information about who is town/not if he were mafia, since alignment cops don't get any details on roles.
Then we've got the heat thrown on Elemenope. If anyone has any questions regarding my anti-nuke, it's because 1) we had an anonymous North Korean nuke (which I thought was a RED attack) and 2) he had been posting fairly town-aligned up until recently. Now that things have changed, well, who knows what he could actually be.
If the argument between citizen/Caller is going to go on any further, here's what I suggest: citizen will attempt to nuke Caller/Elemenope, and if he's PGO (by his description) I'm guessing we're still going to go through the motions of nuclear launch, but it'll land a dud. If Caller attempts to pull any crazy BS, we'll simply either 1) lynch him or 2) anti-nuke if he decides to nuke.
Yes, I'm quite aware this plan is going to raise ToD... but the problem is that we can't afford to NOT nuke at this point in time. The town needs 100% accuracy over the next 4 days if we're going strictly by lynching. I'm assuming we have 3 nukes until we hit the Danger Zone, and unless Ace is going to dick us over hard then WE need to make use of these last three.
One more thing - in a normal mafia game, the town would have lost by now, even with 100% lynch accuracy. It's only because we have nukes/special roles that we're still here.
So, my question - what happens when citizen attempts to nuke Caller? The day gets extended by another 24 hours, but a normal missile falls? Or does citizen implode on himself?
Let's shift gears for a second here, back to the player list:
CONFIRMED:
~OpZ~ [Canada, Mason]
Abenson [United Kingdom, Mason]
d3_crescentia [Sweden, Town-aligned] - I'm confirming myself
UNCONFIRMED
Caller (Israel/Japan, INSANE Alignment Cop)
citizen (China, Paranoid Gun Owner)
JeeJee (???, Town-aligned?)
haster27 (Portugal, Townie)
Elemenope (Vietnam, Townie)
Iaaan (Antarctica, Veteran)
The unclaimed:
- Colombia, Nuke Stealer
- Unknown, Bus Driver
- Unknown, Roleblocker
First thing - JeeJee needs to step up and claim, so this list is complete. The next five on the list are immediately suspect. We can remove Caller/citizen right now since that's who we're discussing currently, so that leaves us with haster27/Elemenope/Iaaan. My gut feeling is that one of these is actually our Colombian nuke-stealer.
Iaaan's claim as Veteran has been virtually uncontested since we lynched Nikon, though this is something that we actually CAN confirm, were it not for our radiation levels - but at least we it's possible to actually account for this, if we need to confirm him. I'm thinking we actually DO need to confirm him, since his claim effectively takes him off as a nuke target. But given the amount of lying that's gone down in this game so far it's entirely possible that his role is completely different (i.e. scum).
My suspects at this point in time: haster27, Elemenope, Iaaan... and one of Caller/citizen.
I'd like to reserve my vote until the last moment, so... ##vote: abstain
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On April 10 2010 04:57 JeeJee wrote:FUCK INTERNET LAGGINGP OST ALRDY Show nested quote +On April 10 2010 01:28 citi.zen wrote:On April 10 2010 01:20 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 23:55 JeeJee wrote:
to be fair i haven't gotten your clear stance on citizen's roleclaim lie. what do you make of it? at least answer this; i have done my best to explain my position as clearnly as possible. this still stands unanswered by opz, which irks me the most because this is what i base my whole argument on citizen's lynch about. it has been standing unanswered this entire time, even after i started ignoring all of my other points/queries in an effort to get your official stance on this one so there is no confusion with other points, yet somehow this still remains unanswered. please please PLEASE answer this. give me your official statement here. I have done my best to answer every single thing about my position and i believe i have done so. please return the favor by answering this one thing Well, your argument is actually two pronged: you point out my role seems inconsistent with your view of the PGO. You also say this is more inconsistent than Caller's play, and that my claim only makes sense for a red, not a townies, as opposed to Caller's claims. You thus want to vote for me instead of him. Keeping this in mind, please answer this bit: On April 10 2010 00:43 citi.zen wrote:On April 10 2010 00:37 JeeJee wrote:On April 10 2010 00:24 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:33 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 22:22 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 22:08 JeeJee wrote:On April 09 2010 12:58 citi.zen wrote:On April 09 2010 12:25 JeeJee wrote:
sorry, it seems i have missed communicating one very important point.
we have confirmation that citizen lied. we do NOT have confirmation that caller lied (at least not yet). This is what boggles me the most here, that we are voting for a 'maybe' over a 'for sure'.
let me elaborate -- citizen claims his ability is to counter nukes. Then he claims his ability is PGO. One of these is a lie. We know this. You bring up the point that he may have left out the piece about killing@night because he wanted to entice a nuke steal. I pointed out how this cannot be the case because he did not wait for night post before he changed his claim.
also
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actually i believe this would paint him in an even worse light if it were possible -- after his claim of PGO, someone presumably visits him at night and does not die. This would just mean another lie.
Townies have no reason to do the lies that citizen has made. The ONLY reason that I can see, you have outlined: enticing a nuke steal. However, the events that transpired after rule out this possibility completely. In fact, they actually fit in very well with a mafia choosing to claim PGO in order to stop your FoS from becoming a reality. maybe you actually nabbed a mafia there and caused him to panic?
oh and finally, one nuke was stolen from me
also, re: this latest replacement, i guess this means waiting for a d3 modkill isn't an option, so we are back to discussing citizen vs caller. i'm trying my hardest to explain my position, and i'm pretty sure my judgment is correct here.
No - you do not know I lied. You assume it, based on what you think the definition of the paranoid gun owner is in some other game. Read every post myself or Inf made - we never claimed to have the ability to hit any night checker. Ever. Had we intended the role claim to be a deterrent for a DT you think we might have mentioned that part, no? Also, you claim you do not know Caller lied yet? So you think he is both Israel and Japan? And you find it rational for him to claim DT to "stay low and not be a mafia target"? Please explain to me how this laying low business works - I thought the mafia wants to kill DTs, no? The longer this is going on the more I think you are red. A rational person would not miss these simple facts and constantly try to distort them. reading the thread will prevent posts like these i'm afraid but as long as we're absolutely clear, i will adress this too, although I really shouldn't have to. However, at this time, nobody can afford being misinformed so I will lay this out too. first of all, understand the context in which this post was made. me and opz were debating about caller, and i had fully addressed my suspicions of his lies about his anti nuke arsenal as well as his country. would you like me to pull up the post? after this was taken into account, i stated, as I am stating here again, that the main reason I suspect you over caller is because you lied about your role whereas caller did not. (at this point actually opz brought up that caller may have in fact lied about his role too, but upon further inspection this was not the case -- if it were, my entire position would have to be rethought. I have already said many times caller's claim is sketchy and I would lynch him in an instant UNTIL you showed up. This is very important which is why I'm stating it for the umpteenth time so we're all on the same page here) The other bit about the PGO -- it is an assumption, and a perfectly valid one. Just as a vigi kills at night, so does a PGO kill his visitors. It is what the role is about. It's not just mafia scum. Every single mafia site agrees.ECNet: http://wiki.ecnet.org/wiki/MafiaParanoid gun owner – If the paranoid gun owner is targeted at night for anything, whether it's a kill, investigation, or even protection, the paranoid gun owner must kill whomever targeted him Neoseeker http://wikiguides.neoseeker.com/wiki/The_Mafia_Game/Army_VeteranPerhaps a role used more frequently than the Army Veteran role, a Paranoid Gun Owner will automatically kill anyone that targets them at night for any reason, whether positive or negative. Mafiascum http://www.mafiascum.net/wiki/index.php?title=Paranoid_Gun_OwnerThe Paranoid Gun Owner, similar to the Army Veteran, involuntarily kills anyone who targets him during the night, regardless of alignment. He can be a liability to the Town for this reason, as he indiscriminately kills Cops, Doctors, etc. Would you like me to keep going? This isn't a matter of opinion. You lied about your role. Your entire argument is based on the belief that Infund lied when he mentioned the name Ace gave to his ability. It's impossible for me to justify something Ace did - he defined people's roles as he saw fit in this game. At the very least admit that neither me nor Infund explicitly claimed to have the ability to kill any night visitors. All we claimed, consistently, was to have the ability to retaliate. There was no explicit attempt to deter any DT from role-checking. I disagree. if I were to claim vigilante, I don't have to specifically claim that my role is killing people at night. There may be game-specific restrictions like I cannot kill on the first night, or can only kill twice or whatever, but either way I can kill people at night. Likewise for PGO -- by stating you are PGO, you are explicitly claiming your ability to kill any night visitor indiscriminately. maybe the restriction is you can only do it once then revert to townie (a popular variation) but the underlying mechanics is always there. as a sidenote to opz -- i have only been skimming you versus lmnop for the reason that if my judgment is correct here, there is at least one mafia between lmnop/iaaan, and very likely both of them are. am i reading this correctly, did he accuse you of being mafia? The vigilante comparison is not entirely fair, but yes, in the end I wish Ace would have chosen a different name for my ability. In the end it would be quite unfortunate it the town lost because of it. On another note - you continue to say Caller is being consistent. Please explain how his his claim that he was trying not to be a mafia target and lay low squares with claiming to be a cop, twice. Why did he think that would make him less of a target? to be fair, i'm not saying caller is being consistent. I'm saying he's the lesser of the 2 evils because at least he hasn't provably lied about his role in a way that doesn't make sense for a townie but does make sense for a mafia trying to dodge a FoS placed by opz or, would you like to pull up my relevant posts so that i may have a clearer idea of what you mean by saying "you keep saying caller is being consistent"? like i said, nobody can afford being misinformed here How does it make sense for a townie to claim Cop so as not to be a mafia target? This only makes sense for a red - since they are not afraid to be killed at night. first of all, one of the 'prongs' of my argument isn't that your role seems inconsistent with my view of PGO. no. again wrong. let me be perfectly clear. You claim ability X. then you claim role Y with ability Z. There isn't a matter of opinion or assumption here. I have outlined many times, google f'ing PGO if you so desire, i am tired of explaining this point for the umpteenth time. citizen has lied on his role, provably lied, and you don't give a damn. this isn't my view on PGO, this is definition of PGO. now, this lie (this provable lie) does not make sense if you are a townie. Period. it does make sense otoh if you are a mafia. this is why i am voting for you. and am upset i have only been able to convince iaaan of this fact. now onto caller's claims. again, i am distraught he isn't posting but that seems to be irrelevant now. his lies so far included lying about his country name and lying about his antinuke arsenal. both of these i have addressed and did state they look sketchy. however townies can lie with appropriate motive -- look at opz, he has lied several times and he's as good a townie as any, but this works because he had the right motive. however, citizen's lies DO NOT HAVE THE APPROPRIATE MOTIVE FOR IT from a townie point of view. moreover they are more severe and confirmed in the sense that he lied about his role. our track record indicates the only anti town player we caught was because he lied about his role! god damn i can't make it any f'ing clearer than this. and the worst part? opz has not addressed the very simple fact that citizen has provably lied about his role. this is what irks me and at this point this is the only thing i want him to answer. again i re-state: ##vote:citizen
This is retarded. If you can show me a single time in this thread where Inf or myself said we can kill night visitors i will concede to being a "proven" liar. In the meantime your argument is based entirely on the belief that Ace used the same definition of the PGO role you expect to find in every game. That is it. Ask Ace to explain why he chose the PGO name for this ability after the game if you want - I can't tell you that.
Your paragraph about Caller makes no sense, as usual. If you are willing to believe someone claimed cop so as not to be a mafia target I don't know what to say. Perhaps after the game, with a cooler head, you will see that for the absurd statement it is.
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my internet is really screwing up @work here idk wtf is up
im going home at 5:00est (about 40 min from now) i will post more when i get home
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One other thing JeeJee: if you are really sure I am lying, why not nuke me instead of OpZ? Could have been fun, da?
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rofl TL is plaintxt for me looks weird..>.<
@citizen that doesnt make sense, whats stopping you from having nukes even if you're PGO?
the only way we can prove that part of your ability is if you launch a nuke at someone, it turns out to be fake, then u retaliate vs someone and it turns out to be real
either way opz asked me to target him so he has 2 retals to play with (vs me and vs abenson)
its a real pain to post right now, pages take forever to load.. ima be back in ~2hr or so and address everything on non shitty internet.
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