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On March 07 2010 17:18 Ace wrote:
If you want us to post all our posts in another thread thats fine. However I'm not for going along with another random list. I don't see anything that makes the current list we have now a problem.
Basically spending time picking out different lists isn't productive.
Secondly I don't agree with having the most inactive person shoot. Naturally this just means Mafia will post more, and now power roles will definitely want to post more. So now we have even more spam from non-mafia also. Might as well keep it random where no one has control over anything and let that be the deciding ideal.
Yeah after I wrote up the part about the inactive list, I realized I prefered that to any random list. But I posted it anyway for future games. I think we should come to a consensus for future games what the "random list" will be. I think we should just standardize the "random list" for future games as the signups list from top to bottom. Ace you like metagaming so I doubt you'd have a problem with this.
Ok, power roles will also want to post more. But in your random list, you wanted power roles to claim anyway when we got to their turn to shoot, right? So how is the inactive method any worse? If they'd be discovered by this method, they would by yours too.
And also being blue is no excuse for having to spam or even to be inactive. Blues should be able to post something significant. They shouldn't get exemptions just because they are blue. More information is also better than less information. Plus with the archive thread we can keep track of things much easier.
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In other words, I don't think the extra spam is too harmful. We can keep track of it. The benefit is forcing activity, and confirming those green inactives who don't feel like playing the game. Even if they don't want to check the thread, all we need to do is pm them to ask them to make an execution when they're at the bottom of the list, it takes them 5 minutes, and it saves us having to worry about someone who we have very little information about.
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I'm not opposed to them being discovered. I have a problem with them attempting to post more or less depending on that. If it's just a random list they have to prove themselves at some point. When it comes to posting numbers well that idea clearly goes out the window. They can dodge.
I really don't have a problem with using the sign up list. I just didn't do it for this game because I know someone would say I'm rigging it even though I'm 15 out of 26.
I completely agree with Blues not being excused for posting crap. However we treat our blue roles like they are more important than town and give them too much leeway. Hence they get to play like shit and no one really holds them accountable. This is why I'm moving towards roleclaiming strategies so people have to finally learn how the game is really played. Apply some pressure and lets see how shit rocks.
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I gotta agree with Ace here... Mafia will be able to avoid detection just by voting more, and we'll inevitably get much more crap on the thread, with no assurances that you'll actually detect anyone.
I see that we'll get tons more info on everyone, but that info may or may not be useful, and it will be much harder to sort through it all.
I like the idea of that the Red Archives though it may become tedious to copy/paste all the posts from here...
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On March 07 2010 17:51 Ace wrote:
I'm not opposed to them being discovered. I have a problem with them attempting to post more or less depending on that. If it's just a random list they have to prove themselves at some point. When it comes to posting numbers well that idea clearly goes out the window. They can dodge.
I really don't have a problem with using the sign up list. I just didn't do it for this game because I know someone would say I'm rigging it even though I'm 15 out of 26.
I completely agree with Blues not being excused for posting crap. However we treat our blue roles like they are more important than town and give them too much leeway. Hence they get to play like shit and no one really holds them accountable. This is why I'm moving towards roleclaiming strategies so people have to finally learn how the game is really played. Apply some pressure and lets see how shit rocks.
Forcing roleclaims? Fair enough, but its not like you can escape forever. (Hmm why do I remember that you were the one a long time ago who said you shouldn't reveal your role?) You like your random list because they will have to prove themselves at some point. The inactive list does the same thing. It functions like a list, once someone passes, we move them out of the queue. The lists, and you can't keep chasing higher post counts forever. Sure you can delay, but you can't run forever. Especially when we're going to have people like yourself posting a lot.
Hmm lemme think about this more for a while and also wait for other people to comment.
On March 07 2010 18:01 meeple wrote:
I gotta agree with Ace here... Mafia will be able to avoid detection just by voting more, and we'll inevitably get much more crap on the thread, with no assurances that you'll actually detect anyone.
I see that we'll get tons more info on everyone, but that info may or may not be useful, and it will be much harder to sort through it all.
I like the idea of that the Red Archives though it may become tedious to copy/paste all the posts from here...
Mafia can't avoid detection by posting (not voting?) more. When you hardly post at all, then either you are mafia actively lurking, or you just don't have time. When you post a lot, at least we know you have time to post. So you have no excuses. Post good material, or paint yourself with a big red X. Hard to sort through it all? I think the archives will help a lot with that.
As for the archives becoming tedious, I don't think its too bad. Uploading what you've posted from day 1 till now may take a bit if you've posted a lot (like Ace), but after that, it takes only a few clicks. Like this post. After I finish this post, I return to the thread, click quote, copy, and paste into my post in the archives. It isn't too tedious since you're only in charge of your posts. And you'll be updating after every post.
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You shouldn't reveal your role. Unless obviously ya know, it's a pro-town thing to do. Pretty much it means dont go talking in PMs or blatantly revealing your role in the thread unless there's a good reason to do so. I'd think at the point where the town starts a mass roleclaim ball you'd probably want to jump on it.
I also want to make it clear I don't think your idea is bad, I just think the RNG list is so impartial someone is going to be cave to the pressure.
Also to make it easier to picture the game I'm going to let you guys know right now I'm suspicious of Malongo and L. Malongo for obvious reasons, and L because no matter what game I'm playing he thinks it's a good idea to attack whatever I'm doing.
In fact we can use this as our unofficial voting card till someone gets shot ^_^
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Ah on to accusations already. Well in that case I'm going to say we should lay off of Malongo. JeeJee is at the top of my list right now. You better step it up and post something useful or I'm going to request your death tomorrow. It might be better to request that you become the executor for tomorrow, but if we're following some fixed shooting order then the only other option is to shoot you. Shoot or be shot Да? So please prove me wrong. We know you're plenty active.
Also is there a reason why some of those posts in the archive thread don't have timestamps on them Ace? I'd prefer them with timestamps and in fact I'm going to go put that in the OP right now.
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No reason, I was quick copying and didn't feel like hitting the quote button at first.
Imo Malongo is far scummier than JeeJee. Anyone threatening to even kill someone for shooting before thinking is obviously thinking like a townie. Malongo getting away with shooting someone as soon as the game starts is a problem for the town. If the next person shoots someone out of the blue tomorrow you can't do anything about it. They'd have just as much right to go free as Malongo did.
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On March 07 2010 18:36 Ace wrote:
No reason, I was quick copying and didn't feel like hitting the quote button at first.
Imo Malongo is far scummier than JeeJee. Anyone threatening to even kill someone for shooting before thinking is obviously thinking like a townie. Malongo getting away with shooting someone as soon as the game starts is a problem for the town. If the next person shoots someone out of the blue tomorrow you can't do anything about it. They'd have just as much right to go free as Malongo did.
Malongo is not scummy. He is just breaking the metagaming rules. Far greater chance of being an impulsive townie than the CIA agent. If you want to kill him why don't we move JeeJee up the shooting queue for now. Unless of course we have better targets. Ace we don't need to move you up right now. Even if you could prove yourself by shooting you have a higher chance of being the CIA agent if the CIA agent is chosen by the mafia. Don't be so eager to move yourself up the queue. And on that note...off to bed.
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Oh meeple spoilers. Good idea  Adding to the rules.
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On March 07 2010 18:50 Incognito wrote:Oh meeple spoilers. Good idea Adding to the rules.
lol I was just going to post a request for spoilers... wayyyy friggin easier to look through
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On March 07 2010 18:47 Incognito wrote:Show nested quote +On March 07 2010 18:36 Ace wrote:
No reason, I was quick copying and didn't feel like hitting the quote button at first.
Imo Malongo is far scummier than JeeJee. Anyone threatening to even kill someone for shooting before thinking is obviously thinking like a townie. Malongo getting away with shooting someone as soon as the game starts is a problem for the town. If the next person shoots someone out of the blue tomorrow you can't do anything about it. They'd have just as much right to go free as Malongo did. Malongo is not scummy. He is just breaking the metagaming rules. Far greater chance of being an impulsive townie than the CIA agent. If you want to kill him why don't we move JeeJee up the shooting queue for now. Unless of course we have better targets. Ace we don't need to move you up right now. Even if you could prove yourself by shooting you have a higher chance of being the CIA agent if the CIA agent is chosen by the mafia. Don't be so eager to move yourself up the queue. And on that note...off to bed.
In my opinion, Malongo was never scummy, but there needs to be a way of enforcing the rules, or people will just go off willy nilly and execute whomever they wanted to.
I don't see the JeeJee connection, can you elaborate Incog?
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I don't really see the benifit of using a randomized list, and have the first guy on that list do the killing. Is it not better to have the guy we are most suspicious of do the kill? So im gonna propose that we start a voting thread where we vote on who we think are the most scum, and we force him to either roleclaim or shoot someone, if he fails to do this the player ranked 2nd in the vote gets the task, and so forth. If the guy roleclaims, and ofc he will do if he is mafia(not CIA) the KGB needs to rolecheck that guy. Im abit unsure how to decide who of the KGB(assuming we have more than one) will do the rolechecking. We really need to get an inner circle with the KGBs up and running, and i hope some of you guys have a good plan for how to make that happen.
Ofc there will be one/more CIA's and him/they will be completly safe from this plan, but they will be safe from the list plan also.
And the worst way of playing this game is haveing people calling out "if you kill player X i will kill you". If this becomes a chain and people are actualy doing it, the Ukrainians can just sit back and relax
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Some scattered thoughts:
I think I'd rather have Malongo DT-checked today because it's obvious that the most powerful weapon the Mafia have is having the CIA coopt our executions. I don't think CIA would be silly enough to move on Day 1, but that's just an opinion and not a deduction.
I think this whole idea of a random list is good, BUT we need to keep it subject to change depending on what happens during the course of discussion taking into account who's making what arguments. A rough estimate says that we have about 6-7 days if we have a mafia that is 5-6 people. This isn't anywhere near enough time for us to go down the entire list systematically, so it's better to keep a fluid list. Also somewhat tangentially, we need to keep in mind that we don't know how mafia KP is calculated right now.
I like the idea of forcing the most inactive player to vote though I'm not entirely sold on it because I haven't thought it through yet.
My primary argument for using it is that if mafia decide to spam random shit in the forums to cover it up - guess what, one of our fellow comrades can simply take matters into their own hands and kill them. I don't think it'll be a very viable strategy for mafia. Of course if our fellow comrades are just posting shit (not like shit, just shit) then it will be 1) overall detrimental to the game, much more so than previous ones, and 2) they can die very very easily for it.
If it turns out to be the case that inactives will shoot - I volunteer to be the quietest of them all.
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Ace I think your suggested randomized list idea is quite a stupid one. Will it not end up advertising to the Mafia for all to see who is blue? whereas the town will not be able to distinguish between red//blue
All in all dumb and I am suspicious of you for suggesting it.
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Also as to malongo being targeted, he has, by posting to kill chezinu and succeeding, narrowed down his role into one of two categories, either a Townie or CIA agent.
It would be completely non-sensical to kill Malgongo at this stage without at least attempting to determine if he is CIA, just assuming so based on the reasons you have listed Ace is simply not enough. Also I think, as has been suggested, that we should agree to put some mechanism into place that would punish inactivity.
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On March 07 2010 19:43 d3_crescentia wrote:
Some scattered thoughts:
I think I'd rather have Malongo DT-checked today because it's obvious that the most powerful weapon the Mafia have is having the CIA coopt our executions. I don't think CIA would be silly enough to move on Day 1, but that's just an opinion and not a deduction.
I think this whole idea of a random list is good, BUT we need to keep it subject to change depending on what happens during the course of discussion taking into account who's making what arguments. A rough estimate says that we have about 6-7 days if we have a mafia that is 5-6 people. This isn't anywhere near enough time for us to go down the entire list systematically, so it's better to keep a fluid list. Also somewhat tangentially, we need to keep in mind that we don't know how mafia KP is calculated right now.
I like the idea of forcing the most inactive player to vote though I'm not entirely sold on it because I haven't thought it through yet.
My primary argument for using it is that if mafia decide to spam random shit in the forums to cover it up - guess what, one of our fellow comrades can simply take matters into their own hands and kill them. I don't think it'll be a very viable strategy for mafia. Of course if our fellow comrades are just posting shit (not like shit, just shit) then it will be 1) overall detrimental to the game, much more so than previous ones, and 2) they can die very very easily for it.
If it turns out to be the case that inactives will shoot - I volunteer to be the quietest of them all.
O.o you realize that CIA agent is like godfather, so he wouldn't show up as mafia so DT checking malongo at this point is useless.
I think right now we need to set up some order in the town. In normal games we have trouble controlling who to lynch because of the number of stupid votes people make, so give EVERYONE the power to lynch is a pretty scary prospect. I think we need to set up some ground rules so this game doesn't descend into chaos, we need to stick with a plan if we are going to win, not just killing someone at random at the start of the day post. There needs to be some sort of punishment for killing. By shooting someone without town consensus at the beginning of the day, you are really hurting the town by wasting its "lynch". If you shoot someone before the town agrees on who should be shot, and who is doing the shooting, you will be killed yourself. We need organization in this town, not random killings. Plus you don't have to worry about the mafia shooting back after town consesnsus has been reached unless they are a CIA agent. I can understand Malongo's first kill, because Chezinu could strike back, but from now on that kind of thing SHOULD NOT happen. The town needs to have some time during the day to decide before someone posts: execute ____
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Also just to further outline the idiocy of Aces claim, if Malongo really was the CIA, do you honestly believe he would bring attention to himself in this way?
Of course its possible and certainly could be used as a double bluff relying on people assuming that he would not, but that seems like a stretch.
If this game had vote lynching I'd be bolding your name right now Ace...
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On March 07 2010 21:27 XeliN wrote:
It would be completely non-sensical to kill Malgongo at this stage without at least attempting to determine if he is CIA, just assuming so based on the reasons you have listed Ace is simply not enough.
Reading over the roles more carefully it seems, like Godfathers, CIA Agents can appear to be shown as whatever role they wish so I take back the above aspect of my post as it seems the only "attempting to determine if he is CIA" that we can do would be on analysis of his posts//activity and not a DT check.
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EPT
