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MURICA15980 Posts
On August 05 2012 07:28 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 06:45 Klogon wrote:On August 05 2012 06:41 Rebs wrote:On August 05 2012 06:27 phosphorylation wrote:On August 05 2012 06:15 TheSwedishFan wrote: Lol, what an upset. How could they lose to a shitty team like south korea... Well they've had a good night after all the gold medals, they cant have it all. hurr durr, so where's europe in this competition? brazil, mexico, japan, korea japan knocking out spain and korea knocking out swiss and UK. I hate to break it to you, but outside team GB (and just this year for them to, home team and all) They dont really care, they rarely have. If they did well in the past it was mostly because the rest of the competition was god aweful. Hey guys, look, we have a mind reader over here. Clearly Spain didn't care when they rushed the referee and pushed him around and got tons of yellows when they lost. And clearly Sturridge looked like he didn't give a fuck when he missed that penalty, right? Athletes don't get to where they are by not wanting to compete. Fans might not care as much, but when athletes step into a stadium full of 70k people in a competitive match, they are trying their best. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. They didn't become that good by not being ridiculous competitive people by nature. I think most football fans recognize that these teams aren't the very best that GB and Spain can put out, but they are still pretty stacked and you can count on it that they are giving 100% when they step out onto the field. I didnt say the athletes involved didnt want to compete. Everyone involved wants to play to win. But do you really believe that as far as preparation and hype is concerned the results matter to them that much , the players will be disappointed sure. but the national interest and federation backing is a huge part of how well a team does when it goes into a tournament. Its effectively a junior tournament. The european teams rarely dominate at that level its a pretty even field. And no I dont believe the players on european teams work as hard. They might lay it all out on the pitch at crunch time but the stark reduction in quality on the pitch is a direct result of failings of it. Something that they do not let happen at the top tier. And this isnt anything new. Its always been that way in the Olympics. They arent taken as seriously, but feel free to believe what you want.
So we can agree on this: the players and coaches tried their best, but the old, rich, white men in suits watching from their glass and steel high rises didn't care as much so didn't prep the team as much. I'm okay with that.
But if you honestly believe kids who are under-23 playing in their first starting position in a major tournament don't see it as an opportunity to gain a bigger contract and more playing time in their club teams, perhaps you need to try to see these things from an individual "non-star" athlete's perspective. A Neymar already has it made. A guy like Cleverly? Still a ton to prove and this is a great opportunity to gain attention and more playing time next season with United.
Like I said: most of these young players haven't gotten to where they have without trying to be the best all the time and using every opportunity the impress whichever scout might be watching. These aren't old veterans with World Cup Titles and countless Premierships titles (okay, maybe Ryan Giggs lol). They are hungry and want more and have shit to prove.
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On August 05 2012 07:35 Klogon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:28 Rebs wrote:On August 05 2012 06:45 Klogon wrote:On August 05 2012 06:41 Rebs wrote:On August 05 2012 06:27 phosphorylation wrote:On August 05 2012 06:15 TheSwedishFan wrote: Lol, what an upset. How could they lose to a shitty team like south korea... Well they've had a good night after all the gold medals, they cant have it all. hurr durr, so where's europe in this competition? brazil, mexico, japan, korea japan knocking out spain and korea knocking out swiss and UK. I hate to break it to you, but outside team GB (and just this year for them to, home team and all) They dont really care, they rarely have. If they did well in the past it was mostly because the rest of the competition was god aweful. Hey guys, look, we have a mind reader over here. Clearly Spain didn't care when they rushed the referee and pushed him around and got tons of yellows when they lost. And clearly Sturridge looked like he didn't give a fuck when he missed that penalty, right? Athletes don't get to where they are by not wanting to compete. Fans might not care as much, but when athletes step into a stadium full of 70k people in a competitive match, they are trying their best. You're kidding yourself if you think otherwise. They didn't become that good by not being ridiculous competitive people by nature. I think most football fans recognize that these teams aren't the very best that GB and Spain can put out, but they are still pretty stacked and you can count on it that they are giving 100% when they step out onto the field. I didnt say the athletes involved didnt want to compete. Everyone involved wants to play to win. But do you really believe that as far as preparation and hype is concerned the results matter to them that much , the players will be disappointed sure. but the national interest and federation backing is a huge part of how well a team does when it goes into a tournament. Its effectively a junior tournament. The european teams rarely dominate at that level its a pretty even field. And no I dont believe the players on european teams work as hard. They might lay it all out on the pitch at crunch time but the stark reduction in quality on the pitch is a direct result of failings of it. Something that they do not let happen at the top tier. And this isnt anything new. Its always been that way in the Olympics. They arent taken as seriously, but feel free to believe what you want. So we can agree on this: the players and coaches tried their best, but the old, rich, white men in suits watching from their glass and steel high rises didn't care as much so didn't prep the team as much. I'm okay with that. But if you honestly believe kids who are under-23 playing in their first starting position in a major tournament don't see it as an opportunity to gain a bigger contract and more playing time in their club teams, perhaps you need to try to see these things from an individual "non-star" athlete's perspective perspective. A Neymar already has it made. A guy like Cleverly? Still a ton to prove and this is a great opportunity to gain attention and more playing time next season with United.
Nope, when has performing well in the Olympics ever, I mean ever resulted in a player being given mad creds ? Never no club will heavily read into olympic performance. Club level football and poorly organized national teams are completely different playing fields. it might put you on a bit of a radar but frankly if your good enough you will already have been on it and your club or serious national team performance in a major tournament (should you be involved) will be the major factors.
That having been said, I dont believe that they arent seeing at as an oppurtunity. Why not ? Everytime you step on a football pitch as a kid you want to impress. That is without question. But its not as easy as "I will go on the pitch and play my best." And I dont think the team performing poorly will in anyway affect the prospects of the kids on the Spanish team or team GB.
Now if it was Brazil or last Olympics Argentina (which was stacked) getting knocked out in the groups. Then they'd have a problem because they really went for it.
I think Cleverly's play in the premier league in his short time before injury far outweighed anything he might have done in this tournament. And he was really really good. What do you think matters to Fergie?
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How can S.Korea U23 beat GB U23, whose training for youngsters and such is by far the best in the world.??
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MURICA15980 Posts
This is you trying to win the argument for the sake of trying to win it.
If you're young, hungry, and still have a ton to prove, you work your ass off and try to boost your resume however possible. You can bet your ass off NBA #1 draft pick Anthony Davis tries his hardest when he gets playing time in the Olympics, even though most NBA fans consider NBA games to matter more. When you're young and hungry, you're out there with something to prove. I think it'd be more surprising if it was the opposite.
In terms of a player making headlines in the Olympics, I did not follow soccer as closely back then, but I do remember Carlos Tevez making a break out performance for Argentina back in the Olympics many years ago when he was still playing in Argentina. I have a feeling that really strong performance when he was young helped him through confidence, hype, marketing, etc, but I have no idea as I don't know if the media was already hyping him before the tournament.
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You just keep repeating that players are young and hungry and want to try hard. Im not disputing that, Im just saying its not that simple when it comes to a teams performance. Also I didnt mention anything about Anthony Davis and frankly I dont care how well he does. Its the NBA where his real test lies anyway, playing well in a stacked team is about as creditworthy as beating highschoolers. But thats a digression I dont care about and more an opinion because frnakly i wouldnt know to much. Although ofcourse no effort will be spared in hyping that up.
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On August 05 2012 07:43 Klogon wrote: This is you trying to win the argument for the sake of trying to win it.
If you're young, hungry, and still have a ton to prove, you work your ass off and try to boost your resume however possible. You can bet your ass off NBA #1 draft pick Anthony Davis tries his hardest when he gets playing time in the Olympics, even though most NBA fans consider NBA games to matter more. When you're young and hungry, you're out there with something to prove. I think it'd be more surprising if it was the opposite.
In terms of a player making headlines in the Olympics, I did not follow soccer as closely back then, but I do remember Carlos Tevez making a break out performance for Argentina back in the Olympics many years ago when he was still playing in Argentina. I have a feeling that really strong performance when he was young helped him through confidence, hype, marketing, etc, but I have no idea as I don't know if the media was already hyping him before the tournament.
He went to Corinthians after beasting it up for years at Boca and then to West Ham (and it was his time at West Ham that got him the big transfers). Yes massive hype for an olympic performance. And tbh Tevez's career has been a plethora of transfer nightmares for the clubs involved.
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MURICA15980 Posts
So if Cleverly stomped out the entire midfield, dominated every game Zidane style, pummeled in goals, had sublime assists, etc - are you saying that wouldn't help his career at all? If so, we're done. It was nice debating with you.
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On August 05 2012 07:50 Klogon wrote: So if Cleverly stomped out the entire midfield, dominated every game Zidane style, pummeled in goals, had sublime assists, etc - are you saying that wouldn't help his career at all? If so, we're done. It was nice debating with you.
it would. But he didnt. And theres a reason for that, which isnt just limited to effort on the pitch. And those failings off the pitch, conditioning, squad training, mental prep, strategy, trust and coordination among others is what determines whether a performance is taken seriously or not. (please dont take this as a specific I mean generally any one of those could be lacking for any team at a particular point.)
When those things come together. Teams play well. And when teams play well after strong preparation, then people take notice. Why is that so hard to understand?
People kept hyping all this Spain and Brazil talk (and Brazil havent even been that good tbh, theyve been running on individuals) before the event and I didnt say anything, because well who cares. But I wasnt so sure taking into account the history of the even that they would just waltz past everyone. It hasnt happened before. Why would it happen now unless some serious changes were made, which clearly wasnt the case.
Team GB was lackluster they have the players to play fantastically but their midfield was paper thin. No one dropped to take a pass from the defenders and make things happen regularly out of fear of losing it. These are things that get worked on outside 90 mins and it doesnt matter how talented you are if your not well prepared its not going to work unless the other teams are just atrocious.
The reason the failings wont hurt the players to much (cept maybe GB and only in the media, not amongst clubs) to much either is because their clubs know theyre usually setup to fail in the national team.
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What is with the discussion? GB got out played in midfield. Koo Ki combo was too much for them. Despite getting welfare penalty shots, still loses... and Korea had several other chances to score. Before anybody calls it blatant handball, look at it in slow mo, where else would you put your arm?
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MURICA15980 Posts
On August 05 2012 07:52 Rebs wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:50 Klogon wrote: So if Cleverly stomped out the entire midfield, dominated every game Zidane style, pummeled in goals, had sublime assists, etc - are you saying that wouldn't help his career at all? If so, we're done. It was nice debating with you. it would. But he didnt. And theres a reason for that, which isnt just limited to effort on the pitch. And those failings off the pitch, conditioning, squad training, mental prep, strategy among others is what determines whether a performance is taken seriously or not. Why is that so hard to understand? People kept hyping all this Spain and Brazil talk (and Brazil havent even been that good tbh, theyve been running on individuals) before the event and I didnt say anything, because well who cares. But I wasnt so sure taking into account the history of the even that they would just waltz past everyone. It hasnt happened before. Why would it now unless some serious changes were made, which clearly wasnt the case. Team GB was lackluster they have the players to play fantastically but their midfield was paper thin. No one dropped to take a pass from the defenders and make things happen regularly out of fear of losing it. These are things that get worked on outside 90 mins and it doesnt matter how talented you are if your not well prepared its not going to work unless the other teams are just atrocious.
I think we're arguing past each other a little bit right now because I largely agree with you that level of prep does matter from an overall perspective. Like how much support you get from your club boss to train for this, how many days and resources your national federation got to prepare the team, etc. It'd be ignorant to say these things do not matter as it is all necessary support to have a team firing at 100%. However, my main point is that to say that the players and coaches who have careers on the line are not trying their best is false. Giggs probably gives less of a shit than the younger players.
I bolded the part of your quote because that is exactly my point. If he had, he'd break out not only in the public eye, but in confidence, etc. And he knows that. Why wouldn't he take that opportunity then and go for it? Young players will push themselves for a shot at a breakout performance like that. They are less worried about the failure and more concerned about the small chance of shining.
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On August 05 2012 08:00 ExceeD_DreaM wrote: What is with the discussion? GB got out played in midfield. Koo Ki combo was too much for them. Despite getting welfare penalty shots, still loses... and Korea had several other chances to score. Before anybody calls it blatant handball, look at it in slow mo, where else would you put your arm?
not on the ground to block the path of the ball
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On August 05 2012 08:02 Klogon wrote:Show nested quote +On August 05 2012 07:52 Rebs wrote:On August 05 2012 07:50 Klogon wrote: So if Cleverly stomped out the entire midfield, dominated every game Zidane style, pummeled in goals, had sublime assists, etc - are you saying that wouldn't help his career at all? If so, we're done. It was nice debating with you. it would. But he didnt. And theres a reason for that, which isnt just limited to effort on the pitch. And those failings off the pitch, conditioning, squad training, mental prep, strategy among others is what determines whether a performance is taken seriously or not. Why is that so hard to understand? People kept hyping all this Spain and Brazil talk (and Brazil havent even been that good tbh, theyve been running on individuals) before the event and I didnt say anything, because well who cares. But I wasnt so sure taking into account the history of the even that they would just waltz past everyone. It hasnt happened before. Why would it now unless some serious changes were made, which clearly wasnt the case. Team GB was lackluster they have the players to play fantastically but their midfield was paper thin. No one dropped to take a pass from the defenders and make things happen regularly out of fear of losing it. These are things that get worked on outside 90 mins and it doesnt matter how talented you are if your not well prepared its not going to work unless the other teams are just atrocious. I think we're arguing past each other a little bit right now because I largely agree with you that level of prep does matter from an overall perspective. Like how much support you get from your club boss to train for this, how many days and resources your national federation got to prepare the team, etc. It'd be ignorant to say these things do not matter as it is all necessary support to have a team firing at 100%. However, my main point is that to say that the players and coaches who have careers on the line are not trying their best is false. Giggs probably gives less of a shit than the younger players. I bolded the part of your quote because that is exactly my point. If he had, he'd break out not only in the public eye, but in confidence, etc. And he knows that. Why wouldn't he take that opportunity then and go for it? Young players will push themselves for a shot at a breakout performance like that.
yea but no amount of pushing will provide that performance without all those factors involved. Its literally swimming against the tide. Realistically without experience and the aforementioned factors as "teams" they arent really any better than the others in the olympics. Smaller teams try a little harder and the gaps closed. And most footballers are pretty smart. They know how good they are as individuals and as teams relative to everyone else.
The hypothetical situation where Cleverly stomps every midfield that faces up to him was never going to happen. And everyone kinda knew that from the first game they played, even if they didnt say it. And honestly if he genuinely believed that, as well as he did play this tournament, against SK he was incredibly passive. I dont want to say it as a definite but maybe they really didnt believe that it was worth it to take the game over. I think Keown and Savage had something to say about that aswell but I wasnt really listening with all the other events going on. Certainly didnt look like it.
And so therefore. No one takes it seriously.
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On August 05 2012 08:11 Sated wrote: Rebs, if any of the players at the games are being scouted by any club at any level then it is going to be important for their career to do well. Scouts can only report on what they see from a player, and if they see that a player doesn't try every game then what use is that to a club? Players aren't stupid about these sorts of things so they're going to try their best.
You have no idea what your talking about as usual. I never at any point argued that the players arent giving it all on the pitch. atleast not in terms of raw effort. I did hint there is a possibility somewhere of not taking a game over. Obviously the conversation is to dense for you. But we already know that.
The point is. Them not doing well will not concern any clubs. And it has absolutely nothing, nothing to do with effort.
edit: oh and vice versa for a team performing well. Unless the olympics becomes a bonafide high level tournament. This one certainly isnt. The womens is though.
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This argument about olympics and world cup is like saying winning the ncaa championship doesnt matter because its not an nba championship lol.
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Lol this argument started because someone ignorant enough said outside of GB no one cares about Olympic soccer.
Yea okay...
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Well olympic soccer is really nothing compared to the major tournaments. Ofc the players are still fighting for their country as there is medals for share. But not many gives value to olympic soccer other than that.
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On August 05 2012 08:46 Juissi wrote: Well olympic soccer is really nothing compared to the major tournaments. Ofc the players are still fighting for their country as there is medals for share. But not many gives value to olympic soccer other than that. I think on the men's side it's the kind of event you care about when you win a medal but not really otherwise. I mean, I'm sure Argentinian fans where really happy about winning 2004 and 2008, for example. But outside of Argentina I doubt too many people really cared.
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Give up on Rebs.
His favourite team is probably out or was never in the Olympics. So he decided that this competition is worth nothing.
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