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Join the LiquidLegends 2017 Worlds Pick'em Group!
Ban bets!!Ban bets will continue for the duration of Worlds. You can place bet at any phase of Worlds; on individual games, series, whatever your heart desires. Bans will be enacted the day after Worlds ends, to ensure everyone can still post on LL while Worlds is ongoing. glhf~ - Winners in bold- better, better's win condition, bettee [ban duration for loser]- Yorbon, EDG fails to make it out of groups, vs DarkCore [1 week] - Sleight, Fnatic doesn't make it out of groups, vs AlterKot [2:1 weeks] - Apex, Gigabyte getting out of groups as a 1st place seed + TSM will finish 1st in their groups + Samsung will fail to qualify from their group + C9 will get out of their groups, vs JimmiC [1 week] - geript, Korean teams will win a combined 17 or more games in Groups, vs Gahlo [1 month] - geript, NA teams will win a combined 7 or less games in Groups, vs Torchise [1 month] - zer0das, SKT doesn't win Worlds, vs no one [1 year] - Zato-1, NA teams combined wins will be greater than or equal to EU teams combined wins, vs Yorbon [1 month] |
On October 13 2017 03:44 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2017 03:39 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 02:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 13 2017 02:26 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 02:03 Numy wrote:On October 13 2017 01:56 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 01:43 Numy wrote:
It should be because GAM had faster game time which net them the bye in tiebreaker. Doesn't make sense if the team with the bye finishes 4th instead of 3rd. The fact that it wasn't a 3 team round robin was dumb. Riot has always sacrificed format for easy viewability. So it's perfectly in line with their stance to force a tiebreaker like this. Don't really see why people getting upset. The chance to be upset was before worlds even started to get them to make a competitive worlds. We lucky they didn't just use time to decide it all honestly. I didn't know they went with yet another shit tiebreaker system, because as a fan I shouldn't have to know "What nonsense are they going to do if there's a 3way tie for 2nd?" Whether I know before or now doesn't make Riot's bad decision okay or above criticism. By the time the ruleset for Worlds was done, it was too late to get it changed anyway. Besides, Riot doesn't care, otherwise they wouldn't have made that tiebreaker setup in the first place. TIL that it actually matters who is 3rd and 4th, because it affects the prize money. Using game time is deeply unsatisfying. But the other two proposed changes here are even worse. A three-way round robin does not guarantee you a result and could go on forever. And playing an additional, ultra sad match between IMT and GAM is pathetic and will never happen. I honestly don't think it'd be so bad if they just randomly drew who got the bye. But game time is the known tiebreaker and has been used for a few seasons now, and also has the least distorting effect on the game compared to say, # of kills. So if the teams know about it ahead of time, they can't complain it's unfair. Prize money, people's pickems, who has the chance to get out of the group. Lots of things. Gives even more credence do use the Champions group stage Bo2 format. More incrementality will produce cleaner rankings. I don't see how the 3rd-4th place tiebreaker matters for who gets out of the group. And I said "actually matters", which is why I excluded pick'ems. No one cares about your pickem, sorry. Also you mean Champions League Bo2? Because a Bo2 based on aggregate goals obviously doesn't work in League so I don't know how that would work here either.
I'm talking about proper tiebreaker rules, not "this team gets a bye and special privilege because of nonsense."
I'm talking about OGN Champions. Mis-remembered it as a double round robin Bo2.
My pickem wasn't incredibly adversely affected by this. I don't look at everything as being about me, sorry.
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Anyone else expecting RNG to fail tomorrow?
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Yup. Samsung coming back with avengence.
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Best way to fix 3rd 4th tiebreaker is to make the payout the same, you're both eliminated at the same time.
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The thing is Riot doesn't even bother to try make the group schedule fair but having teams play at same time when elimination is at stake or not have the first seed play last. Why would you intentionally schedule LZ with the last few games knowing full well they will be through regardless. This just causes so many potential issues.
Even the fact that worlds payout changes depending on placements is a bit crazy if you think about it. It's a format designed so that placements outside of the winner are as arbitrary as possible while maintaining just enough sanity to not turn people off. So why then is payout linked to that?
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GrandInquisitor
New York City13113 Posts
On October 13 2017 03:52 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2017 03:44 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 13 2017 03:39 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 02:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 13 2017 02:26 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 02:03 Numy wrote:On October 13 2017 01:56 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 01:43 Numy wrote:
It should be because GAM had faster game time which net them the bye in tiebreaker. Doesn't make sense if the team with the bye finishes 4th instead of 3rd. The fact that it wasn't a 3 team round robin was dumb. Riot has always sacrificed format for easy viewability. So it's perfectly in line with their stance to force a tiebreaker like this. Don't really see why people getting upset. The chance to be upset was before worlds even started to get them to make a competitive worlds. We lucky they didn't just use time to decide it all honestly. I didn't know they went with yet another shit tiebreaker system, because as a fan I shouldn't have to know "What nonsense are they going to do if there's a 3way tie for 2nd?" Whether I know before or now doesn't make Riot's bad decision okay or above criticism. By the time the ruleset for Worlds was done, it was too late to get it changed anyway. Besides, Riot doesn't care, otherwise they wouldn't have made that tiebreaker setup in the first place. TIL that it actually matters who is 3rd and 4th, because it affects the prize money. Using game time is deeply unsatisfying. But the other two proposed changes here are even worse. A three-way round robin does not guarantee you a result and could go on forever. And playing an additional, ultra sad match between IMT and GAM is pathetic and will never happen. I honestly don't think it'd be so bad if they just randomly drew who got the bye. But game time is the known tiebreaker and has been used for a few seasons now, and also has the least distorting effect on the game compared to say, # of kills. So if the teams know about it ahead of time, they can't complain it's unfair. Prize money, people's pickems, who has the chance to get out of the group. Lots of things. Gives even more credence do use the Champions group stage Bo2 format. More incrementality will produce cleaner rankings. I don't see how the 3rd-4th place tiebreaker matters for who gets out of the group. And I said "actually matters", which is why I excluded pick'ems. No one cares about your pickem, sorry. Also you mean Champions League Bo2? Because a Bo2 based on aggregate goals obviously doesn't work in League so I don't know how that would work here either. I'm talking about proper tiebreaker rules, not "this team gets a bye and special privilege because of nonsense." I'm talking about OGN Champions. Mis-remembered it as a double round robin Bo2. My pickem wasn't incredibly adversely affected by this. I don't look at everything as being about me, sorry.
I mean, I thought we were talking about distinguishing 3rd and 4th, which is a hard question, and apparently relevant for for prize money for reasons I don't know, since they should just be the same. But I just thought it was funny because I was like, "3rd and 4th tiebreaker doesn't matter except for prize money", and you were like NO WAIT ACTUALLY it matters for prize money, pickems, and advancement, which is basically the same thing I said.
But the tiebreaker procedure to determined 2nd is fine. It's way better than a 3-way RR. People get so hung up on these obscure issues of competitive integrity. Not everything has to be Bo24 double elimination. I think people get crazy hung up on "cheese" and "bad luck" deciding Bo1 ... but when was the last time, for example, an NA team ever managed to cheese a win against SKT? Like I legit cannot remember an instance where a truly superior team got fucked by the format against an inferior team.
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On October 13 2017 05:07 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2017 03:52 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 03:44 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 13 2017 03:39 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 02:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 13 2017 02:26 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 02:03 Numy wrote:On October 13 2017 01:56 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 01:43 Numy wrote:
It should be because GAM had faster game time which net them the bye in tiebreaker. Doesn't make sense if the team with the bye finishes 4th instead of 3rd. The fact that it wasn't a 3 team round robin was dumb. Riot has always sacrificed format for easy viewability. So it's perfectly in line with their stance to force a tiebreaker like this. Don't really see why people getting upset. The chance to be upset was before worlds even started to get them to make a competitive worlds. We lucky they didn't just use time to decide it all honestly. I didn't know they went with yet another shit tiebreaker system, because as a fan I shouldn't have to know "What nonsense are they going to do if there's a 3way tie for 2nd?" Whether I know before or now doesn't make Riot's bad decision okay or above criticism. By the time the ruleset for Worlds was done, it was too late to get it changed anyway. Besides, Riot doesn't care, otherwise they wouldn't have made that tiebreaker setup in the first place. TIL that it actually matters who is 3rd and 4th, because it affects the prize money. Using game time is deeply unsatisfying. But the other two proposed changes here are even worse. A three-way round robin does not guarantee you a result and could go on forever. And playing an additional, ultra sad match between IMT and GAM is pathetic and will never happen. I honestly don't think it'd be so bad if they just randomly drew who got the bye. But game time is the known tiebreaker and has been used for a few seasons now, and also has the least distorting effect on the game compared to say, # of kills. So if the teams know about it ahead of time, they can't complain it's unfair. Prize money, people's pickems, who has the chance to get out of the group. Lots of things. Gives even more credence do use the Champions group stage Bo2 format. More incrementality will produce cleaner rankings. I don't see how the 3rd-4th place tiebreaker matters for who gets out of the group. And I said "actually matters", which is why I excluded pick'ems. No one cares about your pickem, sorry. Also you mean Champions League Bo2? Because a Bo2 based on aggregate goals obviously doesn't work in League so I don't know how that would work here either. I'm talking about proper tiebreaker rules, not "this team gets a bye and special privilege because of nonsense." I'm talking about OGN Champions. Mis-remembered it as a double round robin Bo2. My pickem wasn't incredibly adversely affected by this. I don't look at everything as being about me, sorry. I mean, I thought we were talking about distinguishing 3rd and 4th, which is a hard question, and apparently relevant for for prize money for reasons I don't know, since they should just be the same. But I just thought it was funny because I was like, "3rd and 4th tiebreaker doesn't matter except for prize money", and you were like NO WAIT ACTUALLY it matters for prize money, pickems, and advancement, which is basically the same thing I said. But the tiebreaker procedure to determined 2nd is fine. It's way better than a 3-way RR. People get so hung up on these obscure issues of competitive integrity. Not everything has to be Bo24 double elimination. I think people get crazy hung up on "cheese" and "bad luck" deciding Bo1 ... but when was the last time, for example, an NA team ever managed to cheese a win against SKT? Like I legit cannot remember an instance where a truly superior team got fucked by the format against an inferior team.
I don't know if you're aware of this, but people on the internet can agree and then expound upon your point.
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I expect nothing, and I'm still disappointed.
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I expect SSG to do well, even win against RNG and force a tie breaker, but then lose the second game. Uzi is gonna slay me some Koreans tomorrow.
Or maybe G2 is going to also magically make it out of groups.
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Missed most of the games yesterday. Which were the best?
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GAM vs IMT had a blue Kayn not being a dead weight
FNC vs IMT was very even but also a bit of a fiesta
Didn't watch GAM vs LZ but the stats say it might be good.
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On October 13 2017 03:44 GrandInquisitor wrote:Show nested quote +On October 13 2017 03:39 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 02:55 GrandInquisitor wrote:On October 13 2017 02:26 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 02:03 Numy wrote:On October 13 2017 01:56 Gahlo wrote:On October 13 2017 01:43 Numy wrote:
It should be because GAM had faster game time which net them the bye in tiebreaker. Doesn't make sense if the team with the bye finishes 4th instead of 3rd. The fact that it wasn't a 3 team round robin was dumb. Riot has always sacrificed format for easy viewability. So it's perfectly in line with their stance to force a tiebreaker like this. Don't really see why people getting upset. The chance to be upset was before worlds even started to get them to make a competitive worlds. We lucky they didn't just use time to decide it all honestly. I didn't know they went with yet another shit tiebreaker system, because as a fan I shouldn't have to know "What nonsense are they going to do if there's a 3way tie for 2nd?" Whether I know before or now doesn't make Riot's bad decision okay or above criticism. By the time the ruleset for Worlds was done, it was too late to get it changed anyway. Besides, Riot doesn't care, otherwise they wouldn't have made that tiebreaker setup in the first place. TIL that it actually matters who is 3rd and 4th, because it affects the prize money. Using game time is deeply unsatisfying. But the other two proposed changes here are even worse. A three-way round robin does not guarantee you a result and could go on forever. And playing an additional, ultra sad match between IMT and GAM is pathetic and will never happen. I honestly don't think it'd be so bad if they just randomly drew who got the bye. But game time is the known tiebreaker and has been used for a few seasons now, and also has the least distorting effect on the game compared to say, # of kills. So if the teams know about it ahead of time, they can't complain it's unfair. Prize money, people's pickems, who has the chance to get out of the group. Lots of things. Gives even more credence do use the Champions group stage Bo2 format. More incrementality will produce cleaner rankings. I don't see how the 3rd-4th place tiebreaker matters for who gets out of the group. And I said "actually matters", which is why I excluded pick'ems. No one cares about your pickem, sorry. Also you mean Champions League Bo2? Because a Bo2 based on aggregate goals obviously doesn't work in League so I don't know how that would work here either.
I am basically the only person who likes Bo2s, or so the internet seems to suggest. 3 pts for 2-0, 1 point for 1-1. Only time I ever watched EU over NA. I don't care about the deciding game on an emotional level. I just like to see someone bring something spicy and then the other team get a chance to react.
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Double Elim would be so much better for groups, but that requires a Bo3 format. It also means 10-15 games per group; right now it's 12-14 (with 14 being highly unlikely and 13 not being uncommon). The reason why Riot chose the format and setup it did is not for ensuring the best teams get out of group. Rather it's designed for ease of scheduling. You can plan for 45-60 minutes per match and almost always run on time. You'll be throw off with the hour long games but can trim the hype and stuff bookending it to get closer to schedule.
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On October 13 2017 09:44 geript wrote:
Double Elim would be so much better for groups, but that requires a Bo3 format. It also means 10-15 games per group; right now it's 12-14 (with 14 being highly unlikely and 13 not being uncommon). The reason why Riot chose the format and setup it did is not for ensuring the best teams get out of group. Rather it's designed for ease of scheduling. You can plan for 45-60 minutes per match and almost always run on time. You'll be throw off with the hour long games but can trim the hype and stuff bookending it to get closer to schedule.
Why would they ever play double elim in a group stage? It's called group stage for a reason.
Everyone plays each other... TWICE. That's more than enough games to secure a spot, if you're good enough to win.
If you hadn't noticed, the best teams ALWAYS make it out of groups, i.e. Korea.
On October 13 2017 08:14 Sent. wrote:
GAM vs IMT had a blue Kayn not being a dead weight
FNC vs IMT was very even but also a bit of a fiesta
Didn't watch GAM vs LZ but the stats say it might be good.
GAM vs LZ is a must see. Awesome game.
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On October 13 2017 07:09 AdsMoFro wrote:
Missed most of the games yesterday. Which were the best?
It should go without saying that GAM games should get watched, but GAM vs Fnatic (not tiebreaker) isn't that exciting unless you like crushed dreams.
GAM vs IMT and GAM vs LZ are fantastic. Fnatic vs IMT is also great for how it ends
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Quikshot is back!!1
The European week two is bretty gud again
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United States37500 Posts
Damn, what a fucking clinic by G2. Solid draft and execution.
Trist looks really good.
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Picks I suspect might be trash, but are getting picked a lot:
Jarvan
Shen
Lulu
Varus
Ori
Ryze (Obviously the Faker Ryze corollary applies)
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On October 13 2017 15:04 cLutZ wrote:
Picks I suspect might be trash, but are getting picked a lot:
Jarvan
Shen
Lulu
Varus
Ori
Ryze (Obviously the Faker Ryze corollary applies)
I don't think Lulu is trash, but she's definitely highly overrated. Still strong, but not S tier. The others look correct, not sure who else I might add.
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why was sven facechecking bush its like his brain turned off
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EPT
