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On October 05 2015 07:33 EsanLOL wrote:
Agree that a lot of C9's success has been largely due to teams sleeping on them and not preparing for them in advance. However, I don't know why people think they only have one strategy. If you're C9 and teams keep letting you win without changing your strategy, why change it? Just because they'e only really played one strategy, that doesn't mean it's all they have.
They showed a lot of interesting picks and strategies in the gauntlet (some good, some bad), and they even had a losing record with Trist comps in the gauntlet, so I dunno. I don't think you can say they only have one comp until someone forces them off it and C9 fails.
It's more about playing siege style/fast push. It's perfect for them, since that strategy hide their weakness. Imagine when Lemon is force on engage champions and Balls is not relevant, because they don't have early gold from towers.
See you in few days when C9 is 6-0 and Zion is doing fine vs Smeb, like ppl where saying he will do few days ago.
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MSI had meaning? That's new to me. Only reason that tournament is even on the radar is because Fnatic proved that they weren't terrible by going 2-3 vs SKT. A small tournament with 1 team from each region doesn't really mean much to the scene, nor does it really mean anything for 95% of other teams. Doesn't really change much about teams needing to play different formats.
Why would you bring it up? One word response doesn't really tell me anything. Is it mean to "end" the discussion somehow?
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On October 05 2015 07:21 wei2coolman wrote:
Pretty much everyone's idea of pro league of legends is fucking bork'd after the first week of Worlds'.
Beside how C9 is currently 3-0 (note: in an arguably weak group without Korean teams), I don't think any of the other scenarios were inconceivable.
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On October 05 2015 07:48 Numy wrote:
MSI had meaning? That's new to me. Only reason that tournament is even on the radar is because Fnatic proved that they weren't terrible by going 2-3 vs SKT. A small tournament with 1 team from each region doesn't really mean much to the scene, nor does it really mean anything for 95% of other teams. Doesn't really change much about teams needing to play different formats.
Why would you bring it up? One word response doesn't really tell me anything. Is it mean to "end" the discussion somehow?
You talking to me? I don't see a point talking to ppl that never saw LGD play outside Worlds and are going crazy, because C9 won 3 bo1's on most random patch ever when they use one strategy and when I'm point out that I'm salty retard.
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On October 05 2015 08:02 orzeu wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 07:48 Numy wrote:
MSI had meaning? That's new to me. Only reason that tournament is even on the radar is because Fnatic proved that they weren't terrible by going 2-3 vs SKT. A small tournament with 1 team from each region doesn't really mean much to the scene, nor does it really mean anything for 95% of other teams. Doesn't really change much about teams needing to play different formats.
Why would you bring it up? One word response doesn't really tell me anything. Is it mean to "end" the discussion somehow? You talking to me? I don't see a point talking to ppl that never saw LGD play outside Worlds and are going crazy, because C9 won 3 bo1's on most random patch ever when they use one strategy and when I'm point out that I'm salty retard.
You are coming across as salty though.
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On October 05 2015 07:55 Sufficiency wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 07:21 wei2coolman wrote:
Pretty much everyone's idea of pro league of legends is fucking bork'd after the first week of Worlds'. Beside how C9 is currently 3-0 (note: in an arguably weak group without Korean teams), I don't think any of the other scenarios were inconceivable.
Idk. LGD going 0-3 and TSM winning a game were both pretty inconceivable. In order of likelihood, I'd have ranked TSM winning a game, then C9 going 3-0 then LGD going 0-3.
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On October 05 2015 08:18 geript wrote:Show nested quote +On October 05 2015 07:55 Sufficiency wrote:On October 05 2015 07:21 wei2coolman wrote:
Pretty much everyone's idea of pro league of legends is fucking bork'd after the first week of Worlds'. Beside how C9 is currently 3-0 (note: in an arguably weak group without Korean teams), I don't think any of the other scenarios were inconceivable. Idk. LGD going 0-3 and TSM winning a game were both pretty inconceivable. In order of likelihood, I'd have ranked TSM winning a game, then C9 going 3-0 then LGD going 0-3.
I think LGD was more of a question mark coming in. They had never competed internationally and their coach just left due to internal issues.
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France12883 Posts
Before the LGD vs TSN game, the casters were saying that LGD workroom (not sure of the right word sorry) was very loud, people arguing and screaming, after the lose vs KT.
This plus the Acorn interview, it will be very hard for them to recover in so few days but maybe?
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On October 05 2015 08:37 Poopi wrote:
Before the LGD vs TSN game, the casters were saying that LGD workroom (not sure of the right word sorry) was very loud, people arguing and screaming, after the lose vs KT.
This plus the Acorn interview, it will be very hard for them to recover in so few days but maybe? Really? That doesn't bode well. Was this on the english or french stream?
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I'd say biggest upset thus far is just relative strength of regions. Consensus opinion seemed to be that 2 western teams would make it out of group stages: CLG on account of easy group and Fnatic on account of actually being good, CLG would be knocked out on quarters, Fnatic MAYBE could advance to semis but no farther. Some were even predicting no western teams would make it out of groups at all.
The way it's looking, 3 western teams are very likely to advance right now: CLG on account of easy group, C9 and OG on account of looking pretty good. Fnatic has best chance of advancing out of group B besides C9 IMO, TSM has a nonzero chance of overtaking KT in group D, and even though mathematically H2K are still very much in the running in group C, I count them as dead in the water. All in all, I'm expecting 4 western teams to make it out of groups: CLG, C9, Fnatic, OG- alongside 4 asian teams, KOO, SKT, EDG & KT. You can certainly argue about the number of western teams that will make it out, and also argue as to why they've had this level of performance; maybe Chinese teams besides EDG are slumping or failing to adapt to the patch, maybe the western teams have just had lucky bo1 results thus far, or maybe western teams really are close to Korea's level and above China's level. What you can't argue with is the results- that western teams have greatly exceeded expectations so far.
My own analysis is that games look messy and low quality as a direct result of relatively even games on a brawly, juggernaut-dominated patch; if the patch was more about engage vs. disengage, or about split-pushing, or if the strength disparity of the teams was greater, games would look a lot cleaner overall. But clean games =/= high level games, and messy games full of fighting aren't necessarily low-level; heck, most of the time China's been considered a strong region, their messy, action-packed playstyle was considered a feature, not a drawback.
Korea is currently looking like the strongest region overall, with all of their teams having more wins than losses- and if SKT really is far and away the best Korean team, they're looking like the team to beat.
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On October 05 2015 08:46 Zato-1 wrote:
I'd say biggest upset thus far is just relative strength of regions. Consensus opinion seemed to be that 2 western teams would make it out of group stages: CLG on account of easy group and Fnatic on account of actually being good, CLG would be knocked out on quarters, Fnatic MAYBE could advance to semis but no farther. Some were even predicting no western teams would make it out of groups at all.
The way it's looking, 3 western teams are very likely to advance right now: CLG on account of easy group, C9 and OG on account of looking pretty good. Fnatic has best chance of advancing out of group B besides C9 IMO, TSM has a nonzero chance of overtaking KT in group D, and even though mathematically H2K are still very much in the running in group C, I count them as dead in the water. All in all, I'm expecting 4 western teams to make it out of groups: CLG, C9, Fnatic, OG- alongside 4 asian teams, KOO, SKT, EDG & KT. You can certainly argue about the number of western teams that will make it out, and also argue as to why they've had this level of performance; maybe Chinese teams besides EDG are slumping or failing to adapt to the patch, maybe the western teams have just had lucky bo1 results thus far, or maybe western teams really are close to Korea's level and above China's level. What you can't argue with is the results- that western teams have greatly exceeded expectations so far.
My own analysis is that games look messy and low quality as a direct result of relatively even games on a brawly, juggernaut-dominated patch; if the patch was more about engage vs. disengage, or about split-pushing, or if the strength disparity of the teams was greater, games would look a lot cleaner overall. But clean games =/= high level games, and messy games full of fighting aren't necessarily low-level; heck, most of the time China's been considered a strong region, their messy, action-packed playstyle was considered a feature, not a drawback.
Korea is currently looking like the strongest region overall, with all of their teams having more wins than losses- and if SKT really is far and away the best Korean team, they're looking like the team to beat.
Actually, the biggest take away from this entire tournament, I hope, is going to be that simply buying top players does not work. Buying an entire team, and having that team keep the same environment it did before, but simply switch sponsors, sure, that works. But what China did does not, because a scene's success in eSports is an entire package, an industry so to speak, not just the sum of a handful of players. And it's not as much about superficial infrastructure - ie "we have coaches" - as it is about gaming culture & less obvious infrastructural differences - ie "our coaches are experienced and stable."
Of course, for this take away to work, we have to see EDG not win, as EDG winning MSI actually took away from the argument as it showed that purchasing top players does work. However, that was then - a few months after the player changes. Now, with Origen out performing Fnatic and C9 at the top of their group, the argument is swinging the other way - ie Korean talent is a lot less useful than people think.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it's also interesting to note that this season is the most exposure china as a region has had in terms of international scrims. they learn some things, and more importantly, others learn about their tendencies and deficiencies. the aggression stuff they pull could surprise some teams first time around but with more games played they'll get figured out.
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Well, weird things happen when you get to play teams long enough. OG for example, are very difficult to play against for the first time because nobody else plays like them. There isn't a single team that can mimic OG's style.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
origen is pretty eu. they just wing it at b/p.
chinese teams though have some deficiencies like vision that may become more exploited when teams study them more.
then again we see chinese teams committing a lot of unforced errors so maybe they are just sandbagging.
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some interesting translations of the korean casters on reddit
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/3ngg8i/spoiler_korean_casters_opinions_day_4/
Seems they're pretty respectful of the western teams and know how to recognize the good plays along with the misplays.
samples:
KT vs Origen
+ Show Spoiler +(21:19) DongJun Kim: fiora has bf sword.
Cpt Jack: that means fiora is just going to split, but i don't think he can win olaf.
this might cause both tf and fiora to defend olaf.
CloudTemplar: kt is getting kog big slowly while origen is playing frentically all over the map.
(23:00 - baron) CloudTemplar: they were frantically playing everywhere and they got baron.
Kim: the whole game has been hard for origen, but they didn't get shaken up. Very impressive.
(24:10) CloudTemplar: split seems easy, but it's also very difficult. But, origen is doing that so well. Not even Korean team can split push this well.
C9 vs Fnatic
+ Show Spoiler +Kim: PENTAKILL. Balls got penta kill. Balls got penta kill.
CloudTemplar: Does Slamdunk Darius skin have a problem?
YongJoon Jeon: Worlds' 1st pentakill.
CloudTemplar: and even Balls did it. Balls is the one with pentakill.
Cpt Jack: With easy and strong Darius.
(gg) CloudTemplar: yasuo was behind, but he came back. However, c9's shotcalling was too amazing.
Also, for some weird reason, darius ult smashed heads well.
Kim: Q and RRRRRRRR.
Cpt Jack: easy and strong.
Kim: Hai and his shotcalling.
(replay) Cpt Jack: one person died too fast, so darius passive got up.
CloudTemplar: balls' positioning.
Cpt Jack: he carried through positioning.
But, this game was about Hai's baron shotcall. That carried c9.
Kim: this shows why C9 has a lot of Korean fans.
Jeon: Whoever made that tier list from Riot would have to get punished lol.
Cpt Jack: I think it's amazing how they create opportunities themselves and it's something i should learn.
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For some reason the Chinese teams just seem to be choking and arguing so much, and their pick/ban has been so sloppy/bad, that even with how strong the individual players are, that strength isn't carrying them as much as they thought it would against the other teams.
Also, the fact that the other regions seem to have forgotten how to deal/handle the fast push strategy (which is probably the one thing NA does well) is what's carrying the NA teams more than anything else.
EU is being EU, so no surprises here.
Korea being Korea too, again no real surprises.
The Wild Card teams are doing fine, definitely the strongest teams this year.
Also, pretty sure that c9's run is wrecking everyone's gauntlet they made on LoL, rip any chance of us getting Champion Riven skin.
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On October 05 2015 09:38 oneofthem wrote:
origen is pretty eu. they just wing it at b/p.
chinese teams though have some deficiencies like vision that may become more exploited when teams study them more.
then again we see chinese teams committing a lot of unforced errors so maybe they are just sandbagging.
The errors could be the result of several issues. For LGD, a lot of it comes down to communication. For example, in the game against TSM, their bottom forced a fight when the opponent top had teleport but their own did not. That resulted in two kills and threw the entire early game towards TSM. Such communication mistakes are usually the result of poor team structure, and in this case is made worse by the differences in language between the players. IMO, it shows that teams that want to make use of imports have to invest in them in the long term and actually have them learn the new language. There's no way that occurs in only a year's time when you're also practicing and playing on the side, and given how short lived a lot of player careers are, it argues against imports that do not speak the language altogether, and specifically Koreans going to China because Chinese isn't taught the way English is as an international language.
The second cause is poor practice structure - ie not effectively observing and fixing one's mistakes during training. We've all heard of the poor Chinese scrim culture and how teams play overly aggressive during practice. This is fine for when all you want to practice is team fighting, but it leaves a huge ? as to how clean your decision making is. Korean teams are known for trying their best during scrims both on the level of strategy and on the level of team fighting. This helps them improve. The Chinese - and the Koreans in China - may be screwing their own skill over due to the lack of this try hard practice culture. Indeed, the fact that a lot of the top Koreans in China are slowly but surely losing their skill, makes this explanation quite valuable. Take, for example, IG's jungle player. He was known as one of the best jungle players in Korea and one'd think that, after China bought out all the top jungle players in Korea, they'd have the best jungle play in the whole world. And yet, it's obvious they do not, and this shows that just getting a bunch of top players together does not automatically make them skilled.
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All I have to say is RIP my pickems.
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On October 05 2015 09:33 Azarkon wrote:
Of course, for this take away to work, we have to see EDG not win, as EDG winning MSI actually took away from the argument as it showed that purchasing top players does work. However, that was then - a few months after the player changes. Now, with Origen out performing Fnatic and C9 at the top of their group, the argument is swinging the other way - ie Korean talent is a lot less useful than people think.
Especially considering that both C9 and Origen have no Korean players.
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I just feel that LGD honey dicked everyone with their playoff performance.
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EPT
