EPT2015 Worlds Group Stage Day 1-4 Results - Page 320
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
On October 05 2015 19:22 Ysellian wrote: I'm pessimistic about fnatic's chances. It takes 1 death to tilt huni lol and he was a negative influence for fnatic in both matches they lost. Febiven isn't playing perfect either, he is creating advantages for himself but he isn't capitalizing on them at all. Their schedule doesn't favour them either assuming cloud9 remain the strongest team, a loss there and they will be in a horrible position going into the match against iG. Seriously people like you are just making overgeneralizations. Huni's "tilt" has only been a factor in 1 out of his like 60 games on Fnatic. If you don't believe, go watch all of Huni's game from spring and summersplit and tell me with a straight face that he sucked balls after dying/getting behind early game on a consistent basis. Versus C9 it's clear that they were all-in on landing a big yasuo ult, which had a pretty high risk/reward, and he wasn't as succesful as you wanted it to be. But that's not tilt. That's just slightly suboptimal play. Febiven hasn't been as impactful indeed, but he hasn't really been on carry midlaners either, and his Orianna ults has overall been decent. His biggest mistake was getting caught in the last AHQ teamfight. Rekkles has been the best player for Fnatic, and I would like to see him on a bigger carry ADC like Tristana instead of Sivir. Fnatic can still get pretty far in this tournament because unlike IG and LGD there ingameplay hasn't been terrible. | ||
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419
Russian Federation3631 Posts
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Maluk
France987 Posts
On October 05 2015 12:35 DystopiaX wrote: yeah I hope LGD are able to turn it around in their matches next week. Even if other teams take care of their shit and they can't advance anyway, I at least want to see good LGD/get all the people who didn't watch LPL to recognize that they are/were/could be a top class team. The problem with LoL regions being locked is that it is very difficult to judge the actual level of a team. Teams that look good in their region might just be facing no real competition, and this tournament might be showing that the Chinese scene as a whole is nowhere near as strong as everyone thought. Maybe there are people out there who can judge the level of a team "objectively", and say in a vacuum, by watching EDG versus Bangkok Titans for example, "EDG is a top two team in the world", but I certainly can't. All I can see is that EDG is stronger than Bangkok Titans. Before actually knowing if EDG is worth anything I need to see them facing real competition. Which means that LGD, despite looking strong in China, could actually be a bad team that has looked good because it wasn't facing real teams. My opinion is that if you sent LGD back to China right now and made them play in LPL they'd still dominate, the only difference being that they'd lose to EDG. I have a hard time believing that all of a sudden, the team went from godlike to trashtier. Same story for IG, I'm pretty sure that if they were to compete in China in their current form they'd still be top 3. | ||
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las91
United States5080 Posts
On October 05 2015 20:16 Maluk wrote: The problem with LoL regions being locked is that it is very difficult to judge the actual level of a team. Teams that look good in their region might just be facing no real competition, and this tournament might be showing that the Chinese scene as a whole is nowhere near as strong as everyone thought. Maybe there are people out there who can judge the level of a team "objectively", and say in a vacuum, by watching EDG versus Bangkok Titans for example, "EDG is a top two team in the world", but I certainly can't. All I can see is that EDG is stronger than Bangkok Titans. Before actually knowing if EDG is worth anything I need to see them facing real competition. Which means that LGD, despite looking strong in China, could actually be a bad team that has looked good because it wasn't facing real teams. My opinion is that if you sent LGD back to China right now and made them play in LPL they'd still dominate, the only difference being that they'd lose to EDG. I have a hard time believing that all of a sudden, the team went from godlike to trashtier. Same story for IG, I'm pretty sure that if they were to compete in China in their current form they'd still be top 3. You're mirroring how I feel about China right now. Every region was in a pretty isolated vacuum for 10 months this year, it's impossible to know what would happen when actual international competition that is important for significant prize pool is on the line. I do think it's pretty clear that China was massively overestimated by pretty much everyone here and most analysts/coaches etc. EDG doesn't even look that great either, SKT beat them up and their only wins are against BKT (ok) and H2K (little more than ok). I have been completely underwhelmed by both IG and LGD for a number of reasons but specific individual players on each compounded by terrible drafting is just not good enough at a tournament like this. Seems like they just expected to roll everyone and when they can't it's a shock. | ||
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
On October 05 2015 19:35 Hider wrote: Seriously people like you are just making overgeneralizations. Huni's "tilt" has only been a factor in 1 out of his like 60 games on Fnatic. If you don't believe, go watch all of Huni's game from spring and summersplit and tell me with a straight face that he sucked balls after dying/getting behind early game on a consistent basis. Versus C9 it's clear that they were all-in on landing a big yasuo ult, which had a pretty high risk/reward, and he wasn't as succesful as you wanted it to be. But that's not tilt. That's just slightly suboptimal play. Febiven hasn't been as impactful indeed, but he hasn't really been on carry midlaners either, and his Orianna ults has overall been decent. His biggest mistake was getting caught in the last AHQ teamfight. Rekkles has been the best player for Fnatic, and I would like to see him on a bigger carry ADC like Tristana instead of Sivir. Fnatic can still get pretty far in this tournament because unlike IG and LGD there ingameplay hasn't been terrible. I was only joking when I said that, hence the "lol". It hasn't been a factor all split, Ive never seen Huni like this but it happened and it takes a lot of mental strength to recover. He is up against zztai and febiven is up against rookie, it really isnt weird for both of them to lose their lane. Fnatic are still in this but it's not looking good. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
On October 05 2015 21:00 Ysellian wrote: I was only joking when I said that, hence the "lol". It hasn't been a factor all split, Ive never seen Huni like this but it happened and it takes a lot of mental strength to recover. He is up against zztai and febiven is up against rookie, it really isnt weird for both of them to lose their lane. Fnatic are still in this but it's not looking good. I rewatched the C9 vs FNC game and I think Fnatic got very heavily outstrategized during the P/B-phase and during the early midgame. First of, the issue with picking Yasuo vs Darius is that he cannot push deep down, but has to farm on the safe side. But even if he is farming under tower he can still be tower in a 1v2 vs Darius. That's problematic as he then needs jungle ressources, which then means that Rekkles on the other lane needs to play cautiously. When he does that, Sneaky can freely rotate around the map and put pressure on towers. Fnatic can never win that game. We also saw some weird rotations where Huni pushed deep top along with Reignover and let Rekkles farm on the safe bottom side. Why? Huni was heavily underfarmed at that point in time, so obviously it was never gonna work. I think with Gnar, Huni could have won the lane vs Darius, and then they could have put jungle ressources into pressuring Sneaky down to his tower, and thus making it impossible for him to rotate. Maybe they could then also have given Febiven a better damage dealer like Viktor. Or maybe Le blanc vs Azir. We saw Bjergsen completely dominate the lane vs Nagne and Faker also didn't do that well in the lane vs Ryu. Alternatively, why not just deny Tristana by letting Rekkles play him? He has a great Tristana and so far C9's entire gameplan relies on Sneaky killing towers and minions very fast. Would he then pick Draven or what exactly is it that FNC would fear if they picked Trist? | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
Maybe there are people out there who can judge the level of a team "objectively", and say in a vacuum, by watching EDG versus Bangkok Titans for example, "EDG is a top two team in the world", but I certainly can't. All I can see is that EDG is stronger than Bangkok Titans. Before actually knowing if EDG is worth anything I need to see them facing real competition. Which means that LGD, despite looking strong in China, could actually be a bad team that has looked good because it wasn't facing real teams. There are a trillion people who say they can, but almost always people overrate their own abilities. Monte also failed at this when he argued that C9 was a bad team because they just beat TL, Gravity and TIP who were also bad teams that had just fallen apart. The issue with Monte's approach here is that this type of analysis is extremely much influenced by bias. Monte has always had this idea that NA just suck and whenever he watches NA he wants to be confirmed that his idea is right so he is much more focussed on finding the flaws of the team. All we can do is look at how the teams have performed over the the last 12-13 months. Coming Worlds, I actually thought Korea was slightly overrated, because people looked at them as being automatically a level beyond western teams. Whereas it during last worlds was only the top 2 korean teams that performed better than top western teams. And Samsung Blue and White doens't exist anymore. So I expected that KT and Koo would only be marginally better than teams like Orgigen and CLG. Korea's performance over the 2 international events this year only strenghtened that belief. Given how the teams have played so far, I think I was somewhat accurate on my idea that the difference between top west and KT/KOO was pretty low. But I don't see how anyone could have predicted China being so bad. They had the strongest rosters on paper and looked like the best region during the 2 international events. One could argue that we should expect them perform so poorly due to lack of efficient communication between koreans and chinese, however why did OMG perform so poorly in LPL then? OMG got in the semifinals in last worlds and looked better on paper this year. So when all of the other chinese teams improves their rosters by acquiring koreans and OMG as a response perform much worrse, I think the only reasonable conclusion we can make is that the top LPL teams are better in 2015 than the top LPL teams of 2014. I don't see any logical approach that could have predicted China being so bad without using hindsight bias. | ||
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Ysellian
Netherlands9029 Posts
On October 05 2015 21:14 Hider wrote: I rewatched the C9 vs FNC game and I think Fnatic got very heavily outstrategized during the P/B-phase and during the early midgame. First of, the issue with picking Yasuo vs Darius is that he cannot push deep down, but has to farm on the safe side. But even if he is farming under tower he can still be tower in a 1v2 vs Darius. That's problematic as he then needs jungle ressources, which then means that Rekkles on the other lane needs to play cautiously. When he does that, Sneaky can freely rotate around the map and put pressure on towers. Fnatic can never win that game. We also saw some weird rotations where Huni pushed deep top along with Reignover and let Rekkles farm on the safe bottom side. Why? Huni was heavily underfarmed at that point in time, so obviously it was never gonna work. I think with Gnar, Huni could have won the lane vs Darius, and then they could have put jungle ressources into pressuring Sneaky down to his tower, and thus making it impossible for him to rotate. Maybe they could then also have given Febiven a better damage dealer like Viktor. Alternatively, why not just deny Tristana and let Rekkles play him? He has a great Tristana and so far C9's entire gameplan relies on Sneaky killing towers and minions very fast. Would he then pick Draven or what exactly is it that FNC would fear if they picked Trist? I should do that too actually, I re-watched the game this morning but I was still fuming.  You raise a lot of goods points, the tristana and gnar could have been picked. We've seen both huni and rekkles perform very well on those champs in the past. Same with Viktor on Febiven. | ||
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Numy
South Africa35471 Posts
On October 05 2015 20:16 Maluk wrote: The problem with LoL regions being locked is that it is very difficult to judge the actual level of a team. Teams that look good in their region might just be facing no real competition, and this tournament might be showing that the Chinese scene as a whole is nowhere near as strong as everyone thought. Maybe there are people out there who can judge the level of a team "objectively", and say in a vacuum, by watching EDG versus Bangkok Titans for example, "EDG is a top two team in the world", but I certainly can't. All I can see is that EDG is stronger than Bangkok Titans. Before actually knowing if EDG is worth anything I need to see them facing real competition. Which means that LGD, despite looking strong in China, could actually be a bad team that has looked good because it wasn't facing real teams. My opinion is that if you sent LGD back to China right now and made them play in LPL they'd still dominate, the only difference being that they'd lose to EDG. I have a hard time believing that all of a sudden, the team went from godlike to trashtier. Same story for IG, I'm pretty sure that if they were to compete in China in their current form they'd still be top 3. The thing is LGD never dominated China. They were 5th in the regular season then went 3-1, 3-1, 3-0 and 3-2 in the playoffs. Narrowly beating out QG for the finals win. The only team LGD truly dominated was EDG in that playoff run. China at that point was pretty much just QG/LGD and EDG fighting it out for top spots. Snake had fallen off by then and VG were never good. So while LGD came out at the number 1 team they were never this dominating force people seem to think. It's just a pity that the number 3 team in China(QG) didn't adapt to the new patch for regionals fast enough. As for how to "rate" teams. I think people are looking at the results then going back and saying how "dumb" people were in hindsight. C9s run through the playoffs was against weaker competition so we had no way of knowing how good they actually were. OG was a bit of a weird case as they struggled vs ROC but I think ROC of the regionals were a vastly better team than ROC in the season so that gave off a false impression to people. If H2K weren't set into worlds via points and had to fight for slot like CN did then I have no doubts that ROC would be at worlds instead of them. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Not taking away C9's strengths was a big issue not to mention wtf Yasuo pick. Don't get me wrong, Huni played Yasuo fairly well and made that big play in the Bot Lane but still. Far from optimal. | ||
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orzeu
Poland5205 Posts
On October 05 2015 21:14 Hider wrote: I rewatched the C9 vs FNC game and I think Fnatic got very heavily outstrategized during the P/B-phase and during the early midgame. First of, the issue with picking Yasuo vs Darius is that he cannot push deep down, but has to farm on the safe side. But even if he is farming under tower he can still be tower in a 1v2 vs Darius. That's problematic as he then needs jungle ressources, which then means that Rekkles on the other lane needs to play cautiously. When he does that, Sneaky can freely rotate around the map and put pressure on towers. Fnatic can never win that game. We also saw some weird rotations where Huni pushed deep top along with Reignover and let Rekkles farm on the safe bottom side. Why? Huni was heavily underfarmed at that point in time, so obviously it was never gonna work. I think with Gnar, Huni could have won the lane vs Darius, and then they could have put jungle ressources into pressuring Sneaky down to his tower, and thus making it impossible for him to rotate. Maybe they could then also have given Febiven a better damage dealer like Viktor. Alternatively, why not just deny Tristana by letting Rekkles play him? He has a great Tristana and so far C9's entire gameplan relies on Sneaky killing towers and minions very fast. Would he then pick Draven or what exactly is it that FNC would fear if they picked Trist? FNC pick/ban phase were terrible whole week. They never played Yasuo comp in EU and you could see that they didn't know how to set up fights for him. Also Darius is counter to him, since he can always dive him with a jungler and windwall doesn't matter. I really hope ppl realize that Darius is shit and you pick Lissandra/Gnar (maybe Kennen/Kayle) into him and he can't do shit. So far only OG/SKT/C9 a bit knew how to pick/ban on this patch. On October 05 2015 21:40 NeoIllusions wrote: I think it shows a lack of adaptability by Fnatic, who is think is the premiere EU orga, to allow C9 Azir/Trist after C9 went 2-0 earlier this week. Balls' D2 Penta on Darius really highlights why a lot of teams have been tunneling on him as a priority pick (even if I think Fiora is a stronger laner, Darius is the better front line) and it was just the icing on the cake. C9 has been exhibiting really impressive macro game and teams have to disrupt that if they want a chance to beat C9. I think Darius is shit, especially as early pick (first/second rotation). Fiora is 10 times better. | ||
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Caiada
United States3052 Posts
I honestly think all this tournament has shown is that a lot of teams suck at P/B without people to copy and obvious bans, and the ones that don't suck at it thrive consistently. | ||
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MuddyJam
535 Posts
Yasuo pick I feel can work but required Huni to not mess up as it can be very punishing. In every teamfight Sneaky just blew up, if you look at his damage he was doing nothing. Ultimately is was a great baron call from Hai that allowed them to stall out the game to where they just win late with Azir/Darius. Tris can be replaced by jinx and you get similar turret pushing and late game threat/clean up. Problems are then Darius and Incarnations mid picks. I think there are counters to Azir (assasins) but they don't seems to fit fnatics team-comp and seem to be valued by nobody this tournament. In the rematch of this game fnatic will have first picks so this is a HUGE problem for c9. fnatic can ban Veigar, azir. ??? I would be fine giving c9 lulu, not a ballz champion and incaration needs to be on a heavy damage dealer. If incarnation was to pick lulu is forced c9 into a juggermaw comp with 1 damage threat. C9 will need to look at ban 3 of Gp, mord, lulu, darius. this means you will have a game with no power picks and fnatic get elise. Other fnatic gets there choice of two avaible (also possible all are up but then fnatic get 2 c9 get 2). The problem here then is huni is straight up better on these champs than ballz. So outside of mord which fnatic can use a free ban on, trading power picks is not great for them. So c9 will be forced into a much weaker team composition with no power picks and incarnation forced onto something else. | ||
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NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
Balls and Huni literally free farmed side lanes for 20+ minutes and on most occasions, I'd actually give the edge over to Yasuo when they each have 2-3 items. But the problems comes back to Fnatic's draft and their supposed win condition, which is team fighting and wombo combo. But good luck accomplishing that while you get kited to hell from Azir. So while Incarnati0n continued to do Azir things, Fnatic did nothing to hinder Balls from getting farm and itemizing up to Thornmail for his third item. Yes, Huni managed to do a good job zoning Sneaky but unlike Riot's commentary, C9 managed to squeak out a third carry after funneling so much resources to Balls that Darius finally got his chance to shine. Going forward, I really think teams need to do something about C9's Azir pick first and foremost. He fits so well into C9's macro play style. If you're going to let Incarnati0n get Azir, then you need your Mid Lane to stomp the match up with something like a Viktor. | ||
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Hider
Denmark9384 Posts
FNC pick/ban phase were terrible whole week. They never played Yasuo comp in EU and you could see that they didn't know how to set up fights for him. Also Darius is counter to him, since he can always dive him with a jungler and windwall doesn't matter. I really hope ppl realize that Darius is shit and you pick Lissandra/Gnar (maybe Kennen/Kayle) into him and he can't do shit. So far only OG/SKT/C9 a bit knew how to pick/ban on this patch. It does make somewhat sense on a kite/poke comp as it creates a problematic incentive for the opposing team. If they have to engage you, then they go straight into Darius. So I understand why C9 is interested in picking it + with the comp they are running they are extremely good at giving Balls farms in the midgame. However, if you are not running that comp, why are you picking it then? If they want to deny the poke + Darius comp, why not just design the P/B-phase around outpoking them or banning key champions? I think people are a little too focused on Darius vs Yasuo cause that lane never got played out and they were rarely in that 1v1 or even 2v2 situation with junglers. Balls and Huni literally free farmed side lanes for 20+ minutes and on most occasions, I'd actually give the edge over to Yasuo when they each have 2-3 items. Kinda true, and as I wrote, Fnatic would probably have been in a better spot had they let Rekkles push the toplane and Huni the bottomlane at the time where Huni and Reignover died. But regardless, the Yasuo pick means that its much easier for Sneaky to find "free/open" lanes he can push and rotate. That gives C9 the lead in the early midgame. If C9 also had not made the Baron miscall, then they might have been able to snowball better from the midgame. Hence I wonder what the disadvantage of: Strategy A: Picking Gnar + Viktor and giving the lane where Sneaky is junglesupport to prevent him from pushing the lane and rotating Strategy B: Picking Tristana away from Sneaky On top of that, it's also an unnceasry risk to take to rely on the wombo combo when you are the "favourite"/better teamfight team. Tris can be replaced by jinx and you get similar turret pushing and late game threat/clean up. She lacks escape and relies more on scaling. During the 12-20 minute mark she cannot apply the same pressure as Trist. | ||
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Mensol
14536 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
about level of competition and team strength, level of competition does matter a huge deal but the translation is also not linear. each region is still mostly playing within its own confines and developing strategies within that context. this leads to, among other things, a clash of styles that may favor one region over another despite overall quality of players and play. a key feature of this worlds tourney is the importance of pick/ban and just what strategy you run. BO1s in this sort of situation is not a reliable indicator of team strength, if by strength we mean something closer to what would happen in a Best of 100 series, long term convergence etc. basic tl;dr is that statements about regional strength can still be valid on a general level, but they are also meaningless in a BO1 group stage featuring conflicting strategies. best you can say right now is that the gap is not big enough so as to immunize teams from stronger regions against clueless play/strategic counters. | ||
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SkrollK
France580 Posts
Look at red vs blue side winrate. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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