|
On May 07 2015 07:22 oneofthem wrote:
this current skt team has the most high tier talent out of all skt iterations. they are still figuring out how to play though.
Disagree. 4 out of 5 SKT players won the award for best player in Korea for 2013 and that was before the mass exports happened and the one that didn't win was a runner up to Flame who had one of the most dominant individual performances throughout the year.
Bang has shown up lately but it's too early to tell. I think Wolf is great and underrated, but he still doesn't have the same raw game sense as some older support players. Marin is overrated, always has been because of solo queue. It'll probably still be enough for this event since Korea has historically had the best top laners. Bengi the ultimate toilet or BenGod we don't know yet. I don't trust his skirmishing ability in 2v2s, 3v3s, and in team fights at all.
|
On May 07 2015 07:24 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 07:22 oneofthem wrote:
this current skt team has the most high tier talent out of all skt iterations. they are still figuring out how to play though.
Disagree. 4 out of 5 SKT players won the award for best player in Korea for 2013 and that was before the mass exports happened and the one that didn't win was a runner up to Flame who had one of the most dominant individual performances throughout the year.
It's easy to look amazing when Piglet and Faker destroy everything in sight. Bengi and PoohManDu got exposed over and over after they won OGN.
Impact was mad underrated tho. Korea is *the* region for tops, but Impact held his own more than enough when against guys like Duke/Flame/Goong.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On May 07 2015 07:24 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 07:22 oneofthem wrote:
this current skt team has the most high tier talent out of all skt iterations. they are still figuring out how to play though.
Disagree. 4 out of 5 SKT players won the award for best player in Korea for 2013 and that was before the mass exports happened and the one that didn't win was a runner up to Flame who had one of the most dominant individual performances throughout the year. Bang has shown up lately but it's too early to tell. I think Wolf is great and underrated, but he still doesn't have the same raw game sense as some older support players. Marin is overrated, always has been because of solo queue. It'll probably still be enough for this event since Korea has historically had the best top laners. Bengi the ultimate toilet or BenGod we don't know yet. I don't trust his skirmishing ability in 2v2s, 3v3s, and in team fights at all.
using partially team based awards to evaluate player skill is misleading at best. piglet+mandu was pretty good for a brief period then went to utter shit. they were not mechanically strong players even in their glory days. piglet's highest soloqueue performance was barely making top 50, and mandu was not even high d1.
it's pretty clear that piglet's peak was rather brief, and mandu's best qualities were non-mechanical and smarts related.
as for marin vs impact. as i've said before, the growth or lack thereof of some of these talented players on the roster is likely the problem of coaching. marin is pretty beast in lane, but he still makes a lot of questionable decisions. faker is more prone to bad decisions now than he was before. but from pure talent stand point there's no denying that marin is up there. impact is, when he's not feeding, a better in game performer than marin but he's not as talented.
|
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On May 07 2015 07:24 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 07:22 oneofthem wrote:
this current skt team has the most high tier talent out of all skt iterations. they are still figuring out how to play though.
Disagree. 4 out of 5 SKT players won the award for best player in Korea for 2013 and that was before the mass exports happened and the one that didn't win was a runner up to Flame who had one of the most dominant individual performances throughout the year. Bang has shown up lately but it's too early to tell. I think Wolf is great and underrated, but he still doesn't have the same raw game sense as some older support players. Marin is overrated, always has been because of solo queue. It'll probably still be enough for this event since Korea has historically had the best top laners. Bengi the ultimate toilet or BenGod we don't know yet. I don't trust his skirmishing ability in 2v2s, 3v3s, and in team fights at all.
C'mon
Marin's skill ceiling is higher than Impact's one, even if both became workhorses in T1
Wolf > PoohManDu in same fashion, even if you don't agree with Wolf, you have Wolf+Piccaboo > PoohManDu by default.
And there will be unique opportunity to see how current Bang matches against current Deft, tomorrow already.
This T1 has everything to overcome both SKT T1 #2 and Samsung White in terms of achievements if they get more experience and coaching staff stops doing random things.
|
On May 07 2015 07:36 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 07:24 Itsmedudeman wrote:On May 07 2015 07:22 oneofthem wrote:
this current skt team has the most high tier talent out of all skt iterations. they are still figuring out how to play though.
Disagree. 4 out of 5 SKT players won the award for best player in Korea for 2013 and that was before the mass exports happened and the one that didn't win was a runner up to Flame who had one of the most dominant individual performances throughout the year. Bang has shown up lately but it's too early to tell. I think Wolf is great and underrated, but he still doesn't have the same raw game sense as some older support players. Marin is overrated, always has been because of solo queue. It'll probably still be enough for this event since Korea has historically had the best top laners. Bengi the ultimate toilet or BenGod we don't know yet. I don't trust his skirmishing ability in 2v2s, 3v3s, and in team fights at all. C'mon Marin's skill ceiling is higher than Impact's one, even if both became workhorses in T1 Wolf > PoohManDu in same fashion, even if you don't agree with Wolf, you have Wolf+Piccaboo > PoohManDu by default. And there will be unique opportunity to see how current Bang matches against current Deft, tomorrow already. This T1 has everything to overcome both SKT T1 #2 and Samsung White in terms of achievements if they get more experience and coaching staff stops doing random things.
I'm not saying Impact is better than Marin right now. I'm saying relative to their competition they were all incredibly good and looking at relative skill level is the only thing that matters since later generations will always tend to be higher in skill.
Imo pooh was overrated as shit and watching him lane 2v2 made me wonder how they got away with it. Probably the reason why they 2v1'd so much.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
bang's recent performance is really a case of returning to his expected level (sans game 4, which was above expectation). soloqueue performance for adc is usually pretty good indication of player skill, and bang is pretty much always top 10 while playing a bunch of non-adc games. he certainly has the mechanics and playmaking awareness to succeed at the elite level.
|
Comparing individual player skill levels leads to stuff like Elements happening. It also ignores metas and a whole host of other things. Like, Pooh's/Piglet's laning didn't matter. You 2v1'd 90% of games, and Pooh had the vision game down better than anyone in the world at the time. Impact not carrying as hard as Flame didn't matter because he had the world's best Jungler/Mid combo and an impeccable 1v2. Piglet being reckless and occasionally insane didn't matter because he played Triforce or midgame ADCs that spiked hard and won the game from there.
|
I'm pretty sure the reason for SKT's downfall had nothing to do with Bengi or Poohmandu falling off but rather the acquisition of the cancer that is Casper. Casper joins SKT, SKT suddenly go from undefeated Winter season to 8th place team. Casper joins Samsung, suddenly world champions to 8th place team. Dare you to argue with that.
|
On May 07 2015 08:30 Itsmedudeman wrote:
I'm pretty sure the reason with SKT's downfall had nothing to do with Bengi or Poohmandu falling off but rather the acquisition of the cancer that is Casper. Casper joins SKT, SKT suddenly go from undefeated Winter season to 8th place team. Casper joins Samsung, suddenly world champions to 8th place team. Dare you to argue with that.
You had me at "I'd have to do some digging to see if I agree with this." until Samsung.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
On May 07 2015 08:11 Caiada wrote:
Comparing individual player skill levels leads to stuff like Elements happening. It also ignores metas and a whole host of other things. Like, Pooh's/Piglet's laning didn't matter. You 2v1'd 90% of games, and Pooh had the vision game down better than anyone in the world at the time. Impact not carrying as hard as Flame didn't matter because he had the world's best Jungler/Mid combo and an impeccable 1v2. Piglet being reckless and occasionally insane didn't matter because he played Triforce or midgame ADCs that spiked hard and won the game from there.
obviously individual skill isn't everything, but in this case 'skill' is both a more complete set of abilities than what elements players have and also more relevant when we are talking about matchups against lower tier teams.
a team with top tier individual skill would have a hard time losing to lower range teams because they have higher margin of error.
|
On May 07 2015 08:33 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 08:11 Caiada wrote:
Comparing individual player skill levels leads to stuff like Elements happening. It also ignores metas and a whole host of other things. Like, Pooh's/Piglet's laning didn't matter. You 2v1'd 90% of games, and Pooh had the vision game down better than anyone in the world at the time. Impact not carrying as hard as Flame didn't matter because he had the world's best Jungler/Mid combo and an impeccable 1v2. Piglet being reckless and occasionally insane didn't matter because he played Triforce or midgame ADCs that spiked hard and won the game from there. obviously individual skill isn't everything, but in this case 'skill' is both a more complete set of abilities than what elements players have and also more relevant when we are talking about matchups against lower tier teams. a team with top tier individual skill would have a hard time losing to lower range teams because they have higher margin of error.
Kind of like Dyrus attributed some of his early international struggles with not playing against NA tops. He couldn't get away with as much as he normally could and wasn't ready for it.
|
On May 07 2015 08:33 oneofthem wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 08:11 Caiada wrote:
Comparing individual player skill levels leads to stuff like Elements happening. It also ignores metas and a whole host of other things. Like, Pooh's/Piglet's laning didn't matter. You 2v1'd 90% of games, and Pooh had the vision game down better than anyone in the world at the time. Impact not carrying as hard as Flame didn't matter because he had the world's best Jungler/Mid combo and an impeccable 1v2. Piglet being reckless and occasionally insane didn't matter because he played Triforce or midgame ADCs that spiked hard and won the game from there. obviously individual skill isn't everything, but in this case 'skill' is both a more complete set of abilities than what elements players have and also more relevant when we are talking about matchups against lower tier teams. a team with top tier individual skill would have a hard time losing to lower range teams because they have higher margin of error.
We can say this, but as long as Elements vs. Kabum happened...
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm.
|
It's amazing how terrible Dade played that tournament. Even more amazing he still had a career afterwards.
|
On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm.
In bo1's anything can happen between moderately close teams.
|
On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm.
Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill.
On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE.
|
Um, the alliance at S4 worlds were a legit team back then. It's pointless to look at the shitters now but they were the best European team at Worlds and beat both C9 and NJWS convincingly. It makes it all even more hilarious looking back on the upset since it came right after them beating Najin without giving up a kill and everyone was so hyped for this team.
|
On May 07 2015 09:00 Itsmedudeman wrote:
Um, the alliance at S4 worlds were a legit team back then. It's pointless to look at the shitters now but they were the best European team at Worlds and beat both C9 and NJWS convincingly. It makes it all even more hilarious looking back on the upset since it came right after them beating Najin without giving up a kill and everyone was so hyped for this team.
They were legit in middle of summer split, when they were winning, because of strategy, not individual skill. Then slowly everything went to shit.
|
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
i dont really follow the EU scene but those players can't be that good when they can't even do well in eu lcs.
|
On May 07 2015 09:17 oneofthem wrote:
i dont really follow the EU scene but those players can't be that good when they can't even do well in eu lcs.
Most of them were good in s4.
|
|
|
|
|
|
EPT
