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On May 07 2015 09:17 oneofthem wrote:
i dont really follow the EU scene but those players can't be that good when they can't even do well in eu lcs.
All of them save arguably Froggen/Rekkles fell off *heavily* after S4 in the EL environment. That and Froggen/Rekkles having zero synergy made them especially dreadful.
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On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE.
"GET on paper would never have lost to WE."
Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day.
I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position.
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On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position.
Lol are you really trying to argue WE is better on paper than GE? They are even AT BEST. Xiye before IEM was a failure and had already shown he's not close to the best midlaners and proved it again after he came back to LPL. Everyone else besides Spirit was a complete noname and the team would be in the gutter right now without him. Also, Gorilla was probably the best player on paper before the season started as he was single handedly carrying Najin at worlds.
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Gorilla is actually very good, and probably GE's best player.
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On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position.
This is hilarious, you realize the best team in the World is going to look like they have a stacked roster full of top 5 players because they are the best team in the World. This is a huge mistake I see people consistently make when analyzing teams. The individual skill matters to a certain extent, but what is most important is how the team works together, the organization behind the players, and the coaching infrastructure. I'd place major, major emphasis on that first one.
How the team works together
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
well GET certainly isn't that much better than WE in individual talent to the extent that they could never lose, the statement he was arguing against.
we has a bunch of volatile players, and the main problem with GE is that lee is a shitter. it's not surprising that GE would get outjungled by spirit. GE already falls behind early game fairly often and they can't come back on individaul plays when they draft shitty.
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On May 07 2015 10:06 LimpingGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position. This is hilarious, you realize the best team in the World is going to look like they have a stacked roster full of top 5 players because they are the best team in the World. This is a huge mistake I see people consistently make when analyzing teams. The individual skill matters to a certain extent, but what is most important is how the team works together, the organization behind the players, and the coaching infrastructure. I'd place major, major emphasis on that first one. How the team works together
So are you trying to argue that the players on SSW/SSB would suddenly stop being top-tier when scattered in different teams...? Look at Pawn/Deft/Imp/Spirit and how much they suck now /s. A real legit top-tier player will remain top-tier no matter where he is.
I never said teamwork/infrastructure doesn't matter. Of course it matters and usually the organization's infrastructure has a strong positive correlation with its player quality anyway.
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On May 07 2015 09:59 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position. Lol are you really trying to argue WE is better on paper than GE? They are even AT BEST. Xiye before IEM was a failure and had already shown he's not close to the best midlaners and proved it again after he came back to LPL. Everyone else besides Spirit was a complete noname and the team would be in the gutter right now without him. Also, Gorilla was probably the best player on paper before the season started as he was single handedly carrying Najin at worlds.
No I wasn't. I was just saying WE has a pretty good roster for a bottom team and GE has a pretty average roster for a top team.
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On May 07 2015 10:17 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 10:06 LimpingGoat wrote:On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position. This is hilarious, you realize the best team in the World is going to look like they have a stacked roster full of top 5 players because they are the best team in the World. This is a huge mistake I see people consistently make when analyzing teams. The individual skill matters to a certain extent, but what is most important is how the team works together, the organization behind the players, and the coaching infrastructure. I'd place major, major emphasis on that first one. How the team works together So are you trying to argue that the players on SSW/SSB would suddenly stop being top-tier when scattered in different teams...? Look at Pawn/Deft/Imp/Spirit and how much they suck now /s. A real legit top-tier player will remain top-tier no matter where he is. I never said teamwork/infrastructure doesn't matter. Of course it matters and usually the organization's infrastructure has a strong positive correlation with its player quality anyway.
Conveniently leaves out Looper.
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Do people actually think Looper is bad or is that some dank meme?
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On May 07 2015 10:17 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 10:06 LimpingGoat wrote:On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position. This is hilarious, you realize the best team in the World is going to look like they have a stacked roster full of top 5 players because they are the best team in the World. This is a huge mistake I see people consistently make when analyzing teams. The individual skill matters to a certain extent, but what is most important is how the team works together, the organization behind the players, and the coaching infrastructure. I'd place major, major emphasis on that first one. How the team works together So are you trying to argue that the players on SSW/SSB would suddenly stop being top-tier when scattered in different teams...? Look at Pawn/Deft/Imp/Spirit and how much they suck now /s. A real legit top-tier player will remain top-tier no matter where he is. I never said teamwork/infrastructure doesn't matter. Of course it matters and usually the organization's infrastructure has a strong positive correlation with its player quality anyway.
The entire rosters of SSW and SSB were scattered around China and notice the ones having the most success, Pawn, Deft, Acorn, Imp, were put into teams that were already top tier in China.
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On May 07 2015 10:24 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 10:17 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 10:06 LimpingGoat wrote:On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position. This is hilarious, you realize the best team in the World is going to look like they have a stacked roster full of top 5 players because they are the best team in the World. This is a huge mistake I see people consistently make when analyzing teams. The individual skill matters to a certain extent, but what is most important is how the team works together, the organization behind the players, and the coaching infrastructure. I'd place major, major emphasis on that first one. How the team works together So are you trying to argue that the players on SSW/SSB would suddenly stop being top-tier when scattered in different teams...? Look at Pawn/Deft/Imp/Spirit and how much they suck now /s. A real legit top-tier player will remain top-tier no matter where he is. I never said teamwork/infrastructure doesn't matter. Of course it matters and usually the organization's infrastructure has a strong positive correlation with its player quality anyway. Conveniently leaves out Looper.
More like Dade... Looper still looks like an above-average toplaner, which he always was. His TP plays look worse because he doesn't have a godlike jungle and support providing godlike vision for those plays. Acorn looks good still, and heart is dead.
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On May 07 2015 10:27 AlterKot wrote:
Do people actually think Looper is bad or is that some dank meme?
Admittedly I used to think Looper was nothing special and overrated, but he's actually pretty good when you watch him in LPL despite being on a terrible team. The most important aspect of a top laner is their teleport usage and you can hardly find a fault in Looper's. If I had a stacked team with a strong mid and adc I would probably choose Looper above anyone else honestly. He's definitely playing better than Dade right now, who, if his team can't cover for his shitty laning phase with godlike teamfighting in the midgame will fail to make an impact.
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On May 07 2015 10:24 Gahlo wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 10:17 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 10:06 LimpingGoat wrote:On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position. This is hilarious, you realize the best team in the World is going to look like they have a stacked roster full of top 5 players because they are the best team in the World. This is a huge mistake I see people consistently make when analyzing teams. The individual skill matters to a certain extent, but what is most important is how the team works together, the organization behind the players, and the coaching infrastructure. I'd place major, major emphasis on that first one. How the team works together So are you trying to argue that the players on SSW/SSB would suddenly stop being top-tier when scattered in different teams...? Look at Pawn/Deft/Imp/Spirit and how much they suck now /s. A real legit top-tier player will remain top-tier no matter where he is. I never said teamwork/infrastructure doesn't matter. Of course it matters and usually the organization's infrastructure has a strong positive correlation with its player quality anyway. Conveniently leaves out Looper.
And Looper was by consensus the worst player on SSW, so what's your point?
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On May 07 2015 10:29 LimpingGoat wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 10:17 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 10:06 LimpingGoat wrote:On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position. This is hilarious, you realize the best team in the World is going to look like they have a stacked roster full of top 5 players because they are the best team in the World. This is a huge mistake I see people consistently make when analyzing teams. The individual skill matters to a certain extent, but what is most important is how the team works together, the organization behind the players, and the coaching infrastructure. I'd place major, major emphasis on that first one. How the team works together So are you trying to argue that the players on SSW/SSB would suddenly stop being top-tier when scattered in different teams...? Look at Pawn/Deft/Imp/Spirit and how much they suck now /s. A real legit top-tier player will remain top-tier no matter where he is. I never said teamwork/infrastructure doesn't matter. Of course it matters and usually the organization's infrastructure has a strong positive correlation with its player quality anyway. The entire rosters of SSW and SSB were scattered around China and notice the ones having the most success, Pawn, Deft, Acorn, Imp, were put into teams that were already top tier in China.
I wouldn't call LGD top-tier before Imp/Acorn came. And Spirit has single-handedly carried WE to playoffs.
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GET on paper had results, more time spent with their roster, strong regional history, better players in every position but Jungle, and absolutely shitstomped WE game 1. You could *maybe* make an argument that GE could possibly lose because of lack of experience or Spirit going crazy, and before that game 2, you would have looked hopelessly idealistic.
Unless everything lines up perfectly SSW/SKT K style, anything can happen, often completely separate from individual talent. Mindset, infrastructure, and team synergy are all super underrated in the West.
On May 07 2015 10:34 chosenkerrigan wrote:Show nested quote +On May 07 2015 10:29 LimpingGoat wrote:On May 07 2015 10:17 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 10:06 LimpingGoat wrote:On May 07 2015 09:50 chosenkerrigan wrote:On May 07 2015 08:57 Caiada wrote:On May 07 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote:
eh is elements really that skilled?
but idk i'm not really sure about my theory because of the whole 2013 ozone situation.
edit: anyway it's pretty clear that na or at least tsm has improved. the korean/cn teams have to prepare for tsm or they definitely can lose, something you wouldn't say for s3 tsm. Elements is full of players who were great or at least very good on paper pre-Elements, and then they were all horrendous when they got together. Shook had stupid amounts of hype pre-ALL and did decent before S5. Froggen is Froggen. Rekkles is the prime example of 'better than Tabzz but actually garbage when on EL.' Wickd was pretty widely considered the other good EG player (not by me and many others, of course...), and his replacement had a lot of hype going in too. Nyph/Krepo are obvious weak spots, but that's still theoretically an insanely stacked team by all-Western standards. They then barely got 7th place. Hindsight's 20/20 in judging player skill. On paper, individual skill looks great. And what else are we supposed to go by? I just encourage conservative estimates. GET on paper would never have lost to WE. "GET on paper would never have lost to WE." Actually, GE is one of those teams who doesn't really have a stacked roster that managed to do well in the first half of split. PraY/Smeb were good, but the rest of the team were pretty meh. WE actually has a pretty good roster talent-wise for a team that managed to do so poorly pre-IEM. Spirit is a top3 jungler in the world, Xiye/Mystic are both individually gifted players and can play like the absolute best on a good day. I personally value individual talents very much. The most successful teams so far all had amazing players at pretty much every position (SKT/OMG in S3, SSW/SSB in S4, SKT/EDG in S5, etc.). I don't think a team can be a legit worlds contender without having a top 5 player in the world at every position. This is hilarious, you realize the best team in the World is going to look like they have a stacked roster full of top 5 players because they are the best team in the World. This is a huge mistake I see people consistently make when analyzing teams. The individual skill matters to a certain extent, but what is most important is how the team works together, the organization behind the players, and the coaching infrastructure. I'd place major, major emphasis on that first one. How the team works together So are you trying to argue that the players on SSW/SSB would suddenly stop being top-tier when scattered in different teams...? Look at Pawn/Deft/Imp/Spirit and how much they suck now /s. A real legit top-tier player will remain top-tier no matter where he is. I never said teamwork/infrastructure doesn't matter. Of course it matters and usually the organization's infrastructure has a strong positive correlation with its player quality anyway. The entire rosters of SSW and SSB were scattered around China and notice the ones having the most success, Pawn, Deft, Acorn, Imp, were put into teams that were already top tier in China. I wouldn't call LGD top-tier before Imp/Acorn came. And Spirit has single-handedly carried WE to playoffs.
Imp, Acorn and Spirit were probably all top 5 in the world though. There's really good Koreans, and then there's gods.
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On May 07 2015 10:35 Caiada wrote:
GET on paper had results, more time spent with their roster, strong regional history, better players in every position but Jungle, and absolutely shitstomped WE game 1. You could *maybe* make an argument that GE could possibly lose because of lack of experience or Spirit going crazy, and before that game 2, you would have looked hopelessly idealistic.
Unless everything lines up perfectly SSW/SKT K style, anything can happen, often completely separate from individual talent. Mindset, infrastructure, and team synergy are all super underrated in the West.
I really doubt you could argue in anyway that Kuro > Xiye. Kuro got dumpstered all three games.
And game 1 WE did not get stomped in anyway. They had a pretty decent advantage until the throw. It was WE's game to lose in game 1.
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Pretty sure I called out that fraud Kuro when GE was considered best in the world by a large margin.
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Cayman Islands24199 Posts
mystic actually made it to rank 1 kr (or at least 2) early s4.
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EPT
