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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 14 2015 01:06 MajorityofOne wrote:
I think if you ask twenty different people, you'll get twenty different answers as to who is better than who right now. I guess for some something like Snake > TSM is obvious, meanwhile for others TSM > Snake is just as obvious. And because of the Korean exodus to the LPL and the crazy IEM result its gotten harder to compare teams across regions. How much does domestic success in the LCK mean right now? How much is 2nd place in the LPL worth when teams sandbag the regular season?
I'm inclined to agree IEM isn't the end-all be-all, but I wouldn't just throw the result out, either.
VG is safely second best LPL team, fined Mata is miracle worker.
SKT/EDG
VG
TSM/GE/OMG/LGD/iG/YoemoeFlashWolves/Snake
CJ/JinAir/KT/King/Fnatic/ahQ
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I love how the "eye test" has essentially just become "Stop asking me to justify my beliefs".
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On April 14 2015 01:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 01:06 MajorityofOne wrote:
I think if you ask twenty different people, you'll get twenty different answers as to who is better than who right now. I guess for some something like Snake > TSM is obvious, meanwhile for others TSM > Snake is just as obvious. And because of the Korean exodus to the LPL and the crazy IEM result its gotten harder to compare teams across regions. How much does domestic success in the LCK mean right now? How much is 2nd place in the LPL worth when teams sandbag the regular season?
I'm inclined to agree IEM isn't the end-all be-all, but I wouldn't just throw the result out, either. VG is safely second best LPL team, fined Mata is miracle worker. SKT/EDG VG TSM/GE/OMG/LGD/iG/YoemoeFlashWolves/Snake CJ/JinAir/KT/King/Fnatic/ahQ
Why is Yoe in the same tier as the team that beat them 3-1? Why is VG a clear tier above GE?
And the real most important question is, why isn't Snake n.1 when they have best adc Krystal? 
On April 14 2015 01:07 LimpingGoat wrote:
I love how the "eye test" has essentially just become "Stop asking me to justify my beliefs".
This is all TSM and WE's fault. Had IEM just proceeded according to script we wouldn't have to entertain all this crazy talk about TSM maybe being good. As a TSM fan I hold you personally responsible, ggwp
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On April 14 2015 01:07 LimpingGoat wrote:
I love how the "eye test" has essentially just become "Stop asking me to justify my beliefs".
If you're refering to me then I mean something different. Basically I think that noone came up with good way to describe team's strength. We can describe the team playstyle and argue over who the star is, what is the team's focus and what do they excel at. However when it comes to judging which team has more individual talent or better rotations, I fail to see how we can quantify, describe or argue it. So while few would argue that Bjergsen is one of the best western players or that Samsung had better map movement and vision control than any other team, once we get to any closer comparison, there's just no way to "justify beliefs". That's why I personally say that majority of League discussion is just eye test, because that's what is to me - people watch a team and think "X is good Y is bad", or maybe "X is good because buzzword" (mechanics, shotcalling, laning). And it's not just us lowlings, if you watch Summoning Insight or any other League show it's pretty much the exact same thing.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 14 2015 01:21 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 01:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 14 2015 01:06 MajorityofOne wrote:
I think if you ask twenty different people, you'll get twenty different answers as to who is better than who right now. I guess for some something like Snake > TSM is obvious, meanwhile for others TSM > Snake is just as obvious. And because of the Korean exodus to the LPL and the crazy IEM result its gotten harder to compare teams across regions. How much does domestic success in the LCK mean right now? How much is 2nd place in the LPL worth when teams sandbag the regular season?
I'm inclined to agree IEM isn't the end-all be-all, but I wouldn't just throw the result out, either. VG is safely second best LPL team, fined Mata is miracle worker. SKT/EDG VG TSM/GE/OMG/LGD/iG/YoemoeFlashWolves/Snake CJ/JinAir/KT/King/Fnatic/ahQ Why is Yoe in the same tier as the team that beat them 3-1? Why is VG a clear tier above GE? And the real most important question is, why isn't Snake n.1 when they have best adc Krystal?
Because yoe is best SEA team and only team from region which can make Ro8 of Worlds, despite playing 4v5 every game. And tiering doesn't work like that, CJ 2-0'd SKT 3 months ago as well, it doesn't make them as S-tier.
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On April 14 2015 01:22 AlterKot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 01:07 LimpingGoat wrote:
I love how the "eye test" has essentially just become "Stop asking me to justify my beliefs". If you're refering to me then I mean something different. Basically I think that noone came up with good way to describe team's strength. We can describe the team playstyle and argue over who the star is, what is the team's focus and what do they excel at. However when it comes to judging which team has more individual talent or better rotations, I fail to see how we can quantify, describe or argue it. So while few would argue that Bjergsen is one of the best western players or that Samsung had better map movement and vision control than any other team, once we get to any closer comparison, there's just no way to "justify beliefs". That's why I personally say that majority of League discussion is just eye test, because that's what is to me - people watch a team and think "X is good Y is bad", or maybe "X is good because buzzword" (mechanics, shotcalling, laning). And it's not just us lowlings, if you watch Summoning Insight or any other League show it's pretty much the exact same thing.
The lack of convincing metrics is a problem. Like sure you can point to KDA, GPM, damage, number of wards, and all that good stuff, but thats always relative to the champions selected and the strength of your opponent and your role in the team comp, etc. etc. Like Easyhoon has a higher KDA than Faker, big deal, we know that metric doesn't mean as much when you get to play "safe" mages and play against the weaker teams. Does a higher CS in midlane mean you're outlaning your opponent, or does he have less CS because he applied lots of map pressure and you just farmed in lane.
Add in the fact that all these numbers exist in totally different groups of teams (domestic region) where mini-metas still develop (though less than it used to be, except arguably Europe which still just does wtv the fuck it wants). It becomes a huge clusterfuck trying to use numbers to back up a point. And if you're not using numbers, you're using the things you see happen in game, aka the eye test.
Its worth mentioning, however, that different eyes are going to see different, and in some cases much more important, things. Like i'd trust somebody who's watching the minimap frequently during the game more than I'd trust someone who's fixating on champion build paths, because I think map movements tend to be more important than most build decisions except for the truly horrible ones. I do think you can critically evaluate teams from different regions, even compare them, using the eye test. But you need to train your eyes and not just look at the obvious things. I don't think I'm particularly great at it yet
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On April 14 2015 01:23 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 01:21 MajorityofOne wrote:On April 14 2015 01:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 14 2015 01:06 MajorityofOne wrote:
I think if you ask twenty different people, you'll get twenty different answers as to who is better than who right now. I guess for some something like Snake > TSM is obvious, meanwhile for others TSM > Snake is just as obvious. And because of the Korean exodus to the LPL and the crazy IEM result its gotten harder to compare teams across regions. How much does domestic success in the LCK mean right now? How much is 2nd place in the LPL worth when teams sandbag the regular season?
I'm inclined to agree IEM isn't the end-all be-all, but I wouldn't just throw the result out, either. VG is safely second best LPL team, fined Mata is miracle worker. SKT/EDG VG TSM/GE/OMG/LGD/iG/YoemoeFlashWolves/Snake CJ/JinAir/KT/King/Fnatic/ahQ Why is Yoe in the same tier as the team that beat them 3-1? Why is VG a clear tier above GE? And the real most important question is, why isn't Snake n.1 when they have best adc Krystal? Because yoe is best SEA team and only team from region which can make Ro8 of Worlds, despite playing 4v5 every game. And tiering doesn't work like that, CJ 2-0'd SKT 3 months ago as well, it doesn't make them as S-tier.
Isnt them playing 4v5 every game indicative of them being weaker cuz somebody on the team really sucks? I'm not interested in tiering 4/5's of Yoe, how strong is the whole team! And they just lost to AHQ. I fully admit I know next to nothing about the region so I'll trust your evalutation of Yoe more than mine, all I've seen from them is IEM and that didn't make me think they were on par with TSM, Snake, IG, or GE.
CJ beating SKT in week 1 is kind of moot when SKT stomped them without Faker much more recently
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On April 14 2015 01:22 AlterKot wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 01:07 LimpingGoat wrote:
I love how the "eye test" has essentially just become "Stop asking me to justify my beliefs". If you're refering to me then I mean something different. Basically I think that noone came up with good way to describe team's strength. We can describe the team playstyle and argue over who the star is, what is the team's focus and what do they excel at. However when it comes to judging which team has more individual talent or better rotations, I fail to see how we can quantify, describe or argue it. So while few would argue that Bjergsen is one of the best western players or that Samsung had better map movement and vision control than any other team, once we get to any closer comparison, there's just no way to "justify beliefs". That's why I personally say that majority of League discussion is just eye test, because that's what is to me - people watch a team and think "X is good Y is bad", or maybe "X is good because buzzword" (mechanics, shotcalling, laning). And it's not just us lowlings, if you watch Summoning Insight or any other League show it's pretty much the exact same thing.
There's no such thing as a fair eye test. If you just watch two teams you're going to tend to see flaws in the team you already believe or want to believe is worse and overestimate strengths in the team that you already believe or want to believe is better.
That's why I always think it's so stupid when I hear someone like Thoorin or Montecristo say, "It doesn't matter if the teams don't play against eachother we can just watch the games with our eyes and see which is better". No! You cannot, you guys don't even play the fucking game, you're the last people who could watch the games and fairly evaluate how strong each team is.
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All I'm saying that if one guy says that Snake is better than TSM and other says that TSM is better than Snake and I don't have my own opinion then not only there's no way in hell one convinces the other, but also there's really no way that they can convince me either way. Hell even in the same region it can be hard but I can't think of a good example.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On April 14 2015 01:03 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 00:57 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:On April 14 2015 00:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
And Snake isn't better than TSM, thanks.
Uhhh.... Snake is overrated, noheart will unleash his potential and lead King to wonderland of overrated teams ~_~ Fight me, Cheep.
Please, NoHeart is busy keeping Ley in prison.
On April 14 2015 01:03 AlterKot wrote:
YOU'RE JUST SALTY CHINA TALK WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG CHEEP :>
Please Snake is 3-1 EDG. Can I talk to you about our lord and savior Baka?
On April 14 2015 01:04 Ansibled wrote:
Cheep should go on China Talk.
I'm considering it
My problem with Snake is I just don't like Draven players to be honest.
Fair enough :3
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As far as rating TSM goes, they are easily a top 3 team in the World right now. Potentially the best.
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We need LL talk show, noone would listen to it but it doesn't stop paravine and couple others :>
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We'll see how they perform at Tally.
Until then, there's no real point in trying to argue about who's better.
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On April 14 2015 00:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 00:45 AlterKot wrote:
I'm gonna agree that IEM Katowice is a massive wrench to historical expecations for regions' strength and current predictions should be based mostly on eye test and we know how well that works :p Let white guys inferiority complex show up. People just can't live in world where TSM is stronger than any Korean team but SKT and GE in good day, rofl. CJ, KT and Jin Air > TSM, my sides, pls. And Snake isn't better than TSM, thanks.
lmao, the only team in LPL that actually poses a threat to EDG, isn't better than TSM? lol.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
With the case of AHQ vs Yoe it's hard for me fairly claim the playoff results because it was so weird and unexpected, it's like suggesting that najin shield was better than KT Arrows after S4 regionals or GGU the second best team in NA after playoffs. The problem is that AHQ was without the doubt the worst of the top 4 teams, they had only won one game against the other top four (Yoe forfeited their last game) and they were even dropping the games to the bottom four of the LMS. Then playoffs come, they bench greentea, put albis in support and bring in mountain and suddenly 9-1 playoffs win. It had literally zero precedence, I want to see far more AHQ matches with this new roster before I can conclude anything really definitive on them because of how sudden the playoffs run was. It's hard to discredit how well they all played in playoffs (except ziv lomo) but I want to see more before I declare them better than a team that only dropped one map before playoffs.
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Baa?21244 Posts
Please, Ahq was the best team in Taiwan for the past three years, they just finally decided to stop showing mercy.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On April 14 2015 01:41 Lost My Will To Live wrote:
We'll see how they perform at Tally.
Until then, there's no real point in trying to argue about who's better.
What if C9 beats TSM :#
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Then TSM fucking blows and shouldn't even be compared to other regions. What else is there to conclude?
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On April 14 2015 01:44 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:
Please, Ahq was the best team in Taiwan for the past three years, they just finally decided to stop showing mercy.
AHQ didn't choke and looked like shit in the regular season, it's like the anti ahq way. The post playoffs taiwan is a scary and toxic place.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 14 2015 01:41 wei2coolman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 00:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 14 2015 00:45 AlterKot wrote:
I'm gonna agree that IEM Katowice is a massive wrench to historical expecations for regions' strength and current predictions should be based mostly on eye test and we know how well that works :p Let white guys inferiority complex show up. People just can't live in world where TSM is stronger than any Korean team but SKT and GE in good day, rofl. CJ, KT and Jin Air > TSM, my sides, pls. And Snake isn't better than TSM, thanks. lmao, the only team in LPL that actually poses a threat to EDG, isn't better than TSM? lol.
Only because this patch is literally Snake heaven ~_~
Unless they're going back to their LSPL playstyle, I'm rejecting to show Snake any mercy.
Weiless and imp will finish higher than Snake ^_^
On April 14 2015 01:34 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 01:23 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 14 2015 01:21 MajorityofOne wrote:On April 14 2015 01:07 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:On April 14 2015 01:06 MajorityofOne wrote:
I think if you ask twenty different people, you'll get twenty different answers as to who is better than who right now. I guess for some something like Snake > TSM is obvious, meanwhile for others TSM > Snake is just as obvious. And because of the Korean exodus to the LPL and the crazy IEM result its gotten harder to compare teams across regions. How much does domestic success in the LCK mean right now? How much is 2nd place in the LPL worth when teams sandbag the regular season?
I'm inclined to agree IEM isn't the end-all be-all, but I wouldn't just throw the result out, either. VG is safely second best LPL team, fined Mata is miracle worker. SKT/EDG VG TSM/GE/OMG/LGD/iG/YoemoeFlashWolves/Snake CJ/JinAir/KT/King/Fnatic/ahQ Why is Yoe in the same tier as the team that beat them 3-1? Why is VG a clear tier above GE? And the real most important question is, why isn't Snake n.1 when they have best adc Krystal? Because yoe is best SEA team and only team from region which can make Ro8 of Worlds, despite playing 4v5 every game. And tiering doesn't work like that, CJ 2-0'd SKT 3 months ago as well, it doesn't make them as S-tier. Isnt them playing 4v5 every game indicative of them being weaker cuz somebody on the team really sucks? I'm not interested in tiering 4/5's of Yoe, how strong is the whole team! And they just lost to AHQ. I fully admit I know next to nothing about the region so I'll trust your evalutation of Yoe more than mine, all I've seen from them is IEM and that didn't make me think they were on par with TSM, Snake, IG, or GE. CJ beating SKT in week 1 is kind of moot when SKT stomped them without Faker much more recently
I don't wanna trust in ahQ, benching your best player and going 9-1 in LMS playoffs after looking awful whole season is too fucking weird even for my SEA standards.
YoeFW is hella strong even with NL being Taiwanese Cop and definitely stronger than any EU team/every NA team but TSM, which makes them Ro8 at Worlds contenders if not Ro4 with lucky brackets. Plus they're not chokers like certain S2 World Champion team.
On April 14 2015 01:39 LimpingGoat wrote:
As far as rating TSM goes, they are easily a top 3 team in the World right now. Potentially the best.
And then people ask why TSM fanboys ain't taken serious in most part.
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EPT
