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I think it's worth noting how well Cop has performed this split as well. I remember thinking to myself that "Hey, Cop looks really good this year." early on in the split before I stopped watching Gravity's games, and the stats available seem to reinforce the idea that he's become a pretty good ADC in NA.
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Uhhhh do people actually think that how well a player farms in standard lanes is a valuable metric to measure how good a player is? The advantages gained by like the 10 or so CS margin in standard lanes means nothing compared to the advantages gained through strong teamfighting. Even if you're using it to measure how well a player exerts pressure in lane in order to get earlygame objectives its still mostly meaningless, so long as a player is not getting utterly smashed. Turtle doesn't have a good 2v2 lane phase but as long as he keeps within 10 or even 20 CS it doesn't even matter because he's a better teamfighter than 90% of the ADCs in NA. 2v2 laning is even more meaningless when you consider that TSM laneswaps in at least half their games and in laneswaps how much CS you get is dictated by how well your team plays more than how well you play individually. The same thing applies to Dyrus as well, yeah he loses lane in a 1v1, but he's a better teamfighter than 90% of the NA toplaners, so who gives a fuck. Games are nearly impossible to snowball off of standard lanes nowadays, and every change Riot has made recently has further exacerbated this fact. TSM has always been a teamfighting team, and currently they have the best 5v5 teamfighting in the west IMO. Is its as good as Snake's, EDG's or SKT's? Fuck no. But TSM aren't going to get a Sneaky type player out of fucking nowhere and Turtle's been trending upwards since Worlds. I fully believe that TSM could beat a Snake or SKT if he continues that trend. Not EDG though. Deft is too much of a god, someone else is going to have to beat EDG.
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TSM TSM TSM!
No way Adrian is mechanically better than Aphromoo, he let his team down so often. TiP relies so much on Rush it's crazy.
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On April 13 2015 10:34 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:23 Sleight wrote:On April 13 2015 10:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:18 Sleight wrote:On April 13 2015 10:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:
TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world. I cant believe anyone believes that. Tsm are not a contender for World Champion right now. That is my definition of world class. There are no worlds in which TSM win if it happened with this lineup at this time. I never said they were contenders? If your definition for world class is only that you can WIN the entire championship, then there are only 2 world class teams right now. There are three teams in Korea. At least three teams in China that all could win worlds. There are no teams in Eu, Na, or Taiwan that could. 3 teams from Korea and China that could win worlds. Hold on a second. I want you to picture Snake and CJ Entus winning Worlds. I think I've proven my point. We've already seen what GE can do on the international stage. Lose to an 8th place LPL team when there are huge stakes. Even if it was a bo5 and we give them the benefit of the doubt they win in 5. They still went to game 5 against an 8th place LPL team. You think TSM aren't capable of hanging with a team like that? Absolutely CJ or Snake could win worlds with a decent draw. If SKT and EDG end up on the other side of the bracket, either of those teams could reasonably show up and win a Bo5 against either of those. Not likely but definitely doable. Could TSM? Nope. Could Fnatic? Nope.
LOL, CJ is likely to not even make worlds, even then they'd need a lucky draw to get out of groups. Do you even watch OGN?
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WildTurtle can sometimes play very aggressively and this sometimes can lead to bad results.
Still, if you consider his performance in important situations (playoffs/international tournaments) he's one of, if not the best ADCs in the west.
Also I think he crits slightly more in high pressure situations.
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On April 13 2015 08:52 IMoperator wrote:
Seriously though, I still don't know why nobody can exploit TSM's strategy. Every game it's like this: santorin/lustboy go mid to help bjergsen, getting him ahead. Then since bjerg's ahead they control vision and get picks. every single game, with little deviation.
What I dont understand is why people don't understand that why Dyrus "does bad" its not because he is terrible, its because he is playing 2v1, not just during the 2v1 stage, but during all phases. Its retarded, teams seem to think to themselves "We should camp Dyrus, don't you remember that one time he tilted at S3 worlds?!!!!!!22211" Guess what, he hasn't tilted since then. Guess what, he was the carry on that team, it had Reginald mid.
TSM doesn't do any of the things that people pretend they do, other teams just get baited into doing the exact things that TSM seems to want them to do. Its fucking baffling.
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Lol the reason people think Dyrus gets camped more than other people is because he dies a lot more often to these ganks than others. He's tilted plenty of times since then, just not throughout the entire series, but for game instances definitely.
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Vg,IG,Snake,EDG are better then tsm. Typical na overrating tsm perfomance again. They will get exposed vs teams who midlaner is equal or better then Bjergsen(faker,pawn,rookie,cool,febiven,poe,weiless...) . I mean the fact that fucking hai is 4 times in the final said enough.
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On April 13 2015 19:34 skykh wrote:
Vg,IG,Snake,EDG are better then tsm. Typical na overrating tsm perfomance again. They will get exposed vs teams who midlaner is equal or better then Bjergsen(faker,pawn,rookie,cool,febiven,poe,weiless...) . I mean the fact that fucking hai is 4 times in the final said enough.
Agreed. SKT, GE, KT, and CJ all better than TSM as well.
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I don't think we can really start to rank up teams from different regions until we see these teams in their respective playoffs. I want to see Snake adapt in a best of 5 against a good opponent, right now I still think of them as really really good at one style, right now the only 5 game series we've seen with them were in the lulzy Demacia Cup where they lost to QG. VG and IG look good, but again, the LPL regular season is not usually the best indicator of teams strength unless they're REALLY going off like EDG. OMG could still be legit, but until the playoffs how can we really say, they were sandbagging the regular season and what their real level is is hard to determine.
I would concede EDG and SKT are on another level right now, and both of those teams can negate Bjergson with their own god-tier midlaners. I don't think there's much to debate there because Faker, Pawn, and even Easyhoon (KDA leader for Korean mids, btw, admittedly he played the less challenging opponents between him and Faker), would all do work. I'd also take GE even though they wouldn't necessarily outlane TSM, they've shown that they can afford to give teams the midgame lead though and still win with great teamfighting and scaling comps.
CJ's resume is they beat the weaker Korean teams and they beat Jin Air. SKT blitzed them without Faker, GE outclassed them. I don't want to judge them harshly based on silly best of 1s at IEM but nothing in the LCK makes me think they're all that good.
On the subject of KT, I really don't think we should rate them based on late season performances after the playoff seeding was already decided. The GE and Jin Air series both meant nothing to anyone involved. I do think they're a team thats going to keep improving and probably be in the playoffs next split. But I'm not just gunna concede that they'd beat the top western teams.
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I'm gonna agree that IEM Katowice is a massive wrench to historical expecations for regions' strength and current predictions should be based mostly on eye test and we know how well that works :p
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 14 2015 00:45 AlterKot wrote:
I'm gonna agree that IEM Katowice is a massive wrench to historical expecations for regions' strength and current predictions should be based mostly on eye test and we know how well that works :p
Let white guys inferiority complex show up.
People just can't live in world where TSM is stronger than any Korean team but SKT and GE in good day, rofl.
CJ, KT and Jin Air > TSM, my sides, pls.
And Snake isn't better than TSM, thanks.
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On April 14 2015 00:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 00:45 AlterKot wrote:
I'm gonna agree that IEM Katowice is a massive wrench to historical expecations for regions' strength and current predictions should be based mostly on eye test and we know how well that works :p Let white guys inferiority complex show up. People just can't live in world where TSM is stronger than any Korean team but SKT and GE in good day, rofl. CJ, KT and Jin Air > TSM, my sides, pls. And Snake isn't better than TSM, thanks.
It's TSM, you also have to count in the hater factor.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On April 14 2015 00:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
And Snake isn't better than TSM, thanks.
Uhhh....
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On April 14 2015 00:57 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 00:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
And Snake isn't better than TSM, thanks.
Uhhh....
THE SNAKE HATE TRAIN HAS NO BRAKES, KRYSTAL IS THE ANTI-CHRIST OF CHINESE LOL
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On April 14 2015 00:57 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On April 14 2015 00:52 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:
And Snake isn't better than TSM, thanks.
Uhhh....
Snake is overrated, noheart will unleash his potential and lead King to wonderland of overrated teams ~_~
Fight me, Cheep.
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YOU'RE JUST SALTY CHINA TALK WAS RIGHT ALL ALONG CHEEP :>
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Cheep should go on China Talk.
My problem with Snake is I just don't like Draven players to be honest.
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I think if you ask twenty different people, you'll get twenty different answers as to who is better than who right now. I guess for some something like Snake > TSM is obvious, meanwhile for others TSM > Snake is just as obvious. And because of the Korean exodus to the LPL and the crazy IEM result its gotten harder to compare teams across regions. How much does domestic success in the LCK mean right now? How much is 2nd place in the LPL worth when teams sandbag the regular season?
I'm inclined to agree IEM isn't the end-all be-all, but I wouldn't just throw the result out, either.
PS I think Snake is pretty good, come at me China Talk Krystal>NaMei ggwp lol
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
On April 14 2015 01:04 Ansibled wrote:
Cheep should go on China Talk.
My problem with Snake is I just don't like Draven players to be honest.
My problem with snake is that they're oppressing flandre by making him play maokai for krystal, until flandre gets to play fizz top snake will be worse than TSM :>
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EPT
