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On April 13 2015 11:03 ticklishmusic wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Goddamn you are saltier than the Dead Sea.
nice meme
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How can humans be 70% water when IMoperator is 100% salt?
Looking forward to both the 3rd place match and the finals, I think TL/TiP will be an interesting matchup and hopefully they can break forever 4th. TSM/C9 should be good as well
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On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right?
Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though.
Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level.
Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons.
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On April 13 2015 11:19 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though. Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level. Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons.
I can't even take you seriously anymore, Sneaky is on an entirely different level compared to turtle. turtle actually has a midlane that takes pressure away from his lane and a better support than Sneaky does. Sneaky was basically 1v5 carrying the for the whole first part of the season, and even now you can see that C9 still relies on sneaky a lot (probably too much). Turtle barely ever wins lane, yet cleans up kills that are set up for him, which is his job, but he's not carrying games like Sneaky does.
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Well if TL finishes 4th, it'll be NALCS as usual.
Curse the 4th
CLG failing whenever it actually matters.
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On April 13 2015 11:27 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:19 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though. Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level. Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons. I can't even take you seriously anymore, Sneaky is on an entirely different level compared to turtle. turtle actually has a midlane that takes pressure away from his lane and a better support than Sneaky does. Sneaky was basically 1v5 carrying the for the whole first part of the season, and even now you can see that C9 still relies on sneaky a lot (probably too much). Turtle barely ever wins lane, yet cleans up kills that are set up for him, which is his job, but he's not carrying games like Sneaky does.
Because Sneaky is on a team with worse players, he's able to stand out more as the carry on his team.
It shouldn't be that difficult to understand.
When his teammates were better, relative to his own skill, people thought he was the one being carried while Meteos and Ballz did all the work.
Perception is key to the eye test.
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On April 13 2015 11:33 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:27 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:19 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though. Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level. Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons. I can't even take you seriously anymore, Sneaky is on an entirely different level compared to turtle. turtle actually has a midlane that takes pressure away from his lane and a better support than Sneaky does. Sneaky was basically 1v5 carrying the for the whole first part of the season, and even now you can see that C9 still relies on sneaky a lot (probably too much). Turtle barely ever wins lane, yet cleans up kills that are set up for him, which is his job, but he's not carrying games like Sneaky does. Because Sneaky is on a team with worse players, he's able to stand out more as the carry on his team. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand. When his teammates were better, relative to his own skill, people thought he was the one being carried while Meteos and Ballz did all the work. Perception is key to the eye test.
No, turtle is just worse. The eye test is actually watching the fucking games and looking at how each player is playing the games, and you can see that Turtle does worse in each game compared to Sneaky. Turtle's csing and positioning are just flat out worse than Sneaky's. Turtle looks as "good" as he does BECAUSE he's on TSM. Put him on any weaker team and the disparity between the two players would be even bigger.
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On April 13 2015 11:41 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:33 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:27 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:19 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though. Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level. Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons. I can't even take you seriously anymore, Sneaky is on an entirely different level compared to turtle. turtle actually has a midlane that takes pressure away from his lane and a better support than Sneaky does. Sneaky was basically 1v5 carrying the for the whole first part of the season, and even now you can see that C9 still relies on sneaky a lot (probably too much). Turtle barely ever wins lane, yet cleans up kills that are set up for him, which is his job, but he's not carrying games like Sneaky does. Because Sneaky is on a team with worse players, he's able to stand out more as the carry on his team. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand. When his teammates were better, relative to his own skill, people thought he was the one being carried while Meteos and Ballz did all the work. Perception is key to the eye test. No, turtle is just worse. The eye test is actually watching the fucking games and looking at how each player is playing the games, and you can see that Turtle does worse in each game compared to Sneaky. Turtle's csing and positioning are just flat out worse than Sneaky's. Turtle looks as "good" as he does BECAUSE he's on TSM. Put him on any weaker team and the disparity between the two players would be even bigger.
I disagree. I think it's arguable that Sneaky is a better player, but that they are both fantastic ADCs, and that the numbers reflect that.
Turtle's CSing isn't THAT much worse than Sneaky's, with an 88 CS discrepency over the entire split.
CSing is even probably a bad metric for judging ADC calibre, considering Doublelift and Cop, who are both worse than Sneaky and WildTurtle, have a huge lead in the CS department (over 500 more CS over the split than Sneaky for Cop, over 300 CS lead for Doublelift).
Edit: As well, I think the stats show that you're positioning claims are probably completely correct between the two, considering Sneaky only died 25 times to Turtle's 41. But that's just one aspect to being a great ADC.
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I'll buy that Sneaky is better than WT
But I won't buy that WT is straight up bad or that he's somehow TSM's weakest link.
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On April 13 2015 11:51 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:41 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:33 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:27 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:19 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though. Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level. Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons. I can't even take you seriously anymore, Sneaky is on an entirely different level compared to turtle. turtle actually has a midlane that takes pressure away from his lane and a better support than Sneaky does. Sneaky was basically 1v5 carrying the for the whole first part of the season, and even now you can see that C9 still relies on sneaky a lot (probably too much). Turtle barely ever wins lane, yet cleans up kills that are set up for him, which is his job, but he's not carrying games like Sneaky does. Because Sneaky is on a team with worse players, he's able to stand out more as the carry on his team. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand. When his teammates were better, relative to his own skill, people thought he was the one being carried while Meteos and Ballz did all the work. Perception is key to the eye test. No, turtle is just worse. The eye test is actually watching the fucking games and looking at how each player is playing the games, and you can see that Turtle does worse in each game compared to Sneaky. Turtle's csing and positioning are just flat out worse than Sneaky's. Turtle looks as "good" as he does BECAUSE he's on TSM. Put him on any weaker team and the disparity between the two players would be even bigger. I disagree. I think it's arguable that Sneaky is a better player, but that they are both fantastic ADCs, and that the numbers reflect that.
It's really not arguable lol, maybe 1+ years ago you could have argued that turtle was better, but sneaky has been consistently better than turtle since at least last year.
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On April 13 2015 11:55 ticklishmusic wrote:
I'll buy that Sneaky is better than WT
But I won't buy that WT is straight up bad or that he's somehow TSM's weakest link.
He's not terrible but he's not that great either. He's in the upper half of adc's, but not really near the top of the list.
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On April 13 2015 11:55 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:51 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:41 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:33 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:27 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:19 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though. Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level. Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons. I can't even take you seriously anymore, Sneaky is on an entirely different level compared to turtle. turtle actually has a midlane that takes pressure away from his lane and a better support than Sneaky does. Sneaky was basically 1v5 carrying the for the whole first part of the season, and even now you can see that C9 still relies on sneaky a lot (probably too much). Turtle barely ever wins lane, yet cleans up kills that are set up for him, which is his job, but he's not carrying games like Sneaky does. Because Sneaky is on a team with worse players, he's able to stand out more as the carry on his team. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand. When his teammates were better, relative to his own skill, people thought he was the one being carried while Meteos and Ballz did all the work. Perception is key to the eye test. No, turtle is just worse. The eye test is actually watching the fucking games and looking at how each player is playing the games, and you can see that Turtle does worse in each game compared to Sneaky. Turtle's csing and positioning are just flat out worse than Sneaky's. Turtle looks as "good" as he does BECAUSE he's on TSM. Put him on any weaker team and the disparity between the two players would be even bigger. I disagree. I think it's arguable that Sneaky is a better player, but that they are both fantastic ADCs, and that the numbers reflect that. It's really not arguable lol, maybe 1+ years ago you could have argued that turtle was better, but sneaky has been consistently better than turtle since at least last year.
Which is incredibly convenient because Turtle had a massive slump almost all of last year. All that matters is now and, while Turtle still has his issues, he's a lot better than he was.
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On April 13 2015 11:55 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:51 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:41 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:33 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:27 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:19 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though. Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level. Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons. I can't even take you seriously anymore, Sneaky is on an entirely different level compared to turtle. turtle actually has a midlane that takes pressure away from his lane and a better support than Sneaky does. Sneaky was basically 1v5 carrying the for the whole first part of the season, and even now you can see that C9 still relies on sneaky a lot (probably too much). Turtle barely ever wins lane, yet cleans up kills that are set up for him, which is his job, but he's not carrying games like Sneaky does. Because Sneaky is on a team with worse players, he's able to stand out more as the carry on his team. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand. When his teammates were better, relative to his own skill, people thought he was the one being carried while Meteos and Ballz did all the work. Perception is key to the eye test. No, turtle is just worse. The eye test is actually watching the fucking games and looking at how each player is playing the games, and you can see that Turtle does worse in each game compared to Sneaky. Turtle's csing and positioning are just flat out worse than Sneaky's. Turtle looks as "good" as he does BECAUSE he's on TSM. Put him on any weaker team and the disparity between the two players would be even bigger. I disagree. I think it's arguable that Sneaky is a better player, but that they are both fantastic ADCs, and that the numbers reflect that. It's really not arguable lol, maybe 1+ years ago you could have argued that turtle was better, but sneaky has been consistently better than turtle since at least last year.
Of course it is, because the objective numbers that we have available to us demonstrate that while they have different strengths and overall comparable numbers. I think Sneaky is probably the better ADC, but it's not as clear-cut and dry as you make it out to be, and there are legitimate arguments in favour of Turtle being the better of the two.
AND
It could be heavily dependent on the meta and compositions chosen by their teams. One ADC could be capable of hard-carrying under conditions that the other would simply get by, or fail. But we'd need more in-depth composition analysis and statistics that I'm not sure are available.
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On April 13 2015 12:04 Nemireck wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 11:55 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:51 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:41 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:33 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:27 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:19 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:47 ticklishmusic wrote:
Why does everyone say turtle is bad? I don't get it Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though. Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level. Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons. I can't even take you seriously anymore, Sneaky is on an entirely different level compared to turtle. turtle actually has a midlane that takes pressure away from his lane and a better support than Sneaky does. Sneaky was basically 1v5 carrying the for the whole first part of the season, and even now you can see that C9 still relies on sneaky a lot (probably too much). Turtle barely ever wins lane, yet cleans up kills that are set up for him, which is his job, but he's not carrying games like Sneaky does. Because Sneaky is on a team with worse players, he's able to stand out more as the carry on his team. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand. When his teammates were better, relative to his own skill, people thought he was the one being carried while Meteos and Ballz did all the work. Perception is key to the eye test. No, turtle is just worse. The eye test is actually watching the fucking games and looking at how each player is playing the games, and you can see that Turtle does worse in each game compared to Sneaky. Turtle's csing and positioning are just flat out worse than Sneaky's. Turtle looks as "good" as he does BECAUSE he's on TSM. Put him on any weaker team and the disparity between the two players would be even bigger. I disagree. I think it's arguable that Sneaky is a better player, but that they are both fantastic ADCs, and that the numbers reflect that. It's really not arguable lol, maybe 1+ years ago you could have argued that turtle was better, but sneaky has been consistently better than turtle since at least last year. Of course it is, because the objective numbers that we have available to us demonstrate that while they have different strengths and overall comparable numbers. I think Sneaky is probably the better ADC, but it's not as clear-cut and dry as you make it out to be, and there are legitimate arguments in favour of Turtle being the better of the two. AND It could be heavily dependent on the meta and compositions chosen by their teams. One ADC could be capable of hard-carrying under conditions that the other would simply get by, or fail. But we'd need more in-depth composition analysis and statistics that I'm not sure are available.
I'd really like to hear the arguments of turtle being better than Sneaky.
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I'd say sneaky is a tier above WT. In NA I'd say sneaky is in his own tier.
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On April 13 2015 12:17 Shiznick wrote:
I'd say sneaky is a tier above WT. In NA I'd say sneaky is in his own tier.
IDK, Did you -see- some of piglet's kallista moves? I think people are underestimating the TL roster becuase of their inconsistency, but watch this spot, those guys are going to come back big in the summer split 
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On April 13 2015 12:08 IMoperator wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 12:04 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:55 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:51 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:41 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:33 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 11:27 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 11:19 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 10:57 IMoperator wrote:On April 13 2015 10:54 Nemireck wrote:
[quote]
Because objective stats don't matter. Only the eye-test. wildturtle had a better kda than Sneaky did, i guess he's just objectively the better player right? Actually Sneaky has a much higher KDA than WildTurtle does this season. With 85/25/87 (6.8) and 76% kill participation. Turtle's line is 108/41/99 (4.9) with a 73% kill participation. Turtle has the most kills in the NA LCS this season and second-most damage though. Faced with those kinds of numbers, I'd find it hard to argue either are bad, and probably are very close being around the same overall playing level. Just 2 splits ago, people thought Sneaky was C9's weak link while I was trying to tell people he might be the best ADC in NA. For the same reasons. I can't even take you seriously anymore, Sneaky is on an entirely different level compared to turtle. turtle actually has a midlane that takes pressure away from his lane and a better support than Sneaky does. Sneaky was basically 1v5 carrying the for the whole first part of the season, and even now you can see that C9 still relies on sneaky a lot (probably too much). Turtle barely ever wins lane, yet cleans up kills that are set up for him, which is his job, but he's not carrying games like Sneaky does. Because Sneaky is on a team with worse players, he's able to stand out more as the carry on his team. It shouldn't be that difficult to understand. When his teammates were better, relative to his own skill, people thought he was the one being carried while Meteos and Ballz did all the work. Perception is key to the eye test. No, turtle is just worse. The eye test is actually watching the fucking games and looking at how each player is playing the games, and you can see that Turtle does worse in each game compared to Sneaky. Turtle's csing and positioning are just flat out worse than Sneaky's. Turtle looks as "good" as he does BECAUSE he's on TSM. Put him on any weaker team and the disparity between the two players would be even bigger. I disagree. I think it's arguable that Sneaky is a better player, but that they are both fantastic ADCs, and that the numbers reflect that. It's really not arguable lol, maybe 1+ years ago you could have argued that turtle was better, but sneaky has been consistently better than turtle since at least last year. Of course it is, because the objective numbers that we have available to us demonstrate that while they have different strengths and overall comparable numbers. I think Sneaky is probably the better ADC, but it's not as clear-cut and dry as you make it out to be, and there are legitimate arguments in favour of Turtle being the better of the two. AND It could be heavily dependent on the meta and compositions chosen by their teams. One ADC could be capable of hard-carrying under conditions that the other would simply get by, or fail. But we'd need more in-depth composition analysis and statistics that I'm not sure are available. I'd really like to hear the arguments of turtle being better than Sneaky.
Well the obvious one would be that since the ADC's primary role on the team is to deal damage to the opposing team, the fact that WildTurtle dealt 20k more, to go along with 25 more kills and 12 more assists than Sneaky during the split would put him into the running. But that would be ignoring the fact that C9 games had less kills than any other team's games, which makes it even more impressive that Sneaky "only" did 20k less damage throughout a collection of games where overall damage dealt during the game was lower than any other team's games.
Edit: But what I didn't consider is looking at the average game length as well to compare Damage per Minute, which really amplifies WildTurtle's advantage in this stat, making it a truly legitimate argument to make in this discussion.
Again, it's my opinion based on the stats I have available to me that Sneaky IS the better ADC. But it's not as clear-cut as you say it is.
Of course, my original statement regarding the eye test had nothing to do with whether Sneaky or WildTurtle is better. It was answering the question someone posed, wondering why people think WildTurtle is "bad", which he objectively is not.
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On April 13 2015 12:19 Raneth wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 12:17 Shiznick wrote:
I'd say sneaky is a tier above WT. In NA I'd say sneaky is in his own tier. IDK, Did you -see- some of piglet's kallista moves? I think people are underestimating the TL roster becuase of their inconsistency, but watch this spot, those guys are going to come back big in the summer split
They looked great for 5 games during the playoffs. But Solo Nautilus invades are OP.
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Sneaky also gets a significant amount more of C9's resources than WT does. I think Sneaky is better than WT but I don't think the disparity is as insanely wide as people think. I actually think WT is the backbone of TSM considering TSM's late game is all about how he does.
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EPT
