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On April 13 2015 10:06 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:05 las91 wrote:On April 13 2015 10:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:04 iCanada wrote:On April 13 2015 09:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:54 las91 wrote:On April 13 2015 09:53 Sunaj wrote:On April 13 2015 09:49 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 09:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:42 Nemireck wrote:
[quote]
What did Impact achieve that Dyrus didn't do, but better? Uh, staying relevant in the game despite a fucked up lane swaps and jungle routes? Whereas if Dyrus is put into the same situation he just goes 0-3 and is out of the game basically. Watch the kennen game. TIP should have lost that game in 20 minutes as well but Impact brought them back with a great teleport. Dyrus gets too much credit because they end up winning in the end so it's all ok. How do you figure that Impact stayed relevant in any of those games after Game 1? Look at the Kennen game? Impact was 2/3/2 to Dyrus's 0/2/14. Dyrus had more gold and a higher KDA in 3 out of 4 games, played a much more impactful role in mid and late-game teamfights as well. What games were you watching? I was watching a game where 4 guys hard carried 1 feeder, while 1 guy couldn't carry 4 feeders. I wonder why Dyrus did better lomo. Dyrus hardly fed outside of game 1 and 2. Impact was given the tools to carry and couldn't do it, Dyrus went even or slightly behind in game 3 and 4 in a matchup that everyone said would be him getting dumpstered. Korean apologist so strong even in NA LCS results Lmao I love these people who didn't watch the games like at all. What matchup? Did you not see that Dyrus had lane swaps in both games with very good matchups because Adrian left lane early on? After that all he had to do was farm up but somehow he managed to give up a solo kill in the sion game. Both those games were dictated much more by Lustboy and Santorin's executioin in the lane swap against Rush's jungle. Sure, but Dyrus always had the wave pushing towards Impact anytime there was a big fight, and he also pinned all the gold from TiP with him in the top lane in all 4 games. He wasn't playing a champion who was supposed to have lane dominance or be a large threat. He was put on champions intended to play supporting roles, and did that exactly. That was TSM's strategy... Dyrus absorbs pressure on a support champ and holds Impact in lane with him so they could victimize Rushes overaggression on the rest of the map. He did his job. And many people could have done it better. Like who? Certainly not Impact this series. Do you really think if Impact was on TSM he would have performed worse than Dyrus?
I think TSM can integrate pretty much anyone and keep top 2 in NA, so yeah he'd probably do better than Dyrus
I'm not arguing Dyrus is better I'm arguing he did his job better this series, big difference for the various posters that seem to have some serious reading impediments
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On April 13 2015 10:00 RagequitBM wrote:
While I think Dyrus is okay, using KDA to justify that is extremely dumb. The team that wins is guaranteed more gold, and KDA in 95% of games. That's why that team ended up winning...
I don't think it's all that dumb at all.
No other player in League of Legends is as heavily focused and set behind as Dyrus is, despite the fact that targeting him and shutting him down early doesn't actually help you beat TSM. One of the reasons, yes, is that focusing so hard on Dyrus relieves pressure on mid, and TSM uses that to pressure the opposing mid lane and get Bjergsen going. But the other reason is that even after being set behind in most games, Dyrus consistently comes back in the mid and late game, and has a huge impact on teamfights with good initiations and/or great peel for his carries.
There aren't many other top laners that I've seen that fall behind as much as Dyrus does, but still enter fights later in the game and help their team win, rather than feeding even more kills.
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On April 13 2015 10:05 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:04 iCanada wrote:On April 13 2015 09:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:54 las91 wrote:On April 13 2015 09:53 Sunaj wrote:On April 13 2015 09:49 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 09:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:42 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 09:41 Itsmedudeman wrote:
[quote]
Zion isn't the right choice, but there are many better support/utility top laners than Dyrus. Look at what Impact managed to accomplish this series despite getting almost no pressure and terrible lane matchups. Impact was the original and better version of Dyrus. Quas is also the same. What did Impact achieve that Dyrus didn't do, but better? Uh, staying relevant in the game despite a fucked up lane swaps and jungle routes? Whereas if Dyrus is put into the same situation he just goes 0-3 and is out of the game basically. Watch the kennen game. TIP should have lost that game in 20 minutes as well but Impact brought them back with a great teleport. Dyrus gets too much credit because they end up winning in the end so it's all ok. How do you figure that Impact stayed relevant in any of those games after Game 1? Look at the Kennen game? Impact was 2/3/2 to Dyrus's 0/2/14. Dyrus had more gold and a higher KDA in 3 out of 4 games, played a much more impactful role in mid and late-game teamfights as well. What games were you watching? I was watching a game where 4 guys hard carried 1 feeder, while 1 guy couldn't carry 4 feeders. I wonder why Dyrus did better lomo. Dyrus hardly fed outside of game 1 and 2. Impact was given the tools to carry and couldn't do it, Dyrus went even or slightly behind in game 3 and 4 in a matchup that everyone said would be him getting dumpstered. Korean apologist so strong even in NA LCS results Lmao I love these people who didn't watch the games like at all. What matchup? Did you not see that Dyrus had lane swaps in both games with very good matchups because Adrian left lane early on? After that all he had to do was farm up but somehow he managed to give up a solo kill in the sion game. Both those games were dictated much more by Lustboy and Santorin's executioin in the lane swap against Rush's jungle. Sure, but Dyrus always had the wave pushing towards Impact anytime there was a big fight, and he also pinned all the gold from TiP with him in the top lane in all 4 games. He wasn't playing a champion who was supposed to have lane dominance or be a large threat. He was put on champions intended to play supporting roles, and did that exactly. That was TSM's strategy... Dyrus absorbs pressure on a support champ and holds Impact in lane with him so they could victimize Rushes overaggression on the rest of the map. He did his job. And many people could have done it better. Like who? Certainly not Impact this series.
what are you talking about? if impact and dyrus swapped positions tsm nothing would have changed at worst, and most likely impact would have done a better job.
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On April 13 2015 10:05 las91 wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:04 iCanada wrote:On April 13 2015 09:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:54 las91 wrote:On April 13 2015 09:53 Sunaj wrote:On April 13 2015 09:49 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 09:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:42 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 09:41 Itsmedudeman wrote:
[quote]
Zion isn't the right choice, but there are many better support/utility top laners than Dyrus. Look at what Impact managed to accomplish this series despite getting almost no pressure and terrible lane matchups. Impact was the original and better version of Dyrus. Quas is also the same. What did Impact achieve that Dyrus didn't do, but better? Uh, staying relevant in the game despite a fucked up lane swaps and jungle routes? Whereas if Dyrus is put into the same situation he just goes 0-3 and is out of the game basically. Watch the kennen game. TIP should have lost that game in 20 minutes as well but Impact brought them back with a great teleport. Dyrus gets too much credit because they end up winning in the end so it's all ok. How do you figure that Impact stayed relevant in any of those games after Game 1? Look at the Kennen game? Impact was 2/3/2 to Dyrus's 0/2/14. Dyrus had more gold and a higher KDA in 3 out of 4 games, played a much more impactful role in mid and late-game teamfights as well. What games were you watching? I was watching a game where 4 guys hard carried 1 feeder, while 1 guy couldn't carry 4 feeders. I wonder why Dyrus did better lomo. Dyrus hardly fed outside of game 1 and 2. Impact was given the tools to carry and couldn't do it, Dyrus went even or slightly behind in game 3 and 4 in a matchup that everyone said would be him getting dumpstered. Korean apologist so strong even in NA LCS results Lmao I love these people who didn't watch the games like at all. What matchup? Did you not see that Dyrus had lane swaps in both games with very good matchups because Adrian left lane early on? After that all he had to do was farm up but somehow he managed to give up a solo kill in the sion game. Both those games were dictated much more by Lustboy and Santorin's executioin in the lane swap against Rush's jungle. Sure, but Dyrus always had the wave pushing towards Impact anytime there was a big fight, and he also pinned all the gold from TiP with him in the top lane in all 4 games. He wasn't playing a champion who was supposed to have lane dominance or be a large threat. He was put on champions intended to play supporting roles, and did that exactly. That was TSM's strategy... Dyrus absorbs pressure on a support champ and holds Impact in lane with him so they could victimize Rushes overaggression on the rest of the map. He did his job. And many people could have done it better. Like who? Certainly not Impact this series.
Quas, impact, balls to only name NA 100%. Added benefit that those players can also not only play supportively but also carry the game if needed and if the champion picks are right.
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On April 13 2015 10:08 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:05 las91 wrote:On April 13 2015 10:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:04 iCanada wrote:On April 13 2015 09:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:54 las91 wrote:On April 13 2015 09:53 Sunaj wrote:On April 13 2015 09:49 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 09:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:42 Nemireck wrote:
[quote]
What did Impact achieve that Dyrus didn't do, but better? Uh, staying relevant in the game despite a fucked up lane swaps and jungle routes? Whereas if Dyrus is put into the same situation he just goes 0-3 and is out of the game basically. Watch the kennen game. TIP should have lost that game in 20 minutes as well but Impact brought them back with a great teleport. Dyrus gets too much credit because they end up winning in the end so it's all ok. How do you figure that Impact stayed relevant in any of those games after Game 1? Look at the Kennen game? Impact was 2/3/2 to Dyrus's 0/2/14. Dyrus had more gold and a higher KDA in 3 out of 4 games, played a much more impactful role in mid and late-game teamfights as well. What games were you watching? I was watching a game where 4 guys hard carried 1 feeder, while 1 guy couldn't carry 4 feeders. I wonder why Dyrus did better lomo. Dyrus hardly fed outside of game 1 and 2. Impact was given the tools to carry and couldn't do it, Dyrus went even or slightly behind in game 3 and 4 in a matchup that everyone said would be him getting dumpstered. Korean apologist so strong even in NA LCS results Lmao I love these people who didn't watch the games like at all. What matchup? Did you not see that Dyrus had lane swaps in both games with very good matchups because Adrian left lane early on? After that all he had to do was farm up but somehow he managed to give up a solo kill in the sion game. Both those games were dictated much more by Lustboy and Santorin's executioin in the lane swap against Rush's jungle. Sure, but Dyrus always had the wave pushing towards Impact anytime there was a big fight, and he also pinned all the gold from TiP with him in the top lane in all 4 games. He wasn't playing a champion who was supposed to have lane dominance or be a large threat. He was put on champions intended to play supporting roles, and did that exactly. That was TSM's strategy... Dyrus absorbs pressure on a support champ and holds Impact in lane with him so they could victimize Rushes overaggression on the rest of the map. He did his job. And many people could have done it better. Like who? Certainly not Impact this series. Quas, impact, balls to only name NA 100%. Added benefit that those players can also not only play supportively but also carry the game if needed and if the champion picks are right.
I dont agree that Quas or Balls would do better, Balls has the same champion pool issues with the added downside of not playing supportive champions that well whereas Quas is a #3 or #2 on his team and requires more farm share from his team than Dyrus does to succeed.
and rofl "if the champion picks are right they can carry the game" well I'd better fucking hope so if they're given carry champions they can carry
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On April 13 2015 10:06 Ansibled wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:05 las91 wrote:On April 13 2015 10:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:04 iCanada wrote:On April 13 2015 09:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:54 las91 wrote:On April 13 2015 09:53 Sunaj wrote:On April 13 2015 09:49 Nemireck wrote:On April 13 2015 09:46 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 09:42 Nemireck wrote:
[quote]
What did Impact achieve that Dyrus didn't do, but better? Uh, staying relevant in the game despite a fucked up lane swaps and jungle routes? Whereas if Dyrus is put into the same situation he just goes 0-3 and is out of the game basically. Watch the kennen game. TIP should have lost that game in 20 minutes as well but Impact brought them back with a great teleport. Dyrus gets too much credit because they end up winning in the end so it's all ok. How do you figure that Impact stayed relevant in any of those games after Game 1? Look at the Kennen game? Impact was 2/3/2 to Dyrus's 0/2/14. Dyrus had more gold and a higher KDA in 3 out of 4 games, played a much more impactful role in mid and late-game teamfights as well. What games were you watching? I was watching a game where 4 guys hard carried 1 feeder, while 1 guy couldn't carry 4 feeders. I wonder why Dyrus did better lomo. Dyrus hardly fed outside of game 1 and 2. Impact was given the tools to carry and couldn't do it, Dyrus went even or slightly behind in game 3 and 4 in a matchup that everyone said would be him getting dumpstered. Korean apologist so strong even in NA LCS results Lmao I love these people who didn't watch the games like at all. What matchup? Did you not see that Dyrus had lane swaps in both games with very good matchups because Adrian left lane early on? After that all he had to do was farm up but somehow he managed to give up a solo kill in the sion game. Both those games were dictated much more by Lustboy and Santorin's executioin in the lane swap against Rush's jungle. Sure, but Dyrus always had the wave pushing towards Impact anytime there was a big fight, and he also pinned all the gold from TiP with him in the top lane in all 4 games. He wasn't playing a champion who was supposed to have lane dominance or be a large threat. He was put on champions intended to play supporting roles, and did that exactly. That was TSM's strategy... Dyrus absorbs pressure on a support champ and holds Impact in lane with him so they could victimize Rushes overaggression on the rest of the map. He did his job. And many people could have done it better. Like who? Certainly not Impact this series. Do you really think if Impact was on TSM he would have performed worse than Dyrus?
If he was targeted as heavily as Dyrus consistently is, yes.
I think teams really need to rethink this "beat TSM by killing Dyrus" philosophy. It clearly doesn't work. In fact, the games where TSM seem to struggle the most are the games where Turtle gets caught out and shut down early.
I'm not sure targeting Bjerg is an option, he always has Lustboy and Santorin standing 5 feet away to save his ass when he gets focus. Also, there are multiple examples of games where he's played a rough early game, then caught up with solo kills or hard-carried by Turtle instead.
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I dont know how this is a discussion. If TSM want a world class team they would need to swap out dyrus and turtle. If C9 want one they need a new mid and support.
It isnt personal it is just reality
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On April 13 2015 10:10 Sleight wrote:
I dont know how this is a discussion. If TSM want a world class team they would need to swap out dyrus and turtle. If C9 want one they need a new mid and support.
It isnt personal it is just reality
I agree about that, but I don't agree Impact would be a "world-class" substitution for Dyrus.
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O look ppl hating on dyrus again. Lmfao.
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TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world.
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On April 13 2015 10:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:
TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world.
That's a stretch which there is like no precedent for.
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On April 13 2015 10:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:
TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world.
I cant believe anyone believes that. Tsm are not a contender for World Champion right now. That is my definition of world class. There are no worlds in which TSM win if it happened with this lineup at this time.
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On April 13 2015 10:18 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:
TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world. I cant believe anyone believes that. Tsm are not a contender for World Champion right now. That is my definition of world class. There are no worlds in which TSM win if it happened with this lineup at this time.
I never said they were contenders? If your definition for world class is only that you can WIN the entire championship, then there are only 2 world class teams right now.
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tsm literally just won the most recent international tournament. Like shit on them as much as you want, and make any excuses you can, but basically any other team you pick either has less recent international exposure to rate them with, or they lost, probably to tsm.
tsm tsm tsm go na woo
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On April 13 2015 10:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:18 Sleight wrote:On April 13 2015 10:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:
TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world. I cant believe anyone believes that. Tsm are not a contender for World Champion right now. That is my definition of world class. There are no worlds in which TSM win if it happened with this lineup at this time. I never said they were contenders? If your definition for world class is only that you can WIN the entire championship, then there are only 2 world class teams right now.
There are three teams in Korea. At least three teams in China that all could win worlds. There are no teams in Eu, Na, or Taiwan that could.
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On April 13 2015 10:23 Sleight wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:18 Sleight wrote:On April 13 2015 10:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:
TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world. I cant believe anyone believes that. Tsm are not a contender for World Champion right now. That is my definition of world class. There are no worlds in which TSM win if it happened with this lineup at this time. I never said they were contenders? If your definition for world class is only that you can WIN the entire championship, then there are only 2 world class teams right now. There are three teams in Korea. At least three teams in China that all could win worlds. There are no teams in Eu, Na, or Taiwan that could.
3 teams from Korea and China that could win worlds.
Hold on a second. I want you to picture Snake and CJ Entus winning Worlds. I think I've proven my point. We've already seen what GE can do on the international stage. Lose to an 8th place LPL team when there are huge stakes. Even if it was a bo5 and we give them the benefit of the doubt they win in 5. They still went to game 5 against an 8th place LPL team. You think TSM aren't capable of hanging with a team like that?
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On April 13 2015 10:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:18 Sleight wrote:On April 13 2015 10:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:
TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world. I cant believe anyone believes that. Tsm are not a contender for World Champion right now. That is my definition of world class. There are no worlds in which TSM win if it happened with this lineup at this time. I never said they were contenders? If your definition for world class is only that you can WIN the entire championship, then there are only 2 world class teams right now.
It's also not completely out of the realm of possibility.
Incredibly unlikely, to be sure, but not impossible. It's not like this is Starcraft where the relative strength between Korea vs rest of the world is an insurmountable mountain to get over. They were already able to compete last year, with an objectively weaker team than the one they have now. We've seen them play well in isolated games against contenders in the past, including a couple of clean wins and quite a few losses where they were able to compete. The addition of Santorin to the team, and the improved communication with Lustboy as his english has gotten better is also noticeable, and are huge improvements to the team overall.
And that doesn't even begin to address the improvements in behind-the-scenes infrastructure that Regi has put in place this year. Those improvements have greatly improved their strategical decision making and composition structure as well. Bjergsen's shotcalling hasn't improved just because Bjergsen got better, it's improved because he's also had an analyst/coach behind the scenes communicating with him and forcing him to reconsider many of his own preconceived notions about the game.
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TSM can't get much better simply because there is no competition in NA. The last team that really brought up regional strength to NA was LMQ. The issue now with TSM is literally the same that plagued LMS where you are the biggest fish in a small pond. TSM can import all the players they want and do w/e but look to the example of NA as a whole. Has any player actually stepped up over this season, except arguably Bjergsen? (And even then I'd attribute that because XWX caused a good amount of that last season).
Will TSM bring a good scrap internationally? I'd think so. Regional differences aside, League is a dynamic enough game now that the winner of bo3 isn't necessarily the "best team". But I don't think TSM will make top four Worlds without good bracket luck. (which tbh is what can be argued about Fnatic S3).
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On April 13 2015 10:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:23 Sleight wrote:On April 13 2015 10:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:18 Sleight wrote:On April 13 2015 10:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:
TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world. I cant believe anyone believes that. Tsm are not a contender for World Champion right now. That is my definition of world class. There are no worlds in which TSM win if it happened with this lineup at this time. I never said they were contenders? If your definition for world class is only that you can WIN the entire championship, then there are only 2 world class teams right now. There are three teams in Korea. At least three teams in China that all could win worlds. There are no teams in Eu, Na, or Taiwan that could. 3 teams from Korea and China that could win worlds. Hold on a second. I want you to picture Snake and CJ Entus winning Worlds. I think I've proven my point. We've already seen what GE can do on the international stage. Lose to an 8th place LPL team when there are huge stakes. Even if it was a bo5 and we give them the benefit of the doubt they win in 5. They still went to game 5 against an 8th place LPL team. You think TSM aren't capable of hanging with a team like that?
I think that GET would take TSM 3:0 actually. I don't know why people keep harping that TiP's style is good against TSM when TSM has always beaten teams that don't have good rotations and good teamplay. The NA team that has given TSM the greatest challenge historically and arguably even now is still C9 and that sure as fck isn't off brute force laning and random aggro play. TSM against teams like TiP and WE is almost always a lock for TSM simply because of play style.
The pattern for TSM's play book has NEVER changed. Camp mid lane till mid can make plays to snowball bot. Hope Dyrus can do something in the meantime. This literally hasn't changed since TRM got replaced by Dyrus.
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On April 13 2015 10:27 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On April 13 2015 10:23 Sleight wrote:On April 13 2015 10:20 Itsmedudeman wrote:On April 13 2015 10:18 Sleight wrote:On April 13 2015 10:15 Itsmedudeman wrote:
TSM are a world class team already. I think they can beat any team not named SKT and EDG right now. What more could you ask for really? If you want more than that then you need the players who could be arguably best in their roles in the world. I cant believe anyone believes that. Tsm are not a contender for World Champion right now. That is my definition of world class. There are no worlds in which TSM win if it happened with this lineup at this time. I never said they were contenders? If your definition for world class is only that you can WIN the entire championship, then there are only 2 world class teams right now. There are three teams in Korea. At least three teams in China that all could win worlds. There are no teams in Eu, Na, or Taiwan that could. 3 teams from Korea and China that could win worlds. Hold on a second. I want you to picture Snake and CJ Entus winning Worlds. I think I've proven my point. We've already seen what GE can do on the international stage. Lose to an 8th place LPL team when there are huge stakes. Even if it was a bo5 and we give them the benefit of the doubt they win in 5. They still went to game 5 against an 8th place LPL team. You think TSM aren't capable of hanging with a team like that?
Absolutely CJ or Snake could win worlds with a decent draw. If SKT and EDG end up on the other side of the bracket, either of those teams could reasonably show up and win a Bo5 against either of those. Not likely but definitely doable. Could TSM? Nope. Could Fnatic? Nope.
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EPT
