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On March 16 2015 07:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 06:58 Azarkon wrote:
The difficulty of accepting TSM as a world class team reminds me of the same difficulty in Dota 2 when it came to accepting EG as a world class team, and afterward the best team in the world, in the wake of DAC. When a region - in this case NA - has been seen as a joke for so long by the "esports community" it is indeed difficult to believe that it is ever capable of escaping that level. But such are the facts: in both Dota and LoL, NA has become world class, while EU has declined. can you link me to posts claiming china was still stronger after DAC happened? because i don't remember that reaction happening. it was more surprise than denial, though most people seemed to believe pre-DAC that china was still on top.
I made no statements about China. It's about perceptions of NA being on top.
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On March 16 2015 07:00 crimethinking wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 07:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On March 16 2015 06:58 Azarkon wrote:
The difficulty of accepting TSM as a world class team reminds me of the same difficulty in Dota 2 when it came to accepting EG as a world class team, and afterward the best team in the world, in the wake of DAC. When a region - in this case NA - has been seen as a joke for so long by the "esports community" it is indeed difficult to believe that it is ever capable of escaping that level. But such are the facts: in both Dota and LoL, NA has become world class, while EU has declined. can you link me to posts claiming china was still stronger after DAC happened? because i don't remember that reaction happening. it was more surprise than denial, though most people seemed to believe pre-DAC that china was still on top. Look at who you are replying to, and don't do it. Ever.
can people stop with the fucking azarkon-kneejerking? i'm perfectly aware of his reputation and history, but i still find posts like yours much more revolting than anything he's ever posted, correct or incorrect.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 16 2015 07:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 06:58 Azarkon wrote:
The difficulty of accepting TSM as a world class team reminds me of the same difficulty in Dota 2 when it came to accepting EG as a world class team, and afterward the best team in the world, in the wake of DAC. When a region - in this case NA - has been seen as a joke for so long by the "esports community" it is indeed difficult to believe that it is ever capable of escaping that level. But such are the facts: in both Dota and LoL, NA has become world class, while EU has declined. can you link me to posts claiming china was still stronger after DAC happened? because i don't remember that reaction happening. it was more surprise than denial, though most people seemed to believe pre-DAC that china was still on top.
There were definitely a few salty people who still thought China was stronger.
Though really, I think most of the resistance to EG being the "best team in the world" was actually from Secret fans, not Chinese fans.
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Baa?21244 Posts
On March 16 2015 06:56 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 06:55 zer0das wrote:
As much as it pains me to admit it, TSM is probably the best team in NA and EU currently. I thought that was clear before the tournament.
Pfft, H2K and Impulse are gonna shit all over TSM.
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On March 16 2015 07:01 Azarkon wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 07:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On March 16 2015 06:58 Azarkon wrote:
The difficulty of accepting TSM as a world class team reminds me of the same difficulty in Dota 2 when it came to accepting EG as a world class team, and afterward the best team in the world, in the wake of DAC. When a region - in this case NA - has been seen as a joke for so long by the "esports community" it is indeed difficult to believe that it is ever capable of escaping that level. But such are the facts: in both Dota and LoL, NA has become world class, while EU has declined. can you link me to posts claiming china was still stronger after DAC happened? because i don't remember that reaction happening. it was more surprise than denial, though most people seemed to believe pre-DAC that china was still on top. I made no statements about China. It's about perceptions of NA being on top.
again, can you link posts denying that EG was on top? the closest thing i saw was people claiming secret were still competitive against them, which isn't a far stretch. i didn't even see many people try to claim secret was stronger than EG after the dust settled.
overall, i don't think it's a good analogy at all, mainly because DAC actually featured all of the strongest teams in dota, while it's clear this IEM didn't
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On March 16 2015 06:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 06:53 KissBlade wrote:
Lol TSM world class team (from one IEM) is so full of irony I'm not sure that people are even serious when they claim it. Did we forget San Jose just a bit ago? San Jose was so completely different and right after a long break between the seasons on a new patch with a new meta. TSM were clearly the strongest performers at this tournament. Bjergsen dominated his lane just about every single game including Coco. His performance was honestly S3 Faker level at this tournament. Hell, even Faker didn't dominate this hard and consistently at international tournaments and Santorin didn't even camp for him.
A few games does not make how you should judge a team  . S3 Faker had to compete against S3 Cool, Ryu, Dade, etc. The "best" midlaner Bjergsen had to compete against this tourney was Xiye (who just stepped out of soloQ in a bottom of their region team). Bjergsen is really good and obviously TSM looked the best this tourney but look at the teams in their run ...
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On March 16 2015 07:00 Caiada wrote:
This tourney had pretty weak mids overall though....
Coco and Kuro that people were claiming as 2nd best mids in the world along with Ezhoon? Both players go toe to toe with Faker and both can go without falling behind in lane. I'm glad that the stupid ass myth of KOREAN PLAYERS ARE LITERALLY ALL TOP 5 IN THE WORLD AT THEIR POSITION BECAUSE KOREAN is dispelled.
Why do you think people are now even claiming that this tourny had weak mids now rather than before the tournament? Oh yeah, because Bjergsen and Xiye made them look like clowns.
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Russian Federation3631 Posts
On March 16 2015 07:02 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 06:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On March 16 2015 06:53 KissBlade wrote:
Lol TSM world class team (from one IEM) is so full of irony I'm not sure that people are even serious when they claim it. Did we forget San Jose just a bit ago? San Jose was so completely different and right after a long break between the seasons on a new patch with a new meta. TSM were clearly the strongest performers at this tournament. Bjergsen dominated his lane just about every single game including Coco. His performance was honestly S3 Faker level at this tournament. Hell, even Faker didn't dominate this hard and consistently at international tournaments and Santorin didn't even camp for him. A few games does not make how you should judge a team . S3 Faker had to compete against S3 Cool, Ryu, Dade, etc. The "best" midlaner Bjergsen had to compete against this tourney was Xiye (who just stepped out of soloQ in a bottom of their region team). Bjergsen is really good and obviously TSM looked the best this tourney but look at the teams in their run ...
to be fair, I don't think it was general perception on this forum that TSM would even make it out of groups at all..
i've not been more confused by a tournament's results, ever
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On March 16 2015 07:01 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 07:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On March 16 2015 06:58 Azarkon wrote:
The difficulty of accepting TSM as a world class team reminds me of the same difficulty in Dota 2 when it came to accepting EG as a world class team, and afterward the best team in the world, in the wake of DAC. When a region - in this case NA - has been seen as a joke for so long by the "esports community" it is indeed difficult to believe that it is ever capable of escaping that level. But such are the facts: in both Dota and LoL, NA has become world class, while EU has declined. can you link me to posts claiming china was still stronger after DAC happened? because i don't remember that reaction happening. it was more surprise than denial, though most people seemed to believe pre-DAC that china was still on top. There were definitely a few salty people who still thought China was stronger. Though really, I think most of the resistance to EG being the "best team in the world" was actually from Secret fans, not Chinese fans.
The main resistance against NA being on top has persistently been from EU>NA proponents. Chinese and Korean fans tend to just lump NA and EU together as the West, and measure themselves accordingly. I'm talking specifically about the community's difficulty with accepting that NA is at the top, which is primarily a result of the entrenched idea that NA is a "joke region" when it comes to eSports.
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On March 16 2015 07:01 Carnivorous Sheep wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 06:56 TheYango wrote:On March 16 2015 06:55 zer0das wrote:
As much as it pains me to admit it, TSM is probably the best team in NA and EU currently. I thought that was clear before the tournament. Pfft, H2K and Impulse are gonna shit all over TSM.
you are really funny
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On March 16 2015 07:04 419 wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 07:02 KissBlade wrote:On March 16 2015 06:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On March 16 2015 06:53 KissBlade wrote:
Lol TSM world class team (from one IEM) is so full of irony I'm not sure that people are even serious when they claim it. Did we forget San Jose just a bit ago? San Jose was so completely different and right after a long break between the seasons on a new patch with a new meta. TSM were clearly the strongest performers at this tournament. Bjergsen dominated his lane just about every single game including Coco. His performance was honestly S3 Faker level at this tournament. Hell, even Faker didn't dominate this hard and consistently at international tournaments and Santorin didn't even camp for him. A few games does not make how you should judge a team . S3 Faker had to compete against S3 Cool, Ryu, Dade, etc. The "best" midlaner Bjergsen had to compete against this tourney was Xiye (who just stepped out of soloQ in a bottom of their region team). Bjergsen is really good and obviously TSM looked the best this tourney but look at the teams in their run ... to be fair, I don't think it was general perception on this forum that TSM would even make it out of groups at all.
I didn't but I thought when GET collapsed, TSM would have this tourney, especially after game 1 against WE. I still think GET should've won if they didn't derp so hard against WE game 2.
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On March 16 2015 07:04 Itsmedudeman wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 07:00 Caiada wrote:
This tourney had pretty weak mids overall though.... Coco and Kuro that people were claiming as 2nd best mids in the world along with Ezhoon? Both players go toe to toe with Faker and both can go without falling behind in lane. I'm glad that the stupid ass myth of KOREAN PLAYERS ARE LITERALLY ALL TOP 5 IN THE WORLD AT THEIR POSITION BECAUSE KOREAN is dispelled.
Koreans in China still count as Koreans. China might break top 5 though.
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United States47024 Posts
On March 16 2015 07:04 419 wrote:
to be fair, I don't think it was general perception on this forum that TSM would even make it out of groups at all.
I don't think that was the case at all. People expected WE to be shit as the last-place team in their region (like, even WE beating Gambit was already "unexpected" to some extent), and while they probably expected CJ to advance first from their group, I think only some particularly rabid EU fanboys would expect Gambit playing as they are to advance ahead of TSM.
Like, if they were in the other group, sure, but as is their group was definitely the easier of the two, and you had to have some SUPER delusional idea of relative regional strength to not believe TSM would make it out of groups.
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What top laner would you guys gave the best performance this tournament, I can't any games where a top dominated
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Fredy or Smeb. The real strugglers.
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On March 16 2015 07:02 KissBlade wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 06:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On March 16 2015 06:53 KissBlade wrote:
Lol TSM world class team (from one IEM) is so full of irony I'm not sure that people are even serious when they claim it. Did we forget San Jose just a bit ago? San Jose was so completely different and right after a long break between the seasons on a new patch with a new meta. TSM were clearly the strongest performers at this tournament. Bjergsen dominated his lane just about every single game including Coco. His performance was honestly S3 Faker level at this tournament. Hell, even Faker didn't dominate this hard and consistently at international tournaments and Santorin didn't even camp for him. A few games does not make how you should judge a team . S3 Faker had to compete against S3 Cool, Ryu, Dade, etc. The "best" midlaner Bjergsen had to compete against this tourney was Xiye (who just stepped out of soloQ in a bottom of their region team). Bjergsen is really good and obviously TSM looked the best this tourney but look at the teams in their run ...
A valid point, but they can only play the teams that present themselves, and they beat them decisively. If we're going to say TSM isn't world class, what do we say about GE? Do we give them a pass? Are any other korean teams still world class, and if not, does that mean that the entire quantity of "world class" teams resides in the upper echelons of the LPL? Because thats a kind of ridiculous definition of "world class" imo
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United States47024 Posts
On March 16 2015 07:05 KissBlade wrote:
I didn't but I thought when GET collapsed, TSM would have this tourney, especially after game 1 against WE. I still think GET should've won if they didn't derp so hard against WE game 2.
How the fuck did you think TSM wasn't going to get out of groups?
Going into the tournament, I thought 1) CJ 2) TSM was pretty much the only way to predict group B coming out. I don't see how anyone could *expect* TSM to do worse than Gambit and WE.
Even if you thought NA was a bad region, there's no way you could think that TSM would do THAT badly.
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On March 16 2015 07:02 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 07:01 Azarkon wrote:On March 16 2015 07:00 SpiritoftheTunA wrote:On March 16 2015 06:58 Azarkon wrote:
The difficulty of accepting TSM as a world class team reminds me of the same difficulty in Dota 2 when it came to accepting EG as a world class team, and afterward the best team in the world, in the wake of DAC. When a region - in this case NA - has been seen as a joke for so long by the "esports community" it is indeed difficult to believe that it is ever capable of escaping that level. But such are the facts: in both Dota and LoL, NA has become world class, while EU has declined. can you link me to posts claiming china was still stronger after DAC happened? because i don't remember that reaction happening. it was more surprise than denial, though most people seemed to believe pre-DAC that china was still on top. I made no statements about China. It's about perceptions of NA being on top. again, can you link posts denying that EG was on top? the closest thing i saw was people claiming secret were still competitive against them, which isn't a far stretch. i didn't even see many people try to claim secret was stronger than EG after the dust settled. overall, i don't think it's a good analogy at all, mainly because DAC actually featured all of the strongest teams in dota, while it's clear this IEM didn't
Oh, there were tons when EG was getting started in the Western scene, and tons of people believed going into TI 4 that EU was going to outperform NA - ie Alliance was going to step up, Fnatic was going to step up, Na'Vi was going to get to the finals again, etc. I'm not sure whether I have the patience to go back and find them, though. As for DAC results, even after EG beat Secret and VG, there was widespread belief that it was only because China was reshuffling and so the results didn't count, and we have to wait till TI 5 before saying EG is the best team, etc. Not to mention all the people who thought Secret was going to completely dump on EG and again regain the throne for EU. It's just a mental resistance I find again and again to NA being on top, even though in the last 1-2 years, I daresay NA has been outperforming EU in just about every major international tournament across MOBA games.
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On March 16 2015 07:08 Vonthin wrote:
What top laner would you guys gave the best performance this tournament, I can't any games where a top dominated
It was basically 'who can get camped the most and not lose the game', so Dyrus, I guess. Lawl.
On March 16 2015 07:10 MajorityofOne wrote:Show nested quote +On March 16 2015 07:02 KissBlade wrote:On March 16 2015 06:58 Itsmedudeman wrote:On March 16 2015 06:53 KissBlade wrote:
Lol TSM world class team (from one IEM) is so full of irony I'm not sure that people are even serious when they claim it. Did we forget San Jose just a bit ago? San Jose was so completely different and right after a long break between the seasons on a new patch with a new meta. TSM were clearly the strongest performers at this tournament. Bjergsen dominated his lane just about every single game including Coco. His performance was honestly S3 Faker level at this tournament. Hell, even Faker didn't dominate this hard and consistently at international tournaments and Santorin didn't even camp for him. A few games does not make how you should judge a team . S3 Faker had to compete against S3 Cool, Ryu, Dade, etc. The "best" midlaner Bjergsen had to compete against this tourney was Xiye (who just stepped out of soloQ in a bottom of their region team). Bjergsen is really good and obviously TSM looked the best this tourney but look at the teams in their run ... A valid point, but they can only play the teams that present themselves, and they beat them decisively. If we're going to say TSM isn't world class, what do we say about GE? Do we give them a pass? Are any other korean teams still world class, and if not, does that mean that the entire quantity of "world class" teams resides in the upper echelons of the LPL? Because thats a kind of ridiculous definition of "world class" imo
A lot here would seriously argue that :I
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EPT
