EPT[IEM] Katowice 2015 Discussion - Page 178
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RagequitBM
Canada2270 Posts
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Gahlo
United States35172 Posts
On March 15 2015 07:47 travis wrote: The bracket structure for this is weird but I guess I get it. It's a straight best of 5. The advantage of coming out of groups 1st is that you don't need to play the 1st place team form the other group. | ||
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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RaphaelSanzio
United States150 Posts
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On March 15 2015 07:54 RaphaelSanzio wrote: is there a place where I can watch xiye's solo q games? i would check op.gg but there is no china on there http://www.gosugamers.net/lol/streams/25838-wea-xiye?autoPlay=1 http://www.teamliquid.net/forum/starcraft-2/471648-douyu-tv-a-simple-guide I guess, this is his stream, but for VODs, idk. | ||
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chosenkerrigan
858 Posts
On March 15 2015 07:51 krndandaman wrote: man i missed we beating ge apparently xiye became a god today? geez need worlds to happen because nothing makes sense in the league world right now Xiye is No.1 on CN ladder and actually considered one of the up-and-coming Chinese mid-laners by a lot of fans, so it's not like he's a complete no-name. He definitely has the mechanics to make the most incredible outplays. I was one of the few that considered him one of the better mid-laners this tournament. | ||
Carnivorous Sheep
Baa?21244 Posts
On March 15 2015 08:27 chosenkerrigan wrote: Xiye is No.1 on CN ladder and actually considered one of the up-and-coming Chinese mid-laners by a lot of fans, so it's not like he's a complete no-name. He definitely has the mechanics to make the most incredible outplays. I was one of the few that considered him one of the better mid-laners this tournament. That's a bit one-sided. Let's recall he was in the WE.A team that peopel said would stomp LPL once they made it, before they ended the season last place. Xiye was benched after ~6 weeks of play. | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
it was always strange to bestow this 'best team world' title on GE tigers. they win with strategic execution and pick/ban, in other words preparation and coordination within the comfortable zone that their preparation makes possible. it's not like they are this super talented team who outplays everyone individually. the surprising thing about these GE vs WE games is definitely WE playing much better than their lpl performance. even so, korea is still overrated and that bubble bursted pretty fast. they are still the best at preparation and evolving strats through scrims but that works within their domestic leagues the most. edit, about the larger china vs kr debate. when the great poaching happened, a good portion of elite prospects were poached along with actual players. this means korea's soloqueue talent is pretty subpar and most top teams for this first season are retreads. even worse for korea is that this 'great poaching' is not a singular event. it's a clear value proposition for every player now and in the future who wish to go pro. do you be a slave in korea for some time, get some value tagged onto you, and then leave, or leave right now? some prospects who only made top of the ladder in the last couple months have left korea, and others will follow. only the major kespa teams can retain some of this talent by getting to them early, but any player who is also cognizant of their own value, perhaps through operating a stream, would be ditching the korean model. the mode of operation for korean esports has always featured heavy exploitation of its players, based on the assumption that the korean scene is the only scene thus the players are effective captives within this particular career path. yes, the chaebols have a lot of money, but they also operate in the prevailing culture of monopoly domestically. this culture affects their esports and their domestic labor market in general. bidding for talent and competing based on star power are pretty foreign concepts. instead, development and youth system is relied upon to replace what is shiny with what is functional. it honestly did not make much sense how GE tigers got good with such mediocre talent. makes even less sense how skt managed to play like a soloqueue team for half a season and lose their improvements seen from the way skt#2 emerged. i guess mandu was a bigger part of that team than people realized and their training method is heavily lacking. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
On March 15 2015 08:42 oneofthem wrote: xiye being #1 on the ladder isn't saying much considering he's been a pro for a year already with very little results. lots of other players have been #1 on the chinese ladder in that time. it was always strange to bestow this 'best team world' title on GE tigers. they win with strategic execution and pick/ban, in other words preparation and coordination within the comfortable zone that their preparation makes possible. it's not like they are this super talented team who outplays everyone individually. the surprising thing about these GE vs WE games is definitely WE playing much better than their lpl performance. even so, korea is still overrated and that bubble bursted pretty fast. they are still the best at preparation and evolving strats through scrims but that works within their domestic leagues the most. edit, about the larger china vs kr debate. when the great poaching happened, a good portion of elite prospects were poached along with actual players. this means korea's soloqueue talent is pretty subpar and most top teams for this first season are retreads. even worse for korea is that this 'great poaching' is not a singular event. it's a clear value proposition for every player now and in the future who wish to go pro. do you be a slave in korea for some time, get some value tagged onto you, and then leave, or leave right now? some prospects who only made top of the ladder in the last couple months have left korea, and others will follow. only the major kespa teams can retain some of this talent by getting to them early, but any player who is also cognizant of their own value, perhaps through operating a stream, would be ditching the korean model. the mode of operation for korean esports has always featured heavy exploitation of its players, based on the assumption that the korean scene is the only scene thus the players are effective captives within this particular career path. yes, the chaebols have a lot of money, but they also operate in the prevailing culture of monopoly domestically. this culture affects their esports and their domestic labor market in general. bidding for talent and competing based on star power are pretty foreign concepts. instead, development and youth system is relied upon to replace what is shiny with what is functional. it honestly did not make much sense how GE tigers got good with such mediocre talent. makes even less sense how skt managed to play like a soloqueue team for half a season and lose their improvements seen from the way skt#2 emerged. i guess mandu was a bigger part of that team than people realized and their training method is heavily lacking. Couldn't have said it any better. | ||
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CROrens
Croatia1005 Posts
On March 15 2015 06:30 Azarkon wrote: It's not that hard to make sense of. After S4, Korea lost the bulk of its tier 1 players to the exodus. On top of that, and invisible to the casual viewer, they've also lost a large chunk of their up and coming players - go check out the teams in LSPL, and you'll see that the top LSPL teams virtually all have "new Korean talent" that you haven't heard about because there is virtually no coverage of LSPL. Further, not only did 8/12 Chinese LPL teams recruit 2 Korean starters per team, but a few of these teams also recruited Korean subs. For example, LGD owns both Flame and Acorn. WE owns both Ninja and Mystic. With such a huge amount of talent - amounting to ~30 players by a few counts - leaving, it was bound to have a catastrophic effect on Korea's ability to keep itself competitive. That a team on the caliber of GE was able to be formed from the remnants, and was able to out perform all up to WE in IEM, is already a testament to just how large the gap was. But there are limits to what you're able to do with a handful of first-tier talent sprinkled among second-tier talent, and IEM proved it. This is interesting... Is this true? | ||
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CROrens
Croatia1005 Posts
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TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
whether this means they will be unable to compete internationally is still an open question though. there's still enough leftovers there to make things happen. Ge tigers and CJ were also not the best representatives for the international game. GE in particular performs best within a style of play they understand and korea produces its share of these meta reliant teams. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
it's just that when you look at Champions and see that the best players in the league currently were their mediocre to bad players a year ago, it seems to indicate perhaps they aren't as good as they were then. Compile that with the fact that all of the good players from a year ago are playing in china, and the results from the game today and it would seem to be a possible conclusion that China with Korea's best players might be better than a Champions where Space is considered a "good adc" I mean if somehow there was a match between GE and TSM tomorrow I think GE would still be the favorite (or if there was a rematch for that matter I mean WE is last place) but the direct correlation between 1st place champions and 1st place world I think has been a bit dubious for a while now and with today's results I don't think the connection is clear at all. The reality that #1 LPL might be #1 world at least appears to be belivable compared to last summer when Frosk went on SI and called EDG the only contender to blue/white before they promptly failed to make it out of groups. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On March 15 2015 09:44 CROrens wrote: Its really interesting how were having all these discussions about how Korea sucks ("the exodus"), and if GE won that last game, no one would bat an eye I said if GE dropped even a game to WE, it was proof that EDG >>>> GE. EDG currently #1 team in the world right now. | ||
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CROrens
Croatia1005 Posts
On March 15 2015 09:51 TheYango wrote: No, them even dropping a game to WE was already raising eyebrows. Second game where they picked Yasuo for whatever reason and were cocky as hell thinking they can get away with it? | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
when you have that critical mass of korean players, they'll also transport the accretion of knowledge and best practices. kind of like how having one foreign factory won't do you much good, but if your entire export sector is being run by foreign tech and expertise, you can get a cutting edge manufacturing industry of your own. the process of teaching and exchange within teams and through scrims is underestimated. what killed china in years past is insular meta and not scrimming seriously with korean teams enough to ingest their practices. think back to wcg blaze vs OMG. the chinese super team got dumpstered by korean knowledge and new meta. but now that barrier is largely broken. china probably still don't have the sort of data reliant analysis korean teams rely upon, but that kind of thing isn't enough to put korea over the top when it leads to a bland korean meta that is brittle to unfamiliar things. from the way NJWS played last year it should be clear that some korean teams just get successful by practicing very limited strats and lose their way outside of this comfort. true 'gamers' are few and valuable. i consider mandu and mata to be the few 'creative' players korea had. ths is not to say all of the improvements and whatnot seen in korean are the result of lower competition. GMB has seriously improved as an individual player. | ||
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chosenkerrigan
858 Posts
On March 15 2015 10:05 CROrens wrote: Second game where they picked Yasuo for whatever reason and were cocky as hell thinking they can get away with it? You act as if yasuo picking is an auto-loss level of trolling. It's not like PraY picked Ashe. In fact, PraY on Corki shows that they were not completely trolling that 2nd game. They might very well have a game plan with Yasuo. | ||
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Slusher
United States19143 Posts
Honestly I think the Diana ban in game 3 was a lot weirder, to be honest I didn't feel like Diana was responsible for any wins this tournament, in the games she did win she was carried, yet GE banned it all 3 games I can only guess due to lack of match up knowlege | ||
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oneofthem
Cayman Islands24199 Posts
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