EPT[S4WC] Semifinals - Page 75
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Serelitz
Netherlands2895 Posts
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skykh
3006 Posts
On October 13 2014 23:11 NeoIllusions wrote: While I have no problem with people thinking OMG would be a better matchup against White in the finals, I do think that a lot of you are discrediting Royal by a large margin. Frankly, what good is OMG's ability to stand up to White if they can't even beat Royal in the first place. I feel like S4 finals is just going to be a repeat of S3, regardless of which CN team made it in. Also, a T1 S fan? wtf is this. I think if T1 S wasn't under the SKT brand, they would stand out even more as a mediocre KR team. It's like fans put hope in T1 S just because they're a sister team. To me, they're like the quintessential "potential" team from KR. They've been together for multiple OGN seasons and they haven't really amounted to much. Stealths on the other hand, I can easily see why fans cheer and have faith in them. Omg won all early/mid all of their games then throw on baron or splitpush, there is no korean team that can beat white. I mean who? Blue/skt get literally roflstomped and shield get 3-0 by omg. Kta are not consistent enough(arrow is literally csing like silver player) jungle/mid will go even and maybe top but bot is a great mismatch. | ||
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oo_Wonderful_oo
The land of freedom23126 Posts
On October 13 2014 23:33 Serelitz wrote: I agree completely except I'm not sure why Stealths have so much more potential than T1 S? Not that it'd be bad to see sad Jin Air plane go but they just seemed to be the same level. Because T1 S don't have potential, that's why. Their only potential is for how long Marin can lose every toplane matchup after being hyped as "toplane Faker". This team was built around him and only botlane delivers. Stealths could be safe pick for top-4 in OGN Winter but seems like we won't have OGN Winter, so meh, we'll see. On October 13 2014 22:37 Letmelose wrote: For example, I consider OMG to be a better team than SHRC regardless of the results of this tournament. I personally have huge problems taking SHRC as a legitimately elite team. These are just my thoughts, but I don't consider any of the Western teams to be professional gamers. They're just streamers who compete professionally. They're kind of doing what ex-professionals like Bisu is doing right now. They don't practice as hard, and even when they do put in the effort, it's kind of like taking short cuts to getting good results under the circumstances Riot Gaming has laid out instead of being legitimately great. Before I list the typical list of elite tier Korean teams that everybody will roll thei eyes over, I actually like SK Telecom T1 S. I like OMG better than SHRC, even thought I'm much more fond of the individual players from SHRC. I like Jin Air Stealths, and thought Fly was wonderful. These are teams I see a future, even if they have existing problems right now, whereas with SHRC, it's like they honed what they are good at right now in the short term, and I don't think they can hope to achieve much more with how they operate as a team. Their coach even said that he prefers to let them practice in solo-que instead of scrimming as a team because their obvious limitations during scrims get exploited, which leads them to rage against one another (that's the feeling I got anyways). That's not what constitues a good team in my mind, even if they managed to get good results in the biggest tournament of the year. Competitive League will stagnate anyway most likely, Chinese top dogs are making shittons of money with streaming, so are streamers in NA, EU is a bit behind in that case and if Koreans want, they can just stream on afreeca and make sweet balloons moneys. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On October 13 2014 17:09 cLutZ wrote: Y'all are silly. They got lucky because njws was a patch team and not third best in Korea. KTA and SKTT1K are both better 90%of the time, and are both better teams for stomping internationals. I was qqing about this in the ogn summer thread. Plus Skt truly has fallen apart. The problem is that the Najin that qualified was an enigma that could not be sustained, because they were mostly never a top 5 team in kr, except for a week. Edit. It has nothing to do with them not being good. They are a #1lcs team. Easily This is literally the patchZerg argument. In reality, every LoL team is a "patch" team if you really think about it. It is a reductive argument based on how much Riot changes the game and any attempt to justify a team as "better" than another team in some idealistic stable game and ignoring "patch" accomplishments is an exercise in confirmation bias and wistful self-delusion. Being a successful team and playing well on the current patch are necessary and sufficient conditions for each other. | ||
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GhandiEAGLE
United States20754 Posts
Kbye. | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
On October 14 2014 00:36 xes wrote: This is literally the patchZerg argument. In reality, every LoL team is a "patch" team if you really think about it. It is a reductive argument based on how much Riot changes the game and any attempt to justify a team as "better" than another team in some idealistic stable game and ignoring "patch" accomplishments is an exercise in confirmation bias and wistful self-delusion. Being a successful team and playing well on the current patch are necessary and sufficient conditions for each other. I didn't mean to say that they were particularly adapted to the patch, I think they managed to figure out a few power picks first and by the time worlds warmed up most their super powerful strategies had been figured out/adopted. You actually saw this in the game that T1K took off them (by the way, T1K barely existed at that point, they got crushed in lane everywhere almost every game) with the Zilean/Twitch comp. So yea, the one time a team did a good comp (for the new patch) against them, they lost. Its like when OMG took Game 1 off of SKT last year, because they busted out the WTF Aatrox jungle??? Thats not to say being able to figure things out isn't part of being a great team, but some teams are good at it, while others are better at absorbing strategies and executing, as a patch goes on team type #2 will gain an advantage. This is why White is being White. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On October 14 2014 03:39 cLutZ wrote: I didn't mean to say that they were particularly adapted to the patch, I think they managed to figure out a few power picks first and by the time worlds warmed up most their super powerful strategies had been figured out/adopted. You actually saw this in the game that T1K took off them (by the way, T1K barely existed at that point, they got crushed in lane everywhere almost every game) with the Zilean/Twitch comp. So yea, the one time a team did a good comp (for the new patch) against them, they lost. Its like when OMG took Game 1 off of SKT last year, because they busted out the WTF Aatrox jungle??? Thats not to say being able to figure things out isn't part of being a great team, but some teams are good at it, while others are better at absorbing strategies and executing, as a patch goes on team type #2 will gain an advantage. This is why White is being White. Winning a game in groups is different than NJWS 3-0'ing KT A (and then 3-1 SKT K) right after KT A wins OGN Summer. Sure, NJWS completely collapsed and were unabled to adapted to OMG the same way SSB collapsed to SSW, but that still does not diminish NJWS's accomplishments or somehow relegated them to less-than-top OGN team. Maybe they're particularly unsuited to playing against LPL teams like how SHRC is particularly unsuited to playing OGN teams and NJWS was unlucky the same way OMG was lucky. But NJWS was still top 4 OGN for two of the splits, and then completely dominated regionals to get to World's. None of this stuff matters though, because World's has never been about figuring out the rankings between regions (regardless of how much Riot likes to pretend it could be an indicator of parity or Riot detractors, myself included, think that region parity is worse than ever). The format is completely unsuited to doing so. What it does do is 1) generate hype and marketing for Riot and 2) determine the current best team in the world. Regardless of group/bracket luck shenanigans, you have to a remarkably good and consistent team to make your regional qualifiers into worlds and then truck through the bracket and win the finals. It will pretty obvious for S3 and S4 that SKT and SSW are absolutely dominant, but even in S1 and S2, you could see that regardless of how everyone else fell before or after, Fnatic and TPA were extremely good at playing that iteration of the game at the time the game was being played. Obviously what I would rather see is a double elim tournament between top X teams of each region being played every Y months like we had in S2 and beginning of S3 with Gigabyte and IPL, but Riot has many incentives to stop that from happening: 1) These tournaments can become very anti-hype (see TI4) 2) They diminish from the glamour of Worlds 3) Weekend LANs make it particularly hard to be a casual fan of For point (3) I would give the anecdotal evidence of Tennis (or maybe Golf, but I know nothing of Gold) and American Football. When I played a lot of tennis I followed the professional scene but after I stopped playing and lost a bit of interest I stopped following it completely because the cost of keeping up is tremendously high. With American Football, I know shit about anything, but I can still watch the Superbowl with friends because basically the months before that didn't actually matter (like LCS!) and the event is just a single afternoon spectacle where the results don't actually have any relevancy to the past or future (like Worlds!) | ||
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Ota Solgryn
Denmark2011 Posts
On October 13 2014 23:02 wei2coolman wrote: Again, no one gives royal club any legitimacy because they keep picking rock in rock paper scissors and keep winning. And I agree with this so much. It was exactly the same with Jaedong when he started ripping up ZvZ. He bascially redefined ZvZ which was a Rock Paper Sciccors matchup but kept winning with Rock. When players or teams do this, they deserve to be recognized! | ||
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cLutZ
United States19573 Posts
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Ryuu314
United States12679 Posts
On October 13 2014 17:04 wei2coolman wrote: Your literally complaining about the 3rd most skilled team at world's making it to the final. Rofl. Like what do you want from royal? No one is fucking drinking the shrc koolaid, no one is even saying they'll take a game of white. Their superstar players are good because they can force teams into their style of play. Lol. Zero's vision control is completely marred by his team. There's a fucking 4 ward limit, do you seriously expect zero to provide full map vision for his entire team? Rofl. It's like judging a guy's ability to run a marathon while dragging around a dead carcass. This is literally how you sound 'top 2 botane combo in the world, arguably the best in the world. Yeah that zero support guy. He's just 'ok'' You're putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I ever say royal has top 2 botlane combo. I dont think royal bot lane is top two at all. Uzi is best ad carry, but that doesn't mean they're top two. Rather, I think Uzi is so good he can make the Royal bot lane look good independant of how good the support is. Nor did I ever say royal club don't deserve to be in the finals. I explicitly said they do by a combination of luck and skill. Luck is always a factor; what group you're seeded in, what side of the bracket you're on, and how you opponent s play that day. Rather, I think wei's calling Zero Kobe is completely wrong and way overestimating Zero's skill level. I do think OMG would do better against White than Royal cause Royal's playstyle will get utterly stomped by White. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On October 14 2014 04:59 Ryuu314 wrote: You're putting words in my mouth. Nowhere did I ever say royal has top 2 botlane combo. I dont think royal bot lane is top two at all. Uzi is best ad carry, but that doesn't mean they're top two. Rather, I think Uzi is so good he can make the Royal bot lane look good independant of how good the support is. Nor did I ever say royal club don't deserve to be in the finals. I explicitly said they do by a combination of luck and skill. Luck is always a factor; what group you're seeded in, what side of the bracket you're on, and how you opponent s play that day. Rather, I think wei's calling Zero Kobe is completely wrong and way overestimating Zero's skill level. I do think OMG would do better against White than Royal cause Royal's playstyle will get utterly stomped by White. I think this came up last world's, but is even more true for this one: OMG has a much better chance of taking a single game in the finals, but Royal has a better chance of actually winning the whole thing. It's why Royal was able to advance past EDG and OMG who both try to play "proper" and emulate the slower more controlled Korean style. Chances are still that SSW will 3-0 SHRC into the ground, but realistically the only team that had a chance of beating them was an on-point SSB against a overconfident and lackadaisical SSW. | ||
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wei2coolman
United States60033 Posts
On October 14 2014 05:24 xes wrote: I think this came up last world's, but is even more true for this one: OMG has a much better chance of taking a single game in the finals, but Royal has a better chance of actually winning the whole thing. It's why Royal was able to advance past EDG and OMG who both try to play "proper" and emulate the slower more controlled Korean style. Chances are still that SSW will 3-0 SHRC into the ground, but realistically the only team that had a chance of beating them was an on-point SSB against a overconfident and lackadaisical SSW. I would love to see a SHRC vs SSB bo5. I think Royal Club is good enough to beat SSB in a bo5, but it'd be a really close call. I think OMG vs SSB will be a pretty good match too, should give a good idea overall how top 3 CN vs top 3 KR matchup right now. | ||
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BrownBear
United States6894 Posts
Seeing Cool, Lovelin and GoGoing vs. PawN, DanDy and Looper would have been incredible, even if OMG didn't really have a chance at taking more than one surprise game. Instead, we just get to watch all 5 SHRC players get dumpstered. | ||
TheYango
United States47024 Posts
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krndandaman
Mozambique16569 Posts
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Zergneedsfood
United States10671 Posts
On October 14 2014 00:57 GhandiEAGLE wrote: Just wanna say that TSM took games off of both teams in the finals. Kbye. Shut up Jeff. | ||
Fionn
United States23455 Posts
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St3MoR
Spain3256 Posts
On October 15 2014 09:19 Fionn wrote: Then Worlds came and Zefa did admirably . WAT O_O | ||
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MooMooMugi
United States10531 Posts
SSW has the top players in their respective lane with the highest KDA in each role(RIOT STATS FTW). Mata? Highly regarded as THE best support in the world right now, superior map movement, king of vision control. Makes Zero's Janna look like a bronze player's. Playmaker AND shotcaller of the team. Imp? Top 2 ADC, if you give this guy Twitch or Tristana he will wreck you. Most pentakills this tournament for a reason(although 1 was vs. DP). Argubly the strongest in his role in calculated aggresion. Says Uzi is his equal but I don't personally agree. Pawn? Top 2 Mid laner, this guy has the most solo kills out of every mid laner against the best of the best. Made Faker his + Show Spoiler + bitch Dandy? Also regarded as THE best jungler in the world. Give this guy Rengar and he will make Insec wish he never left Korea. Best counterganker + jungle intuition. His early game aggression single-handedly wins games for his team. Looper? Top 3(2?)Top laner, very team orientated player with his TP plays but showed in this tournament he is not scared to play carry champions. Rumble is always banned vs this guy and for very good reason. He can pull out a pocket pick like Singed or Akali and crush skulls with them as well. Then when you compare Samsung White's star-studded, cream of the crop team with a team that has no universal language to communicate(No, elementary level english and chinese doesnt count), 2 Korean imports, that relies on a emotionally-prone ADC team like Star Horn Royal Club, I cant help it but laugh. Lets look at this recipe for disaster of a team: Zero- The first Korean import. Albeit he has looked decent this tournament, the only champion that he has played that caught my eye was his Janna. His Thresh and Nami has looked nothing but lackluster and against a player of Mata's caliber, he has a lot of catching up to do. Uzi- The "Chinese hope." This 17 year old star is the key player to Royal Club's previous victories. Although he enjoys playing Vayne, the meta and also his team(lel) rejects it so he resorts to Lucian as his primary choice of AD carry. His biggest weakness is not only bearing the pressure of carrying his entire team on his back, but also being prone to tilting easily and not communicating with his team when things get tough. Insec- The second Korean import. He looked amazing in 2012-2013 on KT Bullets, forever immortalizing Lee Sin's ultimate named after himself. However, in his short stint in China, he has placed 2nd in LPL and earned himself a spot in Worlds, going all the way to the finals, something not be ashamed of. Out of all the SHRC players, I would place Insec as the most unpredictable one, easily capable of bringing them to success or failure. His KhaZix and Lee Sin are solid, but you can clearly see the miscommunication when he jumps in a teamfight alone way ahead of his team and dying for free. His Rengar has warranted a ban against him in most games but against Dandy, it is very likely he will give up Rengar to Insec on purpose only to destroy him on his favorite champion. Or he can surprise or utterly fail with pocket picks such as Pantheon and Fiddlesticks. Corn-There is no way to sugarcoat the level of player Corn is. He is a 2-trick pony that can only play Orianna and Lulu, not even close to a world-class level. He consistently loses lane against his opponent and is overall a liability on SHRC's roster. Watch to this guy get utterly smashed by Lord Pawn's Jayce, Yasuo, and Fizz. Cola- A 3-trick pony of SHRC's top lane that consists of Ryze, Irelia, and I guess Mundo? Just comparing the stats, Cola barely manages a 3.4 KDA to Looper's amazing 12.94 KDA. He, along with Corn, are part of SHRC liability tag-team that Uzi carries every game. Watch him execute late teleports in an attempt to keep up with Looper and utterly fail. In conclusion, there is no chance SHRC can win in picks&bans, early game, mid game, and late game against the Samsung powerhouse. If you have not noticed, I am predicting Samsung White to win 3:0 in the finals, which what will probably be a snooze-fest and no surprise to most people. + Show Spoiler + Unless somehow Uzi injects some endorphin and adrenaline shots right before the match and goes apeshit crazy carry mode going 20-0-15 on Vayne. 10/10 Would watch again. | ||
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KissBlade
United States5718 Posts
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