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On October 07 2014 15:06 TheYango wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 14:41 ShootAnonymous wrote:
In a way CN league can't go the way CN DotA has due to the way slots are awarded for World Championships; even KR League still revolves around one major circuit (champions). In fact CN league might still have the most non-regular-league seasonal tournaments in which top-tier teams participate in*: WEC and XCS come to mind immediately, whereas for KR I can only think of Masters. Plus I'm sure there's more CN tournaments except my memory's bad and english league-sites barely cover CN tournaments if at all. Urgh.
All of those other leagues are basically onlines only. Seasonal LANs are virtually impossible to operate because scheduling would conflict with LPL and obviously we know which one teams would pick if they were forced to choose between the two. Even when they don't conflict, you end up with a shitshow like last year's G-League where none of the teams gave a fuck because it was during the off-season period after Worlds. There's something wrong when Tencent's business model is bullying out one of China's most historied seasonal LAN Leagues like that. You could argue that NA and EU needed Riot's intervention because organizers like MLG and ESL were going nowhere fast and Riot needed to jumpstart the idea of seasonal LAN leagues. But China already had the tools to make things work on it's own like Korea has. Seasonal LAN tournaments have worked for years already. For Tencent to relegate stable, historied tournaments like this to off-season filler makes absolutely no sense to me.
Got to have full control, can't let anyone else take the spotlight.
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On October 06 2014 23:16 TeeTS wrote:
Again it proves, that some Shield players are massively overrated. Don´t get me wrong here, I don´t think Shield are a bad team. As a team, they are pretty decent. They have very nice wave manipulation, map movement and vision control. But as individuals, they have no, absolutely NO outstanding player. save is good, but not the one, some people make him to be. He is not the absolute best top laner, heads and shoulders above anyone else. He has a lot of games, where he plays pretty bad. How can you be THE best with that?
Ggoong is pretty mediocre korean midlaner. He is absolutely nothing special in OGN Champions.
Gorilla is a good korean support, probably in the upper half of OGN Champions - around Lustboy in terms of skill. That´s it, nothing more, nothing special.
Watch and Zefa are allways harschly critizised and perhaps a bit too much on the other hand. But People should start to realize, that this Shield team never had any convincing win over a top tier team until korean regionals. look at their results of 2014:
Winter:
Group Stage: lost to Ozone, won over AA and Dark ; Bracket stage: won over Xenics Storm, lost to Ozone and KT B.
Spring
Group Stage: drew with Blaze (won in tiebreaker), won over IM2 and Xenics Storm ; Bracket Stage: narrowly won over slumping KT B, narrowly won over Blaze and then lost to blue. - This is most of the glory they ever got. 2 narrow wins over teams that are questioned of being a top tier team.
Summer
Group Stage: drew with neoSword, Jin Air Falcons and fucked up KT B ; Bracket Stage: lost to KT A (in a close match though)
If you look at this matchhistory for the team, you see that until their wins against KT A and SKT K, Shield never really got any strong results in champions. Their appearance in the spring finals was made out of an incredible easy bracket (in comparison to the other side, where eventual winners Blue, Ozone and SKT K were sitting together) and some pretty narrow and lucky wins.
This years korean regionals were the only 3 days, we saw Shield performing like a top tier team, ever!! Everyone should´ve been careful with buying into the shield hype, because worlds proved: it was a fluke and nothing else.
This seems kind of revisionist to me. Shield got destroyed much harder than most by balance patches. It actually reminds me a lot of Ozone last year. Ggoong was arguably the best Nidalee in Korea and in the conversation for Leblanc. Save's Shyvana was absolutely monstrous, but even on other champions, that patch was much more conducive to his playstyle. Zefa has always been more a role-player than a playmaker, which was just fine in spring, but if we look at the best-performing teams at Worlds, most of them have standout AD carries. There are also all kinds of indirect consequences like Watch, Zefa and Gorilla having artificially smaller champion pools because Save and Ggoong aren't soaking as many bans. Watch has to play different because Ggoong no longer auto-wins mid with Leblanc in half their matches. Etc etc.
I don't know that anyone would have called current Shield the third best team in Korea even before they started dropping games at Worlds. Hell, I don't even know that they deserved that title at their peak, but I think they absolutely would have made it through OMG if they were playing on the patches that they earned the majority of their qualifying points on.
The qualifying system is kind of ridiculous. Two years in a row teams that have effectively been patched out of the competition got sent to Worlds, despite Korea being a deep enough region to send maybe six or seven teams capable of making it to quarterfinals. I don't know that it can reasonably get much better with the stipulation that they can only send three teams, though. It seems kind of unreasonable to make high Spring/Winter finishes irrelevant.
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On October 07 2014 18:37 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 15:06 TheYango wrote:On October 07 2014 14:41 ShootAnonymous wrote:
In a way CN league can't go the way CN DotA has due to the way slots are awarded for World Championships; even KR League still revolves around one major circuit (champions). In fact CN league might still have the most non-regular-league seasonal tournaments in which top-tier teams participate in*: WEC and XCS come to mind immediately, whereas for KR I can only think of Masters. Plus I'm sure there's more CN tournaments except my memory's bad and english league-sites barely cover CN tournaments if at all. Urgh.
All of those other leagues are basically onlines only. Seasonal LANs are virtually impossible to operate because scheduling would conflict with LPL and obviously we know which one teams would pick if they were forced to choose between the two. Even when they don't conflict, you end up with a shitshow like last year's G-League where none of the teams gave a fuck because it was during the off-season period after Worlds. There's something wrong when Tencent's business model is bullying out one of China's most historied seasonal LAN Leagues like that. You could argue that NA and EU needed Riot's intervention because organizers like MLG and ESL were going nowhere fast and Riot needed to jumpstart the idea of seasonal LAN leagues. But China already had the tools to make things work on it's own like Korea has. Seasonal LAN tournaments have worked for years already. For Tencent to relegate stable, historied tournaments like this to off-season filler makes absolutely no sense to me. Got to have full control, can't let anyone else take the spotlight.
This is doubly silly due to Riot's overall input into and disregard for the region. Assuming that Koreans remain the favorites for the world championships, the actual average earnings for LPL for playing 30 or so weeks of LAN a year is actually absurdly low compared to what would exist for an independent scene.
The fact that League isn't able to hold independent LANs will become a rather large handicap in the long term and leaves the game's esport scene contingent on riot-support.
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
On October 07 2014 20:25 OhTwoMise wrote:Show nested quote +On October 06 2014 23:16 TeeTS wrote:
Again it proves, that some Shield players are massively overrated. Don´t get me wrong here, I don´t think Shield are a bad team. As a team, they are pretty decent. They have very nice wave manipulation, map movement and vision control. But as individuals, they have no, absolutely NO outstanding player. save is good, but not the one, some people make him to be. He is not the absolute best top laner, heads and shoulders above anyone else. He has a lot of games, where he plays pretty bad. How can you be THE best with that?
Ggoong is pretty mediocre korean midlaner. He is absolutely nothing special in OGN Champions.
Gorilla is a good korean support, probably in the upper half of OGN Champions - around Lustboy in terms of skill. That´s it, nothing more, nothing special.
Watch and Zefa are allways harschly critizised and perhaps a bit too much on the other hand. But People should start to realize, that this Shield team never had any convincing win over a top tier team until korean regionals. look at their results of 2014:
Winter:
Group Stage: lost to Ozone, won over AA and Dark ; Bracket stage: won over Xenics Storm, lost to Ozone and KT B.
Spring
Group Stage: drew with Blaze (won in tiebreaker), won over IM2 and Xenics Storm ; Bracket Stage: narrowly won over slumping KT B, narrowly won over Blaze and then lost to blue. - This is most of the glory they ever got. 2 narrow wins over teams that are questioned of being a top tier team.
Summer
Group Stage: drew with neoSword, Jin Air Falcons and fucked up KT B ; Bracket Stage: lost to KT A (in a close match though)
If you look at this matchhistory for the team, you see that until their wins against KT A and SKT K, Shield never really got any strong results in champions. Their appearance in the spring finals was made out of an incredible easy bracket (in comparison to the other side, where eventual winners Blue, Ozone and SKT K were sitting together) and some pretty narrow and lucky wins.
This years korean regionals were the only 3 days, we saw Shield performing like a top tier team, ever!! Everyone should´ve been careful with buying into the shield hype, because worlds proved: it was a fluke and nothing else. This seems kind of revisionist to me. Shield got destroyed much harder than most by balance patches. It actually reminds me a lot of Ozone last year. Ggoong was arguably the best Nidalee in Korea and in the conversation for Leblanc. Save's Shyvana was absolutely monstrous, but even on other champions, that patch was much more conducive to his playstyle. Zefa has always been more a role-player than a playmaker, which was just fine in spring, but if we look at the best-performing teams at Worlds, most of them have standout AD carries. There are also all kinds of indirect consequences like Watch, Zefa and Gorilla having artificially smaller champion pools because Save and Ggoong aren't soaking as many bans. Watch has to play different because Ggoong no longer auto-wins mid with Leblanc in half their matches. Etc etc. I don't know that anyone would have called current Shield the third best team in Korea even before they started dropping games at Worlds. Hell, I don't even know that they deserved that title at their peak, but I think they absolutely would have made it through OMG if they were playing on the patches that they earned the majority of their qualifying points on. The qualifying system is kind of ridiculous. Two years in a row teams that have effectively been patched out of the competition got sent to Worlds, despite Korea being a deep enough region to send maybe six or seven teams capable of making it to quarterfinals. I don't know that it can reasonably get much better with the stipulation that they can only send three teams, though. It seems kind of unreasonable to make high Spring/Winter finishes irrelevant.
Patched out or not, but Shield destroyed Regionals.
But basically, on current patch everything is on watch and watch/Zefa massively over-performed at Regionals, that's why they're here, Piglet and Pooh are kicked from SKT T1, KT A are in shambles and KT B is KT B.
There is example of GPL system, actually, when each consecutive circuit season gives more points but meh. Korea is too deep to rely on only one season from 3 and actually, if rumours are real and Winter will be killed, oh boy, 2 seasons might be not fun at all.
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On October 07 2014 17:24 ShootAnonymous wrote:+ Show Spoiler +First qn:
6th Qn re:facing off against SSB's botlane
我觉得有信心至少跟他们五五开吧
I feel, I have the confidence to at least go even.
T/N: the interpreter's choice to use "our chance is 50-50" is a literal translation of the term "55开" but makes no sense in this context. Chance is 50-50; 50-50 to do what?
Also: I'm sure the interpreter didn't translate whatever Cloud was mumbling at the end, but I can't catch what he said either T_T
I did a little search and "go even" looks like the right translation. 55开 just means to split 50-50, for example, 64开 means to split 60-40, where one party takes 60 and the other 40
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On October 07 2014 20:45 Kupon3ss wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 18:37 Numy wrote:On October 07 2014 15:06 TheYango wrote:On October 07 2014 14:41 ShootAnonymous wrote:
In a way CN league can't go the way CN DotA has due to the way slots are awarded for World Championships; even KR League still revolves around one major circuit (champions). In fact CN league might still have the most non-regular-league seasonal tournaments in which top-tier teams participate in*: WEC and XCS come to mind immediately, whereas for KR I can only think of Masters. Plus I'm sure there's more CN tournaments except my memory's bad and english league-sites barely cover CN tournaments if at all. Urgh.
All of those other leagues are basically onlines only. Seasonal LANs are virtually impossible to operate because scheduling would conflict with LPL and obviously we know which one teams would pick if they were forced to choose between the two. Even when they don't conflict, you end up with a shitshow like last year's G-League where none of the teams gave a fuck because it was during the off-season period after Worlds. There's something wrong when Tencent's business model is bullying out one of China's most historied seasonal LAN Leagues like that. You could argue that NA and EU needed Riot's intervention because organizers like MLG and ESL were going nowhere fast and Riot needed to jumpstart the idea of seasonal LAN leagues. But China already had the tools to make things work on it's own like Korea has. Seasonal LAN tournaments have worked for years already. For Tencent to relegate stable, historied tournaments like this to off-season filler makes absolutely no sense to me. Got to have full control, can't let anyone else take the spotlight. This is doubly silly due to Riot's overall input into and disregard for the region. Assuming that Koreans remain the favorites for the world championships, the actual average earnings for LPL for playing 30 or so weeks of LAN a year is actually absurdly low compared to what would exist for an independent scene. The fact that League isn't able to hold independent LANs will become a rather large handicap in the long term and leaves the game's esport scene contingent on riot-support.
At least as far as NA/EU concerned, I don't know if there's a need for more independent LAN, just more bo5 experience.
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On October 07 2014 21:46 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:Show nested quote +On October 07 2014 20:25 OhTwoMise wrote:On October 06 2014 23:16 TeeTS wrote:
Again it proves, that some Shield players are massively overrated. Don´t get me wrong here, I don´t think Shield are a bad team. As a team, they are pretty decent. They have very nice wave manipulation, map movement and vision control. But as individuals, they have no, absolutely NO outstanding player. save is good, but not the one, some people make him to be. He is not the absolute best top laner, heads and shoulders above anyone else. He has a lot of games, where he plays pretty bad. How can you be THE best with that?
Ggoong is pretty mediocre korean midlaner. He is absolutely nothing special in OGN Champions.
Gorilla is a good korean support, probably in the upper half of OGN Champions - around Lustboy in terms of skill. That´s it, nothing more, nothing special.
Watch and Zefa are allways harschly critizised and perhaps a bit too much on the other hand. But People should start to realize, that this Shield team never had any convincing win over a top tier team until korean regionals. look at their results of 2014:
Winter:
Group Stage: lost to Ozone, won over AA and Dark ; Bracket stage: won over Xenics Storm, lost to Ozone and KT B.
Spring
Group Stage: drew with Blaze (won in tiebreaker), won over IM2 and Xenics Storm ; Bracket Stage: narrowly won over slumping KT B, narrowly won over Blaze and then lost to blue. - This is most of the glory they ever got. 2 narrow wins over teams that are questioned of being a top tier team.
Summer
Group Stage: drew with neoSword, Jin Air Falcons and fucked up KT B ; Bracket Stage: lost to KT A (in a close match though)
If you look at this matchhistory for the team, you see that until their wins against KT A and SKT K, Shield never really got any strong results in champions. Their appearance in the spring finals was made out of an incredible easy bracket (in comparison to the other side, where eventual winners Blue, Ozone and SKT K were sitting together) and some pretty narrow and lucky wins.
This years korean regionals were the only 3 days, we saw Shield performing like a top tier team, ever!! Everyone should´ve been careful with buying into the shield hype, because worlds proved: it was a fluke and nothing else. This seems kind of revisionist to me. Shield got destroyed much harder than most by balance patches. It actually reminds me a lot of Ozone last year. Ggoong was arguably the best Nidalee in Korea and in the conversation for Leblanc. Save's Shyvana was absolutely monstrous, but even on other champions, that patch was much more conducive to his playstyle. Zefa has always been more a role-player than a playmaker, which was just fine in spring, but if we look at the best-performing teams at Worlds, most of them have standout AD carries. There are also all kinds of indirect consequences like Watch, Zefa and Gorilla having artificially smaller champion pools because Save and Ggoong aren't soaking as many bans. Watch has to play different because Ggoong no longer auto-wins mid with Leblanc in half their matches. Etc etc. I don't know that anyone would have called current Shield the third best team in Korea even before they started dropping games at Worlds. Hell, I don't even know that they deserved that title at their peak, but I think they absolutely would have made it through OMG if they were playing on the patches that they earned the majority of their qualifying points on. The qualifying system is kind of ridiculous. Two years in a row teams that have effectively been patched out of the competition got sent to Worlds, despite Korea being a deep enough region to send maybe six or seven teams capable of making it to quarterfinals. I don't know that it can reasonably get much better with the stipulation that they can only send three teams, though. It seems kind of unreasonable to make high Spring/Winter finishes irrelevant. Patched out or not, but Shield destroyed Regionals. But basically, on current patch everything is on watch and watch/Zefa massively over-performed at Regionals, that's why they're here, Piglet and Pooh are kicked from SKT T1, KT A are in shambles and KT B is KT B. There is example of GPL system, actually, when each consecutive circuit season gives more points but meh. Korea is too deep to rely on only one season from 3 and actually, if rumours are real and Winter will be killed, oh boy, 2 seasons might be not fun at all.
Shield is just such an odd team. During OGN they kept getting the easy side of the bracket, and I was complaining that they might get an auto bid because I thought they were rubbish. Then I was happy when they didn't. The regionals Shield never existed at another time but it got everyone excited about shield.
IMO these two teams were both in the bottom 4 of quarterfinalists coming into the series. OMG played at a level they havent showed since S3 Worlds Group Stage (they came out gangbusters), not even in a random 3 game stretch in LPL. So who the hell knows,
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United States47024 Posts
That's NA/EU, where the seasonal LAN tournament model has not shown itself to be otherwise stable.
If you were reading at all, you'd know that our discussion concerns China, where seasonal LAN tournaments have been stable for a long time already, and that transplanting the LCS model into such a healthy ecosystem makes no sense, and is instead a step backward when existing broadcasters/tournament organizers were already willing and able to produce something as good as, if not better than, LPL--but instead, due to LPL monopolizing teams' play time, will take their business elsewhere.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
They do have some side tournaments for LPL/LSPL teams but due to their vastly diminished importance compared to LPL/LSPL there is lots of jobbing going on over there.
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United States47024 Posts
Those are all weekend LANs or online events. They're not seasonal LANs like Champions, Masters, or G-League.
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But what's the point of a seasonal League event if Riot can't control it?
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The land of freedom23126 Posts
One can only dream about possibilities of G1/G-Leagues winners getting seeds in Chinese Regionals, like Masters do, but meh.
Until it happens, everyone will just job and WE.A will battle with YG for the championships there.
On October 08 2014 03:09 xes wrote:
But what's the point of a seasonal League event if Riot can't control it?
You forgot to put important + Show Spoiler + for some people here.
Riot are nothing without Tencent though, so that's even more awkward that they sacrifice all historied tournaments for LCS which is heavily critisised for format.
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United Kingdom50293 Posts
Pls WE.A and YG are LPL boys now, they'll job like the rest. I hope the Chinese fans get hype for G-league finals of energy pacemaker carries vs vici standpoint
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Poland3758 Posts
On October 08 2014 03:12 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:One can only dream about possibilities of G1/G-Leagues winners getting seeds in Chinese Regionals, like Masters do, but meh. Until it happens, everyone will just job and WE.A will battle with YG for the championships there. Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 03:09 xes wrote:
But what's the point of a seasonal League event if Riot can't control it? You forgot to put important + Show Spoiler + for some people here. Riot are nothing without Tencent though, so that's even more awkward that they sacrifice all historied tournaments for LCS which is heavily critisised for format.
What's wrong with LCS?
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Round robin games for half a year, rather than DE/SE tournament every month or two. Almost no international competition (thank god we still have IEM). If Riot bans you from their leagues, you have nowhere else to go.
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On October 08 2014 18:34 nimdil wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 03:12 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:One can only dream about possibilities of G1/G-Leagues winners getting seeds in Chinese Regionals, like Masters do, but meh. Until it happens, everyone will just job and WE.A will battle with YG for the championships there. On October 08 2014 03:09 xes wrote:
But what's the point of a seasonal League event if Riot can't control it? You forgot to put important + Show Spoiler + for some people here. Riot are nothing without Tencent though, so that's even more awkward that they sacrifice all historied tournaments for LCS which is heavily critisised for format. What's wrong with LCS?
It's boring as hell for the majority of the year. Destroys any cross region competition.
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Thomas Watts mentioned on Into the Rift how Riot is very protective of their LCS teams last season, refusing to put together any kind of international competition (like prohibiting exhibition games that some people wanted to put together). Really sad if this is true which most likely is.
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On October 08 2014 19:22 Numy wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 18:34 nimdil wrote:On October 08 2014 03:12 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:One can only dream about possibilities of G1/G-Leagues winners getting seeds in Chinese Regionals, like Masters do, but meh. Until it happens, everyone will just job and WE.A will battle with YG for the championships there. On October 08 2014 03:09 xes wrote:
But what's the point of a seasonal League event if Riot can't control it? You forgot to put important + Show Spoiler + for some people here. Riot are nothing without Tencent though, so that's even more awkward that they sacrifice all historied tournaments for LCS which is heavily critisised for format. What's wrong with LCS? It's boring as hell for the majority of the year. Destroys any cross region competition.
Which is really frustrating, because OGN is almost always entertaining so it's not like Riot doesn't have a good template to go off.
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On October 08 2014 21:19 miicah wrote:Show nested quote +On October 08 2014 19:22 Numy wrote:On October 08 2014 18:34 nimdil wrote:On October 08 2014 03:12 oo_Wonderful_oo wrote:One can only dream about possibilities of G1/G-Leagues winners getting seeds in Chinese Regionals, like Masters do, but meh. Until it happens, everyone will just job and WE.A will battle with YG for the championships there. On October 08 2014 03:09 xes wrote:
But what's the point of a seasonal League event if Riot can't control it? You forgot to put important + Show Spoiler + for some people here. Riot are nothing without Tencent though, so that's even more awkward that they sacrifice all historied tournaments for LCS which is heavily critisised for format. What's wrong with LCS? It's boring as hell for the majority of the year. Destroys any cross region competition. Which is really frustrating, because OGN is almost always entertaining so it's not like Riot doesn't have a good template to go off.
Well, the S4WC format is almost exactly like a split of Champions(only the way the groups are handled is different), so.... yeah.
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EPT
