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JBright
Vancouver14381 Posts
On May 25 2013 05:05 NeoIllusions wrote: NA v CN, Game 2, is going to be the defining moment of NA LCS for a long, long time. It's ok, No one will remember if they win the 2v2. | ||
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Zess
Adun Toridas!9144 Posts
On May 25 2013 04:42 wei2coolman wrote: Its like nyjacky doesnt exist... and aside from massive urgot towerdive throw. Dl was instrumental in NA getting a huge lead in game 2. He was so strong he could 1v2 for a long time, which allowed stv and xpecial to finish off bad ganks from china I don't think Nyjacky would really do any better than Scarra. | ||
NeoIllusions
United States37500 Posts
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
NA was rather disappointing today. On an individual skill level, I don't think NA is that screwed tbh. Like, they got outlaned a fair bit but it's not crushing. It's just their co-ordination and complete disrespect for timings and stuff. One of the most important skills to have is understanding what plays you can and should be making whether behind or ahead and NA isn't quite there yet. You see other teams suddenly making the "miracle" plays sometimes, but a lot of it is understanding what you can and cannot achieve and then creating a favourable situation for it to occur. For those of you that play Magic the Gathering, think of it like setting up a board state for the miracle top deck. Sure, you might have lucked out a bit, but Pros understand how to set up a board state for that top deck to be game winning, while other people would only get a decent play off and not the game reversal they need. For NA, a lot of their strategy will need to revolve around DLift. Scarra and Dyrus just need to stabilise game and be reasonably relevant and let Xpecial+DLift do their thing. But then you know, that's basically what CLG is all about. All you've done is substitute 4 people (whether you see them as upgrades or not) but it's basically CLG. And that makes me wonder. Does every team with DLift just turn out to be DLift + 4 because he's just so good that it just makes sense for teams to coalesce around him since he's one of the few truly international level players? | ||
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Amui
Canada10567 Posts
NA actually were in very good positions both games before throwing, which really hurts. First game they clawed their way back after a large deficit, with a teamcomp that would far outscale the one on CN. Then Saint with the mindblowing double facepalm moment, and Dyrus not telling him otherwise(Dyrus fucking sat there, in front of Saint to clearly protect him from basing, which is a fucking stupid idea) And then second game. With the amount of hard initiate available, they could've picked so many fights. Such a poorly executed tower dive. | ||
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Dgiese
United States2687 Posts
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
For Game 2, NA needed to do that sort of dive like 10 min ago. The Chinese All-Star team was cross-map farming. NA could have just marched up 5 man to any lane and just proceeded to lawn mower as many towers as possible. If three people come to defend, you have the mid game power to just crush their face instantly and then continue lawn mowering towers. If they try to base race, you are 5 and they are not. Doing this forces the cross-map people to recall and further delays them from getting vital exp and gold to get back into the game while putting yourself ahead. With Oracles and Wards, you suffocate vision and scare them into not ever wanting to extend (let alone overextend!) to farm and that slows them down even more. Keep doing this until you have overwhelming advantage and can 5v5 crush them under tower. Instead, they waited for so long Ryze had Negatron+Chain Vest, Vayne and co had completed important power items and because China was 5 man under tower, NA just got locked down from Sona Crescendo and Zac bounce. NA's problem was that they decided to mess around with lane farm and match China's cross-map farming with their own farming. This is exactly what the Chinese team wants to do to get farm and items, rather then trying to close the game quickly against Ryze/Vayne. To paraphrase myself from my EU S2 World Quals article: "It was like they tried to proxy 2-gate and then not attack with Zealots." | ||
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SnK-Arcbound
United States4423 Posts
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Alzadar
Canada5009 Posts
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Seuss
United States10536 Posts
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Dgiese
United States2687 Posts
@Monty: yeah I noticed his Ulysses were underwhelming, I would much rather see him play a jayce or khazix type pick | ||
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MoonBear
Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
Part of this I think is what contributes to people in the NA LCS trying to "out-late-game" the other team when it comes to picks/bans because no one knows how to close games quickly and efficiently. It's almost as if NA strategise for the late game not because they have a plan to reach it securely, but because they always just stumble into it almost by accident and just expect it to come around. | ||
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Don_Julio
2220 Posts
On May 25 2013 05:40 Alzadar wrote: Did anyone see the Janna tornado in game 2 that went directly through Ryze and didn't knock him up? Was in midlane about 15-20 mins in, caused Janna to have to flash when she wouldn't have otherwise. But it was just an animation bug wasnt it? Ryze didnt move for the time he should have been knoched up and didnt cast any spells. Only watched once so I'm not sure. | ||
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ketchup
14521 Posts
On May 25 2013 05:41 Seuss wrote: The first thing NA should do is stop picking Malphite for Dyrus. I haven't seen Malphite win a top lane matchup in months, and you can't really afford to just give away a lane like that in international competition. Dyrus did use Unstoppable Force on single targets way too often, but ultimately I think the pick had more to do with his poor performance than anything else. It's not the worst pick in the world, but when competing on the world stage you need every pick to be phenomenal. I don't know if you are being serious here. NA's downfall was not malphite or dyrus. That second game, malphite/dyrus played an amazing game. You do not see it because the casters don't really point out dyrus while in game. He was left alone to 1v3 for a large amount of time, and he came out ahead in a lot of the exchanges due to his play. The first game was shaping up to be similar before StV tried to gank that rumble. They were even in farm, the lane was frozen, and Jarvan IV was not even thinking about pressuring that lane. It was sincerely a terrible call from the person who called it. | ||
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Affenaffe
Germany1386 Posts
On May 25 2013 05:03 AsnSensation wrote: I mean apart from not being able to press a 7k gold advantage, the tower dive at the bot tier 2 turret vs a Baron Team has to be the biggest facepalm LoL moment ~last 6months it was an urgot ultimate pickoff on an ap carry that ended half a screen behind the enemy tower. i am pretty sure the plan wasn't to all-in the enemy team there. if ryze dies after less than two seconds and they reset that fight with janna ultimate afterwards they look like geniuses that have realized they have to finally press the advantage with their early game comp (after 10 disappointing minutes of getting fooled in a baron dance) the eu game 1 teamfights were actually extremely close and very unlucky for the eu crew: some crazy close KR escapes and diamonds ultimate came up 5 seconds after yellowpete got caught with that awesome lee sin backstab-kick wich was exactly when the enemy team had scattered again and diamond was already low then. i didn't much like soaz' ultimates in both teamfights at dragon but that's about it. and damn, that dragon kick can be effective in fights. incredible against kennen. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
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Lord Tolkien
United States12083 Posts
On May 25 2013 00:52 KissBlade wrote: On a side note, I love how people completely downrate NA's play which was in all honesty pretty good (especially compared to EU). Game 1 Saint stealing Baron and NA actually mounting a comeback was pretty cool to watch. (and his spectacular throw at the end =\) Game 2 was actually China not having answers for quite some time before some mechanics issues on a turret dive wrecked NA's momentum. People on TL are always going to underrate NA play (almost comparable to how Reddit overestimates them, tbh). Part of it is because NA in general is generally the weakest region, but also ex-SC2 mentality methinks. And I agree. Emotional roller-coaster made em better then the EU games (which were just a slow, steady slide with EU falling behind both games). On May 25 2013 02:10 czylu wrote: Dlift is no where near WX's level. In the straight up 2v2 in the first game he was down 15 cs. In the second game, the only reason why dlift was close was b/c SV camped bot lane so urgot was basically farming an empty lane. Can't really read much into Game 1. Janna/Vayne is a hilariously weak lane, while Varus/Thresh is a bully lane (even discounting the fact Janna/Vayne is so weak). Plus Troll camping top. On May 25 2013 05:27 MoonBear wrote: Been talking with my staff a fair bit and felt like I should share some of the conversation I was having. NA was rather disappointing today. On an individual skill level, I don't think NA is that screwed tbh. Like, they got outlaned a fair bit but it's not crushing. It's just their co-ordination and complete disrespect for timings and stuff. One of the most important skills to have is understanding what plays you can and should be making whether behind or ahead and NA isn't quite there yet. You see other teams suddenly making the "miracle" plays sometimes, but a lot of it is understanding what you can and cannot achieve and then creating a favourable situation for it to occur. For those of you that play Magic the Gathering, think of it like setting up a board state for the miracle top deck. Sure, you might have lucked out a bit, but Pros understand how to set up a board state for that top deck to be game winning, while other people would only get a decent play off and not the game reversal they need. For NA, a lot of their strategy will need to revolve around DLift. Scarra and Dyrus just need to stabilise game and be reasonably relevant and let Xpecial+DLift do their thing. But then you know, that's basically what CLG is all about. All you've done is substitute 4 people (whether you see them as upgrades or not) but it's basically CLG. And that makes me wonder. Does every team with DLift just turn out to be DLift + 4 because he's just so good that it just makes sense for teams to coalesce around him since he's one of the few truly international level players? I don't entirely agree with the assessment all NA teams with DL turn into CLG. While certainly, Doublelift gets a great deal of focus (and generally for good reason), game 2's team comp generally favored Scarra being the main carry/threat (were it not for the shenanigans top lane) after Urgot begins to fall off. Really it was ruined because that towerdive bot inner was just really questionable (Urgot Swaps in Ryze, Malph only ults Ryze, Janna pushes Ryze away back to turret????), and the unfortunate Game 2 baron steal (Baron knockback+Sona stun meant Saint wasn't in range for the W [+Smite, but he didn't smite anyways], while Nasus could Q+smite with a stunned up Urgot), but that wasn't the best of calls. Game 1 NA I would argue should've gone for a less predictable lane swap setup to try and get 1-2 winning lanes out of what would otherwise be 3 losing matchups (AD/Sup mid, Ryze bot) and tried to mind-game CN lane setups (CN simply read NA's swap top, because hey, if you have 3 losing matchups you know they're going to swap) to prevent the abysmal early lane experience all three would otherwise face (with Malph v. Rumble being the closest of the three). And the obviously stupid recall. In general, the NA Allstars team is alot less DLift dependent compared to CLG, it's just that Game 1 the FB top lane relieved quite abit of pressure for him to start farming despite the lane camping by Troll. If you watched the top lane, you'd see DLift started to freeze the CS gap and started bullying WX. Also, NA is comparatively more reliant on ADC/bot lanes than other regions, so AD centric play tends to occur more in NA team comps. Arguably, Scarra should've pulled up a larger lead mid in Game 2, but did fine (nothing exceptional however). Comparative to Game 1, Zed does better vs Ryze in lane then Diana because he gets a gap-close earlier (also energy/manaless for pushing against Ryze); you'd notice that in Game 2 Ryze could afford to start with a Blue Crystal vs Diana, while Scarra started with a cloth+5 Game 1 because of Zed threat. Pity considering some of the Diana plays he pulled off in LCS, but Game 2 was lost because of one bad call+towerdive+execution. Dyrus was behind both games, so I wouldn't fault him too much. In general, I would agree that NA needs to work on their timing/team coordination. Compared to some of CN's excellently polished map movements (Game 1 with all lanes pushed and a 5 man pincer on bot) and snap initiations, NA just had some questionable shotcalling Game 2 which meant they didn't close out the game sooner. | ||
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caelym
United States6421 Posts
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overt
United States9006 Posts
On May 25 2013 05:26 NeoIllusions wrote: Who honestly thinks Nyjacky is considerably better than scarra or Regi. Literally only Curse fanboys. Honestly if we're going to go outside of Regi (who's probably #1 AP mid in NA) and scarra I don't know why we'd jump to Nyjacky when mandatorycloud has a bigger champion pool and is capable of playing safe and making plays. It's not like it matters though. Nyjacky, Regi, scarra, mancloud or anyone else who plays AP mid in NA is no where near the level of Alex Ich, Ambition, Misaya, or even Toyz. None of the NA AP mids are even as good as the #2, #3, or possibly even #4 AP mids in other regions except for SEA. People give NA top laners a lot of shit but I seriously think that AP mid is by far NA's worst role. Dyrus not doing perfectly against PDD is acceptable. PDD is probably best top laner in the world (or at least in the top 3). I think it's cool though that Double+Xpecial seemed to be on the same level as the Chinese though. | ||
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Sufficiency
Canada23833 Posts
On May 25 2013 06:28 overt wrote: Literally only Curse fanboys. Honestly if we're going to go outside of Regi (who's probably #1 AP mid in NA) and scarra I don't know why we'd jump to Nyjacky when mandatorycloud has a bigger champion pool and is capable of playing safe and making plays. It's not like it matters though. Nyjacky, Regi, scarra, mancloud or anyone else who plays AP mid in NA is no where near the level of Alex Ich, Ambition, Misaya, or even Toyz. None of the NA AP mids are even as good as the #2, #3, or possibly even #4 AP mids in other regions except for SEA. People give NA top laners a lot of shit but I seriously think that AP mid is by far NA's worst role. Dyrus not doing perfectly against PDD is acceptable. PDD is probably best top laner in the world (or at least in the top 3). I think it's cool though that Double+Xpecial seemed to be on the same level as the Chinese though. Durys, Doublelift, and Xpecial played really good. Saint and scarra, however, played pretty bad. | ||
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