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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 25 2013 07:29 NeoIllusions wrote:
Zac/Malphite was not even used remotely to the potential that it has. Xpecial is a beast on Janna though.
I don't see how these strats were specific for CN though.
Counterplay against properly played Zac long-range initiation is very hard, especially without vision. I think it might even be on par with the threat of Annie Flash-TIbbers or Malphite Flash-Unstoppable Force. Except Zac doesn't need Flash to pull it off.
On May 25 2013 07:26 caelym wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 07:18 ketchup wrote:On May 25 2013 07:13 Mondeezy wrote:
Do you guys think NA will be able to recoup and get their thoughts together to advance tonight? I'd really like to see them move forward because they actually looked solid for the first 15 min. in game 2, but I'm not sure if Saint's attitude will allow him to admit the bad calls and enable them to work toward fixing those problems.
I know in an interview I saw Dlift said they put a lot of time into practicing for China with specific strats and everything, so I'm curious to see how well they practiced for the other teams. I believe StV also said the same thing in his interview yesterday. So, maybe some of you team orientated players in TL can help me with this. What does "practicing specific strats mean" in LoL? I hear it a lot, but it just doesn't make sense to me. The picks/bans I saw yesterday for NA weren't odd or any different from what they usually pick/ban. I also did not see any specific difference in their 1v1 roam that seemed to indicate anything was different. Would anyone be able to elaborate on what they mean when they say that? You really don't think NA's strategy and ban/pick were different from normal NA LCS? When was the last time you saw Zac/Malphite? or Urgot/Janna? "Practicing specific strats" means what you think it means. We practiced champion synergies and team comps. As for our match vs EU, NA needs to keep its head straight and make more rational calls. NA needs to keep composure and not make panic and knee-jerk plays. The stuff we practiced are very strong, and they work. Dumb ingame decisions lost us the match vs China.
I think perhaps some of the bias comes from SC, where strategies means more than just your unit composition. It also encompasses timings, build paths, positioning and thinking that influences the entirety of how you approach each and every game. While the picks were nice, I think the idea of "practising strategies" makes people think of more than just champion synergies and pick/ban.
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We worked on timings, positioning, movement, objectives, etc as well. I'm not to reveal them though. I chose those 2 examples because they're the most obvious.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 25 2013 07:39 caelym wrote:
We worked on timings, positioning, movement, objectives, etc as well. I'm not to reveal them though. I chose those 2 examples because they're the most obvious.
Fair enough. None of us really knows what goes on behind closed doors, it's good to have this insight from you.
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It's also hard for me to talk about because poor execution or decision making can make it look like nothing was prepared.
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United States37500 Posts
Nah, I'll probably review the Game 2 VODs later this weekend. Thanks for pointing it out.
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Just got home and start to watch the vods. Did anyone release any number of viewers for the first day yet?
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the 2nd game of NA vs LPL relied on snowballing. all their heroes and even their item builds were optimized for the early/mid game, and they executed it well.
the late game was problematic. nearly everyone falls off. janna is great at peel and disengage but doesn't have the same engage potential as sona, urgot not as good as a real ad carry (which also weakens janna to some extent, as peeling is not that great), volibear loses late, etc. that's acceptable as long as they follow through. in the mean time, LPL has a great lategame team with ryze, vayne, and nasus.
the dive on ryze was not a terrible decision in itself.
on china's side
-fantastic crescendo by xiaoxiao
-equally fantastic re-engage by pdd
-weixiao with great positioning to condemn DL under tower
on NA's side
-dyrus malphite ult on one
-scarra moonfall on one
-lack of wards to cover the initiation by PDD
-questionable monsoon by xpecial (and perhaps if jungle was warded, he would be able to save the monsoon to sweep away zac instead of blowing it on the crescendo.)
that withstanding, the uncontested baron was an even bigger issue. great warding helped xiaoxiao get another great crescendo on all 4 of NA, and they rode that to victory. arguably, they could've even won that teamfight if dyrus teleported earlier, but that was a warding/vision issue that allowed them to take baron in the first place.
it doesn't really make much sense to me to point the finger at individual players (whether to elevate them or make fun of them) as they clearly had planned roles and as a team they just failed to execute properly.
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United States37500 Posts
The irony of NA picking a late game team comp, couldn't make it past early game.
CN picks late game team comp, makes it to mid game, NA delivers on a silver platter.
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On May 25 2013 07:44 caelym wrote:
It's also hard for me to talk about because poor execution or decision making can make it look like nothing was prepared.
Thank you for answering! I'm not saying that the picks/bans were not different from what we see in the NA LCS. I just don't see what the difference was for this chinese team compared to if they were against any other international team. In my opinon that is partly due to the limited ban phase in LoL more than the team's preparation. I do not mean to make it sound as bad as it might sound. I apologize for that.
Overall, I was attempting to understand what a team works on as I have no real experience with such a thing. I play solo queue about 99% of the time, and even arranged games that I have the pleasure of playing in(once in a blue moon) are more about what my team wants to do rather than responding to the other team. I don't play ranked, so this harms my view as well.
I believe you answered my question though, and I understand that you can't go into more details due to obvious reasons(which is a shame). I was really just interested in seeing more information on how a team develops and plans their practices/strategies. I wouldn't mind responses from people who play ranked 5s/scrims though if anyone else wants to add in things!
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No need to apologize, I read your post in haste and misinterpreted it. If a team can't answer how they specifically prepared for the opposition, then something's wrong with their training.
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All your work doesn't matter if they can't even apply it during a real game. And to be honest, I don't see how scarra and saint spending hours daily trolling in solo queue helps them at all.
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On May 25 2013 07:42 MoonBear wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 07:39 caelym wrote:
We worked on timings, positioning, movement, objectives, etc as well. I'm not to reveal them though. I chose those 2 examples because they're the most obvious. Fair enough. None of us really knows what goes on behind closed doors, it's good to have this insight from you.
Hmmm I am pretty sure a lot of time were invested in preparations. I don't believe you can just put those 5 people in a team and be able to pull off those kinds of early-game tower dives.
At the end of the day, saint threw and scarra was playing like a robot.
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On May 25 2013 07:48 kainzero wrote:
the 2nd game of NA vs LPL relied on snowballing. all their heroes and even their item builds were optimized for the early/mid game, and they executed it well.
the late game was problematic. nearly everyone falls off. janna is great at peel and disengage but doesn't have the same engage potential as sona, urgot not as good as a real ad carry (which also weakens janna to some extent, as peeling is not that great), volibear loses late, etc. that's acceptable as long as they follow through. in the mean time, LPL has a great lategame team with ryze, vayne, and nasus.
the dive on ryze was not a terrible decision in itself.
on china's side
-fantastic crescendo by xiaoxiao
-equally fantastic re-engage by pdd
-weixiao with great positioning to condemn DL under tower
on NA's side
-dyrus malphite ult on one
-scarra moonfall on one
-lack of wards to cover the initiation by PDD
-questionable monsoon by xpecial (and perhaps if jungle was warded, he would be able to save the monsoon to sweep away zac instead of blowing it on the crescendo.)
that withstanding, the uncontested baron was an even bigger issue. great warding helped xiaoxiao get another great crescendo on all 4 of NA, and they rode that to victory. arguably, they could've even won that teamfight if dyrus teleported earlier, but that was a warding/vision issue that allowed them to take baron in the first place.
it doesn't really make much sense to me to point the finger at individual players (whether to elevate them or make fun of them) as they clearly had planned roles and as a team they just failed to execute properly.
I have to agree with you that it doesn't make sense to point fingers at individual players but I cannot disagree more with you in saying that the dive on ryze was not a terrible decision.
Obviously, with hindsight you can bring up all those points on both sides, but you have to look at it at that point in time and analyze the risk reward while taking into account the factors/probabilities just before the call was made. NA was ahead by a significant amount of gold (perhaps NA felt after having baron stolen, they 'felt' that the Chinese have pulled within them really close in terms of gold; but as spectators we know this is false and NA was still up by a large margin). There was absolutely no reason to make that dive. They had little to gain, doing a turret dive (swap ryze who is tanky, sona and zac ultimates up, they are baroned up) and everything to lose.
But the call wasn't just made randomly. There is a reason for that terrible call and I feel this is the true weakness of the NA scene - callers lacking game sense. If I recall correctly, NA was up by about ~7-8k gold at the time of baron, then when it was stolen + lost a tower or 2, they were still ahead by ~4k gold. But I believe saintvicious thought that after the baron steal, they were actually behind or Chinese had taken the lead. And it forced him into making a desperate call into turret diving in that situation.
It is really easy for us to look at a team that is up by x amount of gold and be like 'wow, they can't close because they are just bad and suck at it.' But it is extremely difficult in game, while the game is playing out, to judge where you are in terms of your advantage. Every team/shot caller can probably look at a match at any given point in time (towers, cs scores, kill scores, etc) and tell you who is ahead. The difference is that the Chinese and Koreans are so well practiced and under stand the game so well that they can make a judgement call about how big their advantage/deficit is and not just if they have one or not.
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It was fun to see china's home field advantage though.. super loud cheer for any china kills, while NA was ahead/make plays the stadium was dead silent.
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On May 25 2013 09:27 iKill[ShocK] wrote:
It was fun to see china's home field advantage though.. super loud cheer for any china kills, while NA was ahead/make plays the stadium was dead silent.
That was what happen in S2 final. WE vs CLG EU and iG vs CLG NA
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On May 25 2013 09:05 Inflexion wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 07:48 kainzero wrote:
the 2nd game of NA vs LPL relied on snowballing. all their heroes and even their item builds were optimized for the early/mid game, and they executed it well.
the late game was problematic. nearly everyone falls off. janna is great at peel and disengage but doesn't have the same engage potential as sona, urgot not as good as a real ad carry (which also weakens janna to some extent, as peeling is not that great), volibear loses late, etc. that's acceptable as long as they follow through. in the mean time, LPL has a great lategame team with ryze, vayne, and nasus.
the dive on ryze was not a terrible decision in itself.
on china's side
-fantastic crescendo by xiaoxiao
-equally fantastic re-engage by pdd
-weixiao with great positioning to condemn DL under tower
on NA's side
-dyrus malphite ult on one
-scarra moonfall on one
-lack of wards to cover the initiation by PDD
-questionable monsoon by xpecial (and perhaps if jungle was warded, he would be able to save the monsoon to sweep away zac instead of blowing it on the crescendo.)
that withstanding, the uncontested baron was an even bigger issue. great warding helped xiaoxiao get another great crescendo on all 4 of NA, and they rode that to victory. arguably, they could've even won that teamfight if dyrus teleported earlier, but that was a warding/vision issue that allowed them to take baron in the first place.
it doesn't really make much sense to me to point the finger at individual players (whether to elevate them or make fun of them) as they clearly had planned roles and as a team they just failed to execute properly. I have to agree with you that it doesn't make sense to point fingers at individual players but I cannot disagree more with you in saying that the dive on ryze was not a terrible decision. Obviously, with hindsight you can bring up all those points on both sides, but you have to look at it at that point in time and analyze the risk reward while taking into account the factors/probabilities just before the call was made. NA was ahead by a significant amount of gold (perhaps NA felt after having baron stolen, they 'felt' that the Chinese have pulled within them really close in terms of gold; but as spectators we know this is false and NA was still up by a large margin). There was absolutely no reason to make that dive. They had little to gain, doing a turret dive (swap ryze who is tanky, sona and zac ultimates up, they are baroned up) and everything to lose. But the call wasn't just made randomly. There is a reason for that terrible call and I feel this is the true weakness of the NA scene - callers lacking game sense. If I recall correctly, NA was up by about ~7-8k gold at the time of baron, then when it was stolen + lost a tower or 2, they were still ahead by ~4k gold. But I believe saintvicious thought that after the baron steal, they were actually behind or Chinese had taken the lead. And it forced him into making a desperate call into turret diving in that situation.
they had little to gain?
if they won that teamfight (which i think is not really a bad decision but rather, terrible execution by everyone) then they probably would've won the game.
they needed to fight. they were up against a team that would dominate them in the late game, and they might've won that fight if they played it correctly. they should've been able to get more than just ryze and they didn't. not enough people were caught in the combo.
The difference is that the Chinese and Koreans are so well practiced and under stand the game so well that they can make a judgement call about how big their advantage/deficit is and not just if they have one or not.
lol no. i've seen plenty of comebacks in Chinese games, even among top teams. best example off the top of my head is WE vs iG in week 6 of LPL.
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On May 25 2013 09:47 niukasu1990 wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 09:27 iKill[ShocK] wrote:
It was fun to see china's home field advantage though.. super loud cheer for any china kills, while NA was ahead/make plays the stadium was dead silent. That was what happen in S2 final. WE vs CLG EU and iG vs CLG NA
I felt really sorry for World Elite back then. They had won the series, and were forced to play non-stop with the crowd cheering on for CLG EU. It doesn't matter if CLG EU would have won the next twenty games in a row, World Elite had crushed them in a BO3 series, then were robbed of their victory due to technical issues, and from that moment on the games meant nothing. The psychological pressure, having to expose more strategies than you should because of the constant re-games, the crowd cheering for the enemy team despite the obvious injustice handed to you, and Riot forcing you to play for hours on end in the worst circumstances possible despite all the issues changed everything. I was very impressed with the members of World Elite for not making a huge deal out of the injustice they had been dealt with, and respect for that to this day.
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I knew asians were gonna win.
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51693 Posts
On May 25 2013 10:45 truemafia wrote:
I knew asians were gonna win.
koreans own white dudes - moon 2010
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EPT![[image loading]](http://i.imgur.com/F9fwQ9Mh.jpg)
