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United States37500 Posts
Frankly, NA All-Star became Doublelift + 4 yet again and that says two things to me. 1) Double is possibly the only NA player who can stand toe-to-toe with other international stars. 2) NA's other roles needs to step it up, even more than they've been trying now. I said earlier today that Game 2 is going to be a defining moment for NA and it is. Dyrus gets a bye in my book. His Malphite against PDD's Rumble might have been a poor showing but it's excusable due to the champion match up. Game 2, the kid was a champ. He took on so much lane pressure, managed to keep his inner turret up for the longest time and most importantly, he didn't die.
That leaves scarra and Saint. Where to start with these two.
Saint? Please read what CloudTemplar said about you.
scarra, buddy, I like you so much, but you've been under performing for so long. You're as cuddly as PDD but PDD plays with such drive and determination. With purpose. 1) Champion pool, really need to expand it asap. I don't necessarily mean mean you need to take up AD champs like Kha'Zix or Jayce but that would be the fast route to solving the problem. Start your own trend, WuKong mid. Otherwise, more AP champs (Nidalee, Ori, Syndra, etc) and fast. 2) Mechanically, you're sound but you remind me a lot like jiji in that you squander your advantages in lane. Scarra needs to know when and how to apply pressure when he's so far ahead.
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On May 25 2013 06:36 NeoIllusions wrote:
Saint? Please read what CloudTemplar said about you..
Link?
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To the people saying that NA is (heavily) favoured against EU tomorrow based on today's performance
Inven: What do you think about tomorrow's match?
Insec: I think Europe would win versus NA. It looked like Europe played a lot better than NA.
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United States37500 Posts
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On May 25 2013 06:43 AsnSensation wrote:To the people saying that NA is (heavily) favoured against EU tomorrow based on today's performance Show nested quote +Inven: What do you think about tomorrow's match?
Insec: I think Europe would win versus NA. It looked like Europe played a lot better than NA.
I want NA to win, I think NA is too underrated, but yeah. I don't think they're favored to win against EU. Diamond's gonna have so much more pressure than saint and while Dyrus can do fine against sOAZ and Double/Xpecial should win against pete/Edward (unless Edward goes ham) I don't think scarra can do much against Alex and Diamond pressure should turn even or winning lanes for NA into losing ones.
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On May 25 2013 03:01 Fionn wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 03:00 lefty wrote:
According to Reach, they only started practicing after they arrived in Shanghai. They practiced with the remaining CJ & Najin players with around 100 ping with spikes up to 200 - 300 and lost most of the games. Flame/Helios/Rapidstar/Hermes/Lustboy is a pretty scary team.
Lol, if they use a VPN, it is only 70ping.
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Do you guys think NA will be able to recoup and get their thoughts together to advance tonight? I'd really like to see them move forward because they actually looked solid for the first 15 min. in game 2, but I'm not sure if Saint's attitude will allow him to admit the bad calls and enable them to work toward fixing those problems.
I know in an interview I saw Dlift said they put a lot of time into practicing for China with specific strats and everything, so I'm curious to see how well they practiced for the other teams.
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On May 25 2013 06:20 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 00:52 KissBlade wrote:
On a side note, I love how people completely downrate NA's play which was in all honesty pretty good (especially compared to EU). Game 1 Saint stealing Baron and NA actually mounting a comeback was pretty cool to watch. (and his spectacular throw at the end =\) Game 2 was actually China not having answers for quite some time before some mechanics issues on a turret dive wrecked NA's momentum. People on TL are always going to underrate NA play (almost comparable to how Reddit overestimates them, tbh). Part of it is because NA in general is generally the weakest region, but also ex-SC2 mentality methinks. And I agree. Emotional roller-coaster made em better then the EU games (which were just a slow, steady slide with EU falling behind both games).
I don't know what subreddit you're looking at. The anti-NA circle jerk is one of the strongest that goes on there.
When it comes to All-stars, I just want to see NA win A game. To see them squander opportunities against China, which is largely considered the top region, is disheartening.
On May 25 2013 07:13 Mondeezy wrote:
Do you guys think NA will be able to recoup and get their thoughts together to advance tonight? I'd really like to see them move forward because they actually looked solid for the first 15 min. in game 2, but I'm not sure if Saint's attitude will allow him to admit the bad calls and enable them to work toward fixing those problems.
I know in an interview I saw Dlift said they put a lot of time into practicing for China with specific strats and everything, so I'm curious to see how well they practiced for the other teams.
I think they spent so much time preparing for China, to just fall flat on their face, kills all moral and momentum they could have. I know it killed it for me. =[
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On May 25 2013 05:48 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 05:41 Seuss wrote:
The first thing NA should do is stop picking Malphite for Dyrus. I haven't seen Malphite win a top lane matchup in months, and you can't really afford to just give away a lane like that in international competition. Dyrus did use Unstoppable Force on single targets way too often, but ultimately I think the pick had more to do with his poor performance than anything else. It's not the worst pick in the world, but when competing on the world stage you need every pick to be phenomenal. I don't know if you are being serious here. NA's downfall was not malphite or dyrus. That second game, malphite/dyrus played an amazing game. You do not see it because the casters don't really point out dyrus while in game. He was left alone to 1v3 for a large amount of time, and he came out ahead in a lot of the exchanges due to his play. The first game was shaping up to be similar before StV tried to gank that rumble. They were even in farm, the lane was frozen, and Jarvan IV was not even thinking about pressuring that lane. It was sincerely a terrible call from the person who called it.
Totally serious. I'm not saying the entire fiasco was because of the Malphite pick (you can go back through the thread and find numerous other issues I've mentioned), but since picks are at the start of a game that's the "first thing" NA can do better. I agree that SaintVicious really screwed things up for Dyrus in the first game and that Dyrus did his job admirably in the second game. Dyrus did the best he could with the pick he was given. I'm simply of the opinion that there are better champions for Dyrus specifically and in general.
They can't rely on Doublelift, not because Doublelift is bad but because a 1-dimensional team is easy to counter. Somebody else on the team needs to be a legitimate threat and Dyrus is the best candidate they have.
On May 25 2013 06:43 AsnSensation wrote:To the people saying that NA is (heavily) favoured against EU tomorrow based on today's performance Show nested quote +Inven: What do you think about tomorrow's match?
Insec: I think Europe would win versus NA. It looked like Europe played a lot better than NA.
It boggles my mind how many people thought EU looked worse than NA yesterday. The EU vs KR matches were clearly played at a higher level, even with the very questionable champion picks made by EU in game 2.
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United States37500 Posts
On May 25 2013 07:13 Mondeezy wrote:
Do you guys think NA will be able to recoup and get their thoughts together to advance tonight? I'd really like to see them move forward because they actually looked solid for the first 15 min. in game 2, but I'm not sure if Saint's attitude will allow him to admit the bad calls and enable them to work toward fixing those problems.
I know in an interview I saw Dlift said they put a lot of time into practicing for China with specific strats and everything, so I'm curious to see how well they practiced for the other teams.
Depends on saint and if he wants to bluepill throw again.
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On May 25 2013 07:13 Mondeezy wrote:
Do you guys think NA will be able to recoup and get their thoughts together to advance tonight? I'd really like to see them move forward because they actually looked solid for the first 15 min. in game 2, but I'm not sure if Saint's attitude will allow him to admit the bad calls and enable them to work toward fixing those problems.
I know in an interview I saw Dlift said they put a lot of time into practicing for China with specific strats and everything, so I'm curious to see how well they practiced for the other teams.
I believe StV also said the same thing in his interview yesterday. So, maybe some of you team orientated players in TL can help me with this. What does "practicing specific strats mean" in LoL? I hear it a lot, but it just doesn't make sense to me. The picks/bans I saw yesterday for NA weren't odd or any different from what they usually pick/ban. I also did not see any specific difference in their 1v1 roam that seemed to indicate anything was different. Would anyone be able to elaborate on what they mean when they say that?
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United States37500 Posts
Sounds like a question for Caelym.
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On May 25 2013 07:15 Seuss wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 05:48 ketchup wrote:On May 25 2013 05:41 Seuss wrote:
The first thing NA should do is stop picking Malphite for Dyrus. I haven't seen Malphite win a top lane matchup in months, and you can't really afford to just give away a lane like that in international competition. Dyrus did use Unstoppable Force on single targets way too often, but ultimately I think the pick had more to do with his poor performance than anything else. It's not the worst pick in the world, but when competing on the world stage you need every pick to be phenomenal. I don't know if you are being serious here. NA's downfall was not malphite or dyrus. That second game, malphite/dyrus played an amazing game. You do not see it because the casters don't really point out dyrus while in game. He was left alone to 1v3 for a large amount of time, and he came out ahead in a lot of the exchanges due to his play. The first game was shaping up to be similar before StV tried to gank that rumble. They were even in farm, the lane was frozen, and Jarvan IV was not even thinking about pressuring that lane. It was sincerely a terrible call from the person who called it. Totally serious. I'm not saying the entire fiasco was because of the Malphite pick (you can go back through the thread and find numerous other issues I've mentioned), but since picks are at the start of a game that's the "first thing" NA can do better. I agree that SaintVicious really screwed things up for Dyrus in the first game and that Dyrus did his job admirably in the second game. Dyrus did the best he could with the pick he was given. I'm simply of the opinion that there are better champions for Dyrus specifically and in general.
They can't rely on Doublelift, not because Doublelift is bad but because a 1-dimensional team is easy to counter. Somebody else on the team needs to be a legitimate threat and Dyrus is the best candidate they have.
I agree with this 100% then. Thanks for the clarification.
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Straight outta Johto18973 Posts
On May 25 2013 06:20 Lord Tolkien wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 05:27 MoonBear wrote:
Been talking with my staff a fair bit and felt like I should share some of the conversation I was having.
NA was rather disappointing today. On an individual skill level, I don't think NA is that screwed tbh. Like, they got outlaned a fair bit but it's not crushing. It's just their co-ordination and complete disrespect for timings and stuff. One of the most important skills to have is understanding what plays you can and should be making whether behind or ahead and NA isn't quite there yet. You see other teams suddenly making the "miracle" plays sometimes, but a lot of it is understanding what you can and cannot achieve and then creating a favourable situation for it to occur. For those of you that play Magic the Gathering, think of it like setting up a board state for the miracle top deck. Sure, you might have lucked out a bit, but Pros understand how to set up a board state for that top deck to be game winning, while other people would only get a decent play off and not the game reversal they need.
For NA, a lot of their strategy will need to revolve around DLift. Scarra and Dyrus just need to stabilise game and be reasonably relevant and let Xpecial+DLift do their thing.
But then you know, that's basically what CLG is all about. All you've done is substitute 4 people (whether you see them as upgrades or not) but it's basically CLG. And that makes me wonder. Does every team with DLift just turn out to be DLift + 4 because he's just so good that it just makes sense for teams to coalesce around him since he's one of the few truly international level players? I don't entirely agree with the assessment all NA teams with DL turn into CLG. While certainly, Doublelift gets a great deal of focus (and generally for good reason), game 2's team comp generally favored Scarra being the main carry/threat (were it not for the shenanigans top lane) after Urgot begins to fall off. Really it was ruined because that towerdive bot inner was just really questionable (Urgot Swaps in Ryze, Malph only ults Ryze, Janna pushes Ryze away back to turret????), and the unfortunate Game 2 baron steal (Baron knockback+Sona stun meant Saint wasn't in range for the W [+Smite, but he didn't smite anyways], while Nasus could Q+smite with a stunned up Urgot), but that wasn't the best of calls. Game 1 NA I would argue should've gone for a less predictable lane swap setup to try and get 1-2 winning lanes out of what would otherwise be 3 losing matchups (AD/Sup mid, Ryze bot) and tried to mind-game CN lane setups (CN simply read NA's swap top, because hey, if you have 3 losing matchups you know they're going to swap) to prevent the abysmal early lane experience all three would otherwise face (with Malph v. Rumble being the closest of the three). And the obviously stupid recall. In general, the NA Allstars team is alot less DLift dependent compared to CLG, it's just that Game 1 the FB top lane relieved quite abit of pressure for him to start farming despite the lane camping by Troll. If you watched the top lane, you'd see DLift started to freeze the CS gap and started bullying WX. Also, NA is comparatively more reliant on ADC/bot lanes than other regions, so AD centric play tends to occur more in NA team comps. Arguably, Scarra should've pulled up a larger lead mid in Game 2, but did fine (nothing exceptional however). Comparative to Game 1, Zed does better vs Ryze in lane then Diana because he gets a gap-close earlier (also energy/manaless for pushing against Ryze); you'd notice that in Game 2 Ryze could afford to start with a Blue Crystal vs Diana, while Scarra started with a cloth+5 Game 1 because of Zed threat. Pity considering some of the Diana plays he pulled off in LCS, but Game 2 was lost because of one bad call+towerdive+execution. Dyrus was behind both games, so I wouldn't fault him too much. In general, I would agree that NA needs to work on their timing/team coordination. Compared to some of CN's excellently polished map movements (Game 1 with all lanes pushed and a 5 man pincer on bot) and snap initiations, NA just had some questionable shotcalling Game 2 which meant they didn't close out the game sooner.
I disagree that DLift is not as important in the NA All-Star team than he is on CLG. While Scarra and Dyrus can provide threats that don't happen on CLG, the problem is that because their lanes are unable to take control, they become a far weaker threat than they can be. As a result, the strongest threat on the NA team becomes DLift which means that the team ends up being a case of playing around him. If your solo lane threats aren't strong enough and your jungle can't provide the pressure you need, then it makes little sense for them to drive the tempo in the mid-game. I felt this was particularly the case in Game 1. While you can say they were behind because of various reasons, I feel that it is because they are behind, regardless of the reason that means they rely on DLift having to carry more than his fair share so to speak.
On May 25 2013 07:16 NeoIllusions wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 07:13 Mondeezy wrote:
Do you guys think NA will be able to recoup and get their thoughts together to advance tonight? I'd really like to see them move forward because they actually looked solid for the first 15 min. in game 2, but I'm not sure if Saint's attitude will allow him to admit the bad calls and enable them to work toward fixing those problems.
I know in an interview I saw Dlift said they put a lot of time into practicing for China with specific strats and everything, so I'm curious to see how well they practiced for the other teams. Depends on saint and if he wants to bluepill throw again.
I am convinced NA is more than capable of beating EU. But I just don't know if they have the co-ordination and the mindset to pull it off.
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On May 25 2013 07:18 ketchup wrote:Show nested quote +On May 25 2013 07:13 Mondeezy wrote:
Do you guys think NA will be able to recoup and get their thoughts together to advance tonight? I'd really like to see them move forward because they actually looked solid for the first 15 min. in game 2, but I'm not sure if Saint's attitude will allow him to admit the bad calls and enable them to work toward fixing those problems.
I know in an interview I saw Dlift said they put a lot of time into practicing for China with specific strats and everything, so I'm curious to see how well they practiced for the other teams. I believe StV also said the same thing in his interview yesterday. So, maybe some of you team orientated players in TL can help me with this. What does "practicing specific strats mean" in LoL? I hear it a lot, but it just doesn't make sense to me. The picks/bans I saw yesterday for NA weren't odd or any different from what they usually pick/ban. I also did not see any specific difference in their 1v1 roam that seemed to indicate anything was different. Would anyone be able to elaborate on what they mean when they say that?
You really don't think NA's strategy and ban/pick were different from normal NA LCS? When was the last time you saw Zac/Malphite? or Urgot/Janna? "Practicing specific strats" means what you think it means. We practiced champion synergies and team comps.
As for our match vs EU, NA needs to keep its head straight and make more rational calls. NA needs to keep composure and not make panic and knee-jerk plays. The stuff we practiced are very strong, and they work. Dumb ingame decisions lost us the match vs China.
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On May 25 2013 06:36 NeoIllusions wrote:
Frankly, NA All-Star became Doublelift + 4 yet again and that says two things to me. 1) Double is possibly the only NA player who can stand toe-to-toe with other international stars. 2) NA's other roles needs to step it up, even more than they've been trying now. I said earlier today that Game 2 is going to be a defining moment for NA and it is. Dyrus gets a bye in my book. His Malphite against PDD's Rumble might have been a poor showing but it's excusable due to the champion match up. Game 2, the kid was a champ. He took on so much lane pressure, managed to keep his inner turret up for the longest time and most importantly, he didn't die.
That leaves scarra and Saint. Where to start with these two.
Saint? Please read what CloudTemplar said about you.
scarra, buddy, I like you so much, but you've been under performing for so long. You're as cuddly as PDD but PDD plays with such drive and determination. With purpose. 1) Champion pool, really need to expand it asap. I don't necessarily mean mean you need to take up AD champs like Kha'Zix or Jayce but that would be the fast route to solving the problem. Start your own trend, WuKong mid. Otherwise, more AP champs (Nidalee, Ori, Syndra, etc) and fast. 2) Mechanically, you're sound but you remind me a lot like jiji in that you squander your advantages in lane. Scarra needs to know when and how to apply pressure when he's so far ahead.
Nothing really more to say here. Think you are 100% right. Only thing I think is strange is how badly they played vs Thresh in game one. Felt like they had never played against a good thresh or people using a good thresh.
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On May 25 2013 05:26 NeoIllusions wrote:
Who honestly thinks Nyjacky is considerably better than scarra or Regi.
Not better, but different. Jacky has developed synergy with saint. Also better champ pool. Can hold out on mid picks til last few picks.
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United States37500 Posts
Zac/Malphite was not even used remotely to the potential that it has. Xpecial is a beast on Janna though.
I don't see how these strats were specific for CN though.
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On May 25 2013 07:29 NeoIllusions wrote:
Zac/Malphite was not even used remotely to the potential that it has. Xpecial is a beast on Janna though.
I don't see how these strats were specific for CN though.
Urgot/Janna is pretty durable as a duo against, as Monte Cristo calls them, China's gank squads.
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On May 25 2013 07:29 NeoIllusions wrote:
Zac/Malphite was not even used remotely to the potential that it has. Xpecial is a beast on Janna though.
I don't see how these strats were specific for CN though.
The first 15 minutes of game 2 is a good example of strategy tailored against China.
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EPT
