On November 25 2014 03:41 1godless wrote: I've been trying to make jungle mundo work but I can't, what's the secret chalice? I've been running atspd marks, flat armor seals, 6 cdr + 3 scaling mr glyphs, and spell vamp quints. For masteries I'm going 9-21 with what you would expect in defense and atspd, both feast masteries, and ad in the offensive tree. W>Q>W>E is my skill order.
After fooling around I think this works pretty well, no leash since customs:
gromp (smite)->wolves->raptors->red(smite)->krug but I generally end up dying to the krug. I have been jungling since before season one but I have no concept of how far I should get during my initial clear. Is 3 camps, 1 buff sufficient? Why must Riot change everything so much every season, jungle always gets so shaken up...
Anyone have thoughts on either my set up or route? If this is too champ specific I can move it to the Mundo thread
9/21 is what i run too, full AS except for 2 lifesteal quints (keeps you a bit healthier for that all important first run and it's not like 4% spell vamp is going to make much of a difference with your ridiculous regen lategame).
E-Q-W opening skill order, i've been maxing Q-E-W after that but not 100% sure that it's optimal, probably doesn't matter that much either way. you gotta start with E at rocks smiting as soon as they spawn, do red with E+Q, smite birds (start camp with 5-6s left on smite cd), run over and do wolves while you still have one more stun left from the rock buff.
after wolves you gotta regen some hp and wait for smite's cd by sweeping your blue side river for wards since you have the bird buff. with your 3rd smite you take down the toad easily and if things go perfectly you can do blue with like 5hp left but it's probably better to just back and clear it on your second run. might be able to do blue a little more safely with a 3rd LS quint that i don't own. i got more ip than i can use so i'll test that out today and maybe make a video.
i know waiting around for smite after wolves seems like a waste of time, but clearing river wards is a legit use of your time and you can still finish a tier 3 trailblazer item in ~9:30 if you do nothing but farm.
probably a good idea to ward the bush above red before you clear it to let you see a possible invade coming since you want to stay low to get maximum value from your E's missing health ratio. abusing lifesteal on the scuttle crab made things easier too.
things were close enough that an extra attack speed quint and mastery point with expose weakness might be better than 3 LS quints and feast.
i've never recorded or uploaded anything to youtube before so if there are any details i messed up on (volume or whatever) i'd appreciate some feedback.
Been running 2x AS 1x LS quint, 3x AS 6xAD red, armor and scaling MR. Not sure on the lifesteal rune, another AS quint may be better, along with more AD. So much AS because devourer is awesome.
Tried both the onhit and the farming smite. If you want to play bullet nocturne, onhit smite is amazing. If you want to fill a more support/tank role, I would just go with the farm smite.
After devourer I've tried ghostblade(good), botrk(also good), and wits(also good). Ghostblade probably does the most raw damage including the active/movement, but wits/blade are both better options for survivability/clearing jungle.
Haven't tried to build a tank item after devourer yet because I've been teambuildering against silvers/golds, and quite frankly I didn't need the defensive stats when I can kill people in seconds. I would imagine that devourer alone wouldn't be enough damage after midgame if you weren't fed, although getting a sunfire for a bit extra damage and tankiness wouldn't be too bad.
For Vi, Nightblue recommends Warrior -> Bruta/Hexdrinker -> Trinity -> Tank, but I have no idea how he's getting enough gold to make that build work. Frankly, in my games, even when I'm ahead, anything more ambitious than Warrior -> Sunfire usually results in me exploding in team fights. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad at the champion, but I just don't really see how building so heavily into damage works unless you get really fed.
Mundo always go low in the jungle when it isn't s2 "AoE down all the camps" jungle, so I don't see any route that puts you as low as 10 HP reasonable, and more importantly not smiting red seems like an absurd waste of HP considering how hard it hits and the sustain it grants. Mundo also always maxes E last because it doesn't grant that much benefits, and although his autos hurt like hell when he can get them in, most of his damage is actually sunfire/W/cleavers because he doesn't get that many autos in a fight.
In s3 putting 2-3 points in W to clear the little monsters faster then maxing Q was better than straight-up maxing W because the camps' HP had been moved more toward the big creep. I'll run some tests, but the more important thing with Mundo is making sure he can get both the krugs and red smites and can stay healthy, because until he gets enough levels for his clear speed/regen to offset the damage he takes he struggles and can't duel people either, meaning a Mundo that gets behind on his level 6 is a very sad Mundo.
Obviously all these caveats are useless if Mundo can do krugs (smite) -> raptors -> red (smite) just fine. Probably needs something like WQ skill order so that he kills raptors faster, E is actually less single-target damage until he loses a bunch of HP because of his low AS, only upside is lower cost (which may be offset by the additional damage taken).
When you fight raptors, do you kill the small ones first to reduce damage or focus on the big one?
As for Vi in s3 she could do Lizard -> brutalizer -> tanky fine as long as she didn't fall behind (and even then if the laning phase was going to last she could still delay tank a bit nd try to catch up with the higher kill power).
On November 25 2014 03:54 jaybrundage wrote: Yea Scip it seems attack speed isn't the way to go any more to get faster jungle clears as they changed how dmg is applied from machete. Is a better way AD. Or perhaps lifesteal so you can sustain better and because of that not have to go back as much and you clear faster?
About atk spe it depends on what jugnler you're playing. They're the best on Yi, atk spe quints+AD marks seem to be the best on Skarner, but yes they are relatively worse than they used to be.
Don't get obssessed with smiting red buff. Idk if Mundo needs it, but both Rammus and Yi who can start golems (although Rammus prefers Frog a little bit) just smite golems and go red->wraiths->wolves->blue afterwards.
On November 25 2014 04:12 MidnightGladius wrote: I've personally had more difficulty starting wight than starting golems, even champs that I thought would want blue (Hecarim, Amumu) aren't able to full clear after a wight start, whereas they finish by 4:15 from a golems start. I recognize that my runes/masteries/route are likely suboptimal, and that this may be causing the difference in our experiences. Could you describe your setup and route for a successful wight-starting jungler?
Wight start is way faster for those jungler, killing only 5 camps on the first clear is fine, Amumu can clear 5 camps starting from wight in about 3:30 IIRC.
alaric like i said when discussing shyvana you're overestimating the importance of the red buff heal, you take more than 20% of your hp in extra damage from the birds by not smiting them. the first level of W on mundo is pretty much useless in the new jungle, it might be more dps, but it just costs too much hp. your post made me realize that an EQQ or EQE skill order actually gives a safer clear than what i showed in the video.
there is probably some merit to maxing W second though because after you get some levels and trailblazer things are pretty much easy mode.
On November 25 2014 22:21 chalice wrote: alaric like i said when discussing shyvana you're overestimating the importance of the red buff heal, you take more than 20% of your hp in extra damage from the birds by not smiting them. the first level of W on mundo is pretty much useless in the new jungle, it might be more dps, but it just costs too much hp. your post made me realize that an EQQ or EQE skill order actually gives a safer clear than what i showed in the video.
there is probably some merit to maxing W second though because after you get some levels and trailblazer things are pretty much easy mode.
Why do you take E over Q at level 1? Both provide single target damage but Q clearly deals more.
its not about what does the most damage, its what has the best damage to hp cost ratio. i tested both E and Q starts with lifesteal, spell vamp, armor, and i think full attack speed quints. E first with lifesteal gave me the healthiest clear because of the synergy between attack speed runes and a 40 ad buff and because level 1 E has only half the health cost of level 1 Q.
On November 26 2014 03:35 chalice wrote: its not about what does the most damage, its what has the best damage to hp cost ratio. i tested both E and Q starts with lifesteal, spell vamp, armor, and i think full attack speed quints. E first with lifesteal gave me the healthiest clear because of the synergy between attack speed runes and a 40 ad buff and because level 1 E has only half the health cost of level 1 Q.
Level 1 E has the same health cost as level 1 Q unless you miss the cleaver. E gives you 40~50 AD, you have 0.74 AS in your video, so you get less than 2 hp/sec from the extra lifesteal. The big golems is hitting you for 49 hp/attack the small one for 22 hp/attack. If the extra damage from Q mean you can one less auto from the big golem, it should be healthier with Q first.
yeah i was unaware of the heal on landing the Q but it doesn't matter, i didn't choose my skill order by doing some half-ass math and proclaiming E to be superior. i guess maybe the real reason E works better is because it starts at like 160 damage and goes up as you lose health, while Q starts at 216 damage and goes down rapidly to 80 damage as the monster loses health, i mean it only does 81 damage on the small krug at full hp.
i don't understand why you're arguing at me with theorycraft when you can just take 15 minutes and load up a couple custom games to check if you think i made a mistake.
Sorry if I ask this here, but I think it's the most relevant thread. I wanna play jungle and I'm about to hit 30: which runes would you suggest me buying, to have some good jungle rune pages?
Also, which ones are most have jungle champions? So far I have Rengar, Lee Sin, Xin Zhao, Warwick.
On November 26 2014 20:41 SoSexy wrote: Sorry if I ask this here, but I think it's the most relevant thread. I wanna play jungle and I'm about to hit 30: which runes would you suggest me buying, to have some good jungle rune pages?
Also, which ones are most have jungle champions? So far I have Rengar, Lee Sin, Xin Zhao, Warwick.
you'd be perfectly fine playing the champions you have, i haven't played rengar or lee in the new jungle but WW is literally the #1 jungler right now, xin zhao is strong, and i wouldn't be surprised if rengar was in a pretty good spot too.
for runes the most basic widely useful rune page is probably attack speed reds and quints, armor yellows, and mr or mr per level blues. 6 cdr or cdr per level blues for 5% or 10% cdr are nice on a lot of champions as well, especially xin and i think rengar. for someone like rengar you'd at least want ad reds and you should have them for when you play adc anyway.
is twisted fate the champ to take advantage of a ranged ad's advantage in clearing the new jungle? devourer fits him pretty well and with gold cards and his ult his ganks are probably miles ahead of anyone besides twitch. i think i might even be able to consistently pick a gold card if i only have to do it while walking unseen into a lane or hiding in a bush.
It would be cool if you included some source posts in the tips (for example, a couple of sources of WW imba posts, lets you check time etc). If you have the time ofc.
On November 25 2014 11:52 Cheap0 wrote: For Vi, Nightblue recommends Warrior -> Bruta/Hexdrinker -> Trinity -> Tank, but I have no idea how he's getting enough gold to make that build work. Frankly, in my games, even when I'm ahead, anything more ambitious than Warrior -> Sunfire usually results in me exploding in team fights. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad at the champion, but I just don't really see how building so heavily into damage works unless you get really fed.
Even in the old jungle id always bruta/lizard elder, if youre getting ahead trinity will make sure you destroy any squishy in a hit or two, if youre behind randuins and tanky is probably better
i've never been able to make it work in the past, but between his passive and %hp damage on his W, fizz's first clear in the new jungle is very comfortable
On November 25 2014 03:41 1godless wrote: I've been trying to make jungle mundo work but I can't, what's the secret chalice? I've been running atspd marks, flat armor seals, scaling mr glyphs, and spell vamp quints. For masteries I'm going 9-21 with what you would expect in defense and atspd, both feast masteries, and ad in the offensive tree. W>Q>W>E is my skill order.
After fooling around I think this works pretty well, no leash since customs:
gromp (smite)->wolves->raptors->red(smite)->krug but I generally end up dying to the krug. I have been jungling since before season one but I have no concept of how far I should get during my initial clear. Is 3 camps, 1 buff sufficient? Why must Riot change everything so much every season, jungle always gets so shaken up...
Anyone have thoughts on either my set up or route? If this is too champ specific I can move it to the Mundo thread
Most people go 0 30 0 on mundo 5% attack speed and a puny 4 damage just ain't worth much. Especially if you consider his damage steroid. If you want to take less damage kite camps to take fewer hits and get abilities of cool down.
On November 25 2014 11:52 Cheap0 wrote: For Vi, Nightblue recommends Warrior -> Bruta/Hexdrinker -> Trinity -> Tank, but I have no idea how he's getting enough gold to make that build work. Frankly, in my games, even when I'm ahead, anything more ambitious than Warrior -> Sunfire usually results in me exploding in team fights. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad at the champion, but I just don't really see how building so heavily into damage works unless you get really fed.
Even in the old jungle id always bruta/lizard elder, if youre getting ahead trinity will make sure you destroy any squishy in a hit or two, if youre behind randuins and tanky is probably better
Haven't really tried Vi in the new jungle. In the old I basically went lizard, TF,FH, 2 of SV/BV/rand/warmogs +shoes every game. Nobody could stand up to me unless team fed like crazy. Tri force is so good on vi because u can proc it on cd until any squishy is dead. She uses all stats on it well. You can build it in different orders depending on what you need first but usually get the hammer.
On November 25 2014 11:52 Cheap0 wrote: For Vi, Nightblue recommends Warrior -> Bruta/Hexdrinker -> Trinity -> Tank, but I have no idea how he's getting enough gold to make that build work. Frankly, in my games, even when I'm ahead, anything more ambitious than Warrior -> Sunfire usually results in me exploding in team fights. I dunno, maybe I'm just bad at the champion, but I just don't really see how building so heavily into damage works unless you get really fed.
Even in the old jungle id always bruta/lizard elder, if youre getting ahead trinity will make sure you destroy any squishy in a hit or two, if youre behind randuins and tanky is probably better
Haven't really tried Vi in the new jungle. In the old I basically went lizard, TF,FH, 2 of SV/BV/rand/warmogs +shoes every game. Nobody could stand up to me unless team fed like crazy. Tri force is so good on vi because u can proc it on cd until any squishy is dead. She uses all stats on it well. You can build it in different orders depending on what you need first but usually get the hammer.
I'd almost always grab sheen first, you can absolutely decimate squishes esp early game with the sheen proc its fucking unreal esp if you don't need the extra hp from phage imo. My build was pretty much always
Lizard/Bruta/TF(if big)/situational tanky items. depending on how fed i was/how our team was doing. I personally really value 40% cdr on her, seems so strong
EPT
